ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Colorado cases , Jon-Benet Ramsay , murder cases , unsolved crimes

Reply
Old 23rd September 2016, 02:53 PM   #161
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,259
the handwriting of the note

Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
More absurd than the notion of a stranger drafting a three-page ransom note at the scene with Patsy's pen and paper in what strongly resembles her handwriting, and hiding the body of the "kidnap" victim in a hard-to-find corner of the basement, and leaving no physical evidence of a break-in or of his presence anywhere? More absurd than that?
Bob001,

I am rereading the chapters in John Douglas and Mark Olshaker's book, "Law and Disorder." They said that three handwriting experts excluded Patsy, and the fourth thought her unlikely as writer of the note, but did not rule it out.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2016, 03:04 PM   #162
Samson
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,051
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
More absurd than the notion of a stranger drafting a three-page ransom note at the scene with Patsy's pen and paper in what strongly resembles her handwriting, and hiding the body of the "kidnap" victim in a hard-to-find corner of the basement, and leaving no physical evidence of a break-in or of his presence anywhere? More absurd than that?
If she was still alive when finally killed , I will continue to believe an intruder did this crime. There was a lot of love and energy expended in raising this child, and the reaction on discovering an injured child for any reason will be that which all parents share in common, keep it alive.
Occam's razor implores we find an explanation that does not violate this evolutionary urge. That explanation is difficult, but less so than the alternative.
IMO.
Samson is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2016, 03:13 PM   #163
Vortigern99
Sorcerer Supreme
 
Vortigern99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
More absurd than the notion of a stranger drafting a three-page ransom note at the scene with Patsy's pen and paper in what strongly resembles her handwriting, and hiding the body of the "kidnap" victim in a hard-to-find corner of the basement, and leaving no physical evidence of a break-in or of his presence anywhere? More absurd than that?
In order to conclude that "no physical evidence of a break-in or of [an intruder's] presence anywhere" in the Ramsay house has to ignore the hand print, the foot print, the unknown male DNA under the deceased's nails, and the ransom note, which has been determined by credible experts not to have been written by a family member.

You may have your own reasons for disputing each piece of that evidence as conclusive, but to assert that there is no physical evidence is entirely inaccurate.
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix
Vortigern99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2016, 05:14 PM   #164
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
In order to conclude that "no physical evidence of a break-in or of [an intruder's] presence anywhere" in the Ramsay house has to ignore the hand print, the foot print, the unknown male DNA under the deceased's nails, and the ransom note, which has been determined by credible experts not to have been written by a family member.
1) An old Rocky Mountain News article states that the hand print was eventually identified as that of Melinda Ramsey and that the Ramsey's attorney conceded that this was the case.
2) There's no way to date the shoe print. Melinda Ramsey was in Georgia at the time of the murder, so her palm print was old. Why then would we have any reason to have any certainty that the footprint was made the day of the murder? I've found a number of sites that state that Burke stated that he had owned shoes from the brand of shoe (the logo was clearly visible), though none of the sites are authoritative.
3) The amount of DNA was extremely small, not even enough to get a full profile. Not what would be expected if it can from trying to escape from an assailant. No one in this conversation seems to know how long foreign DNA under fingernails can last, so we can't date it.
4) Other credible experts have determined that it was compatible with Patsy's handwriting, and it has been noted that when Patsy was asked to write parts of the text of the ransom note she wrote out "one hundred eighteen thousand dollars" rather than writing "$118,000". I can find claims from so-called handwriting experts that John Ramsey wrote the ransom note, though none of the experts used in the official investigation believed this.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan



Last edited by TellyKNeasuss; 23rd September 2016 at 05:26 PM.
TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd September 2016, 08:37 PM   #165
Elagabalus
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,868
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
4) Other credible experts have determined that it was compatible with Patsy's handwriting, and it has been noted that when Patsy was asked to write parts of the text of the ransom note she wrote out "one hundred eighteen thousand dollars" rather than writing "$118,000". I can find claims from so-called handwriting experts that John Ramsey wrote the ransom note, though none of the experts used in the official investigation believed this.
This is one of those things. Did they tell Patsy to write it out or subtly imply that she should copy what was written? She has already seen the note.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 01:53 AM   #166
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
I don't like the way Governor Owens is still shooting his mouth off about the Ramsey case. Governor Owens does not have a judicial mind. In my opinion. there needs to be a full investigation of the alibi of Governor Owens that night and why he is so keen to pin the blame on the Ramseys. Governor Owens must cooperate with this interrogation.

The father of Fleet White was living at the time at Aspen, Colorado which is a fashionable resort in Colorado. It's a short drive to Boulder. The father of Fleet White has been proved to have been involved in child prostitution, and arranging sex and cocaine parties in the past for the elite. Fleet White has been proved to have known the mother of Nancy Krebs who was known to be involved in child prostitution, though Fleet White denied that at first. Nancy Krebs said her mother was at a party in Boulder where JonBenet was murdered.The Boulder police and FBI were only interested in the Ramseys as suspects. It's like murder suspects in India get off scot free.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 02:11 AM   #167
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
This is one of those things. Did they tell Patsy to write it out or subtly imply that she should copy what was written? She has already seen the note.
Dusak is, or was, a document examiner with the US Secret Service. He reported that there is no evidence to indicate that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

Dusak wasn't paid by the Ramseys. The two Ramsey experts were Lloyd Cunningham and Howard Rile. If Dusak was being bribed by the Ramseys I would be very surprised. That's most unlikely.

The Boulder police, or CBI experts, were Ubowski, Speckin, Alford, and Dusak. None of them reported that a Ramsey wrote the ransom note. They were some of the top experts in America. Ubowski did say he had his doubts, but he would be unwilling to testify in court that Patsy wrote the ransom note. They examined the original ransom note, unlike the other so-called handwriting experts.

How about checking the handwriting of Priscilla White?

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 24th September 2016 at 02:19 AM.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 03:03 AM   #168
banquetbear
Graduate Poster
 
banquetbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,485
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Apparently you are not aware that there are unsolved crimes. Evidence that a crime was committed does not necessarily mean that there's evidence of who committed the crime.
...of course there are unsolved crimes.

You said "experts" found evidence of prior abuse. Abuse is a crime, don't you agree?

So the police did zero investigative work into this prior abuse? They didn't try and find out who the abuser was?

Quote:
I think that the ex-chief was trying to make a point about how strange it was for an intruder to have left a ransom note and also to have left the body where it was likely to be found before the ransom was paid. Either the intruder was stupid or the ransom note was meant to be a diversion.
"Strange" is not evidence. Strange things happen all the time. It is irresponsible for the "ex-chief" to be making points like this.
banquetbear is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 04:48 AM   #169
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't like the way Governor Owens is still shooting his mouth off about the Ramsey case. Governor Owens does not have a judicial mind. In my opinion. there needs to be a full investigation of the alibi of Governor Owens that night and why he is so keen to pin the blame on the Ramseys. Governor Owens must cooperate with this interrogation.

The father of Fleet White was living at the time at Aspen, Colorado which is a fashionable resort in Colorado. It's a short drive to Boulder. The father of Fleet White has been proved to have been involved in child prostitution, and arranging sex and cocaine parties in the past for the elite. Fleet White has been proved to have known the mother of Nancy Krebs who was known to be involved in child prostitution, though Fleet White denied that at first. Nancy Krebs said her mother was at a party in Boulder where JonBenet was murdered.The Boulder police and FBI were only interested in the Ramseys as suspects. It's like murder suspects in India get off scot free.
You left out the housekeeper.

You also left out that Nancy Krebs claimed that John Ramsey was a close family friend.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan



Last edited by TellyKNeasuss; 24th September 2016 at 05:31 AM.
TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 05:10 AM   #170
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...of course there are unsolved crimes.

You said "experts" found evidence of prior abuse. Abuse is a crime, don't you agree?

So the police did zero investigative work into this prior abuse? They didn't try and find out who the abuser was?
Do you know for a fact that they didn't investigate this?

Quote:
"Strange" is not evidence. Strange things happen all the time. It is irresponsible for the "ex-chief" to be making points like this.
Never said that it was "evidence". But it's an item that does seem more likely to have occurred if the "kidnapping" was faked to try to throw off investigators than if it was a legitimate attempt to get ransom money.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 05:25 AM   #171
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
If she was still alive when finally killed , I will continue to believe an intruder did this crime. There was a lot of love and energy expended in raising this child, and the reaction on discovering an injured child for any reason will be that which all parents share in common, keep it alive.
Occam's razor implores we find an explanation that does not violate this evolutionary urge. That explanation is difficult, but less so than the alternative.
IMO.
Occam's Razor does no such thing. Parental killing of children is not terribly uncommon.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 06:17 AM   #172
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,259
Persistence of fingernail DNA; DNA contamination

"In a study involving deliberate scratching of another individual (n = 30), 33% of individuals had a foreign DNA profile beneath their fingernails from which the person they scratched could not be excluded as the source; however when sampling occurred ∼6 h after the scratching event, only 7% retained the foreign DNA." From the abstract of a 2012 study.

Here is a link to more information on the DNA. Taking the two profiles on the left versus right nails as a given, I would point out that if the nail clippers had not been cleaned properly, the possibility of accidental transfer of one profile unrelated to a crime should not be ruled out (I seem to recall that DNA can be transferred during autopsies and even via fingerprint brushes). The BBC reported on a case in an article from 2014, which involved inadvertent DNA transfer due to nail cuttings many years earlier. However, with two profiles in the Ramsey, that occurrence seems less likely. Here is a link to a brief but informative article on cold case fingernail DNA.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 24th September 2016 at 06:29 AM. Reason: added last sentence and link
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 06:31 AM   #173
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,526
Quote:
6 h after the scratching event, only 7% retained the foreign DNA.
What about people who are dead for those 6 hours?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 06:38 AM   #174
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,259
cold case from Santa Clara

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What about people who are dead for those 6 hours?
William Parcher,

DNA can persist for many years. Consider this case from the last link I provided: "For example, in 1985 a woman’s body was found in a dumpster in Santa Clara County. Between then and now the investigation led to no significant leads to the offender. However, with new technology the local crime laboratory was able to develop the DNA profile from the victim’s fingernails in 2010. The DNA matched an already convicted offender who was not previously linked to the victim. This led to his arrest."
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 06:46 AM   #175
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,526
Let me ask the question a different way. Were the test subjects allowed to use their hands for those 6 hours, or were their hands immobilized as if they were dead?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 07:14 AM   #176
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The Boulder police, or CBI experts, were Ubowski, Speckin, Alford, and Dusak. None of them reported that a Ramsey wrote the ransom note. They were some of the top experts in America. Ubowski did say he had his doubts, but he would be unwilling to testify in court that Patsy wrote the ransom note. They examined the original ransom note, unlike the other so-called handwriting experts.
Ubowski was quoted in The Denver Post as saying "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey." Is this what you mean by "doubts"?

Quote:
How about checking the handwriting of Priscilla White?
I've seen reports, attributed to one of the investigators, Steve Thomas, that said that 73 people had their handwriting checked.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 07:21 AM   #177
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,259
normal hand washing, etc.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Let me ask the question a different way. Were the test subjects allowed to use their hands for those 6 hours, or were their hands immobilized as if they were dead?
Good question. They did their normal activities, but they kept a log.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 08:15 AM   #178
Vortigern99
Sorcerer Supreme
 
Vortigern99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 7,905
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
1) An old Rocky Mountain News article states that the hand print was eventually identified as that of Melinda Ramsey and that the Ramsey's attorney conceded that this was the case.
2) There's no way to date the shoe print. Melinda Ramsey was in Georgia at the time of the murder, so her palm print was old. Why then would we have any reason to have any certainty that the footprint was made the day of the murder? I've found a number of sites that state that Burke stated that he had owned shoes from the brand of shoe (the logo was clearly visible), though none of the sites are authoritative.
3) The amount of DNA was extremely small, not even enough to get a full profile. Not what would be expected if it can from trying to escape from an assailant. No one in this conversation seems to know how long foreign DNA under fingernails can last, so we can't date it.
4) Other credible experts have determined that it was compatible with Patsy's handwriting, and it has been noted that when Patsy was asked to write parts of the text of the ransom note she wrote out "one hundred eighteen thousand dollars" rather than writing "$118,000". I can find claims from so-called handwriting experts that John Ramsey wrote the ransom note, though none of the experts used in the official investigation believed this.
Given all of this, to conclude that there was "no physical evidence of a break-in or of [an intruder's] presence anywhere" in the Ramsay house, as you did, is inaccurate.

One may dispute each piece of that evidence as conclusive, but to assert that there is "no physical evidence" is entirely inaccurate. What are you not getting about this?
__________________
"I'm 'willing to admit' any fact that can be shown to be evidential and certain." -- Vortigern99

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix
Vortigern99 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 08:27 AM   #179
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Ubowski was quoted in The Denver Post as saying "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey." Is this what you mean by "doubts"?

I've seen reports, attributed to one of the investigators, Steve Thomas, that said that 73 people had their handwriting checked.
The Denver Post has always been very biased against the Ramseys. It's probably because their advertising department is a bit too close to Lockheed Martin sex parties for clients. You need to read the Boulder Daily Camera for a fair and just explanation of the Ramsey case.

Personally, I don't think the housekeeper, or Merv the Perv Pugh are all that relevant to the Ramsey case.

It's true that Nancy Krebs mistakenly thought in her simple mind that John Ramsey was involved. That's probably why Lin Wood never pressed the point at the time. I suppose his job was just to defend the Ramseys. The point is that Nancy Krebs said that JonBenet was murdered at a sex party in Boulder and that Fleet White and her mother were involved. It should have been further investigated. I find it incredible that Beckner is still convinced the Ramseys did it, and nobody else. It's bad police work. No wonder innocent people get convicted in America.

As an old English law book once said:

"The commonest mistake made by those inexperienced in weighing evidence is to reject the whole of a story because the witness who told it has made mistakes, or even lied, as to part."
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 08:27 AM   #180
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Handwriting analysis aside, there are a number of interesting things related to the ransom note:
- the demanded ransom matched John Ramsey's bonus
- while the salutation was "Mr. Ramsey", in the body of the note Mr. Ramsey is addressed as "john" and in increasing frequency as the note progresses and takes on a more personal tone
- allusions are made to Mr. Ramsey's background (e.g., "use your southern common sense")
- the note expressed a concern for Mr. Ramsey's welfare ("the delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be well-rested")
- the note curiously instructed Mr. Ramsey to bring an "attache" to the bank rather than the more common "briefcase" and then mentioned "law enforcement countermeasures" rather than the more common "police procedures", after earlier misspelling "business" AND "scrutiny"
- the author returned the notepad to the drawer after writing the ransom note
- the note specifically stated that JonBenet would be killed if the Ramseys talk to anyone ("If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.") but the Ramseys allowed a number of friends to come to their house
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan



Last edited by TellyKNeasuss; 24th September 2016 at 08:29 AM.
TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 08:41 AM   #181
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
To my mind the ransom note points to Fleet and Priscilla White. There are clever criminals in this world and many of them are definitely bad.

It's true that Epstein was qualified to say that Patsy wrote the note, but he never examined the original ransom note, or the original exemplars. That's against the rules of evidence and procedures. The matter is discussed at the Judge Carnes verdict on the internet if anybody is interested.

This is some background about what Ubowski thought about the ransom note from the internet:

Chester A. Ubowski
Ubowski Findings

"Indications" Patsy May Have Written RN. Some of Ubowski's preliminary findings were revealed in the affidavit used as justification for the Charlevoix search warrant. According to affiant Jane Harmer, Ubowski provided Detective Linda Arndt the following information: "The analysis of the handwriting samples obtained from Patsy Ramsey showed "indications" which suggest that Patsy Ramsey may have written the reported ransom note."

Evidence Falls Short. Later in the affidavit, Harmer further states "He determined that there is evidence which indicates the ransom note may have been written by Patricia Ramsey but "the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion."

Full Range of Handwriting Sought. Affiant Harmer also stated: "It would be helpful to obtain additional historical samples of Patsy Ramsey’s writings so that a more conclusive determination could be made on the analysis of her handwriting compared to the handwriting contained in the reported ransom note. CBI Agent Ubowski informed Detective Arndt that samples of Patsy’s handwriting which had been completed prior to December 26, 1996 might not include or contain any elements of distortion, attempts to disguise handwriting, or nervousness.

Agent Ubowski further stated that these handwriting samples would help to “display a full range of the variation of the writer.” CBI Agent Ubowski had been present when a third handwriting sample had been obtained from Patsy Ramsey on February 28, 1997. The handwriting was completed in a standard block style. A REDACTION APPEARING TO BE A SINGLE SENTENCE APPEARS HERE.

Agent Ubowski stated that the handwriting samples obtained from Patsy do not suggest the full range of her handwriting.” Harmer noted that "Detective Arndt said that approximately 16 pages of handwriting have been provided by Patsy Ramsey to the Boulder Police Department to date."

Carnes Opinion. "Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note. (SMF P 197; PSMF P 197.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14)."
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 09:04 AM   #182
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,526
Quote:
To my mind the ransom note points to Fleet and Priscilla White.
Then the Ramseys would have suspected that as well? Did they announce their suspicion to the police?
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 09:14 AM   #183
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Vortigern99 View Post
Given all of this, to conclude that there was "no physical evidence of a break-in or of [an intruder's] presence anywhere" in the Ramsay house, as you did, is inaccurate.

One may dispute each piece of that evidence as conclusive, but to assert that there is "no physical evidence" is entirely inaccurate. What are you not getting about this?
There are only 2 pieces of evidence under discussion: the DNA and the foot print (I think that the reports that the hand print was from John Ramsey's daughter are reliable), so it's difficult to argue that the probability of both occurring for innocent reasons is so small as to make it unlikely that they happened by chance.

In particularly, the shoe print evidence is very iffy. AFAIK, it was not possible to narrow the date range for the print, so there are all sorts of possibilities. As I mentioned in another post, there is even the possibility that Burke Ramsey owned Hi-Tech shoes (perhaps not at the time of the murder). And there is the possibility of contamination: reportedly, Hi-Tech shoes were popular amongst police officers.

If you saw a dent in my car and knew that there had been an accident on a street that I drove on, would you say that there was "physical evidence" that I was involved in that accident?
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan



Last edited by TellyKNeasuss; 24th September 2016 at 09:23 AM.
TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 09:34 AM   #184
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Then the Ramseys would have suspected that as well? Did they announce their suspicion to the police?
The Ramseys announced their suspicions of the Whites in their depositions as well as their suspicion of Chris Wolf in their book on the case. I can't provide an exact quote at the moment but John Ramsey did say once that he thought it more likely that Priscilla White did it. She used phrases like "fat cats" and "southern common sense" in general conversation. The Boulder Police Department were quick to clear Fleet White. He was very friendly with Boulder policeman Steve Thomas. Fleet White was cleared at any opportunity. I think Fleet White has been cleared by Beckner and his bungling detectives about three times so far.

Fleet White has been involved in strange behavior ever since the JonBenet murder.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 09:53 AM   #185
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The Ramseys announced their suspicions of the Whites in their depositions as well as their suspicion of Chris Wolf in their book on the case. I can't provide an exact quote at the moment but John Ramsey did say once that he thought it more likely that Priscilla White did it. She used phrases like "fat cats" and "southern common sense" in general conversation. The Boulder Police Department were quick to clear Fleet White. He was very friendly with Boulder policeman Steve Thomas. Fleet White was cleared at any opportunity. I think Fleet White has been cleared by Beckner and his bungling detectives about three times so far.
The Ramseys also suspected their housekeeper.

Quote:
Fleet White has been involved in strange behavior ever since the JonBenet murder.
The Ramseys' behavior was far from typical.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 11:17 AM   #186
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Handwriting analysis aside, there are a number of interesting things related to the ransom note:
- the demanded ransom matched John Ramsey's bonus
- while the salutation was "Mr. Ramsey", in the body of the note Mr. Ramsey is addressed as "john" and in increasing frequency as the note progresses and takes on a more personal tone
- allusions are made to Mr. Ramsey's background (e.g., "use your southern common sense")
- the note expressed a concern for Mr. Ramsey's welfare ("the delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be well-rested")
- the note curiously instructed Mr. Ramsey to bring an "attache" to the bank rather than the more common "briefcase" and then mentioned "law enforcement countermeasures" rather than the more common "police procedures", after earlier misspelling "business" AND "scrutiny"
- the author returned the notepad to the drawer after writing the ransom note
- the note specifically stated that JonBenet would be killed if the Ramseys talk to anyone ("If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies.") but the Ramseys allowed a number of friends to come to their house
A couple more:
- the ransom was to be paid on the vague "tomorrow" rather than on a specific day
- the note was left on the back staircase rather than in a generic place that someone who didn't know the family's habits could be sure that it was found
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 01:04 PM   #187
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Personally, I don't think the housekeeper, or Merv the Perv Pugh are all that relevant to the Ramsey case.
But the Ramseys apparently did.

Quote:
It's true that Nancy Krebs mistakenly thought in her simple mind that John Ramsey was involved. That's probably why Lin Wood never pressed the point at the time. I suppose his job was just to defend the Ramseys. The point is that Nancy Krebs said that JonBenet was murdered at a sex party in Boulder and that Fleet White and her mother were involved. It should have been further investigated. I find it incredible that Beckner is still convinced the Ramseys did it, and nobody else. It's bad police work. No wonder innocent people get convicted in America.
Nancy Krebs said that both her mother and her niece were at the White's Christmas party. Neither were actually there. Nancy Krebs also claimed to be a witness to 2 other murders.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2016, 04:41 PM   #188
Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
 
Ampulla of Vater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North of the White Line of Toldt
Posts: 3,045
Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
This is one of those things. Did they tell Patsy to write it out or subtly imply that she should copy what was written? She has already seen the note.
Patsy herself stated she never read the whole note. She read the first few lines and screamed for John, who then spread out the note and read it.

Last edited by Ampulla of Vater; 24th September 2016 at 04:46 PM.
Ampulla of Vater is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 03:48 AM   #189
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post

Nancy Krebs said that both her mother and her niece were at the White's Christmas party. Neither were actually there. Nancy Krebs also claimed to be a witness to 2 other murders.
That's not strictly correct. I agree Nancy's information was gossip, but gossip can be important in murder investigations, and it should be INVESTIGATED. It was just not believed. The Boulder police think child prostitution, like bugging, does not happen, It was Nancy's niece who was at the party where JonBenet was murdered, with Fleet White and Nancy's mom. Nancy's niece was a very little girl then. She is not such a little girl now if she has not been bumped off by now.

The average jury does not listen to the evidence. Juries are easily conned and swayed by trickster prosecutors. Either juries have only one ear, or they are deaf.

Chris Wolf was discussed by Lin Wood, with Boulder police chief Mark Beckner in Beckner's deposition in 2002:

5 Q You've got writings that indicate some

6 admitted dislike for Lockheed and suppliers of arms

7 to Third World people. Chris Wolf, you found that

8 out, didn't you?

9 A Yes.

10 Q Did you know that you had a man that would

11 go and submit for money to go to parties where all of

12 the people there would be men and that he would strip

13 naked and allow them to fondle him and he would then

14 allow them to perform oral sex on him; did you ever

15 learn that about Chris Wolf?

16 A No.

17 Q Did you ever learn that Chris Wolf would

18 go to parties and allow women and men to touch him

19 and then have intercourse in front of other people

20 with women while the others watched; did you ever

21 learn that about Chris Wolf?

22 A Not to my knowledge.

23 Q Did you ever make any inquiries and

24 ascertain the use by Chris Wolf of illegal drugs?

25 A I don't know.

143

1 Q Did you ever follow up to find out about

2 Chris Wolf's subsequent employment history after

3 he -- the death of JonBenet and whether he had any

4 jobs that might have put him into contact with young

5 females age four, five, six or seven?

6 A I don't know.

7 Q Did you ever learn that Chris Wolf would

8 take pictures of himself masturbating and display

9 them to other people?

10 A No.

11 Q Did you ever learn that Chris Wolf would

12 allow himself to be photographed nude and to have his

13 picture used in publications to sell erotic devices?

14 A No.

15 Q Don't you think that that is information

16 that you would want to know?

17 A Certainly.

18 Q Wouldn't a thorough investigation of Chris

19 Wolf have resulted in the Boulder Police Department

20 learning those facts about this man if you accept

21 that I'm telling you the truth about what he admitted

22 to when he was put under oath?

23 A I'm not sure.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 25th September 2016 at 03:52 AM.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 04:45 AM   #190
LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
 
LTC8K6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Directly under a deadly chemtrail
Posts: 21,159
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe Burke didn't tell them that he hit her with the flashlight. Maybe he wouldn't say anything about what he had done. Maybe the parents had no idea that he had hit her with the MagLite and no idea that he had poked her with a train track.
Was Jonbenet's DNA found on the flashlight or the train track tips?
__________________
What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away. What seems to be, is always better than nothing.

2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
LTC8K6 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 05:10 AM   #191
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
That's not strictly correct. I agree Nancy's information was gossip, but gossip can be important in murder investigations, and it should be INVESTIGATED. It was just not believed. The Boulder police think child prostitution, like bugging, does not happen, It was Nancy's niece who was at the party where JonBenet was murdered, with Fleet White and Nancy's mom.
Whatever. Every source that I've found has said that Nancy Krebs' niece was not at the party with any member of her family.

Quote:
Nancy's niece was a very little girl then. She is not such a little girl now if she has not been bumped off by now.
There is a forum for conspiracy theories.

Quote:
Chris Wolf was discussed by Lin Wood, with Boulder police chief Mark Beckner in Beckner's deposition in 2002:
That a gay man participates in group sex and works as a model for a company that sells sex toys should make him a suspect in a murder for which there is no physical evidence tying him to?
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 08:07 AM   #192
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Then the Ramseys would have suspected that as well? Did they announce their suspicion to the police?
John Ramsey was interviewed about this in 2000:

8 Q. Do you still consider Priscilla
9 White to be a suspect?
10 A. I never considered either of the
11 Whites to be a suspect. Their behavior
12 post-December '96 was very, very strange.
13 And that -- we were frightened of it, pure
14 and simple.
15 MR. WOOD: Did they ever --
16 THE WITNESS: But I -- you know,
17 we were at their home that evening, they
18 were in good spirits, they had relatives
19 there, I had no reason to consider them
20 suspects.
21 MR. WOOD: All of their letters,
22 you made mention of this, and it now has
23 struck that cord with me on handwriting, it
24 seems that all of Fleet's and Priscilla's
25 joint letters have been typed. Do you all
0082
1 have handwriting on Fleet White?
2 MR. KANE: I am sure we do. I
3 know we do.
4 (By Mr. Kane) Maybe the word
5 suspect then needs to be defined. Do you
6 today think there is a possibility that
7 Priscilla White killed your daughter?
8 A. We have not eliminated anyone in
9 our minds. We have become suspicious of
10 everyone. And that's how I feel.
11 Q. Is there anything, other than what
12 you described on several occasions about what
13 happened down in Atlanta around the time of
14 the funeral, is there anything other than
15 that that would suggest --
16 A. Yeah. God, he is in the paper
17 every few months with some 20 page letter.
18 I just think that -- I don't understand it.
19 I can't explain it. I don't know if he --
20 I mean, it was a traumatic event. They were
21 there. I don't know. But our feeling was
22 that their behavior was frightening.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 08:33 AM   #193
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,526
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Was Jonbenet's DNA found on the flashlight or the train track tips?
Heckifiknow.

I'm still wondering if the flashlight batteries were checked for fingerprints.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 08:33 AM   #194
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
Whatever. Every source that I've found has said that Nancy Krebs' niece was not at the party with any member of her family.

There is a forum for conspiracy theories.

That a gay man participates in group sex and works as a model for a company that sells sex toys should make him a suspect in a murder for which there is no physical evidence tying him to?
The matter of Nancy Krebs was never investigated properly, or thoroughly. It was never Nancy's intention for all that publicity about the matter. She only went to the police because she was concerned about her niece. She admitted she knew next to nothing about the JonBenet case. The Boulder police, I think it was Trujillo, did interview Nancy's mom but it was a very cursory interview. She just denied she had been in Boulder at the time, though she admitted she was in the area at Halloween. Jameson just dismisses Nancy's story for no good reason, and Jameson even thinks Fleet White is innocent. Steve Thomas is on record as saying Nancy's information is not relevant. The trouble is the evidence goes in one ear and out the other ear with these people

This is what Biz thought about the matter in 2010:

"I won't reveal my source but I will give you an example. When there was a get together with case followers at a local hotel one year. FW reportedly had a plant sit right next to Lee Hill on purpose so she could get information about NK for him.

He has tried to intimidate NK into recanting her story but she refuses.
I also think Spade may have been communicating with him to update him on forum info. Perhaps it was his job to sway the media in another direction too? JMO

This was the death of a friend's daughter. Perhaps he is just overly curious, or perhaps he has reason to keep tabs on the case because of NK has involved his family. One cannot discount the obvious. They are definitely connected. NK's mother was the god daughter of FW SR. Spade is also related to NK through marriage."
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 08:46 AM   #195
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
This is a posting I made about Fleet White in 2006. Nancy Krebs was treated like a whistleblower:

This is an interesting posting with regard to Fleet White which cheekysodd made on another JonBenet forum a couple of years ago. I agree with everything that was written here about Fleet:"Here's something for Nancy naysayers to consider: "Forget Nancy. Assume she's a delusional liar and irrelevant to this case.

Fleet still makes a prime suspect for many reasons:*He "accidentally" called 911 on the 23rd while at the Ramsey Christmas party

*According to Patsy, he went to the wine cellar on the 23rd to get wine

*He left the house with a note pad

*He immediately checked the locked wine cellar after he arrived at the house on the 26th

*He failed to comfort John

*He took extensive notes

*He tampered with the crime scene twice, and ignored a police order to protect the crime scene

*He left the living room while everyone else prayed for JonBenet and her parents

*He disrupted the mourning for JonBenet

*He scared Ramsey friends and family. 911 was called because of his behaviour

*He disrupted a private counseling visit between the Ramseys and Hoverstock

*He prevented a memorial service for JonBenet at his church

*He knew the RN by heart, according to Patsy

*He often said John's name when talking to him, like the RN writer

*He spoke about conspiracies and erotic asphyxiation of children before the BCC on August 6 and never mentioned that it was her birthday

*He is obsessed with this case and how it is handled, to the degree that he used the case as an excuse for ignoring 2 subpoenas, was convicted of contempt and given the maximum jail sentence

*He wanted Hunter, Wise, and who knows how many other DA's disbarred for talking to the media and not arresting the Ramseys

*At the same time, he frequently breakfasted with the case's biggest blabbermouth, Steve Thomas. That must be OK, since Thomas blames Patsy.*Fleet, who claims a disdain for the media, expected them to publish all of his letters

*He was friendly with he who must not be mentioned (Spade) and has a very bad reputation, and who sold many malicious and untruthful stories to the tabs. That must be OK since the unmentionable one blames the Ramseys and Burke in particular.*He basically and literally expects everyone to "follow his instructions to the letter"*He is an expert, champion sailor ,"Victory!", taught John a lot about sail racing, planned their outings,"Don't try to grow a brain"*He raced sailboats at 118.000.00 degrees longitude in Newport Beach, CA

*He was called "morally empty" by the BPD head of police

*Poster "B" said Fleet made JonBenet uncomfortable in Charlevoix

These are reasons why Fleet was,and maybe still is, a suspect in this case, Nancy or no Nancy.

Perhaps there are other reasons that the public is not aware of."
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 08:59 AM   #196
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 3,321
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Heckifiknow.

I'm still wondering if the flashlight batteries were checked for fingerprints.
This matter of a flashlight has been mentioned on the JonBenet forums for years. What interested me is that a flashlight was 'lost' from the crime scene and supposedly magically turned up and found in a Boulder police store many months later. God knows if it was the same flashlight. I don't have a definite opinion about battery fingerprints. This is some waffle from the internet about the matter:

"The Flashlight

Where Found. A Mag-lite flashlight was found on the kitchen counter according to John Ramsey's 1998 interview with police.

Taken into Evidence. "That morning, Officer Weiss noticed a heavy police-style flashlight on the Ramseys' kitchen counter. By the end of the day, none of the cops had claimed it, so it was taken into evidence" (Schiller 1999:61).

Report of Flashlight Disappearance.

Police Deny Report. Although there was a rumor that this flashlight taken as evidence by BPD had disappeared, police denied this. "Recent media reports that a flashlight had been lost and recently found are incorrect," the police statement said. "The flashlight recovered from the Ramsey home was taken to CBI (the Colorado Bureau of Investigation) in March 1997 for forensic analysis. After the completed analysis it was returned to the custody of the Police Department in October 1997 and has never been missing" CNN, 1/15/98. "The supposition that it was lost and recently found is incorrect," Aaholm said. "It was analyzed by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation early on and returned to police as part of the investigation." "The police spokeswoman [Leslie Aaholm] said she didn't know whose flashlight it was or what was found in the CBI examination" Denver Post 1/14/98.

Time Magazine Account. "Time's Denver bureau chief, who reported on the flashlight, said, "Our information is that it was lost for a considerable amount of time, and then was recovered in the police storage area, so I'll still stand by our story" CNN, 1/15/98.

Not a Police Flashlight. "The flashlight does not appear to belong to any police officers, according to the [Time] magazine" Daily Camera, 1/12/98. "The police spokeswoman [Leslie Aaholm] said she didn't know whose flashlight it was..." Denver Post 1/14/98.

No Fingerprints

No prints were found on either the exterior or batteries, leading some to believe it had been wiped clean of any fingerprints Rocky Mountain News.
However, Internet poster Dave has pointed out there could be alternative explanations for lack of prints (e.g., factory-inserted batteries).
When a report reads "no prints,"… …it means no prints of evidentiary value were preserved. It does not mean that the item was wiped down, or that no one had ever touched or handled it... …The term "no prints" does not mean that there were no marks or smears - it means that if any markings were present, they lacked sufficient detail to be of evidentiary value. ("Fingerprints: What They Can & Cannot Do!," The Print, Volume 10, number 7, June 1994, pp. 1-3. Emphasis in original) Quote and source provided by Internet poster Anti-K.

No Crime Scene Photo. No crime scene photo of this flashlight has been made public, but a good picture of a Maglite 3D is here.

Forum Discussion. A discussion of the flashlight evidence is at Webbsleuths and Websleuths.

Was Flashlight Used for Head Blow?"

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 25th September 2016 at 09:01 AM.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 09:07 AM   #197
Sergei Walankov
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Was Jonbenet's DNA found on the flashlight or the train track tips?
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Heckifiknow.

I'm still wondering if the flashlight batteries were checked for fingerprints.
According to the CBS show, both the flashlight and the batteries yielded nothing in the way of DNA or fingerprints. It was suggested this would be unlikely in the normal course of events, and we were led to infer they had been wiped.
Sergei Walankov is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 09:52 AM   #198
TellyKNeasuss
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,010
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
*According to Patsy, he went to the wine cellar on the 23rd to get wine
The murder took place on the 26th.

Quote:
*He left the house with a note pad
It wasn't the notepad used to write the ransom note.

Quote:
*He immediately checked the locked wine cellar after he arrived at the house on the 26th
Immediately?

Quote:
*He failed to comfort John
John failed to comfort Patsy (according to the first arriving police officer).

Quote:
*He tampered with the crime scene twice, and ignored a police order to protect the crime scene
As did John Ramsey.

Quote:
*He left the living room while everyone else prayed for JonBenet and her parents
John Ramsey went down to the basement by himself BEFORE he went with Fleet White.
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 10:20 AM   #199
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 21,526
Quote:
By the end of the day, none of the cops had claimed it, so it was taken into evidence.
That doesn't yield a comprehensive answer. Does the term "claimed it" mean that none of the cops voluntarily came looking for their misplaced flashlight, or that each cop was asked about it and none of them said that it was theirs? That distinction matters because you can have a cop who leaves his flashlight somewhere and then never returns to get it.

Quote:
When a report reads "no prints,"… …it means no prints of evidentiary value were preserved. It does not mean that the item was wiped down, or that no one had ever touched or handled it... …The term "no prints" does not mean that there were no marks or smears - it means that if any markings were present, they lacked sufficient detail to be of evidentiary value.
Yeah and that matters. We really would want to know if they found fingerprints that were of no evidentiary value because that might suggest that it wasn't really wiped to remove any prints. Is it true that the examiners do not document prints whatsoever if they do not have evidentiary value? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Quote:
No crime scene photo of this flashlight has been made public
We have that photo posted in this thread.

Originally Posted by Sergei
According to the CBS show, both the flashlight and the batteries yielded nothing in the way of DNA or fingerprints. It was suggested this would be unlikely in the normal course of events, and we were led to infer they had been wiped.
If they were wiped with household cloths (including paper towels) there could be telltale fibers.

Quote:
However, Internet poster Dave has pointed out there could be alternative explanations for lack of prints (e.g., factory-inserted batteries).
Yeah ok, so then you check to see if the batteries inside are actually correct for factory installation. Brand, date of manufacturer, etc.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2016, 10:55 AM   #200
Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
 
Ampulla of Vater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: North of the White Line of Toldt
Posts: 3,045
Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Was Jonbenet's DNA found on the flashlight or the train track tips?
No. No DNA or prints from the flashlight. I do not know if the train tracks were checked, as that theory came out much later.
Ampulla of Vater is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:29 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.