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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 16th July 2017, 01:48 PM   #161
jimbob
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Lies after lies from the Trump family and Trump's lawyer to cover-up Trump Jr.'s Russia meeting scandal.

Quote:
Warner: 'Unbelievable' Trump wasn't told about meeting

Washington (CNN)The top Democrat on the Senate intelligence committee said Sunday he did not believe no one told President Donald Trump about a meeting last year between top members of his campaign and a Russian lawyer.

Virginia Sen. Mark Warner said in an interview on CNN's "State of the Union" that he wanted to question everyone involved in the meeting as part of the committee's investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election.

Trump Jr., in a statement, initially described the meeting as primarily about adoption policy before conceding in a subsequent statement that he had agreed to the meeting in the hope he might get damaging information on Clinton

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/16/politi...-jr/index.html
Time to put in the timeline again...
No new additions

Mar 19 Podesta email hacked
Apr 19 DCLeaks.com registered
May 3 Trump becomes presumptive nominee
June 3 Goldstone contacts Trump Jr. to setup meeting which promises to discuss Clinton
June 7 17:16 Don Jr. confirms meeting w/ Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya
June 7 21:13Trump Sr promises press conf the next week with Clinton dirt
June 8 Trump posts link to DCLeaks
June 9 Trump Jr, Kushner, Manafort meet with Russian operative
June 12 Assange announces Clinton emails
June 27 Hacked emails posted to DCLeaks
July 11 Trump/Manafort nix pro-Ukranian plank in GOP platform (and lie about it)
Late JulyUnusual activity noticed between Russian bank and Trump server
Aug 21 Roger Stone writes "it will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel"
Oct -7 Pussygate video released
Oct 7 Wikileaks releases Podesta emails (an hour later)
2017 - MayDOJ drops money laundering case against client of Natalia Veselnitskaya
July-08Don Jr issues statement* saying the meeting was about orphanages
July-09 NYT prepares to release story about the meeting supposedly about dirt on Clinton
July-09 Donald Trump Jr. issues a new statement* changing his story from less than 24 hours earlier, and accepting that it was about getting dirt on clinton but that nothing came of it:
July-10Don Jr hires lawyer
July-12 Democrats ask questions about the DoJ dropping the money lanudering case

* " “It was a short introductory meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to stop by. We primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children that was active and popular with American families years ago and was since ended by the Russian government, but it was not a campaign issue at the time and there was no follow up… I was asked to attend the meeting by an acquaintance, but was not told the name of the person I would be meeting with beforehand.”"


*“I was asked to have a meeting by an acquaintance I knew from the 2013 Miss Universe pageant with an individual who I was told might have information helpful to the campaign. I was not told her name prior to the meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to attend, but told them nothing of the substance. We had a meeting in June 2016. After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton. Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information. She then changed subjects and began discussing the adoption of Russian children and mentioned the Magnitsky Act. It became clear to me that this was the true agenda all along and that the claims of potentially helpful information were a pretext for the meeting. I interrupted and advised her that my father was not an elected official, but rather a private citizen, and that her comments and concerns were better addressed if and when he held public office. The meeting lasted approximately 20 to 30 minutes. As it ended, my acquaintance apologized for taking up our time. That was the end of it and there was no further contact or follow-up of any kind. My father knew nothing of the meeting or these events.”




So yes, pretty unbelievable
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Last edited by jimbob; 16th July 2017 at 02:06 PM. Reason: formatting
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Old 16th July 2017, 01:53 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
Thing of value? Who determines that this non information has value. He was quite vague in these emails, it's clear he was interested in what she had to say. He didn't even know her name. You've got nothing.
Actually you just contradicted yourself: it was potentially valuable enough that he said "I love it" and went to the meeting.

You are entirely desperate.
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Old 16th July 2017, 01:54 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Time to put in the timeline again...
Would it be possible to just colour the new lines? All this stuff is getting confusing. What's new this time?
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Old 16th July 2017, 01:55 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Would it be possible to just colour the new lines? All this stuff is getting confusing. What's new this time?

Nothing new, just highlighting
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:00 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
Thing of value? Who determines that this non information has value.
In economics we call it revealed preferences. The actions he took demonstrates he found the potential information valuable.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:00 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Lol, your poll is typical liberal BS

https://theconservativetreehouse.com
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:04 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Actually you just contradicted yourself: it was potentially valuable enough that he said "I love it" and went to the meeting.

You are entirely desperate.
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?
Go ahead and put a number on it.

And you say I'm desperate? Lol

You couldn't be more ridiculous.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:04 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol, your poll is typical liberal BS

https://theconservativetreehouse.com
Lol, your link is typical conservative BS.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:05 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?
Go ahead and put a number on it.

And you say I'm desperate? Lol

You couldn't be more ridiculous.
Greater than 1 dollar.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:13 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?
I'd say agreeing to the meeting is more relevant than saying, "I love it."

Information often has value. That's why insider trading is a crime.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:27 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Actually you just contradicted yourself: it was potentially valuable enough that he said "I love it" and went to the meeting.

Maybe Russian Nothingburgers are Junior's favorite food. How could he pass up that offer?

Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?

It pretty clearly indicates that Junior thought it would be valuable.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:30 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol, your poll is typical liberal BS

https://theconservativetreehouse.com

How amusing when even Trump's own right-backed Rasmussen poll shows a decline since he took office.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 16th July 2017 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:34 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Maybe Russian Nothingburgers are Junior's favorite food. How could he pass up that offer?
If that's their tagline, I know another burger company who'd like to sue them for it!

Quote:
It pretty clearly indicates that Junior thought it would be valuable.
You don't know that!! It could be that he loved the Russians' boldness in their approach. Maybe he just met them to troll them. You can't prove he didn't! You can't prove intent!
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:35 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?

It proves that Trump Jr. sought to collude with the Russians, and he said that "he loved it,"which is illegal and there is nothing you can say about it because we have Trump Jr.'s own emails as proof.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:49 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Time to put in the timeline again...
No new additions

Mar 19 Podesta email hacked
Apr 19 DCLeaks.com registered
May 3 Trump becomes presumptive nominee
June 3 Goldstone contacts Trump Jr. to setup meeting which promises to discuss Clinton
June 7 17:16 Don Jr. confirms meeting w/ Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya
June 7 21:13Trump Sr promises press conf the next week with Clinton dirt
June 8 Trump posts link to DCLeaks
June 9 Trump Jr, Kushner, Manafort meet with Russian operative
June 12 Assange announces Clinton emails
June 27 Hacked emails posted to DCLeaks
July 11 Trump/Manafort nix pro-Ukranian plank in GOP platform (and lie about it)
Late JulyUnusual activity noticed between Russian bank and Trump server
Aug 21 Roger Stone writes "it will soon be Podesta's time in the barrel"
Oct -7 Pussygate video released
Oct 7 Wikileaks releases Podesta emails (an hour later)
2017 - MayDOJ drops money laundering case against client of Natalia Veselnitskaya
July-08Don Jr issues statement* saying the meeting was about orphanages
July-09 NYT prepares to release story about the meeting supposedly about dirt on Clinton
July-09 Donald Trump Jr. issues a new statement* changing his story from less than 24 hours earlier, and accepting that it was about getting dirt on clinton but that nothing came of it:
July-10Don Jr hires lawyer
July-12 Democrats ask questions about the DoJ dropping the money lanudering case

* " “It was a short introductory meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to stop by. We primarily discussed a program about the adoption of Russian children that was active and popular with American families years ago and was since ended by the Russian government, but it was not a campaign issue at the time and there was no follow up… I was asked to attend the meeting by an acquaintance, but was not told the name of the person I would be meeting with beforehand.”"


*“I was asked to have a meeting by an acquaintance I knew from the 2013 Miss Universe pageant with an individual who I was told might have information helpful to the campaign. I was not told her name prior to the meeting. I asked Jared and Paul to attend, but told them nothing of the substance. We had a meeting in June 2016. After pleasantries were exchanged, the woman stated that she had information that individuals connected to Russia were funding the Democratic National Committee and supporting Ms. Clinton. Her statements were vague, ambiguous and made no sense. No details or supporting information was provided or even offered. It quickly became clear that she had no meaningful information. She then changed subjects and began discussing the adoption of Russian children and mentioned the Magnitsky Act. It became clear to me that this was the true agenda all along and that the claims of potentially helpful information were a pretext for the meeting. I interrupted and advised her that my father was not an elected official, but rather a private citizen, and that her comments and concerns were better addressed if and when he held public office. The meeting lasted approximately 20 to 30 minutes. As it ended, my acquaintance apologized for taking up our time. That was the end of it and there was no further contact or follow-up of any kind. My father knew nothing of the meeting or these events.”
So yes, pretty unbelievable

Yes indeed!! As multiple investigations continue, I expect more negative evidence to be revealed. The lies just keep flowing and flowing from the White House and it is clear that Trump Sr. was aware that Trump Jr. and his team were colluding with the Russians.

And now, disapproval of Trump's performance among Independents is growing.

Quote:
Trump Fails To Reach Beyond Base As Independents' Disapproval Grows

President Trump's support among independent voters has eroded since he took office. Though he still clings to a loyal base of supporters, his overall disapproval among Americans has reached record highs, according to a new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll.

http://www.npr.org/2017/06/28/534602...approval-grows

Last edited by skyeagle409; 16th July 2017 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:55 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
while at the same time pissing on Germany and the UK
That may (allegedly) be a sign of affection.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:56 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
Yes indeed!! As multiple investigations continue, I expect more negative evidence to be revealed. The lies just keep flowing and flowing from the White House and it is clear that Trump Sr. was aware that Trump Jr. and his team were colluding with the Russians.

And now, disapproval of Trump's performance among Independents is growing.
The drop in support among Independents is very encouraging. Trump's continued support among Republicans is absolutely terrifying but not really surprising.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:57 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?
Go ahead and put a number on it.

And you say I'm desperate? Lol

You couldn't be more ridiculous.
Sure seems that way. Maybe you're just faking desperation?
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:59 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?
Do you know what "value" means? A thing you value is literally something you like.

Quote:
You couldn't be more ridiculous.
And you couldn't be more desperate. You were literally dancing last Novembre and now your side is about to lose big time.
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Old 16th July 2017, 02:59 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
Thing of value? Who determines that this non information has value.
Donald Trump Jr. determined that the information had value. Otherwise why did he, Manafort and Kushner in the middle of a busy campaign schedule take the meeting?

Campaigns PAY BIG MONEY for opposition research. There was clearly an offer from a foreign national of something of value. This really isn't in question.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:00 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
The drop in support among Independents is very encouraging. Trump's continued support among Republicans is absolutely terrifying but not really surprising.
The marriage of convenience between Trump stooges and Putin stooges seems pretty solid to me.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:01 PM   #182
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In the context of the statute, I'm pretty sure that "valuable" has to be something that can be sold for money.


I suspect they were looking for deal making for lifting of sanctions. That sort of deal making might itself be illegal, but even then I'm not certain. Unless Donald Trump (Sr.) agreed to it, then it's just a bunch of folks yapping.

It looks pretty sleazy, but it isn't impeachment material.


ETA: Yet.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:05 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In the context of the statute, I'm pretty sure that "valuable" has to be something that can be sold for money.
Information is very often sold for money.

Quote:
It looks pretty sleazy, but it isn't impeachment material.
Doesn't it hurt, sitting on that fence like that?
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:13 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In the context of the statute, I'm pretty sure that "valuable" has to be something that can be sold for money.

I suspect they were looking for deal making for lifting of sanctions. That sort of deal making might itself be illegal, but even then I'm not certain. Unless Donald Trump (Sr.) agreed to it, then it's just a bunch of folks yapping.

It looks pretty sleazy, but it isn't impeachment material.

ETA: Yet.
Again, information is sold every day. There is no question that they were being offered something of value. Any way you look at it. It was at least an attempt to collude with the Russians. They went to that meeting hoping to get dirt on Hillary Clinton from a source they knew was coming from Russian sources.

As for Impeachment, that is a political question, not so much a legal one. Trump Jr. confessed to a crime. But I doubt this justice department will pursue charges.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:15 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Saying he loved it is why you think it has value?
Go ahead and put a number on it.

And you say I'm desperate? Lol

You couldn't be more ridiculous.
Here's one way to put a value on it: How much did the Trump campaign pay for other oppo research?

Another way: If you had dirt on Hillary that could cost her the election and your only interest was profit, how much would you ask the Trump campaign? If you were the campaign head, what would be your limit for that kind of information?
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:15 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
It proves that Trump Jr. sought to collude with the Russians, and he said that "he loved it,"which is illegal and there is nothing you can say about it because we have Trump Jr.'s own emails as proof.
Even allowing for gushing exaggeration we still have "I like it". "It" being "what you say it is", and we know what Goldstone said it was.

What we don't know, of course, is what transpired at the meeting. It apprently didn't provide the "dirt" Trump had promised for the following week, but that's all we the general public know. The interpreter knows a lot more : has anybody tracked him/her down yet?

Assuming the interpreter was Russian there are now three Russians who can claim what they like about what occurred, with nothing to contradict them except Donald Jr's word - which is to say, nothing at all. Talk about giving hostages to fortune. If the Dems really did engineer this I am in awe.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:25 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In the context of the statute, I'm pretty sure that "valuable" has to be something that can be sold for money.


I suspect they were looking for deal making for lifting of sanctions. That sort of deal making might itself be illegal, but even then I'm not certain. Unless Donald Trump (Sr.) agreed to it, then it's just a bunch of folks yapping.

It looks pretty sleazy, but it isn't impeachment material.


ETA: Yet.
I have earlier posted a link to a judgement where getting information was considered to be "of value" In the case discussed, the value was small.

Lawyers have pointed out that the phrase was almost certainly chosen to be deliberately wide so that it would be harder to find a loophole and get round the intent of the law.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:46 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Here's one way to put a value on it: How much did the Trump campaign pay for other oppo research?

Another way: If you had dirt on Hillary that could cost her the election and your only interest was profit, how much would you ask the Trump campaign? If you were the campaign head, what would be your limit for that kind of information?
It could easily be worth millions. There are Google ads for companies specializing in opposition research. Logger's suggestion that it wouldn't be considered something of value is risible.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:52 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Here's one way to put a value on it: How much did the Trump campaign pay for other oppo research?
Unless InfoWars is paywalled, squat.

In logger's philosophy, if you can't put a value on something it has no value. It's a bleak philosophy to my mind, but prevalent in the modern right.

Donald Jr didn't like a prospect because he thought it was of no value, nor did he get himself, Kushner and Manafort to a meeting at the height of the campaign just to fill time.

Quote:
Another way: If you had dirt on Hillary that could cost her the election and your only interest was profit, how much would you ask the Trump campaign?
Speaking for myself, I'm anybody's for five million euros clean and clear. Greed is what messes these things up. That and lawyers, of course.
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:53 PM   #190
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It could easily be worth millions. There are Google ads for companies specializing in opposition research. Logger's suggestion that it wouldn't be considered something of value is risible.
Yup, if logger's answer is $0 just so he can say the law doesn't apply, he shouldn't be calling anyone else "desperate."
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Old 16th July 2017, 03:55 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I have earlier posted a link to a judgement where getting information was considered to be "of value" In the case discussed, the value was small.

Lawyers have pointed out that the phrase was almost certainly chosen to be deliberately wide so that it would be harder to find a loophole and get round the intent of the law.
Please, would it be possible for you to re-post that link? I'd like to have it handy when engaged in other debates. Thanks!
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Old 16th July 2017, 04:04 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Unless InfoWars is paywalled, squat.


And of course, The Donald does his own oppo research on twitter (and possibly 4chan?), so that's free, too.
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Old 16th July 2017, 04:20 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Yup, if logger's answer is $0 just so he can say the law doesn't apply, he shouldn't be calling anyone else "desperate."
I know, it's funny. But when people are in spin mode they'll grasp at any straw they can.

As someone who has sold a whole lot of nothing in my life from warranty service to advertising to databases I know that nothing can bring big bucks.

That DJTjr showed up with Manafort the campaign manager and Kushner demonstrates very clearly that JR was excited to procure this information. So it was considered valuable.
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Old 16th July 2017, 04:23 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In the context of the statute, I'm pretty sure that "valuable" has to be something that can be sold for money.

I seriously doubt the statute is quite as materialistic as that. Seems like an entirely too-obvious loophole.

ETA: Imagine accepting "an address and a time" in exchange for policy. Nothing "valuable" in that, but when you go to that address at that time, oh hey... look... a foreign sports car. It's ridiculous to argue such a scenario would be entirely legal, even according to the statute as written.

Spirit of the law, not letter.

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Old 16th July 2017, 04:49 PM   #195
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Googling the phrase "anything of value" brings this:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/anything-of-value/

It is clearly talking about material value. Money.

I have assumed that the statute everyone is talking about these days uses the same interpretation, but I haven't actually seen the statute.
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Old 16th July 2017, 05:00 PM   #196
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Speaking of Alan Dershowitz:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/al...rticle/2628810

(For those not wanting to click, Dershowitz explains why "anything of value" cannot include information.)

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean no crime was committed. Why would the Russian meet with Trump representatives offering to release this dirt of Hillary Clinton? Forget fine print in the campaign finance law for a moment. Let's assume they had this dirt, and they want Trump to win. Why would they call a meeting? Just leak it. No need to get Paul Manafort in a room.

Clearly, the Russians wanted something.

Whatever it was they wanted, if the Trump people offered it, that could be a crime. If there was some sort of quid pro quo, I don't know what statute would cover it, but it sounds like the kind of thing that somebody somewhere would have written a law against it.

Bob Mueller will be following this as far as he possibly can, I'm confident.
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Old 16th July 2017, 05:05 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post


And of course, The Donald does his own oppo research on twitter (and possibly 4chan?), so that's free, too.
As are the voices in his head and the words he hears tumbling from his own lips until he hears a cheer, at which point he repeats a phrase or two with emphasis thereby making it fact in what passes for Trump's mind.

"Obama founded ISIS". A defining performance.
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Old 16th July 2017, 05:07 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Googling the phrase "anything of value" brings this:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/anything-of-value/

It is clearly talking about material value. Money.

I have assumed that the statute everyone is talking about these days uses the same interpretation, but I haven't actually seen the statute.
Do you question that negative or damaging information about a competitor in business or a political opponent has a financial value?
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Old 16th July 2017, 05:11 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Speaking of Alan Dershowitz:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/al...rticle/2628810

(For those not wanting to click, Dershowitz explains why "anything of value" cannot include information.)

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean no crime was committed. Why would the Russian meet with Trump representatives offering to release this dirt of Hillary Clinton? Forget fine print in the campaign finance law for a moment. Let's assume they had this dirt, and they want Trump to win. Why would they call a meeting? Just leak it. No need to get Paul Manafort in a room.

Clearly, the Russians wanted something.

Whatever it was they wanted, if the Trump people offered it, that could be a crime. If there was some sort of quid pro quo, I don't know what statute would cover it, but it sounds like the kind of thing that somebody somewhere would have written a law against it.

Bob Mueller will be following this as far as he possibly can, I'm confident.
The idea that there was to be an exchange should be enough to demonstrate that this would be considered something of value.
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Old 16th July 2017, 05:13 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That DJTjr showed up with Manafort the campaign manager and Kushner demonstrates very clearly that JR was excited to procure this information. So it was considered valuable.
Kushner and Manafort weren't just sucking-up to the boss's son, let's face it. Donald Jr's known as Fredo for good reason, long pre-dating this fiasco.

I blame the parents.
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