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Old 16th July 2020, 06:43 AM   #721
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
It is good at it, for a certain subset of goods and services.
Feels like you're moving the goalposts. It's adequate at it for a small subset of goods and services. Few people accept BTC.

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That's why there are billions in sales.
That is a very small number.
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Old 16th July 2020, 08:14 AM   #722
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A large factor in the price of bitcoin is "hodling". People buy them and hang onto them.
If Bitcoin, once purchased, could never be transferred or sold who would buy them and how much would they be willing to pay?

My guess is that if not for the hope of making money reselling them, no one would buy them at all. Selling them, not holding them is clearly the appeal. Of course if it were a viable currency spending them would be the appeal, but that it pretty much off the table at this point.
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Old 16th July 2020, 08:28 AM   #723
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
According to some guy named Madoff, fiat money is so awesome that no one ever gets scammed.
Had Madoff run his scams entirely in bitcoin it would have been all but impossible to seize any of the assets or recovered any of the money after he was convicted. Newer crypto-currencies do an even better job of this now so even the criminals are moving on from bitcoin.
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Old 16th July 2020, 08:55 AM   #724
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Feels like you're moving the goalposts. It's adequate at it for a small subset of goods and services. Few people accept BTC.
I haven't moved anything. You said it's only good for speculation, I said it's good for buying certain things to the tune of billions a year, which it is.

That is a very small number.[/quote]

It may be considerably less than the amount of fiat currency spent but billions is not a small number.
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Old 16th July 2020, 09:00 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
I haven't moved anything. You said it's only good for speculation, I said it's good for buying certain things to the tune of billions a year, which it is.
I've alredy explained that "adequate" isn't the same thing as "good".

Quote:
It may be considerably less than the amount of fiat currency spent but billions is not a small number.
Yes it is. Not for an individual, but for a currency, yes.
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Old 16th July 2020, 09:12 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Had Madoff run his scams entirely in bitcoin it would have been all but impossible to seize any of the assets or recovered any of the money after he was convicted. Newer crypto-currencies do an even better job of this now so even the criminals are moving on from bitcoin.
It depends, but I would agree it's generally easier to recover fiat money than crypto. Fiat/crypto already spent on services and consumed goods is gone regardless. Fiat/crypto spent on non consumable goods can be sold off to recover some of the funds. Fiat can be moved around and hidden and may or may not be recovered. Obviously finding a paper or digital trail can assist in that. Crypto can be moved around and hidden in various wallets. Finding a hardware wallet or passwords/phrases for digital wallets can let you recover the funds.
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Old 16th July 2020, 09:25 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
If Bitcoin, once purchased, could never be transferred or sold who would buy them and how much would they be willing to pay?

My guess is that if not for the hope of making money reselling them, no one would buy them at all. Selling them, not holding them is clearly the appeal. Of course if it were a viable currency spending them would be the appeal, but that it pretty much off the table at this point.
The onus is on you to prove that there is no "hodling" going on.
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Old 16th July 2020, 09:31 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I've alredy explained that "adequate" isn't the same thing as "good".
Okay Belz. Define "adequate" and "good" and the difference between the two in this context. Then give an example of a product or service commonly purchased using bitcoin and why it's use for such only rises to adequate instead of good.
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Old 16th July 2020, 09:51 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Okay Belz. Define "adequate" and "good" and the difference between the two in this context.
What I mean is that while BTC can be used to pay for stuff, it's difficult to find places that take the currency, and so not everything can be purchased with it, as opposed to regular currency, with which you can buy everything. That's a ig difference, for me.
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Old 16th July 2020, 10:21 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What I mean is that while BTC can be used to pay for stuff, it's difficult to find places that take the currency, and so not everything can be purchased with it, as opposed to regular currency, with which you can buy everything. That's a ig difference, for me.
I agree with you on that. And for the vast majority of products it is better to buy them with regular currency. A limited number of things, usually illegal, can be cheaper and safer for the consumer to purchase via bitcoin.
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Old 16th July 2020, 12:19 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The onus is on you to prove that there is no "hodling" going on.
How so? It was your claim that people were buying it to hold. At a bare minimum you should be willing to explain why people would do something like that.
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Old 16th July 2020, 01:28 PM   #732
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
How so? It was your claim that people were buying it to hold. At a bare minimum you should be willing to explain why people would do something like that.
Well if you buy for 20k, you want to sell when the price is more than 20k. So that's very good reason to hodl.
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Old 16th July 2020, 01:38 PM   #733
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You mean if you send good old dollars to Nigerian prince, you will get them back ?
Many banks have systems in place to make it harder for people to be scammed this way - eg. withdrawal limits, personal confirmation required for international payments, credit card fraud protection, educating their customers about scams etc. It's actually quite difficult to be scammed by a 'Nigerian Prince' these days - you have to work around the protections. Even if you do manage it, if the scammer is not actually in Nigeria but a country with a working legal system (a distinct possibility) the authorities may be able to track them down and perhaps even recover some of your money (not that you deserve it - a person has to be particularly thick and greedy to fall for a 419 scam today).

With Bitcoin there is virtually no chance. With Bitcoin you could be scammed by your neighbor and can't do anything about it because there is no trail back to them. Since Bitcoin is such a risk it would make sense for banks to refuse to deal in it. That way they would at least protect their own customers from Bitcoin scams (and Bitcoin itself). Ideally there would be no connection at all between Bitcoin and fiat banks.
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Old 16th July 2020, 01:40 PM   #734
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Many banks have systems in place to make it harder for people to be scammed this way - eg. withdrawal limits, personal confirmation required for international payments, credit card fraud protection, educating their customers about scams etc. It's actually quite difficult to be scammed by a 'Nigerian Prince' these days - you have to work around the protections. Even if you do manage it, if the scammer is not actually in Nigeria but a country with a working legal system (a distinct possibility) the authorities may be able to track them down and perhaps even recover some of your money (not that you deserve it - a person has to be particularly thick and greedy to fall for a 419 scam today).

With Bitcoin there is virtually no chance. With Bitcoin you could be scammed by your neighbor and can't do anything about it because there is no trail back to them. Since Bitcoin is such a risk it would make sense for banks to refuse to deal in it. That way they would at least protect their own customers from Bitcoin scams (and Bitcoin itself). Ideally there would be no connection at all between Bitcoin and fiat banks.
Western Union wire is still a common vector for scam payments. So are electronic gift cards. These are basically same as cash transactions that are largely irreversible.

I don't really see the Twitter hack as a uniquely Bitcoin scam. If anything, the unpopularity of Bitcoin likely limited how many people this could target.
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Old 16th July 2020, 01:52 PM   #735
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Well if you buy for 20k, you want to sell when the price is more than 20k. So that's very good reason to hodl.
Unless the price keeps going down, in which case it's better to sell now! How long do you HODL before deciding it's time to throw in the towel? If you bought really low and don't need the money then you could argue that it's better to HODL and hope the price goes up again. But people who bought in during the mania 3 years ago will probably never get their investment back.

Then one day you actually need the money (eg. due to falling ill or losing your job - a high probability these days) and have to cash out at whatever the price is at the time. It's only then that you realize what an idiot you were for HODLing. Once enough people get into that position, Bitcoin will tank like there's no tomorrow (which for Bitcoin there won't be).
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Old 16th July 2020, 02:18 PM   #736
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
If anything, the unpopularity of Bitcoin likely limited how many people this could target.
But that is outweighed by distinct advantages - including the total anonymity of the scammers, lack of intervention measures, and capturing those who are most likely to fall for something that isn't what it seems (ie. bitcoiners).

Quote:
Western Union wire is still a common vector for scam payments. So are electronic gift cards.
Western Union is mostly used by immigrants sending money back to their families. Gift cards are... gift cards! People don't expect to get anything in return. Also they are not normally used for large sums of money. But Western Union is a well-known scamming vector, and they keep their customers informed about it.

Fraud Awareness with Western Union US
Quote:
One of the things that sets us apart from other money transfer businesses is the trust that we build with our consumers... In addition, we work harder than ever to educate consumers about fraud so that they can take action to protect themselves. Western Union has invested a tremendous amount of time and resources in developing and continuously improving our consumer protection compliance programs.
Bitcoin? The warnings are brushed off by coiners who accuse us of being shills for fiat banking.
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Old 16th July 2020, 07:18 PM   #737
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Then one day you actually need the money (eg. due to falling ill or losing your job - a high probability these days) and have to cash out at whatever the price is at the time. It's only then that you realize what an idiot you were for HODLing. Once enough people get into that position, Bitcoin will tank like there's no tomorrow (which for Bitcoin there won't be).
So large numbers of bitcoin holders will lose their jobs and have to cash in their bitcoins?

That's quite a bit of fortune telling there. In any other thread, somebody making a prediction like that would be dismissed as a kook.
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Old 17th July 2020, 04:19 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But that is outweighed by distinct advantages - including the total anonymity of the scammers, lack of intervention measures, and capturing those who are most likely to fall for something that isn't what it seems (ie. bitcoiners).

Western Union is mostly used by immigrants sending money back to their families. Gift cards are... gift cards! People don't expect to get anything in return. Also they are not normally used for large sums of money. But Western Union is a well-known scamming vector, and they keep their customers informed about it.

Fraud Awareness with Western Union US

Bitcoin? The warnings are brushed off by coiners who accuse us of being shills for fiat banking.
I think the real benefit of a bitcoin scammer is that it can be done quickly from a home computer. The scam victim only has to believe the scam is real for a very short time, assuming they already involved with Bitcoin enough to know how to do transactions.

The Twitter security breach was pretty brief, and word got around quick about the hoax. Probably too fast to make Western Union a good option. Some sort of irreversible, electronic transfer from home was needed to cash in on the short scam window.

In that regards, Bitcoin was a good option.
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Old 17th July 2020, 02:11 PM   #739
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So large numbers of bitcoin holders will lose their jobs and have to cash in their bitcoins?
Rule of so? I never said it will happen.

Then again,

Unemployment rose higher in three months of COVID-19 than it did in two years of the Great Recession
Quote:
The COVID-19 outbreak and the economic downturn it engendered swelled the ranks of unemployed Americans by more than 14 million, from 6.2 million in February to 20.5 million in May 2020...

The rise in the number of unemployed workers due to COVID-19 is substantially greater than the increase due to the Great Recession, when the number unemployed increased by 8.8 million from the end of 2007 to the beginning of 2010. The Great Recession, which officially lasted from December 2007 to June 2009, pushed the unemployment rate to a peak of 10.6% in January 2010, considerably less than the rate currently
14 million is definitely a large number, though of course we don't how many of them were bitcoiners.

Unemployment has reduced since we opened up, but now we are having to lock down again because the virus is spreading even faster than before. If we don't get a handle on it soon the number of infected could reach 10 million or more, with a large proportion having long-term health issues. How will this affect unemployment? We don't know exactly, but I bet it won't be good.

For Bitcoin's sake I hope that few Americans have significant holdings. However it wouldn't take a large number to have a big effect if they do. It would only take a few 'whales' cashing out to spook the market.

Quote:
That's quite a bit of fortune telling there. In any other thread, somebody making a prediction like that would be dismissed as a kook.
I made no predictions, so there is nothing to dismiss.
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Old 17th July 2020, 02:25 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think the real benefit of a bitcoin scammer is that it can be done quickly from a home computer. The scam victim only has to believe the scam is real for a very short time, assuming they already involved with Bitcoin enough to know how to do transactions.
You can send money quickly from your computer with a credit card too. The difference is...

Quote:
The Twitter security breach was pretty brief, and word got around quick about the hoax. Probably too fast to make Western Union a good option. Some sort of irreversible, electronic transfer from home was needed to cash in on the short scam window.

In that regards, Bitcoin was a good option.
The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are.
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Old 18th July 2020, 03:10 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Rule of so? I never said it will happen.
OK Big Dog.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Then again,

(doubles down on the rising unemployment "theory")

14 million is definitely a large number, though of course we don't how many of them were bitcoiners.
So you admit that you don't have a clue about the effect of rising unemployment on bitcoin prices.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I made no predictions, so there is nothing to dismiss.
Yeah, right.
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Old 18th July 2020, 06:37 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are.
A mind reader as well as a fortune teller. WOO!
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Old 18th July 2020, 11:17 PM   #743
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
You can send money quickly from your computer with a credit card too. The difference is...



The other advantage is that bitcoiners are always looking for an excuse to pay for something with it, to prove that it really is the fiat-beating superior technology they imagine it to be. So they get scammed trying to show us how smart they are.
That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it.

Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart.

Chris B.
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Old 18th July 2020, 11:59 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it.

Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart.

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Old 19th July 2020, 07:54 AM   #745
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I can't believe that this thread is still going.

Bitcoin is not a currency, and the price is being propped up by Tether.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
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Old 19th July 2020, 08:48 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by anduin View Post
I can't believe that this thread is still going.
Hatred for bitcoin is strong. As long as old discredited arguments can be repeated about bitcoin, this thread will never end.
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Old 19th July 2020, 09:19 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Hatred for bitcoin is strong. As long as old discredited arguments can be repeated about bitcoin, this thread will never end.
I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in.

Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know.
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Old 19th July 2020, 09:49 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by anduin View Post
I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in.

Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know.
You mean the twitter hack ? Wiki says about 12BTC has moved. That's not really that much to shift price.
Still I'm surprised how many people went for it. This kind of scam is nothing new.
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Old 19th July 2020, 09:54 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You mean the twitter hack ? Wiki says about 12BTC has moved. That's not really that much to shift price.
Still I'm surprised how many people went for it. This kind of scam is nothing new.
I wasn't expecting the 12 BTC to shift the price, but I sort of excpected that the interest in Bitcoin following the hack could move things up. Many Bitocoin maximalists were excited by this prospect because Bitcoin was trending topic. They're desperate because there's no new money coming in.
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Old 19th July 2020, 10:23 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by anduin View Post
I wasn't expecting the 12 BTC to shift the price, but I sort of excpected that the interest in Bitcoin following the hack could move things up. Many Bitocoin maximalists were excited by this prospect because Bitcoin was trending topic. They're desperate because there's no new money coming in.
Yeah, it is quite stale. Even Coronavirus haven't really stir it.
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Old 19th July 2020, 11:40 AM   #751
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Yeah, it is quite stale. Even Coronavirus haven't really stir it.
The ultimate test for Bitcoin as a currency at the start of the pandemic was whether it could be used to buy toilet paper.

It's lacklustre even as store of value.
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Old 19th July 2020, 05:41 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by anduin View Post
I wouldn't call it hatred, I tend to ignore it for long periods, I was reminded of it after this week's hack. Interesting that it didn't shift the price, evidence again that there's no new money coming in.
I don't see how a Twitter hack proves that. Money "comes in" and "goes out" all the time.

Originally Posted by anduin View Post
Thether being the third largest cryptocurrency in the world tells you all you need to know.
I don't see that thether tells us anything. It is a crypto that originally came with the fraudulent claim that every thether coin was backed by a USD.

It might be easier to buy BTC if you already have an alt-currency but that is a long way from saying that bitcoin is "propped up" by thether.
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Old 20th July 2020, 02:43 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't see that thether tells us anything. It is a crypto that originally came with the fraudulent claim that every thether coin was backed by a USD.

It might be easier to buy BTC if you already have an alt-currency but that is a long way from saying that bitcoin is "propped up" by thether.
By its nature, Bitcoin requires constant influx of funds to maintain its price, this is because mining costs money and miners need to eat and pay their energy bills. If there's no cash from investors coming in, then miners need to get money in other ways, hence the importance of a stablecoin such as Tether. The fact that an evidently fraudulent stablecoin is the third largest cryptocurrency in the world indicates its relative importance, the clue is in the fact that nobody's buying Tether, they're just printing it as needed.
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Old 20th July 2020, 07:53 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by anduin View Post
By its nature, Bitcoin requires constant influx of funds to maintain its price, this is because mining costs money and miners need to eat and pay their energy bills.
This is what you get when a pseudo-expert starts making up theories. You get some nonsense about how bitcoin can't be sold unless money is "put into" it. The facts are a lot more mundane. Bitcoin simply gets sold at an agreed upon price. No money gets "put into" the bitcoin, it simply changes hands.

A handful of PCs will mine just as many bitcoins as an army of super computers. The only reason that high computing power is required is the price of bitcoin. The higher the price, the more profitable mining becomes and the more people get into mining.
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Old 20th July 2020, 08:47 AM   #755
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The only reason that high computing power is required is the price of bitcoin.
Isn't it rather because it's becoming harder to mind them, by design?
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Old 20th July 2020, 10:31 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
That statement proves beyond any doubt you know nothing about Bitcoin or those who trade it.

Meanwhile, Since March 14th I've made enough profit trading BTC and 2 other alt coins to purchase home #4 from the proceeds. Not too shabby I think since it takes the average person between 15 and 30 years to buy one with payments. I don't know if that would be considered smart or not but I do know if someone had the opportunity to do the same and didn't, that wouldn't be very smart.

Chris B.
Why would you want 4 homes? Are you renting out the extras? Also to make enough profit in a few months to buy a home you must already have a large amount of money to play with.

In any case, congrats on the earnings
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Old 20th July 2020, 10:38 AM   #757
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I guess the question I have that always comes back up:

What is the purpose of Bitcoin?

It seems there is a lot of interest in it as a investment. The volatility means that money can be made (or lost) quite quickly. People that got in in the very early days have made tidy fortunes. Seems to work fine for that, there is no shortage of people trading it. In that regard, it seems to work well enough.

It strikes me that using Bitcoin as an investment vehicle dwarfs its use as an exchange currency. The same volatility that makes it so attractive as a high risk, high reward investment makes it undesirable as a currency. Keeping bitcoin in your wallet is inherently risky. If you want to make a transaction, it makes sense to keep any value in bitcoin as shortly as possible, and convert it back to a less volatile medium immediately. Keeping money tied up in bitcoin for any length of time means accepting the risk of the volatile market.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:21 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Isn't it rather because it's becoming harder to mind them, by design?
No.

The more computers that are used to mine bitcoin, the harder it becomes for an individual computer to mine for a bitcoin. Since the rate at which new blocks are mined is designed to be constant, it becomes just simple mathematics.
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Old 20th July 2020, 03:30 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What is the purpose of Bitcoin?
It's design purpose is to be transmitted in any quantity across a hostile internet environment from almost any point on the globe to another part of the globe without the need (or interference) of a third party.

Good honest folks living in a liberal democracy probably don't have much need for such a facility but it is available if they want it.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Keeping bitcoin in your wallet is inherently risky. If you want to make a transaction, it makes sense to keep any value in bitcoin as shortly as possible, and convert it back to a less volatile medium immediately. Keeping money tied up in bitcoin for any length of time means accepting the risk of the volatile market.
The bitcoin price chart suggests the exact opposite. Apart from those who bought at the price peak in 2017, anybody who has "hodled" their bitcoins has had an investment that has not only kept its value remarkably well (over the long term) but has made a spectacular profit once they sold them.
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Old 21st July 2020, 05:14 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post


The bitcoin price chart suggests the exact opposite. Apart from those who bought at the price peak in 2017, anybody who has "hodled" their bitcoins has had an investment that has not only kept its value remarkably well (over the long term) but has made a spectacular profit once they sold them.
That's my point. If you're treating bitcoin like a long term investment, you probably wouldn't be buying in at the peak in 2017. But what if you're trying to use it as an everyday currency during these fluctuations?

Say you wanted to buy a pack of socks using bitcoin during the peak 2017, and you kept the spare change in bitcoin after the transaction, you might find that, months later, the value has evaporated. Or maybe you find it has grown, which is nice. But that kind of volatility is not what most people expect with spending money. You can't HODL when you need socks today, and if the bictoin price isn't favorable, you're either forced to realize the loss or you're not getting your socks.

Unless you're HODL gang, it's probably best to move your spending money out of bitcoin as soon as the transaction is done.

Your point about borderless transfer of money is well taken though. An international, internet based currency is probably a tremendous convenience.
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