ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 27th October 2017, 11:48 AM   #41
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,791
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I reckon it's about 16m tall, and it is definitely a mast. Indeed, it's the only mast (it isn't a sloop). However, I guess it is possible for it (the mast) to become inoperative without actually snapping off. There are various tracks, pulleys, sheets, wire ropes etc running up and down the mast, and I guess that at a stretch the language used could mean the mast was indeed broken (jammed such that the sail couldn't be raised), but still physically intact.
Competent sailors (I'm not one) would have a bosun's seat for doing fixes on the mast at sea. This seat would be raised by the main halyard. I confess I'm not sure what you do if it's the halyard itself that's the problem.

One option might be to used the topping lift, but I don't know that the topping lift is adequate for this job.

Of course, I wouldn't describe a jammed halyard as a "broken mast", but maybe the reporter got the terminology wrong or maybe the mast was clearly weakened to the point that it was dangerous to put load on it. A mast coming down under load can ruin your afternoon.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 12:10 PM   #42
Ranb
Philosopher
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,509
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/mariners-r...opstories.html
Quote:
Finally, on Tuesday, they were spotted by a Taiwanese fishing boat 900 miles from Japan -- 5,000 miles from where they'd intended to sail.

But despite the crew's best efforts to secure the sailboat, they actually damaged it further.

Appel told the Taiwanese boat to use their radio, which is how they were eventually able to get a U.S. Navy ship to pick them up.
Still not much info to go on before deciding if these two were irresponsible for attempting their trip.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 12:40 PM   #43
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,394
Mmm. Old yachtsman's (me) opinion:

- Any extensive use of engine over such distances unrealistic for a yacht that size (seems to be some 35 ft.). It simply can't carry enough fuel.

- Once engine is lost, available power is limited. From the video it appears they have a solar panel off the stern. It is at most m2, so would provide max. 500 w at noon.

- Transmitters carried on yachts this size would have limited power (under 100W) and far from optimal antenna conditions. This will not reach far in the middle of the pacific.

- The mast is obviously not broken.

- Assuming they lost GPS, for whatever reason, a skilled sailor would still be able to navigate to safety, provided he/she has instruments, solar height tables, and a reliable clock.

- A sailboat of this type can sail on any course, given skillful handling (might have to tack).

My conclusion, based on information available:

Crew lacked backup skills. Once they lost their main power source and, presumably, GPS, they were unable to keep an even approximate course. Probably did not have a sextant and reliable clock or didn't know how to use it.

They survived in good health due to a huge store of food and the possession of a water purifying system.

Bottom line: Poor preparation for a voyage of a distance and on an ocean that should never be taken casually. At least they took plenty of supplies.

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 12:46 PM   #44
JoeBentley
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeBentley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,154
Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Bottom line: Poor preparation for a voyage of a distance and on an ocean that should never be taken casually. At least they took plenty of supplies.
That's the weird part to me. 5+ months of food is a lot, way more than even most paranoid long distance Yachters carry.

The water situation vexes me also. Solar Stills don't generate that much and... I mean yeah it is technically possible that a mechanical or electrical desalinator functioned well enough to support 2 people and 2 dogs while almost literally every other piece of complex equipment broke but... those are some finicky devices (and anything this reliable would not be cheap) and a lot less forgiving than radios and GPSs and marine engines. It's possible, but that would be some luck.

A scenario in which a small boat that doesn't look like it as a lot of money to throw around heads out to sea, everything that makes it so they could get back to land or contact help breaks/runs out but everything to keep them alive for 5 months doesn't... I mean I can write that story but it's not a very believable one.

If the couple live on the boat I'd edge into slightly more believable territory, but not much.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

"Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong

Last edited by JoeBentley; 27th October 2017 at 12:49 PM.
JoeBentley is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 12:54 PM   #45
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,394
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
That's the weird part to me. 5+ months of food is a lot, way more than even most paranoid long distance Yachters carry.

The water situation vexes me also. Solar Stills don't generate that much and... I mean yeah it is technically possible that a mechanical or electrical desalinator functioned well enough to support 2 people and 2 dogs while almost literally every other piece of complex equipment broke but... those are some finicky devices (and anything this reliable would not be cheap) and a lot less forgiving than radios and GPSs and marine engines. It's possible, but that would be some luck.

A scenario in which a small boat that doesn't look like it as a lot of money to throw around heads out to sea, everything that makes it so they could get back to land or contact help breaks/runs out but everything to keep them alive for 5 months doesn't... I mean I can write that story but it's not a very believable one.

If the couple live on the boat I'd edge into slightly more believable territory, but not much.
Well, I think they did do much to equip for the voyage, but in an off-balance way: Plenty of supplies, not enough of sailing.

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 01:05 PM   #46
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,685
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
.....
The water situation vexes me also. Solar Stills don't generate that much and... I mean yeah it is technically possible that a mechanical or electrical desalinator functioned well enough to support 2 people and 2 dogs while almost literally every other piece of complex equipment broke
....
Watermakers are standard marine equipment, and some smaller ones are hand-pump operated. The stories I've seen say their engine stopped working, but if they had solar cells or an auxiliary generator, they could have had some power to operate gadgets.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 01:15 PM   #47
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,578
I've done recreational sailing and racing in San Francisco Bay, and some very limited coastal sailing. The story seems strange to me. The boat looks functional- in pretty good condition actually. Even if they damaged the jib or main (which is not claimed) they would at least had the other sail, and if going on a long ocean voyage, should have had a good number of backups (even bay sailing one typically has a suite of jibs and a backup main). Their progress might be slow but they still should have been able to do a few knots.

The statements I've read is that they got lost. This is odd too because if they lost the built-in electronics they certainly should have had backup navigation- you would have to be downright stupid not to. And they were planning ahead by packing so much food and a water maker. Up to recently people would learn celestial navigation as a backup to GPS (it is pretty easy to do noon sites to approximate latitude and longitude). But now instead of sextant navigation many sailors just pack several portable GPS units (or smart phones) and extra AA batteries in tightly sealed plastic bags as backup for any built-in GPS unit. What's the chance of four different GPS units all going bad at once? And if you only turn them on for a fix for 10 minutes each day a set of batteries will last a very long time.

My guess is that there is much to this story we do not yet know.
Giordano is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 01:26 PM   #48
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 13,578
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Competent sailors (I'm not one) would have a bosun's seat for doing fixes on the mast at sea. This seat would be raised by the main halyard. I confess I'm not sure what you do if it's the halyard itself that's the problem.

One option might be to used the topping lift, but I don't know that the topping lift is adequate for this job.

Of course, I wouldn't describe a jammed halyard as a "broken mast", but maybe the reporter got the terminology wrong or maybe the mast was clearly weakened to the point that it was dangerous to put load on it. A mast coming down under load can ruin your afternoon.
The jib halyard would probably be strong enough to lift a boson's chair, although one would probably have to disassemble the jib furling gear to get to it. But if it was a fractional rig the height at which the jib halyard exits the mast might be too low to allow someone in the bosun's chair to get to the main halyard to unjam it (or to just bring it down to the deck if someone had let it go and it had zipped up to the top of the mast).

I've sailed with some very experienced and very strong sailors who have shimmied up masts without relying on bosun's chairs in emergency situations (using whatever mast fittings/shrouds, stays, etc they could employ). But hell no, I wouldn't try such a thing myself.
Giordano is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 01:41 PM   #49
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,791
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
The jib halyard would probably be strong enough to lift a boson's chair, although one would probably have to disassemble the jib furling gear to get to it. But if it was a fractional rig the height at which the jib halyard exits the mast might be too low to allow someone in the bosun's chair to get to the main halyard to unjam it (or to just bring it down to the deck if someone had let it go and it had zipped up to the top of the mast).

I've sailed with some very experienced and very strong sailors who have shimmied up masts without relying on bosun's chairs in emergency situations (using whatever mast fittings/shrouds, stays, etc they could employ). But hell no, I wouldn't try such a thing myself.
I plumb forgot about the jib halyard. I own a catboat, so have no jib.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 02:54 PM   #50
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,617
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
A mast coming down under load can ruin your afternoon.
FTFY
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 03:53 PM   #51
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,617
The distance from Hawaii to Tahiti is 4493 km (2371 nautical miles), and a typical yacht motoring speed is about 4 - 5 knots. so motoring 24/7 would take between 20 and 25 days.

This is an ideal estimate, assuming no adverse weather or ocean currents, and strong cross or head winds. The type of motor used in yachts like this usually a low speed "chugger", more often than not, a diesel as they are low maintenance, they have less to go wrong and are cheaper to run than a petrol. If a motor like this is in good condition and well maintained, it should have no problem running continuously for the 500 to 600 hours required to do the job.

My neighbour has a 32 ft yacht, its motoring engine is an 8hp Yanmar diesel that consumes about 1 litre/hr running at 2500 rpm (I just asked him this morning) so on that basis, he would need at least 600 litres of diesel (the equivalent of 3 x 205 litre drums). His on board tank is 750 litres and he said he would not attempt such a journey without another two 205 litre drums to add to his reserve.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 04:38 PM   #52
Elagabalus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,790
Not a sailor, but I'm pretty sure I could tell by the position of Polaris that I had not crossed the equator and was, therefore, not anywhere near Tahiti.
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 05:57 PM   #53
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,342
I'd really like to hear how simple was the problem with the main engine. Maybe one tank dry, knot know how to switch tanks? Or heard on the dock as they left "The tanks is full, Who needs reserves. let's go to Tahiti!" Sounds like they could be that inept.

Examples: I sailed San Diego /San Francisco, both ways. Two different yachts, two different owners. One way, there was no working bilge pump when I came aboard. Nor any lights above deck. Sailing in the shipping lanes. Other way, the little diesel lost power. Captain was happy to motor from Catalina to S.D. at idle. I crawled below, and pulled the throttle cable back into it's clamp. On a 3rd trip, the crew didn't invite me. Engine wouldn't start off Long Beach, needed a tow in. Loose battery connections cost them $1,000. I think scrambled eggs on a visor denotes Moron.
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 06:03 PM   #54
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,342
I wonder if the Coast Guard will investigate for possible Ineptitude on the Briney Deep?

Any notes of their experience? Did they sail a first leg, California to Hawaii?
__________________
Great minds discuss ideas.
Medium minds discuss events.
Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 06:31 PM   #55
winkydink
New Blood
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 19
its my understanding that the rigging was damaged, not the mast. The bolt holding the spreader to the mast bent after that first gnarly storm. They also lost a cell phone overboard the very first day. The article in the post says that Appel, the captain, had prepared for two and a half years, and had sailed regularly for the last ten. You can buy a nice Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon for 600 bucks, sounds like they would have been found pretty quick.
winkydink is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 07:09 PM   #56
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,791
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The distance from Hawaii to Tahiti is 4493 km (2371 nautical miles), and a typical yacht motoring speed is about 4 - 5 knots. so motoring 24/7 would take between 20 and 25 days.

This is an ideal estimate, assuming no adverse weather or ocean currents, and strong cross or head winds. The type of motor used in yachts like this usually a low speed "chugger", more often than not, a diesel as they are low maintenance, they have less to go wrong and are cheaper to run than a petrol. If a motor like this is in good condition and well maintained, it should have no problem running continuously for the 500 to 600 hours required to do the job.

My neighbour has a 32 ft yacht, its motoring engine is an 8hp Yanmar diesel that consumes about 1 litre/hr running at 2500 rpm (I just asked him this morning) so on that basis, he would need at least 600 litres of diesel (the equivalent of 3 x 205 litre drums). His on board tank is 750 litres and he said he would not attempt such a journey without another two 205 litre drums to add to his reserve.
My boat has a 16hp Yanmar and must weigh much less than your friend's, but maybe his boat is more efficient under motor.

They sip diesel, no doubt, but I guess my ten gallon tank puts Tahiti off limits.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th October 2017, 10:42 PM   #57
mgidm86
Illuminator
 
mgidm86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,809
Did anybody report them missing? Any evidence that they were?

I'm bored and feeling lucky, so I'm gonna call hoax on this story. What the heck.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 01:23 AM   #58
commandlinegamer
Philosopher
 
commandlinegamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mazes of Menace
Posts: 8,567
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Did anybody report them missing?
People can be out of contact for a long time, before anybody reports it.

In recent non-nautical news, two people over here have just been charged with the murder of a woman (they were apparently her carers) who had not been seen by anyone else since 1999. The alarm was only raised a year ago. It's a weird case: she did have family.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41781297

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-41679631

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scot...-disappearance

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-38156376
__________________
He bade me take any rug in the house.
commandlinegamer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 01:34 AM   #59
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 62,004
A lot of information in this article in the Guardian newspaper:

'I've never sailed': women rescued at sea admit they weren't properly prepared
Jennifer Appel and Tasha Fuiava had planned to sail from Hawaii to Taihiti, but Fuiava had never sailed before


Quote:
The women credited their survival to advice from veteran Hawaiian sailors – and luck.

“They said pack every square inch of your boat with food, and if you think you need a month, pack six months, because you have no idea what could possibly happen out there,” Appel said. “And the sailors in Honolulu really gave us good advice. We’re here.”
__________________
Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy birthday, happy birthday
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 01:47 AM   #60
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,403
Does anyone know what becomes of the boat in this situation? I presume it wasn't taken in tow by the USN, but surely it wouldn't just be allowed to drift around empty, as a potential hazard to shipping? One of the crew talked about "hoping to recover it one day".
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 02:02 AM   #61
JihadJane
not a camel
 
JihadJane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 62,004
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Does anyone know what becomes of the boat in this situation? I presume it wasn't taken in tow by the USN, but surely it wouldn't just be allowed to drift around empty, as a potential hazard to shipping? One of the crew talked about "hoping to recover it one day".
From the Guardian article I post above:

Quote:
Although the US Navy declared the Sea Nymph no longer seaworthy, Appel said she hoped to eventually recover it and perhaps take it out again.
__________________
Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy birthday, happy birthday
JihadJane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 02:08 AM   #62
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Storms, broken mast, no engine, going through 12 months food supply in half that time, fixing a broken water purifier, fearing death every night, shark attacks, losing phone on first day and so on.

Am I being too cynical in thinking that this is a book deal in the making and maybe even a film? I'd be happy to put myself in that much "danger" if I was angling for a multi million dollar deal. Those two woman and their dogs are in the rudest of health and don't seem, at this point in time, to be suffering from the mental strain of facing death every day (according to them) for five months.

Talking about film, is there any footage from on-board and, if so, has it hit the net yet?

I'm finding the loss of the mobile phone suspicious simply because, if I was out and about with anybody I know, and I mean anybody, and said, "Oops I've lost my phone!". They would certainly reply, "Don't worry, I've got mine."

Last edited by bluesjnr; 28th October 2017 at 02:09 AM.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 02:11 AM   #63
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Does anyone know what becomes of the boat in this situation? I presume it wasn't taken in tow by the USN, but surely it wouldn't just be allowed to drift around empty, as a potential hazard to shipping? One of the crew talked about "hoping to recover it one day".
I think international salvage rules apply if the boat is drifting. Basically, if you can board it and bring it back to shore it's yours.

Fancy a trip?

Bring two phones.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 02:26 AM   #64
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,617
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I think international salvage rules apply if the boat is drifting. Basically, if you can board it and bring it back to shore it's yours.

Fancy a trip?

Bring two phones.

I think marine salvage laws only apply if the ship is abandoned (no-one on board)

never mind
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.

Last edited by smartcooky; 28th October 2017 at 02:27 AM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 02:26 AM   #65
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 20,403
So the likeliest scenario is that some Taiwanese fisherman gets a bit of a bonanza if he can get a line on board?
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 03:10 AM   #66
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
I believe there are marine salvage firms who monitor situations worldwide (looking for somewhat bigger fish to be fair) and make millions. They even have a Union.

Quote:
The International Salvage Union (ISU) is the global trade association representing marine salvors. Its members provide essential services to the world’s maritime and insurance communities. Members are engaged in marine casualty response, pollution defence, wreck removal, cargo recovery, towage and related activities. The principles of salvage and salvage law have evolved over many centuries. A fundamental concept is that the salvor should be encouraged by the prospect of an appropriate salvage award to intervene in any casualty situation to salve the ship, property and, in particular, to save life and prevent pollution. The salvor’s right to a reward is based on natural equity, which allows the salvor to participate in the benefit conferred to shipowner, the ship itself and the ship’s cargo.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 03:54 AM   #67
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,200
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I think international salvage rules apply if the boat is drifting. Basically, if you can board it and bring it back to shore it's yours.

Fancy a trip?

Bring two phones.
Not entirely, under Maritime Law the Salvor is entitled to a reward that is commensurate with the value of what was salvaged. If whatever is salvaged is insured then the Insurance Company will have a claim on it and if they think it is worth it they usually will do this while making the salvors a payment for their efforts in covering it.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.

Last edited by PhantomWolf; 28th October 2017 at 03:55 AM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 04:15 AM   #68
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,849
That's if it's ever seen again. There are apparently thousands and thousands of containers floating around that have fallen overboard.
Occasionally some unlucky mariner hits one.
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 04:30 AM   #69
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Not entirely, under Maritime Law the Salvor is entitled to a reward that is commensurate with the value of what was salvaged. If whatever is salvaged is insured then the Insurance Company will have a claim on it and if they think it is worth it they usually will do this while making the salvors a payment for their efforts in covering it.
Thanks, I knew I wasn't bang on with my info so thanks for clarifying.

Originally Posted by fagin View Post
That's if it's ever seen again. There are apparently thousands and thousands of containers floating around that have fallen overboard.

Occasionally some unlucky mariner hits one.
You should, if you haven't already seen it, look out for "All is Lost" starring Robert Redford. Its a very, very good film made better when you know that the, then, 77 year old Redford did all his own stunts.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 04:35 AM   #70
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16,200
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
That's if it's ever seen again. There are apparently thousands and thousands of containers floating around that have fallen overboard.
Occasionally some unlucky mariner hits one.
The worst thing about containers is that they actually float just under the surface of the water, so are virtually invisible until you happen to hit it. Eventually they do sink, but they are a major hazard to shipping and boats until they do.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)
My Apollo Page.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 04:49 AM   #71
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,849
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post

You should, if you haven't already seen it, look out for "All is Lost" starring Robert Redford. Its a very, very good film made better when you know that the, then, 77 year old Redford did all his own stunts.
Interesting article on the making of it. Longtime Redford fan, comes across as a decent guy and a serious pro. Movie now on Amazon list for later.
Thanks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/f...ied-to-me.html

Quote:
He had fibbed to me on our first meeting, when he kept talking about taking his family on a boat. Yet we get there on the first day of rehearsals, and I see him walk across the deck of the boat, and he does not look like a person who has been on a sail boat before. So I mosey over to him, and ask what kind of boat was that? And he says oh that was a house boat on Lake Howell, which is actually in the middle of a desert, its about the calmest lake that you could possibly find. So he had never sailed a boat in his life, basically.
And at that point I started to panic.
Haha.
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 07:42 AM   #72
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,685
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Thanks, I knew I wasn't bang on with my info so thanks for clarifying.



You should, if you haven't already seen it, look out for "All is Lost" starring Robert Redford. Its a very, very good film made better when you know that the, then, 77 year old Redford did all his own stunts.
As I recall, the movie raised some questions not much different from the ones here. The Redford character was portrayed as an experienced sailor, even capable of making his own hull repairs at sea. His boat was modern, relatively large and obviously expensive. Yet when his radio was damaged, he didn't have a backup. He didn't have a satphone or emergency beacons. When he needed to break out his flares and raft, he had to read the instructions. And he was rescued after he had been adrift in his raft for only a few days. Real sailors found a lot to sneer at.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 07:51 AM   #73
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,685
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Storms, broken mast, no engine, going through 12 months food supply in half that time, fixing a broken water purifier, fearing death every night, shark attacks, losing phone on first day and so on.

Am I being too cynical in thinking that this is a book deal in the making and maybe even a film? I'd be happy to put myself in that much "danger" if I was angling for a multi million dollar deal. Those two woman and their dogs are in the rudest of health and don't seem, at this point in time, to be suffering from the mental strain of facing death every day (according to them) for five months.

So what's your theory? They were in fact found adrift in a disabled boat thousands of miles from shipping lanes without basic emergency equipment. You think they planned it? You think they sailed there and sabotaged their boat? You think somebody towed them there and left them? You think the Navy was in on it? Or what?
....

Quote:
I'm finding the loss of the mobile phone suspicious simply because, if I was out and about with anybody I know, and I mean anybody, and said, "Oops I've lost my phone!". They would certainly reply, "Don't worry, I've got mine."
Maybe they were sharing a phone. They were sharing pretty much everything else. Maybe they said "We can't call anybody in the ocean, we'll just get a new one in Tahiti." Unless they meant a satphone, in which case they should have turned around and gone back.

Last edited by Bob001; 28th October 2017 at 07:54 AM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 08:14 AM   #74
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,746
Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Storms, broken mast, no engine, going through 12 months food supply in half that time, fixing a broken water purifier, fearing death every night, shark attacks, losing phone on first day and so on.

Am I being too cynical in thinking that this is a book deal in the making and maybe even a film? I'd be happy to put myself in that much "danger" if I was angling for a multi million dollar deal. Those two woman and their dogs are in the rudest of health and don't seem, at this point in time, to be suffering from the mental strain of facing death every day (according to them) for five months.

Talking about film, is there any footage from on-board and, if so, has it hit the net yet?

I'm finding the loss of the mobile phone suspicious simply because, if I was out and about with anybody I know, and I mean anybody, and said, "Oops I've lost my phone!". They would certainly reply, "Don't worry, I've got mine."
Which had also broken by the time they were found, so that they were down to their last gallon of water?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 08:15 AM   #75
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 10,492
People set out poorly prepared. It happens all the time. Of course we can't rule out that the events were staged, but to propose that concept at this point is rather absurd.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 08:18 AM   #76
Stout
Illuminator
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,204
As an aside.

Some experienced yacht dudes were telling me that the cheapest place in the world to buy a used sailing yacht is Hawaii because ( apparently) there's lots of people who want to live the dream and spend their retirement years cruising the South Pacific.

Apparently, after making the crossing from California to Hawaii a significant number of these people abandon those plans and dreams after experiencing the reality of an ocean crossing.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 08:22 AM   #77
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 10,492
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
As an aside.

Some experienced yacht dudes were telling me that the cheapest place in the world to buy a used sailing yacht is Hawaii because ( apparently) there's lots of people who want to live the dream and spend their retirement years cruising the South Pacific.

Apparently, after making the crossing from California to Hawaii a significant number of these people abandon those plans and dreams after experiencing the reality of an ocean crossing.
The west coast of Mexico is littered with these sort of shattered dreams. Or at least it used to be.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

Last edited by varwoche; 28th October 2017 at 08:34 AM.
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 08:27 AM   #78
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So what's your theory? They were in fact found adrift in a disabled boat thousands of miles from shipping lanes without basic emergency equipment. You think they planned it? You think they sailed there and sabotaged their boat? You think somebody towed them there and left them? You think the Navy was in on it? Or what?
....


Maybe they were sharing a phone. They were sharing pretty much everything else. Maybe they said "We can't call anybody in the ocean, we'll just get a new one in Tahiti." Unless they meant a satphone, in which case they should have turned around and gone back.
You missed my pet theory in my post?

I'm not entirely serious and it doesn't merit me defending it... really.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 08:29 AM   #79
bluesjnr
Professional Nemesis for Hire
 
bluesjnr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Not where I should be.
Posts: 4,822
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
As I recall, the movie raised some questions not much different from the ones here. The Redford character was portrayed as an experienced sailor, even capable of making his own hull repairs at sea. His boat was modern, relatively large and obviously expensive. Yet when his radio was damaged, he didn't have a backup. He didn't have a satphone or emergency beacons. When he needed to break out his flares and raft, he had to read the instructions. And he was rescued after he had been adrift in his raft for only a few days. Real sailors found a lot to sneer at.
Yeah I remember reading some of the backlash from experienced types but it still made for a cracking, award winning movie for me.
bluesjnr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th October 2017, 08:46 AM   #80
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 36,798
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So what's your theory? They were in fact found adrift in a disabled boat thousands of miles from shipping lanes without basic emergency equipment. You think they planned it? You think they sailed there and sabotaged their boat? You think somebody towed them there and left them? You think the Navy was in on it? Or what?
....


Maybe they were sharing a phone. They were sharing pretty much everything else. Maybe they said "We can't call anybody in the ocean, we'll just get a new one in Tahiti." Unless they meant a satphone, in which case they should have turned around and gone back.
Hilited: That needs to be revised. Where they were heading? No major shipping lanes between Hawaii and Tahiti. But where they were found? Any point 1500 km off the Japanese coast is a major shipping lane.

Not that it effects the story since the fools would've been ten times worse off if they had the thing steered correctly, but it turns out that that part is a tad of hyperbole.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.