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Old 11th September 2017, 05:07 AM   #41
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Rabid partisanship has been the GOP MO for a while now so it's hardly shocking if a large chunk of the US electorate use it as a criterion for judging Presidential success.
That's really sad.

Quebec provincial elections are coming up in a month (and ours don't last a year) and I intend on, as usual, checking up the major parties' platforms before casting my vote. See, I don't always vote for the same parties. It's about the policies, not the logo.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:10 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Forgive?

How about we deal with our problems and stop trying to find people to blame for them?
I've found that the majority of problems in my life are directly, and vindictively, caused by the exact sort of "I'm not a racist!" racist who votes for Toupee Fiasco.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:12 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's really sad.

Quebec provincial elections are coming up in a month (and ours don't last a year) and I intend on, as usual, checking up the major parties' platforms before casting my vote. See, I don't always vote for the same parties. It's about the policies, not the logo.
That's commendable and quite different to the way in which many (the majority ?) of people cast their votes. One of the reasons suggested for why the UKIP vote shot up in Wales is that a lot of people in communities which have voted Labour for generations came to the conclusion that the Labour Party no longer reflected their views (or vice versa) and switched.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:21 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That's commendable and quite different to the way in which many (the majority ?) of people cast their votes. One of the reasons suggested for why the UKIP vote shot up in Wales is that a lot of people in communities which have voted Labour for generations came to the conclusion that the Labour Party no longer reflected their views (or vice versa) and switched.
Did any of labour's positions actually change?
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:28 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Did any of labour's positions actually change?
Today's Labour Party is very different to the one that existed 30-40 years ago, but then again today's society is very different. The differences in detailed policy would take a long time to list. Then again many people voted Labour because that's what your dad and granddad did and policies made little or no difference.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:34 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I don't mean if you can work with a Trump voter. Or be civil with them. I believe with time I could work with a Trump voter and be civil with them too.

But I have real doubts I will ever be able to forgive them. Deep down I'm just sort of thinking there will always be a sort of seething anger. I'm not sure if it is a sense of betrayal or what. I know it isn't healthy. I'll admit that. But I'm also a realist that knows that not everything that goes on in my head is healthy.

But what about you? Does it matter at all to you that someone voted in favor of so many unconscionable views and actions? Can you just look right past their choice?
Politics is your religion. Voting for Trump was heresy. It was a cardinal sin. And you don't know if you can forgive the apostates.

If you want to overcome these feelings, which you recognize are unhealthy, you have to let go of your attachment to politics. You have to make it mean less to you. Politics is a poor religion, it will always disappoint.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:35 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Rabid partisanship has been the GOP MO for a while now so it's hardly shocking if a large chunk of the US electorate use it as a criterion for judging Presidential success.
It's cute that you think the problem is one-sided.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:37 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's cute that you think the problem is one-sided.
It's cute that you deny it.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:44 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's cute that you think the problem is one-sided.
I do ?

If you follow the conversation, Argumemnon was referring to this part of one of my posts

Quote:
Trump's actions have been "mostly been excellent" for a subset of the electorate. If you are so virulently anti-Obama, because you are so fundamentally anti-Democratic Party and/or so racist that you want Obama effectively expunged from the record then Trump has mostly been excellent.
Democratic Party partisanship (or lack thereof) is irrelevant w.r.t. that point.
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:58 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I don't mean if you can work with a Trump voter. Or be civil with them. I believe with time I could work with a Trump voter and be civil with them too.

But I have real doubts I will ever be able to forgive them. Deep down I'm just sort of thinking there will always be a sort of seething anger. I'm not sure if it is a sense of betrayal or what. I know it isn't healthy. I'll admit that. But I'm also a realist that knows that not everything that goes on in my head is healthy.

But what about you? Does it matter at all to you that someone voted in favor of so many unconscionable views and actions? Can you just look right past their choice?

Personally I feel that whatever my feelings I have to try and work with them. I'm not sure how but the other options sure don't look good for the whole nation in the long term.
Nothing to forgive. They voted the way they thought was best. If you cannot convince them that they are in error then maybe you should refine your arguments.

You should also try to understand that a goodly chunk of people are too dumb to understand cause and effect, and are easily swayed by pretty people saying things that tend to agree with dearly held beliefs. (this is not a left or right thing)
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Old 11th September 2017, 05:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I do ?
It seems that way. Are you claiming otherwise?
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:10 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It seems that way. Are you claiming otherwise?
Is it possible that both sides are partisan but not equally so?
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:21 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Is it possible that both sides are partisan but not equally so?
Sure, it's possible. For example, conservatives are less likely than liberals to unfriend people on social media for having different opinions. On that metric, at least, conservatives are less partisan than liberals. There are probably metrics where the reverse is true. I don't see any objective way of measuring total patisanship, though, so I doubt we can establish what that difference is to everyone's satisfaction.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Today's Labour Party is very different to the one that existed 30-40 years ago, but then again today's society is very different. The differences in detailed policy would take a long time to list. Then again many people voted Labour because that's what your dad and granddad did and policies made little or no difference.
Can you do one big policy change? I'm really curious.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:27 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Can you do one big policy change? I'm really curious.
"Clause 4" was a biggie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clause_IV

Quote:
To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.
In 1995 it was changed to be:

Quote:
The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few, where the rights we enjoy reflect the duties we owe, and where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:27 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Trump's actions have been "mostly been excellent" for a subset of the electorate
I can forgive Trump voters because Trump's actions since becoming president have been mostly ineffective. His major legislative agenda items have failed, because just enough of his own party doesn't want to run for re-election after voting for the unpopular items. Meanwhile, the worst of his executive actions get blocked by courts.

Really, when it comes down to it, I don't think Trump has done anything awful since taking office. He may have tried some things, but he hasn't succeeded at them. Mostly, he just looks foolish when he talks, but that doesn't do any real harm. The doctrine of separation of powers works. Those guys Jefferson, Madison, and friends really knew what they were doing.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 11th September 2017 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:28 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure, it's possible. For example, conservatives are less likely than liberals to unfriend people on social media for having different opinions. On that metric, at least, conservatives are less partisan than liberals. There are probably metrics where the reverse is true. I don't see any objective way of measuring total patisanship, though, so I doubt we can establish what that difference is to everyone's satisfaction.
We were talking about party strategies, remember?
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Really, when it comes down to it, I don't think Trump has done anything awful since taking office. He may have tried some things, but he hasn't succeeded at them. Mostly, he just looks foolish when he talks, but that doesn't do any real harm. The doctrine of separation of powers works. Those guys Jefferson, Madison, and friends really knew what they were doing.
I disagree, IMO withdrawing from the Paris Accord is as awful as it comes.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:35 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For example, conservatives are less likely than liberals to unfriend people on social media for having different opinions.
Is that anecdotal, or has there been an actual published paper documenting that? (And if so, were the researchers supported with government funding?)
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:44 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
We were talking about party strategies, remember?
Same applies. There's no good metric of total partisanship. I'm sure you can find metrics which portray one party as more partisan, and other metrics which portray the other as more partisan. But both parties are very partisan, and any difference in partisanship between them appears to me much smaller than their total partisanship.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is that anecdotal, or has there been an actual published paper documenting that? (And if so, were the researchers supported with government funding?)
http://www.journalism.org/2014/10/21...minded-friends
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I disagree, IMO withdrawing from the Paris Accord is as awful as it comes.
That's naive. The Paris Accord is basically a PR stunt. It won't actually do much of anything, even if we hadn't withdrawn.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:49 AM   #62
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Name one thing Trump has done that is designed to make everybody's lives better. One policy. Just one. Natural disasters don't count, because that's reactionary. I'm talking about policy.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:51 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can forgive Trump voters because Trump's actions since becoming president have been mostly ineffective. His major legislative agenda items have failed, because just enough of his own party doesn't want to run for re-election after voting for the unpopular items. Meanwhile, the worst of his executive actions get blocked by courts.

Really, when it comes down to it, I don't think Trump has done anything awful since taking office. He may have tried some things, but he hasn't succeeded at them. Mostly, he just looks foolish when he talks, but that doesn't do any real harm. The doctrine of separation of powers works. Those guys Jefferson, Madison, and friends really knew what they were doing.
The uncertainty, distrust and general angst Trump has caused among America's allies is no little thing. Probably overlooked by most Americans, what with their inward-looking "We're the greatest!" mindset.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:53 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
@Travis, I can forgive the ones who were conned by his populist bs. Once. See my "screen name". If those same folks fall for it again when he gets out there an rallies the true believers for a re-election? No. Then they're idiots and the sooner they die off, the better.

The true reprehensibles? No forgiveness. I never considered them worthy of my trust, respect or faith in the first place. And I don't forgive them for being bigots and racists in the first place, so I'm certainly not going to forgive them for voting their skin color and misanthropy.
Pretty much this.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:54 AM   #65
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Not to mention the lurch nearer to nuclear midnight.

The fools 'n tools who *still* think this psychologically damaged man is doing a good job on America's behalf are reprehensible and unforgivable.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:56 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Name one thing Trump has done that is designed to make everybody's lives better.
Why is that the relevant standard? For almost everything the government does, there are winners and losers. We may hope that more people win than lose, and that the magnitudes of the wins are larger than the magnitude of the losses, but almost never are there only winners and no losers.

And if you appeal to what a policy is designed for rather than what it actually does, go sit in the corner and think about your mistake. Evaluating actions by ascribed motive is no way to go through life.
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:58 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Not to mention the lurch nearer to nuclear midnight.
Wait... are you under the impression that that measurement has any actual accuracy?
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Old 11th September 2017, 06:58 AM   #68
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Ok, let me ask it this way.

What policy or idea has he cone up with that wasn't designed to hurt people?

*rich white males excluded
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:00 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I don't mean if you can work with a Trump voter. Or be civil with them. I believe with time I could work with a Trump voter and be civil with them too.

But I have real doubts I will ever be able to forgive them. Deep down I'm just sort of thinking there will always be a sort of seething anger. I'm not sure if it is a sense of betrayal or what. I know it isn't healthy. I'll admit that. But I'm also a realist that knows that not everything that goes on in my head is healthy.

But what about you? Does it matter at all to you that someone voted in favor of so many unconscionable views and actions? Can you just look right past their choice?

Personally I feel that whatever my feelings I have to try and work with them. I'm not sure how but the other options sure don't look good for the whole nation in the long term.
As skeptics, we should have a keen appreciation for the contours of irrational belief, how the irrational becomes a part of one's belief system through a constellation of motivated reasoning, tribal affinities and the narratives one adopts/responds to.

For instance, I used to read a lot about say, guerilla wars in central and south america, or western folly in the Middle East - and i used to be, well, maybe angry isn't the right word but i used to consider "American planners" and the foreign policy elite in the western world to be really bad people.

Then I grew up. Spent a lot more time reading deeper and deeper. Became a skeptic. Started to get turned on to why people believe weird things.

Started to realize the network of things these types of people believe, American Exceptionalism, that paternalistic "civilizing mission" thing, the inability to see the failures of previous policies they supported, the rationalization away of setbacks and the overcounting of success - and on and on.

I have since stopped personalizing it when people believe bad things. I apply this to my brother in law who is an Alex Jones fan. My anti-gmo hippie friends who know not what they do. I apply this to Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

Everyone is the hero of their own story - everyone has a lot of bullcrap in their head to make that true.

Almost everyone believes they are making the right choices to make things better - and if they appear extraordinarily selfish it may just be they have been inculcated with the Randian philosophy of "my success is everyone else's success."

If a leader may appear to be callous in the way foreign populations are subject to the impacts of their decisions, its probably just a function of the fact they have no conception of what its really like to be a peasant in the jungles of Colombia, a nun in Panama or a family in Aleppo or Baghdad. And they probably imagine most of the bad things happening in places impacted by their decisions to be the result of the other side, and have found ways to absolve themselves of having any part in those outcomes.

Similarly, Trump voters will be disconnected from all the bad things you see following from their vote, and so you shouldn't be all that angry with them.

they live in a different universe
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:02 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Ok, let me ask it this way.

What policy or idea has he cone up with that wasn't designed to hurt people?

*rich white males excluded
Given that almost all government policies hurt somebody, how exactly do you determine which policies are designed to hurt people rather than doing so incidentally? Can you do so objectively, or is this just a subjective determination?
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:05 AM   #71
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the policies are not designed by their designers to hurt people - they believe the policies to actually help.

There is ideology that tells them these policies will be the best for America.

Even DACA move is about "securing the country" for people who want that ended.

One may argue that they end up hurting people, but that isn't the intent.
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-Iain Banks

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Old 11th September 2017, 07:07 AM   #72
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Not to mention the lurch nearer to nuclear midnight.
Stop talking about yourself in the third person!
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
Everyone is the hero of their own story
Speak for yourself. I play the villain!
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:11 AM   #74
Praktik
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i can tell by the avatar!

but then again - the king was just trying to restore order over some barbarous savages right??
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-Iain Banks
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:16 AM   #75
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It's not up to me to forgive or not forgive people as a group.

I do feel sorry for people who voted for him because they thought he'd bring back their coal jobs or do something about the opioid crisis or otherwise do anything to make life better for anyone but himself and fossil-fuel CEOs and some rich people demanding tax breaks - the same way I'd feel sorry for anyone desperate and/or gullible enough to fall for such an obvious con man.

I don't feel sorry for the white supremacists that voted for him because of his support for their vile cause, the so-called Christians who voted for him despite his rotten character in order to buy a Supreme Court judge, or for the trolls who voted for him just because they hated "crooked Hillary" or loved sticking it to them anti-American libruls.

The latter two groups are especially reprehensible because of their staggering hypocrisy; at least the open white supremacists are honest about what they were voting for. But all of them have betrayed this country's ideals and helped caused profound and ongoing damage to our nation.

Still, the choice to forgive or not forgive a group making a political choice is not within my purview. I can choose to not forgive the con men, Klansmen, crackpots, thieves, and traitors making up this Administration, the quislings supporting him in Congress, and the liars and hypocrites still defending him as something he manifestly is not.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:25 AM   #76
NoahFence
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Originally Posted by Praktik View Post
the policies are not designed by their designers to hurt people - they believe the policies to actually help.

There is ideology that tells them these policies will be the best for America.

Even DACA move is about "securing the country" for people who want that ended.

One may argue that they end up hurting people, but that isn't the intent.
Baloney.

Ending DACA only hurts people. It helps nobody. Well, nobody besides racist, ignorant morons.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:27 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Baloney.

Ending DACA only hurts people. It helps nobody. Well, nobody besides racist, ignorant morons.
Well, if you're being slightly cynical, and DACA costs money, ending it helps taxpayers in general.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:29 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, if you're being slightly cynical, and DACA costs money, ending it helps taxpayers in general.
Except it doesn't. But never let facts get in the way, that is the mark of a true conservative after all.
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:31 AM   #79
Praktik
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Baloney.

Ending DACA only hurts people. It helps nobody. Well, nobody besides racist, ignorant morons.
This doesnt change fact supporters of the policy change believe it will help
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-Iain Banks
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Old 11th September 2017, 07:36 AM   #80
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Baloney.

Ending DACA only hurts people. It helps nobody. Well, nobody besides racist, ignorant morons.
I'm sure you can back this up with hard data.

Oh, who am I kidding? Of course you can't.
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