ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 13th November 2017, 03:20 PM   #1
simonxlong
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 181
Moments when faith can seem more reasonable than reason

My wife died of cervical cancer at the end of August after fighting it for three years, and itís been rough. Last night, I woke up in bed and knew someone was there in the room with me. I sat up and my wife was standing there in the middle of the room looking at me and smiling. I was seeing ghost, but for just a few moments, an overwhelming feeling of peace and contentment hit me. Suddenly, everything was okay in the world again. Then I came fully awake, the room was dark, and no one was there. It was one of those dreams you have when youíre neither awake nor asleep, but somewhere in between.

Nonetheless, the experience was perhaps one of the most powerful emotional occurrences Iíve ever had. Months of restless sleep and nightmares have taken their toll, and this was the first time Iíve really felt okay in a while, even if it only lasted a few moments. It felt so real, and the idea that my wife was communicating from the other side, so to speak, to tell me she was okay felt very compelling. Of course, it was just a dream and I know that beyond a doubt, but for a little while I just let myself believe. I understand now, in a way I couldnít before, why someone is willing to sacrifice reason for faith. At this time, believing she is waiting in the afterlife is appealing, even if irrational.

Sorry if this is so analytical. Itís the only way I could bring myself to write it.
simonxlong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 05:09 PM   #2
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,570
I became very depressed after my Dad died. Then one night I had a dream of him. It wasn't a remarkable dream- in it he didn't tell me some great revelation or even express his love for me. It was just a snippet of what would have been an unexciting day to day conversation between us when he was alive. Yet when I woke up my depression was gone.

What we think we experience can have the same effects on our emotions as what we actually do experience. Why not- both are filtered through the same brain.

I am thrilled for you that your wife came back to visit you. I personally believe she was the wife you keep alive inside your brain as your memories and in your love. Those parts of her will never die for you no matter how intensely you miss her presence in your physical life. And those parts can still bring you peace and some relieve from the sadness.

I don't believe in an afterlife or that my Dad is waiting for me. But I do feel he lives on in the memories of those who knew him, in my own DNA, and in what he taught me. But I would never tell you that there cannot be an afterlife. How could I know for certain? If you do one day meet your wife again, tell her how wrong I was and have a wonderful time together.

Last edited by Giordano; 13th November 2017 at 05:22 PM.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 05:51 PM   #3
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
My wife died of cervical cancer at the end of August after fighting it for three years, and itís been rough. Last night, I woke up in bed and knew someone was there in the room with me. I sat up and my wife was standing there in the middle of the room looking at me and smiling. I was seeing ghost, but for just a few moments, an overwhelming feeling of peace and contentment hit me. Suddenly, everything was okay in the world again. Then I came fully awake, the room was dark, and no one was there. It was one of those dreams you have when youíre neither awake nor asleep, but somewhere in between.

Nonetheless, the experience was perhaps one of the most powerful emotional occurrences Iíve ever had. Months of restless sleep and nightmares have taken their toll, and this was the first time Iíve really felt okay in a while, even if it only lasted a few moments. It felt so real, and the idea that my wife was communicating from the other side, so to speak, to tell me she was okay felt very compelling. Of course, it was just a dream and I know that beyond a doubt, but for a little while I just let myself believe. I understand now, in a way I couldnít before, why someone is willing to sacrifice reason for faith. At this time, believing she is waiting in the afterlife is appealing, even if irrational.

Sorry if this is so analytical. Itís the only way I could bring myself to write it.
Sorry to hear of your loss.
You might consider attending a spiritualist church service, and if you go regularly for a period of time you might find you will get evidential messages from your wife.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 06:12 PM   #4
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,806
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Sorry to hear of your loss.
You might consider attending a spiritualist church service, and if you go regularly for a period of time you might find you will get evidential messages from your wife.
Once they learn enough about the who, how, when and why of her passing.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 06:15 PM   #5
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,938
I also am sorry to hear of your loss simonxlong.

As you can see however ^ if you leave the door open just a crack, the woo peddlers will swoop in.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 06:30 PM   #6
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I also am sorry to hear of your loss simonxlong.

As you can see however ^ if you leave the door open just a crack, the woo peddlers will swoop in.
I do not suppose the OP will actually go to a spiritualist church, but if he did and he received evidential messages, it would be very interesting to have him post them here.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 06:32 PM   #7
simonxlong
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 181
I suppose I wasn't being clear in my post. I don't believe in the afterlife. I believe when you die, you die. That's it, it's over. My point was that when you're really upset and hurting, it becomes much easier to accept the woo and to abandon rational thinking. Some part of you really, really wants gods and spirits to be real so that it's not just over. She's not just gone forever.

I guess what I was trying to say is that this experience has made me much more capable of understanding why people come to embrace religions and gods in a way and on a level that I just didn't have the frame of reference to understand before. They offer hope.

The part that makes it bad is that it's false hope. And trust me, when the woman you've been married to your entire adult life is begging you to give her too much morphine to make the pain stop, there is nothing worse than false hope.
simonxlong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 06:43 PM   #8
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,938
It was quite clear to me what you were saying simonxlong. Thanks.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 07:05 PM   #9
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,461
Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
My wife died of cervical cancer at the end of August after fighting it for three years, and itís been rough. Last night, I woke up in bed and knew someone was there in the room with me. I sat up and my wife was standing there in the middle of the room looking at me and smiling. I was seeing ghost, but for just a few moments, an overwhelming feeling of peace and contentment hit me. Suddenly, everything was okay in the world again. Then I came fully awake, the room was dark, and no one was there. It was one of those dreams you have when youíre neither awake nor asleep, but somewhere in between.

Nonetheless, the experience was perhaps one of the most powerful emotional occurrences Iíve ever had. Months of restless sleep and nightmares have taken their toll, and this was the first time Iíve really felt okay in a while, even if it only lasted a few moments. It felt so real, and the idea that my wife was communicating from the other side, so to speak, to tell me she was okay felt very compelling. Of course, it was just a dream and I know that beyond a doubt, but for a little while I just let myself believe. I understand now, in a way I couldnít before, why someone is willing to sacrifice reason for faith. At this time, believing she is waiting in the afterlife is appealing, even if irrational.

Sorry if this is so analytical. Itís the only way I could bring myself to write it.
I'm profoundly sorry for your loss.

I know about losing friends and loved ones without any chance of saying goodbye and any chance for emotional preparation. You get a phone call, or if you're there the person is alive one second and dead the next. You go into these things with your eyes open, but it's a weight that you carry for. the rest of your life.

Sometimes in quiet moments and in dreams, I feel those people inside me. I see them as they were in life.

I believe that these instances are manifestations of my mind and emotions, not any evidence of divinity.

I'm not writing this to put you down or negate your interpretation of your experience. If it brings you comfort there's nothing wrong with it. Everybody processes grief and loss in their own way and they are entitled to their experiences.

I would advise against going to any commercial entity with the intention of seeking clarification or guidance. The most likely outcome would be a lighter wallet with no lighter emotional burden.

Again, my deepest condolences.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 07:28 PM   #10
Pope130
Master Poster
 
Pope130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,572
My condolences on your loss simonxlong.

I had a similar experience a few years ago. I had a long talk with my mother, who had died some years before (cancer sucks) in a dream. I told her about where I had been, and what I had done since she died. She told me she approved, mostly, of my actions.

All in my head of course, but it did make me feel better.

Hang in there man, you will get better.
Pope130 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 11:27 PM   #11
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
I suppose I wasn't being clear in my post. I don't believe in the afterlife. I believe when you die, you die. That's it, it's over. My point was that when you're really upset and hurting, it becomes much easier to accept the woo and to abandon rational thinking. Some part of you really, really wants gods and spirits to be real so that it's not just over. She's not just gone forever.

I guess what I was trying to say is that this experience has made me much more capable of understanding why people come to embrace religions and gods in a way and on a level that I just didn't have the frame of reference to understand before. They offer hope.

The part that makes it bad is that it's false hope. And trust me, when the woman you've been married to your entire adult life is begging you to give her too much morphine to make the pain stop, there is nothing worse than false hope.
On this forum they keep talking to me about evidence, but you say you don't believe in an afterlife. I would ask you what evidence you have for that view.

If there is a spirit world then your wife is in a beautiful realm beyond your imagining, and she no longer has any pain. Don't you think that she would be bursting with the desire to tell you this, but if you don't go to a spiritualist church you will not give her the opportunity to do so.

Spiritualist churches do not charge fees they send round a voluntary collection plate. If you go for a few weeks you might get an evidential message.

Why not take the chance.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 11:37 PM   #12
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,643
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
On this forum they keep talking to me about evidence, but you say you don't believe in an afterlife. I would ask you what evidence you have for that view.

If there is a spirit world then your wife is in a beautiful realm beyond your imagining, and she no longer has any pain. Don't you think that she would be bursting with the desire to tell you this, but if you don't go to a spiritualist church you will not give her the opportunity to do so.

Spiritualist churches do not charge fees they send round a voluntary collection plate. If you go for a few weeks you might get an evidential message.

Why not take the chance.
I see no worthwhile evidence of an afterlife. If someone tells me it's real, it's their job to provide evidence. It's not my job to attempt to prove a negative.

As far as I'm concerned, you are peddling woo.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th November 2017, 11:50 PM   #13
SusanB-M1
Incurable Optimist
 
SusanB-M1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,435
Simonxlong

Many condolences for your loss and pain; and thank you for writing such a moving and thoughtful OP
SusanB-M1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 12:16 AM   #14
mikado
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,553
All I can do is add more condolences.
I think our brains are funny, I have had the experience of a just died much beloved pet jumping on my bed.
It was just as real as if it had genuinely happened.

I ma glad it gave you peace.
__________________
member formally known as Renmarkable.
mikado is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 12:29 AM   #15
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,461
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
On this forum they keep talking to me about evidence, but you say you don't believe in an afterlife. I would ask you what evidence you have for that view.

If there is a spirit world then your wife is in a beautiful realm beyond your imagining, and she no longer has any pain. Don't you think that she would be bursting with the desire to tell you this, but if you don't go to a spiritualist church you will not give her the opportunity to do so.

Spiritualist churches do not charge fees they send round a voluntary collection plate. If you go for a few weeks you might get an evidential message.

Why not take the chance.
I've checked out more than once, seriously - with medical intervention I made it back.

I saw no light or dead relatives or friends, and heard no heavenly choir.

I was gone, but the medicos brought me back.

I've discussed it with other guys that went through the same experience and not one of them experienced any afterlife, and more than one was a held religious beliefs.

I've read and heard of reports of near death experiences but not from anyone in my circle.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 11:04 AM   #16
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
I guess what I was trying to say is that this experience has made me much more capable of understanding why people come to embrace religions and gods in a way and on a level that I just didn't have the frame of reference to understand before. They offer hope.
This really came through in your remarkable post. Well said and said well.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 11:38 AM   #17
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,344
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Sorry to hear of your loss.
You might consider attending a spiritualist church service, and if you go regularly for a period of time you might find you will get evidential messages from your wife.
Inappropriate crap. Almost as if you didn't bother reading the wonderful OP, and just use any opportunity you can find to splatter your woo onto the forum, however distasteful the timing.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 12:11 PM   #18
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,609
Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
My wife died of cervical cancer at the end of August after fighting it for three years, and itís been rough. Last night, I woke up in bed and knew someone was there in the room with me. I sat up and my wife was standing there in the middle of the room looking at me and smiling. I was seeing ghost, but for just a few moments, an overwhelming feeling of peace and contentment hit me. Suddenly, everything was okay in the world again. Then I came fully awake, the room was dark, and no one was there. It was one of those dreams you have when youíre neither awake nor asleep, but somewhere in between.

Nonetheless, the experience was perhaps one of the most powerful emotional occurrences Iíve ever had. Months of restless sleep and nightmares have taken their toll, and this was the first time Iíve really felt okay in a while, even if it only lasted a few moments. It felt so real, and the idea that my wife was communicating from the other side, so to speak, to tell me she was okay felt very compelling. Of course, it was just a dream and I know that beyond a doubt, but for a little while I just let myself believe. I understand now, in a way I couldnít before, why someone is willing to sacrifice reason for faith. At this time, believing she is waiting in the afterlife is appealing, even if irrational.

Sorry if this is so analytical. Itís the only way I could bring myself to write it.


I am so very sorry for your loss simonxlong.

I lost my first wife to breast cancer many years ago, so I hear where you are coming from and understand the things you have been going through... the sleepless nights, the little things around the house that keep reminding you of her years later, the music and movies that you both enjoyed together, or when a woman wearing your wife's favourite perfume passes you in the street, or when you catch a glimpse of someone who resembles her, or you pass or go into a restaurant you both used to eat at. Sometimes, the little, subtle things can be more unsettling that the bigger things.

I wish I could say that time heals all wounds, but I would be lying.... it doesn't, all it does it makes the hurt and the sorrow easier to deal with. The people you love are always with you in your memories; they may fade but they are not extinguished.


* * * * * *

@Scorpion: DO NOT REPLY TO MY POST. I am not interested in hearing your woo-peddling garbage. Your posts in this thread have been inappropriate and I would guess, unwanted by the OP. Just stop posting in this thread and making a complete asshat of yourself. No-one here is interested in your woo.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 01:58 PM   #19
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,938
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I've checked out more than once, seriously - with medical intervention I made it back.

I saw no light or dead relatives or friends, and heard no heavenly choir.

I was gone, but the medicos brought me back.

I've discussed it with other guys that went through the same experience and not one of them experienced any afterlife, and more than one was a held religious beliefs.

I've read and heard of reports of near death experiences but not from anyone in my circle.

My experience also. I have had 3 near deaths and didn't experience any of the: Ascending to some wonderful place, or what would have been likely given my lack of faith, descending to some not so wonderful place. It was just nothingness, or more correctly not even that, as I had no recollections of any sensations.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 07:33 PM   #20
ChristianProgressive
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,498
Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
Of course, it was just a dream and I know that beyond a doubt...
There is no possible way you can "know" that, certainly not "beyond a doubt".

Science has no place commenting on the metaphysical. It's not a proper subject for science.
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th November 2017, 11:33 PM   #21
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,609
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
There is no possible way you can "know" that, certainly not "beyond a doubt".

Science has no place commenting on the metaphysical. It's not a proper subject for science.
"Science" wasn't commenting on the metaphysical, the OP was commenting on his personal experience.

This is all we need, more bloody woo peddling? Don''t insult the intelligence of people here by posting your inappropriate crap.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 09:03 AM   #22
ChristianProgressive
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,498
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
"Science" wasn't commenting on the metaphysical, the OP was commenting on his personal experience.

This is all we need, more bloody woo peddling? Don''t insult the intelligence of people here by posting your inappropriate crap.
It is entirely appropriate to point out that there is so possible way to "know beyond doubt" that an afterlife does not exist. It is not scientifically testable. Therefore the OP still has room and reason to hope, which should be encouraged.
ChristianProgressive is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 10:25 AM   #23
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,168
simonxlong: Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. Please accept my sincere condolences on the loss of your wife.

I can't imagine the pain of losing your spouse but can see the comfort that would come from having dreams of your spouse. Just reading your post has had an impact on my emotions, the depths you must have ventured to are not even in my understanding. I'm glad to hear that your brain is working hard to help you out. That is very hopeful.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 11:51 AM   #24
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,609
Moved my post to here so as not to disrupt or infect this thread with religious woo

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...53&postcount=1
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

Last edited by smartcooky; 15th November 2017 at 12:00 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 02:41 PM   #25
simonxlong
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 181
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
It is entirely appropriate to point out that there is so possible way to "know beyond doubt" that an afterlife does not exist. It is not scientifically testable. Therefore the OP still has room and reason to hope, which should be encouraged.
I wasn't saying that I knew beyond a doubt that the afterlife doesn't exist. What I was referring to is that I knew it was a dream and nothing more. It doesn't matter how badly I wanted it to be more at the moment, it wasn't.
simonxlong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 03:20 PM   #26
jenski
Scholar
 
jenski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Sorry to hear of your loss.
You might consider attending a spiritualist church service, and if you go regularly for a period of time you might find you will get evidential messages from your wife.
Unless she's already reincarnated.
__________________
"You ought to be in school! Not chasing after ancient civilizations!" - Zap Rowsdower
jenski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th November 2017, 05:13 PM   #27
ShamelessGit
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 13
Faith is life

It is impossible to derive any ought statement from a purely rational or material basis. This follows pretty clearly from the is-ought logical fallacy. But what is a living creature, if not a sum of value judgement? If you didn't believe that there were things that you ought to do, then you would allow yourself to die in apathy. So life is impossible for a thinking organism without faith. Even if you are an atheist, you have faith in the value of your sensory perceptions, such as pain and pleasure. Therefore, from a strictly logical perspective, the only two options are nihilism (it is not possible to prove any kind of morality or purpose), or a worldview built on rationally unjustifiable faith in a set of values. There is no other logically consistent alternative. Unfortunately, most people don't think it through. The atheists and skeptics still argue that such a thing as morality exists, and the theists try to prove their faith by reason. Both are wrong.
ShamelessGit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 10:54 AM   #28
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,806
Originally Posted by jenski View Post
Unless she's already reincarnated.
Steady on.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 11:29 AM   #29
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,609
Originally Posted by ShamelessGit View Post
It is impossible to derive any ought statement from a purely rational or material basis. This follows pretty clearly from the is-ought logical fallacy. But what is a living creature, if not a sum of value judgement? If you didn't believe that there were things that you ought to do, then you would allow yourself to die in apathy. So life is impossible for a thinking organism without faith. Even if you are an atheist, you have faith in the value of your sensory perceptions, such as pain and pleasure. Therefore, from a strictly logical perspective, the only two options are nihilism (it is not possible to prove any kind of morality or purpose), or a worldview built on rationally unjustifiable faith in a set of values. There is no other logically consistent alternative. Unfortunately, most people don't think it through. The atheists and skeptics still argue that such a thing as morality exists, and the theists try to prove their faith by reason. Both are wrong.

Word Salad or Gobbledeygook.... its one of them but I can't work out which.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 11:39 AM   #30
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,344
Originally Posted by ShamelessGit View Post
It is impossible to derive any ought statement from a purely rational or material basis. This follows pretty clearly from the is-ought logical fallacy. But what is a living creature, if not a sum of value judgement? If you didn't believe that there were things that you ought to do, then you would allow yourself to die in apathy. So life is impossible for a thinking organism without faith. Even if you are an atheist, you have faith in the value of your sensory perceptions, such as pain and pleasure. Therefore, from a strictly logical perspective, the only two options are nihilism (it is not possible to prove any kind of morality or purpose), or a worldview built on rationally unjustifiable faith in a set of values. There is no other logically consistent alternative. Unfortunately, most people don't think it through. The atheists and skeptics still argue that such a thing as morality exists, and the theists try to prove their faith by reason. Both are wrong.
Someone go through this drivel line-by-line, please. We've seen it so many times before that I just can't summon up the enthusiasm.

Actually, on second thoughts..........it's miles off topic, and utterly inappropriate in this thread. Let's not feed the attention seeker any attention here.
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.

Last edited by MikeG; 16th November 2017 at 11:41 AM.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 12:13 PM   #31
Peregrinus
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
It is entirely appropriate to point out that there is so possible way to "know beyond doubt" that an afterlife does not exist. It is not scientifically testable. Therefore the OP still has room and reason to hope, which should be encouraged.
Pascal's Wager for Masochists, eh?
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 12:13 PM   #32
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 14,168
Originally Posted by ShamelessGit View Post
It is impossible to derive any ought statement from a purely rational or material basis. This follows pretty clearly from the is-ought logical fallacy. But what is a living creature, if not a sum of value judgement? If you didn't believe that there were things that you ought to do, then you would allow yourself to die in apathy. So life is impossible for a thinking organism without faith. Even if you are an atheist, you have faith in the value of your sensory perceptions, such as pain and pleasure. Therefore, from a strictly logical perspective, the only two options are nihilism (it is not possible to prove any kind of morality or purpose), or a worldview built on rationally unjustifiable faith in a set of values. There is no other logically consistent alternative. Unfortunately, most people don't think it through. The atheists and skeptics still argue that such a thing as morality exists, and the theists try to prove their faith by reason. Both are wrong.
User name checks out.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 12:15 PM   #33
Thermal
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 2,026
simonxlong, please accept my condolences. I cannot imagine the depth of your loss.

Regarding your experience: I tend to cut mystic-enthusiasts a lot of slack for their beliefs. That feeling you describe can be so powerful that it can consume you (I've had different experiences but with similar feelings). Not all of those people are stupid or charlatans. For a lot of woosters, those feelings are the most real thing in the world to them.
__________________

Previously known as MostlyDead. Feeling better now.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 12:20 PM   #34
Peregrinus
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
There is no possible way you can "know" that, certainly not "beyond a doubt".

Science has no place commenting on the metaphysical. It's not a proper subject for science.
We are not talking about science here but about a deeply personal moment shared with us by a thoughtful person. There is no possible way you can know what he does not know. And his offering of his own thoughts on the matter cannot be discounted merely because they do not seem to reflect your own.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 12:27 PM   #35
Peregrinus
Muse
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 975
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
On this forum they keep talking to me about evidence, but you say you don't believe in an afterlife. I would ask you what evidence you have for that view.
Despite the deeply personal nature of Simon's experience and his discussion of it, evidence is not part of the matter. In judging a matter, any applicable evidence would be the same regardless of the person viewing/considering it. None of us, however interested, talented or determined, can enter Simon's life & his events much less his evaluations of them. Simon described the event and his feelings about it. Respect the man's feeling for what they are and quit trying to put inappropriate science or even problematic spirituality on it.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 12:48 PM   #36
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,596
Condolences to simonxlong.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 12:59 PM   #37
Thor 2
Master Poster
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 2,938
Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
It is entirely appropriate to point out that there is so possible way to "know beyond doubt" that an afterlife does not exist. It is not scientifically testable. Therefore the OP still has room and reason to hope, which should be encouraged.

What we know is that no evidence of non physical life has been found. What we know is if the physical brain of a person is damaged, the ability of the brain to function is compromised. The conclusion that conscious life cannot exist outside a physical brain is a logical next step.

The OP can gain encouragement from knowing, with significant certainty, his partner is not writhing in agony in some place of eternal punishment, where Christians would most likely put her.
__________________
There are billions of gods. One or more in the mind of every theist.
Thor 2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 09:19 PM   #38
Sparhafoc
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: กรุงเทพ
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
On this forum they keep talking to me about evidence, but you say you don't believe in an afterlife. I would ask you what evidence you have for that view.
How do you expect evidence for someone not believing?

It's this easy - do you believe in Thor? No? Then give me evidence for that view.

See? Not believing something is based on there NOT being evidence for it.

So when someone proposes that X quantity is real, the onus is wholly on them to establish it by furnishing evidence, and for the sane of mind, it is more than rigorous to not accept such a claim until evidence is provided.

However, when it comes to after-deaths, there are a host of problems, from the way the universe works, down to the fact that humans only really seem to 'see' human ghosts, but somehow there aren't squillions of ant ghosts viewed daily.

We know human psychology produces illusions, but we assuredly do not know how magically mini-me's can survive death.


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If there is a spirit world then your wife is in a beautiful realm beyond your imagining, and she no longer has any pain. Don't you think that she would be bursting with the desire to tell you this, but if you don't go to a spiritualist church you will not give her the opportunity to do so.
If there was such a place and people lived after they died, and there was a way in which they could communicate with the living... why would they need a bunch of snake-oil salesmen to facilitate that?


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualist churches do not charge fees they send round a voluntary collection plate. If you go for a few weeks you might get an evidential message.
You misunderstand the concept of evidence, and your sentence is talking out of both sides of your mouth - a 'voluntary collection plate' is a fee.


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Why not take the chance.
The chance of what? The illegible set of assertions underpinning your belief?
Sparhafoc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th November 2017, 10:16 PM   #39
Kumar
Penultimate Amazing
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 13,857
Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
My wife died of cervical cancer at the end of August after fighting it for three years, and itís been rough. Last night, I woke up in bed and knew someone was there in the room with me. I sat up and my wife was standing there in the middle of the room looking at me and smiling. I was seeing ghost, but for just a few moments, an overwhelming feeling of peace and contentment hit me. Suddenly, everything was okay in the world again. Then I came fully awake, the room was dark, and no one was there. It was one of those dreams you have when youíre neither awake nor asleep, but somewhere in between.

Nonetheless, the experience was perhaps one of the most powerful emotional occurrences Iíve ever had. Months of restless sleep and nightmares have taken their toll, and this was the first time Iíve really felt okay in a while, even if it only lasted a few moments. It felt so real, and the idea that my wife was communicating from the other side, so to speak, to tell me she was okay felt very compelling. Of course, it was just a dream and I know that beyond a doubt, but for a little while I just let myself believe. I understand now, in a way I couldnít before, why someone is willing to sacrifice reason for faith. At this time, believing she is waiting in the afterlife is appealing, even if irrational.

Sorry if this is so analytical. Itís the only way I could bring myself to write it.
Sorry for the loss. I condole. Wife was wife. Nearest to you. Since recent & most emotional, relevant dreams can also be felt as more realistic. Some Biochemical imbalance may also be a probable reason as indicated in one system. I tried that and that discontinue such dreams. Do not know about supernatural-possibility so can not comment on it on either side.
__________________
To try reach to Absolute & Final(A&F) is my honest desire. Let the things be A&F or die in themselves, if odd. Just Logical & Equanimious Discussions, No commitments.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:09 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.