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Tags Brendan Dassey , murder cases , Steven Avery , Teresa Halbach

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Old 30th December 2018, 08:44 PM   #161
Ampulla of Vater
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post

...

In terms of sliming people, what does your silence on those who make direct personal attacks against dedicated police officers/investigators in this case say about you? To make matters worse, the negative labels placed upon these officers and investigators is based on innuendo, speculation, and a conspiracy mindset. IMO, that is the true definition of despicable.
Please show me "direct personal attacks against dedicated police officers in this case" located in this thread. To my knowledge, other than one specific conspiracy theorist, there haven't been any.

Do you believe Colborn and Lenk were right to be involved in this case at all?
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Old 31st December 2018, 01:22 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Please show me "direct personal attacks against dedicated police officers in this case" located in this thread. To my knowledge, other than one specific conspiracy theorist, there haven't been any.

Do you believe Colborn and Lenk were right to be involved in this case at all?
It is on the record that Charlie Wilkes says only a cop could do it.
It can be inferred that this is James Lenk.

I guess that is sliming a cop, but Lenk framed Avery with ultimate malice even if he did not bludgeon Halbach to death then drill her with two bullets.
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Old 31st December 2018, 04:19 AM   #163
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There was another suspect in 1985

"The police department had called me a couple weeks after the assault and said they had another suspect in mind. They didn’t give me a name, but it turns out it was Gregory Allen. I hung up and I called the sheriff and said, “What’s this about another suspect?” I was told, “Do not talk to the police department, it will only confuse you.”"

IIUC some people in law enforcement suspected Gregory Allen in the rape of Penny Beerntsen. There have been so many professional lapses by law enforcement and the judicial system regarding Avery and Dassey that it would be difficult to list them all in one sitting.
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Old 1st January 2019, 09:47 AM   #164
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The investigation and LE activity in this case belongs in a Hall of Shame. It must be on a list somewhere of the case with the highest rate of mistakes. It should call for the firing of all involved.

It does not, in any way, make them any less guilty.
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Old 1st January 2019, 12:01 PM   #165
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not sure yet

Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
The investigation and LE activity in this case belongs in a Hall of Shame. It must be on a list somewhere of the case with the highest rate of mistakes. It should call for the firing of all involved.

It does not, in any way, make them any less guilty.
wasapi,

On the one hand, I don't have an entirely satisfying alternative explanation besides Mr. Avery's being the guilty party (I see no compelling evidence that Dassey had anything to do with whatever happened). On the other hand, there are so many questionable items of evidence, that once I cross them off my list, I am not sure whether or not there is enough for a conviction. What evidence convinces you?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:07 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
The investigation and LE activity in this case belongs in a Hall of Shame. It must be on a list somewhere of the case with the highest rate of mistakes. It should call for the firing of all involved.

It does not, in any way, make them any less guilty.
If the investigation belongs in the hall of shame they have no reliable evidence, so they created it.
Kathleen Zellner proves Teresa Halbach drove from the property and this makes Avery innocent. How they got the blood in the Rav 4 is the only unresolved issue, but they demonstrate a pathway in series 2. Ken Kratz was delivered a solid looking case and as a prosecutor he only had to show the blood in the car to secure a conviction. For a jury, this overrides all the completely impossible logistical evidence, including the ludicrous body burning in a shallow pit.
This is in the top drawer of obvious framings, but Charlie's theory relies on some remarkable good fortune and an extraordinary plot that could fail in several ways, not least that Steve Avery might have had a continual alibi while Teresa was leaving the property. In this case an innocent young woman would have been pointlessly sacrificed.
Nor does Bobby Dassey look like a killer with such evil intent, so the mystery remains.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:19 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
On the one hand, I don't have an entirely satisfying alternative explanation besides Mr. Avery's being the guilty party (I see no compelling evidence that Dassey had anything to do with whatever happened). On the other hand, there are so many questionable items of evidence, that once I cross them off my list, I am not sure whether or not there is enough for a conviction.?
This is my position after finishing Part 2. Thanks for summarizing so well.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 03:50 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
wasapi,

On the one hand, I don't have an entirely satisfying alternative explanation besides Mr. Avery's being the guilty party (I see no compelling evidence that Dassey had anything to do with whatever happened). On the other hand, there are so many questionable items of evidence, that once I cross them off my list, I am not sure whether or not there is enough for a conviction. What evidence convinces you?
Chris, I'm afraid it has been a long time since I have reviewed all of my notes, sites, and other information that I have accumulated since the beginning. I followed the story since day #1, and spent a great deal of time researching. Right now, the way my memory is, I'm sorry, but until I do review it, I can't say definitively what evidence convinced me. I do know that I believe 100% he is guilty.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 03:11 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Chris, I'm afraid it has been a long time since I have reviewed all of my notes, sites, and other information that I have accumulated since the beginning. I followed the story since day #1, and spent a great deal of time researching. Right now, the way my memory is, I'm sorry, but until I do review it, I can't say definitively what evidence convinced me. I do know that I believe 100% he is guilty.
Know and believe are disparate words.
However I know what you mean.
You will have reconciled Steve's guilt with the car leaving the property after the photo shoot, or will not have considered this problem, one or other.
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Old 1st February 2019, 05:48 AM   #170
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Them bones

A tweet fron Jerome Buting: "In layman’s terms: State wants to avoid a hearing on this where they have to explain why they gave to Halbach family quarry bones that KK claimed at trial were non-human. KZ wants to prove with new DNA technique they were TH, as further proof she wasn’t burned at SA’s property."
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Old 1st February 2019, 09:03 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
A tweet fron Jerome Buting: "In layman’s terms: State wants to avoid a hearing on this where they have to explain why they gave to Halbach family quarry bones that KK claimed at trial were non-human. KZ wants to prove with new DNA technique they were TH, as further proof she wasn’t burned at SA’s property."
I find the continuing saga interesting, but does it make any difference at this point?
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Old 3rd February 2019, 05:15 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I find the continuing saga interesting, but does it make any difference at this point?
Remarkable cognitive dissonance.
Would you care if it was your daughter set to die in prison for a crime committed by someone else?
I see this callous attitude in other cases.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 08:20 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Remarkable cognitive dissonance.
Would you care if it was your daughter set to die in prison for a crime committed by someone else?
I see this callous attitude in other cases.
I didn't intend to sound callous or uncaring, but was simply asking if there's any realistic chance either of these men will ever get a new trial?

If it were my son or daughter, I'm not sure I'd want to continue to ask them to hope if the hard fact is there is nothing to genuinely hope for.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 04:57 PM   #174
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AEDPA and the appeals system

I am not a lawyer, but it's tough to see where Mr. Dassey could go for relief at this point. I don't know about Mr. Avery. I just finished reading The Cadaver King and the Country Dentist, and my opinions of our appeals system in the U.S. and AEDPA are both even lower, if that is possible.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 05:24 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I didn't intend to sound callous or uncaring, but was simply asking if there's any realistic chance either of these men will ever get a new trial?

If it were my son or daughter, I'm not sure I'd want to continue to ask them to hope if the hard fact is there is nothing to genuinely hope for.
Sorry for being harsh, but there is no call to give up, these cases need fighting forever. Why not fight, it can clearly happen to anyone at all.
In New Zealand, Arthur Thomas, Rex Haig, David Bain and Mark Lundy are all hardworking people who got selected like Steven Avery by fate.
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Old 25th February 2019, 07:02 PM   #176
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Zellner has a bone to pick with the investigation

Zellner told Newsweek it's a big win for Avery. "The appellate court granted our motion to supplement the record with the evidence the bones were destroyed," she explained. "The case is being remanded back to the circuit court to conduct proceedings, which can include a hearing. The circuit court can grant a new trial, or if not, back to appellate court who can reverse the conviction and/or grant a new trial. Either way, the State opposed this motion and lost. This evidence has the potential to undo the whole case, so it is a big win."
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Old 26th February 2019, 06:24 AM   #177
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I'd rather see Dassey get a chance at another trial.
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Old 26th February 2019, 07:32 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I'd rather see Dassey get a chance at another trial.
Yes; me too.
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:33 AM   #179
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Despite Allen's DNA

"[Manitowoc County Sheriff] Petersen also testified at a pretrial hearing that he did not believe that Gregory Allen was the real rapist of the 1985 crime that Avery was wrongly convicted." Post-Crescent.

This is why I do not trust the county's involvement in the Halbach case.
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Old 28th March 2019, 03:53 PM   #180
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cognitive dissonance on a grand scale

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
"[Manitowoc County Sheriff] Petersen also testified at a pretrial hearing that he did not believe that Gregory Allen was the real rapist of the 1985 crime that Avery was wrongly convicted." Post-Crescent.
Assuming that he thinks that Avery is guilty of the rape in 1985, this raises some questions. It would seem that the sheriff is in the grip of cognitive dissonance: It is easier for him to believe that somehow Avery is guilty than out is to believe that he helped imprison someone wrongfully. Moreover, the sheriff must somehow ignore the DNA evidence pointing to Allen and presumably ignore Avery's alibi. IMO indicates that the sheriff is either simply incompetent or is so strongly in the grip of confirmation bias that it is difficult to trust any investigation of Avery in which he or his department were involved.
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Old 28th March 2019, 06:34 PM   #181
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Financial fallout from the Beatrice Six case

The Beatrice, Nebraska Six were wrongfully convicted of a rape and murder. The judgment against Gage county (population 22,000) is $28,000,000. "So officials in Gage County soon may be faced with choosing a path to pay a judgment that exceeds the county’s total annual budget by roughly $1 million." Manitowoc County is larger in population by roughly fourfold and may have been more able to bear such a burden more easily than Gage County, but the point is debatable.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 01:02 PM   #182
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Zellner responds to the State of Wisconsin's response

Kathleen Zellner was quoted at Newsweek: “Of course the State cannot address the merits of Avery's claim, because it is blatantly guilty of evidence destruction,” Zellner told Newsweek. “Its charade continues without the slightest inclination to discover the truth. Significantly, one of the culprits [Thomas Fallon] in the whole sad scenario authored the State's Response. Unfortunately, the citizens of Wisconsin are the recipients of this mockery of justice."
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Old 3rd April 2019, 03:19 PM   #183
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Without question, an innocent person doing prison time for a crime they did not commit, is a tragedy. It screams of pain, injustice, and pleads for things to be made right, to restore innocence. It is heartbreaking.

Having followed this case from the beginning, reading everything I could find, pro, con, and everything in between. NOTHING, nothing has changed my belief that Avery is 100% guilty.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 05:19 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Without question, an innocent person doing prison time for a crime they did not commit, is a tragedy. It screams of pain, injustice, and pleads for things to be made right, to restore innocence. It is heartbreaking.

Having followed this case from the beginning, reading everything I could find, pro, con, and everything in between. NOTHING, nothing has changed my belief that Avery is 100% guilty.
That means you think that Zellner, who takes one case in 2000, and says you better be innocent when you ask for my help, has this all wrong?
She is digging deeper, has been spending her own money. That would convince me even without looking at the evidence showing it was impossible Avery was involved. But you are in good company if Ken Kratz is your type of man.
I do not comprehend at all anyone batting for the county on this one.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 09:22 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That means you think that Zellner, who takes one case in 2000, and says you better be innocent when you ask for my help, has this all wrong?
She is digging deeper, has been spending her own money. That would convince me even without looking at the evidence showing it was impossible Avery was involved. But you are in good company if Ken Kratz is your type of man.
I do not comprehend at all anyone batting for the county on this one.
Samson. I know we have been here before, given our opinions and questions, and so I don't really want to go back over them, and even feel we both have, since then, probably dug the heels of our convictions even more deeply in the setting concrete!


I am not as impressed with Zellner as you are. I can't see either of us changing our opinion, do you? Also, believe it or not, I understand you. Years ago, I would have taken your position. Then, working for years as a PI, and seeing things from that experience gave a different perspective.


So, I was thinking we could agree to disagree. I do really respect your opinion, Samson.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 10:10 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Without question, an innocent person doing prison time for a crime they did not commit, is a tragedy. It screams of pain, injustice, and pleads for things to be made right, to restore innocence. It is heartbreaking.

Having followed this case from the beginning, reading everything I could find, pro, con, and everything in between. NOTHING, nothing has changed my belief that Avery is 100% guilty.
I've been following the case since MaM1 came out and early on I believed Avery could very well be innocent. Though I wasn't sure Lenk or Colborn had anything to do with framing him - they didn't strike me as evil people.

I started lurking online and reading books by Griesbach, Kratz and Buting, with the latter being by far the least satisfying and convincing imo. I learned many new facts, such as Avery claiming Halbach hadn't shown up and then changing his story several times, claiming he "didn't burn anything" on Halloween, him "coincidentally" skipping work for the first time on the day she went missing and never providing a plausible explanation for that, trying to sell his sister's van while his sister said she didn't want him to. That sort of evidence shouldn't exist at all if he is innocent.

I started wondering... if the days before the RAV4 was found were a search for a missing girl, and not yet a homicide investigation, then nobody during that time was investigated. Steven neither. They didn't know anything about him and his activities on the 31st. That means if the cops planted the car, that they were extremely lucky to find out Steven had no alibi after Halbach left, which he would've hadn't he skipped work. It means the cops were extremely lucky when, after planting the blood in the car, they learned that Steven actually had three cuts on his finger and thus could've left the blood they had just smeared on the dashboard. They were extremely lucky that Steven Avery had a bonfire behind his garage (according to Blaine Dassey for the first time ever). For some reason Steven is an exact match with the evidence.

I also wondered that IF Teresa did leave, that the cops were really lucky that she didn't make a phone call after she left, or checked her voicemail. They were lucky she wasn't seen by someone after she left. They are lucky there were no witnesses to the real murder by the "real killer" and that the real killer didn't turn himself in.

All things considered Avery is, imo, 100% guilty. Zellner's attempts, which imo are often dishonest, haven't changed my view on that at all.

Last edited by ACJL; 22nd April 2019 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 01:45 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by ACJL View Post
I've been following the case since MaM1 came out and early on I believed Avery could very well be innocent. Though I wasn't sure Lenk or Colborn had anything to do with framing him - they didn't strike me as evil people.

I started lurking online and reading books by Griesbach, Kratz and Buting, with the latter being by far the least satisfying and convincing imo. I learned many new facts, such as Avery claiming Halbach hadn't shown up and then changing his story several times, claiming he "didn't burn anything" on Halloween, him "coincidentally" skipping work for the first time on the day she went missing and never providing a plausible explanation for that, trying to sell his sister's van while his sister said she didn't want him to. That sort of evidence shouldn't exist at all if he is innocent.

I started wondering... if the days before the RAV4 was found were a search for a missing girl, and not yet a homicide investigation, then nobody during that time was investigated. Steven neither. They didn't know anything about him and his activities on the 31st. That means if the cops planted the car, that they were extremely lucky to find out Steven had no alibi after Halbach left, which he would've hadn't he skipped work. It means the cops were extremely lucky when, after planting the blood in the car, they learned that Steven actually had three cuts on his finger and thus could've left the blood they had just smeared on the dashboard. They were extremely lucky that Steven Avery had a bonfire behind his garage (according to Blaine Dassey for the first time ever). For some reason Steven is an exact match with the evidence.

I also wondered that IF Teresa did leave, that the cops were really lucky that she didn't make a phone call after she left, or checked her voicemail. They were lucky she wasn't seen by someone after she left. They are lucky there were no witnesses to the real murder by the "real killer" and that the real killer didn't turn himself in.

All things considered Avery is, imo, 100% guilty. Zellner's attempts, which imo are often dishonest, haven't changed my view on that at all.
I see that you are new. Welcome! Your post was, in my opinion, a perfect one. I agree with every word. For me, I find Zellner's antics pathetic. If anything, if I had been on the fence, Zellner would have assisted in tipping me over to guilt.

But I am not on that fence. Steven Avery IS a murderer.
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Old 22nd April 2019, 02:33 PM   #188
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This is from Charlie Wilkes at IA

"He was framed, obviously.

I would encourage you to look at the crime rather than who did it, because understanding the crime will tell you who did it.

Consider the evidence against Avery:

- Incinerated bones in his fire pit and in a nearby barrel
- A car key with his DNA but not the victim's
- A bullet with the victim's DNA that was fired into wood
- His blood smeared in random places inside the victim's car

It is a laundry list of crudely planted evidence. So where did this evidence come from? If you're going to plant a murder victim's remains in a suspect's yard, you need to have possession of the victim's dead body, right?

Consider the evidence no one could have planted:

- .22 caliber bullet holes in the skull
- Bloodstains in the back of the victim's car corresponding to a blunt weapon and hair transfer
- A cell phone ping showing that the victim left Avery's place after her appointment there

So... what happened that afternoon? And how is it this guy who was being feted by politicians and media as a victim of police misconduct, who was about to walk into court and get an 8-figure judgement against the county and its police force, suddenly found himself locked up for murder?

Coincidence? "

"The witnesses who testified about this fire - a supposed cremation pyre capable of consuming a human body, with flames that reached as high as the top of Avery's garage - did not mention it at all in their initial statements to police.

That is a fact."
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Old 22nd April 2019, 03:48 PM   #189
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A tale of two books

Mr. Kratz's press conference about Mr. Dassey provided evidence for two things. One is that his conduct was highly unethical; he did not simply cross a line, he walked so far he could barely see the line any more. Two is that he is a fabulist. Given these two things, I see no reason for trusting him or his book. Jerry Buting's book is a horse of a different color.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:15 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
I see that you are new. Welcome! Your post was, in my opinion, a perfect one. I agree with every word. For me, I find Zellner's antics pathetic. If anything, if I had been on the fence, Zellner would have assisted in tipping me over to guilt.

But I am not on that fence. Steven Avery IS a murderer.
Thank you for the welcome! And I agree with you too, her case would've tipped me over the edge as well. After three years she still doesn't have a narrative.
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Old 23rd April 2019, 11:36 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This is from Charlie Wilkes at IA

"He was framed, obviously.

I would encourage you to look at the crime rather than who did it, because understanding the crime will tell you who did it.

Consider the evidence against Avery:

- Incinerated bones in his fire pit and in a nearby barrel
- A car key with his DNA but not the victim's
- A bullet with the victim's DNA that was fired into wood
- His blood smeared in random places inside the victim's car

It is a laundry list of crudely planted evidence. So where did this evidence come from? If you're going to plant a murder victim's remains in a suspect's yard, you need to have possession of the victim's dead body, right?

Consider the evidence no one could have planted:

- .22 caliber bullet holes in the skull
- Bloodstains in the back of the victim's car corresponding to a blunt weapon and hair transfer
- A cell phone ping showing that the victim left Avery's place after her appointment there

So... what happened that afternoon? And how is it this guy who was being feted by politicians and media as a victim of police misconduct, who was about to walk into court and get an 8-figure judgement against the county and its police force, suddenly found himself locked up for murder?

Coincidence? "

"The witnesses who testified about this fire - a supposed cremation pyre capable of consuming a human body, with flames that reached as high as the top of Avery's garage - did not mention it at all in their initial statements to police.

That is a fact."
Well I did consider the evidence, the crime and the victim's body. That all tells us something about the real killer.

I do believe the DNA on the key was explained at trial by Culhane and Ertl. Their explanation I thought was plausible. The blood in the car is imo big evidence against Avery and imo nothing suggests it was planted. I don't think the cops, the ones that were on the property, had any motive to frame Avery.

Scott wasn't the only person who saw the bonfire.

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Old 23rd April 2019, 07:32 PM   #192
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changing gloves is a basic precaution

Ms. Culhane's work on this case is an object lesson in how not to do DNA forensics. There are some reports to the effect that a DNA technician did not change gloves. Changing one's gloves after handing each item of evidence is a common recommendation.
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Old 24th April 2019, 10:43 AM   #193
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Culhane's work on this case seems fine.

That DNA technician you are referring to was actually Nick Stahlke. I looked into his trial testimony and the relevant bit about the gloves seems to be:

Q. You were the one who opened the hood?
A. Yes.
Q. Which required releasing a lever inside, near the driver's left leg?
A. Yes.
Q. And then popping the hood latch when that appeared through the grill, at the front of the car?
A. Correct.
Q. Lifted the hood, propped it up with the metal rod, and looked at the battery posts?
A. Correct.
Q. One or both of those was disconnected?
A. If I recall, they both were disconnected, but I know for sure one was.
Q. And the one that we saw in the photo yesterday, I saw some reddish or reddish brown discoloration on or near the battery post?
A. Correct.
Q. Was that something you tested?
A. No.
Q. That, you decided, was not suspected blood?
A. Well, I believe there was actually a phenolphthalein test done on that, but there was no -- it was not positive.
Q. Okay. So whatever that was, wasn't blood.
A. Correct.
Q. Now, you were still wearing the same latex gloves when you opened the hood?
A. The same latex gloves that I put on prior to opening the hood?

Q. Yes.
A. Yes.

It's very ambitious to state he never changed gloves. Regardless, even if he hadn't changed his glove and did transfer some Avery DNA, then where did that DNA come from? All I can think of is the RAV4.
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Old 24th April 2019, 11:48 AM   #194
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changing gloves for each item of evidence is a no-brainer

Thank you; that passage is helpful. Let us assume for the sake of argument that Avery's blood is in the RAV4. If so, then DNA could have transferred that way. IIRC there have been one or two studies done that bear specifically on the question of DNA transfer via gloves since the time that I wrote a blog entry on the subject in 2013. On page 38 of John Butler's 2005 textbook Forensic DNA Typing, he wrote, "Use clean latex gloves for collecting each item of evidence. Gloves should be changed between handling of different items of evidence." Not changing one's gloves is suggestive of a lack of professionalism IMO.

Several of us have discussed in this and the previous thread what is wrong with Ms. Culhane's work in this case, mainly with respect to her handling of the bullet evidence. The Advanced Search option here allows you to search this thread by the name of the commenter.
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Old 24th April 2019, 01:10 PM   #195
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You're welcome. Claiming DNA contamination occurred based on that excerpt alone is, in my opinion, too ambitious. The excerpt is about the hood specifically. He may have switched gloves at other moments. The excerpt does not exclude that possibility.

Culhane was brought up because of the DNA on the key. The person who brought that up suggested that only one DNA profile on a key that was alleged to have been touched by at least two people (Halbach, Avery) should not have just one DNA profile. It was explained at trial by both Culhane, and Ertl, that it's not unusual to have just one DNA profile on an item that was handled by more than one person. Their explanations were imo plausible. One DNA profile on an item is not indicative of DNA being planted.

That Culhane contaminated the bullet sample after extracting it is unfortunate, but does not harm her conclusion that Halbach's DNA was in the bullet sample.

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Old 24th April 2019, 02:59 PM   #196
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consumptive testing and the ABA standards

I have not made any claims about what did happen, only about what careful versus sloppy protocols are, and I backed up my claim with a quote from the only complete textbook on DNA forensic profiling that is available. I am not sure about what others have claimed.

When the negative control shows DNA, the conservative thing to do is to run the entire batch over again. Neither she nor anyone else knows exactly how her DNA came to be there (although her speaking is a possibility). However, Ms. Culhane or her superiors did other things that run contrary to the ABA's model rules of DNA evidence, one of which was to prevent observer from the defense from attending a consumptive test (Standard 3.4). IIRC Ms. Culhane's deviation from protocol was not documented, as Mr. Buting's cross examination uncovered. The ABA standards read in part:
"3.3(b) The report should be sufficiently comprehensive so that an independent expert can identify the process used and the conclusions reached. Specifically, the report should include...
(iii) identification of the protocol used in the testing and any deviation from the protocol,"

Some of these points have been discussed in detail upthread.
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Old 25th April 2019, 03:45 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by ACJL View Post
You're welcome. Claiming DNA contamination occurred based on that excerpt alone is, in my opinion, too ambitious. The excerpt is about the hood specifically. He may have switched gloves at other moments. The excerpt does not exclude that possibility.

Culhane was brought up because of the DNA on the key. The person who brought that up suggested that only one DNA profile on a key that was alleged to have been touched by at least two people (Halbach, Avery) should not have just one DNA profile. It was explained at trial by both Culhane, and Ertl, that it's not unusual to have just one DNA profile on an item that was handled by more than one person. Their explanations were imo plausible. One DNA profile on an item is not indicative of DNA being planted.

That Culhane contaminated the bullet sample after extracting it is unfortunate, but does not harm her conclusion that Halbach's DNA was in the bullet sample.
The science embedded in this post suggests the owner of the key left no dna.
I am trying to imagine why she would leave no dna in a real world where you do not anticipate being murdered.
Or did Avery assiduously scrub her dna from the key?
Of course he did so the prosecutors were not at all confused by his pristine sample.
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Old 27th April 2019, 07:57 AM   #198
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The word "claim" was wrongly picked but I can no longer edit it. I should've said "assumption" or something to that effect. Regardless, it was mainly about the not-changing-gloves narrative. The supposed evidence for that does, in my opinion, not support the claim that the gloves were never changed.

We know, thanks to the documentary, that she should've run the batch over again, but that she couldn't and still felt this was appropriate evidence. Prior to running the evidence sample, Culhane did a control using a "blank" sample. At the end of the control, the sample was still "blank", indicating her instruments and her equipment were clean and not contaminated with Halbach's or her own DNA. It makes me wonder how Halbach's DNA was not on the control sample, but was on the evidence sample. If contamination played a role, one would think it should've been on both.

Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The science embedded in this post suggests the owner of the key left no dna.
I am trying to imagine why she would leave no dna in a real world where you do not anticipate being murdered.
Or did Avery assiduously scrub her dna from the key?
Of course he did so the prosecutors were not at all confused by his pristine sample.
I would disagree that the owner of the key left no DNA. Various studies have shown that a latter handler's DNA can actually replace the former handler's DNA. Both Culhane and Ertl gave testimony that it is not unusual to find just one DNA profile on an item that was handled by more than one person. Culhane also stated that touch DNA can be replaced by a latter handler's touch DNA.

Regardless, Avery also may simply have cleaned the key and, arguably not knowing about "touch DNA", just touched it again afterwards with his bare hands.

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