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Old 8th November 2017, 03:17 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
.....The USA (government) has....dropped a bomb on a Philadelphia neighborhood..........
My addition.

What's this all about?
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:26 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
My addition.

What's this all about?
In 1985, when police failed to evict some people from a house, they bombed the whole neighborhood.

http://mashable.com/2016/01/10/1985-.../#lW4vtUK9SkqY
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:28 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
A reason for the gun control in the UK being successful is one simple law covers the whole of the country. NI is excepted, but its law is very similar.

And extreme penalties for those in breach of said laws.

I get the impression that, in many places in the US , being caught with a firearm one is not supposed to have is not likely to have dire consequences for the carrier.

This is not the case in the US and, I would guess, not so in most of the rest of the western world.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The USA has subjected citizens to unethical experiments, dropped a bomb on a Philadelphia neighborhood, continues to escalate it's use of military tactics against those merely suspected of crimes, and generally acts like a spoiled psychopath.
It's worth pointing out that two of those three things were not done by the government as such, but by police departments, which seem to operate with fairly minimal oversight from any branch of even the state government and virtually none from the Federal. Which makes interesting if it's true that...

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
They appear to trust the police, but not "the government", which really means that they don't trust the government to uphold white supremacy anymore, where the police do.
...because the Philadelphia bomb was, and the majority of the military tactics seem to be, directed not at the white supremacists but against black people.

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Old 8th November 2017, 03:36 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I think there's another aspect to the issue no one wants to talk much about: people in the USA don't trust the government, because the government isn't trustable.

......
Yes, protection from tyrannical government is part of the culture and tradition. That continues to this day, even though the citizen has no chance of genuinely protecting himself from the government and the protection is less about tyranny and more about corruption.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:38 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
In 1985, when police failed to evict some people from a house, they bombed the whole neighborhood.

http://mashable.com/2016/01/10/1985-.../#lW4vtUK9SkqY
Police, then, not government....unless the government were involved in the process. Do people blame the government for the police killing 1000+ US citizens every year?
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:42 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Kind of.. but not really. Much of this unethical and unlawful activity by the government was, and is still, done to minorities. The vast majority of gun nuts are white people who are scared of minorities. They appear to trust the police, but not "the government", which really means that they don't trust the government to uphold white supremacy anymore, where the police do. The gun issue is also a race issue.
US society is very divided. Its history is of fighting and conquest, against native Americans, between the first settlers (British, French, Spanish), between each other (the war of Independence and the Civil War) and slavery.

All of that is very recent compared to the UK, which settled its main divide (religion) about three hundred years ago and did not have the other divisions regarding indigenous people etc.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:44 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And extreme penalties for those in breach of said laws.

I get the impression that, in many places in the US , being caught with a firearm one is not supposed to have is not likely to have dire consequences for the carrier.

This is not the case in the US and, I would guess, not so in most of the rest of the western world.
Illegal possession of firearms has resulted in ministers of religion and ex soldiers going to prison. It pretty much guarantees a prison sentence.
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Old 8th November 2017, 03:56 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
I love how people who don't live in the USA think it is here.

I live in a county with tens of thousands of people. A large percentage of the households have guns. Nothing ever happens here. There is literally less than one death from a gun per year in this county.

There are areas of the UK with the same amount of people as this county that have more gun deaths than we do. And they do it with way less guns per capita.

It is not the guns.
Obviously I can't say what the rates are in your county, but nationally the death rates from firearms in the US are 46 times greater than in the UK, while the homicide rate is 60 times greater.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:01 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Illegal possession of firearms has resulted in ministers of religion and ex soldiers going to prison. It pretty much guarantees a prison sentence.

This:

This is not the case in the US and, I would guess, not so in most of the rest of the western world.

Was meant to say this:

This is not the case in the UK and, I would guess, not so in most of the rest of the western world.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:01 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Police, then, not government....unless the government were involved in the process. Do people blame the government for the police killing 1000+ US citizens every year?
The people involved included the elected mayor, and other town officials. Almost none (or none?) of them faced any real penalties.

People here are not afraid members of Congress will come marching into the house. We're afraid the local PD will, or a unit from one of the military bases. However, if that ever happens, it will be at the behest of much higher agencies (ATF, FBI, CIA, etc.) and / or elected officials. Even if the actions are entirely illegal, we don't trust that to be a deterrent, any more than we expect laws to deter other types of criminals. Nor do we hold any hope those who bring about these acts will face any real justice on our behalf.

Certainly these things do not motivate all of America's gun hoarders, but it is a huge undercurrent that is very contagious, and comes back to the forefront every time an unarmed person is shot dead (of any race), every time a house is subjected to a no-knock entry by SWAT members on an otherwise calm night, whenever the police open fire at a college demonstration....

The bottom line: LEO usually act on orders, and those orders often come from those we trusted enough to put into offices. Even when they aren't, many feel they rarely see real justice, especially if it was supposed to be administered through a courtroom (another government institution).

So...a lack of trust in every government agency -from the FDA to Medicaid, from the Park Service to wherever the alphabet soup finally ends, is a very deep part of the American psyche.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:33 AM   #52
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I can't tell you just how depressing this all is. The USA should be a shining beacon for the rest of the world, and yet comes across as utterly dysfunctional, with an adversarial relationship between citizen and state in addition to all the societal dysfunctions around race. I guess the rest of us are just going to have to get on with our own lives and wait for a century for the USA to catch up.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:49 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I can't tell you just how depressing this all is. The USA should be a shining beacon for the rest of the world, and yet comes across as utterly dysfunctional, with an adversarial relationship between citizen and state in addition to all the societal dysfunctions around race. I guess the rest of us are just going to have to get on with our own lives and wait for a century for the USA to catch up.
That pre-supposes that we're heading in the same direction.

IMO a case could be made that, due to the US' uniqueness, the US and the rest of the developed world are actually on divergent courses with their high (and growing) levels of distrust of the government, security self-sufficiency, gun culture and the use of guns becoming more entrenched and widespread in the US whilst in the rest of the developed world, gun usage and ownership falls and the populace rely on the police and other security services to look after their wellbeing.

Last edited by The Don; 8th November 2017 at 04:50 AM. Reason: added attitude towards government
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:49 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Police, then, not government....unless the government were involved in the process. Do people blame the government for the police killing 1000+ US citizens every year?
Exactly we shouldn't mistake the police for a part of the government, we need to think of them as entirely made up of armed thugs.
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Old 8th November 2017, 04:57 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I can't tell you just how depressing this all is. The USA should be a shining beacon for the rest of the world, and yet comes across as utterly dysfunctional, with an adversarial relationship between citizen and state in addition to all the societal dysfunctions around race. I guess the rest of us are just going to have to get on with our own lives and wait for a century for the USA to catch up.
Yes; and that goes far more for those of us who live here.

IMO, it starts with criminal justice & law enforcement. I believe every person involved with the process, from the supreme court to the local officers, should be compelled to act with the same sterling characters ordinary citizens are supposed to act with.

No more laws allowing seizures of assets just based on suspicions, or the actions of others.

No more lawyers finding ambiguity in statements like "get me a lawyer, dawg". These kinds of word games belong to the domain of five-year-olds, not the state legislature.

No more LEO allowed to tell lies or fabricate stories to infiltrate gangs, bust drug dealers or "coax" confessions from suspects. If they can't do their jobs without acting like criminals themselves, then they need more training or better methods. As it is, too many of them see the "enemy" behind every face that isn't wearing a badge, and behind many that are. I think it starts with the basic premise of allowing them to do some things -any things- that no one else can do without facing charges.

When federal agencies like the ATF or NSA start targeting their own citizens, whether from poor ethics or boredom, every person involved should be both sacked & prosecuted.

We have to stop allowing the government to stand apart from the people it governs, and start filling the seats with leaders who actually give a damn about the welfare of the people who put them there.

When that happens, we'll see some changes to the gun culture, as people begin replacing their deeper fears with trust and respect. But it doesn't happen 'til there is some things done to garner trust and respect; they don't simply come with the job titles.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:04 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Some folks" also like to ignore that the constitution was written when there actually was a small chance of a tyrannical govt coming

They also ignore that the Founding Fathers themselves used it for the exact opposite purpose. When the Constitution was written, there was no national Army. Instead, the federal government had the ability to take control of the state militias when troops were needed. Militia members were required to provide their own firearms, so ensuring that militia members could obtain weapons ensured that the federal government would have well-armed troops available when needed.
As one example of its use, in 1794 several hundred armed men in Pennsylvania attacked a federal tax inspector's home as part of an ongoing dispute over the taxation of whiskey. George Washington himself led militia troops from four states into Pennsylvania to deal with the "rebels", who disbanded and went home before being confronted.
George Washington used troops armed by the Second Amendment to put down a citizen rebellion.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:16 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
They also ignore that the Founding Fathers themselves used it for the exact opposite purpose. When the Constitution was written, there was no national Army. Instead, the federal government had the ability to take control of the state militias when troops were needed. Militia members were required to provide their own firearms, so ensuring that militia members could obtain weapons ensured that the federal government would have well-armed troops available when needed.
As one example of its use, in 1794 several hundred armed men in Pennsylvania attacked a federal tax inspector's home as part of an ongoing dispute over the taxation of whiskey. George Washington himself led militia troops from four states into Pennsylvania to deal with the "rebels", who disbanded and went home before being confronted.
George Washington used troops armed by the Second Amendment to put down a citizen rebellion.
Exactly we need to disband the army to bring us more in line with what the founders wanted.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:22 AM   #58
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:24 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
A nation that values some words written on a bit of paper a couple of hundred years ago, by people who had no notion at all of automatic weapons or spree killers (and who were actually talking about maintaining a militia), over the lives of its actual children, needs to have a word with itself.
Yeaahh but wait a minute. Your wording there is a bit disingenuous. Those "words written on a bit of paper" are the founding principles of the country. I think that's a bit more important than what you made it appear.

As for the lives of children, to be entirely fair to the other side, we already make compromises that put children in danger in order to protect other rights and principles, so this isn't new.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:26 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeaahh but wait a minute. Your wording there is a bit disingenuous. Those "words written on a bit of paper" are the founding principles of the country. I think that's a bit more important than what you made it appear.
And yet we are happy to spit in their face with a tyrannical standing army, totally against their beliefs.
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Old 8th November 2017, 09:52 AM   #61
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My views on gun control are more on the fence, and I'm finding that may be the smallest camp on this issue.

I personally don't own a gun, almost certainly never would and if a law could be passed tomorrow that made all guns vanish in a puff of smoke, I would probably be in favor.

As mentioned in this thread, other countries have very serious gun regulation and it has been apparently very effective. So the question is, why not here? I do find some of the arguments of gun proponents worthwhile, if not as convincing as they do.

The US is a different country than those places that have successfully more or less "banned" guns, in more ways than just our love of guns, so there are fair arguments that a gun ban here might not be so effective, and may have downsides beyond interupting people's hobbies.

For one thing, there are a massive number of guns already in the country. Even if the large majority of law abiding folks were happy to turn in their guns, there are so many around that it would not be nearly as difficult for criminals to get them as it was in much smaller countries that had many fewer guns in the first place. I think there is at least some validity to the arguments that making guns criminal would mean only criminals have guns.

Other arguments, I think center around the US's ethic of self sufficiency and our relationship to police. In the US, there is a notion that people may encounter a violent criminal and that they can't rely on the police for their safety. I find it hard to argue against that. We as a country have more violent crime and more issues with our police than the countries with successful firearm bans by a wide margin.

Finally, there is the idea of how many lives are saved. If the LV shooter had not had access to guns, would he just have made a bomb or driven a truck into the concert? Gun advocates I think DO overstate this interchangeability. Guns are just really good at killing people, no high level of DIY skills or sneaking suspicious packages needed. I DO think making guns a lot harder to get would save some lives. But not all the lives lost to guns. There are still a lot of other ways to kill, and as mentioned before, no law will make guns as hard to get here as they are in the UK or Australia.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:25 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
If I'm not mistaken the IL FOID scheme requires the registration of every single firearm owned. That's Registration and won't sell. That's something else entirely. The License System I envision wouldn't do that. It would merely prove that an individual has passed a NICS check and is not prohibited.
Illinois does not require registration of guns. My wife has a FOID card, but currently no guns. (She had one, but she gave it to my stepson.) The validity of the card is supposed to be verified before any private transfers, but the guns themselves do not have to be registered.

Chicago may have stricter rules, though.
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Old 8th November 2017, 10:28 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet we are happy to spit in their face with a tyrannical standing army, totally against their beliefs.

Yeah, but you have to understand that, as the world, and technology, move on, then the principles laid down by men of the most admiral intent and no small intellect, must bow to new challenges and new situation that had not been envisioned by those men, bending their anachronistic principles to the modern world.

Except about the guns.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:00 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
......

For one thing, there are a massive number of guns already in the country. Even if the large majority of law abiding folks were happy to turn in their guns, there are so many around that it would not be nearly as difficult for criminals to get them as it was in much smaller countries that had many fewer guns in the first place......
The sheer number of guns is another reason why the USA will never be able to have successful gun control and vastly reduced instances of shootings.

It is why I think discussing how to control guns is a waste of time and the debate should be how best to cope with an out of control, un-solvable, gun problem.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:03 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeaahh but wait a minute. Your wording there is a bit disingenuous. Those "words written on a bit of paper" are the founding principles of the country. I think that's a bit more important than what you made it appear.

As for the lives of children, to be entirely fair to the other side, we already make compromises that put children in danger in order to protect other rights and principles, so this isn't new.

No, I stand by this. Words on a bit of paper is all that they are. Words written a couple of hundred years ago. That doesn't make them right, or a reasonable basis for running a country in a world that has changed out of all recognition compared to how it was when they were written. It's pure magical thinking to invest these words or the people who wrote them with a special mystical significance.

I accept that you feel gun ownership is one of the "rights and principles" that are worth sacrificing children's lives for though.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I can't tell you just how depressing this all is. The USA should be a shining beacon for the rest of the world, and yet comes across as utterly dysfunctional, with an adversarial relationship between citizen and state in addition to all the societal dysfunctions around race. I guess the rest of us are just going to have to get on with our own lives and wait for a century for the USA to catch up.
If the United States is so horrible, why to people keep moving there?

With the way some folks describe it no one in their right mind would want to step foot there, yet people of all races still flock there.

Something seems odd.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:09 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
"Some folks" also like to ignore that the constitution was written when there actually was a small chance of a tyrannical govt coming to get you and when people meant arms, they were talking barrel loaded one shot muskets or at a very big stretch, useless early multi loaded muskets.

And refuse to adapt to the situation in the modern world.

It's a bit like Young Earthers
What do you mean by adjust to the situation?
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:12 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we shouldn't mistake the police for a part of the government, we need to think of them as entirely made up of armed thugs.
Easy to say when there is no chance of that happening.
.who would be the most affected if we striped police of power?

Hint, it's not going to be people with lots of money living in gated communities.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:18 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Easy to say when there is no chance of that happening.
.who would be the most affected if we striped police of power?

Hint, it's not going to be people with lots of money living in gated communities.
Here is a hint I wasn't the one trying to advance an argument that the police were separate from the government and so police action isn't government action.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:19 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
No, I stand by this. Words on a bit of paper is all that they are. Words written a couple of hundred years ago. That doesn't make them right, or a reasonable basis for running a country in a world that has changed out of all recognition compared to how it was when they were written. It's pure magical thinking to invest these words or the people who wrote them with a special mystical significance.

I accept that you feel gun ownership is one of the "rights and principles" that are worth sacrificing children's lives for though.
You are correct there that Americans love to kill children. The more innocent the better and the younger the better. Here is a little known fact*, the final test an immigrant takes before becoming a citizen is to go into a town with a knife and a gold piece, find a mother with their child, give the mother the gold piece and kill the child and voila you are a citizen.
Even though murder is illegal the law is just words written on paper so no worries
(That's not really the truth, in today's times we do not require any blood sacrifice to become a US citizen).
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:20 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
You are correct there that Americans love to kill children.
They just don't care, you can lose a child and it will not change ones actions of behaviors.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:24 PM   #72
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No we love to kill children, that is the only explanation on why guns are loved so much and children are not. I know this because someone from another country told me and they do have a better understanding of American culture after all.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:27 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
If the United States is so horrible, why to people keep moving there?

With the way some folks describe it no one in their right mind would want to step foot there, yet people of all races still flock there.

Something seems odd.
Because it is still very unlikely you will be shot and there are simple things (like staying out of certain gang areas and not getting drunk with someone who has a gun) to make the chances even smaller.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:30 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
No we love to kill children, that is the only explanation on why guns are loved so much and children are not. I know this because someone from another country told me and they do have a better understanding of American culture after all.
I certainly have a better understanding what the argument is here and how your claim is logically flawed.

When two children go into a school and massacre 13 other children and that is not enough for a country to get a grip of its guns, NOTHING is going to be enough.

That is the argument.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:33 PM   #75
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I totally agree with what you are saying and the only reason for that is because we like dead children.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:33 PM   #76
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I have little difficulty believing that a lot of Americans don't trust there government

But there is a difference between not trusting the government and being convinced you require an arsenal, because you seriously think the government is going to suddenly start taking over the entire population of cities and start mass killing and stuff
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:47 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
I totally agree with what you are saying and the only reason for that is because we like dead children.
You don't like dead children. No one is saying that you do like dead children.

What is being said is that even children killing other children was not enough to galvanise the country to act and do its best to try prevent more killings.

If someone has cancer and decides not to try and have it treated, that does not mean they like having cancer.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:49 PM   #78
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Someone did say that we like dead children, it was me and since we aren't doing a darn thing to help prevent children from dying, we must like it.
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:54 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Scootch View Post
No we love to kill children, that is the only explanation on why guns are loved so much and children are not. I know this because someone from another country told me and they do have a better understanding of American culture after all.
This family seems like the poster case for american gun ownership, they certainly didn't change anything after their 3 year old boy killed his 9 year old sister with his great grandfathers gun. Freak accident nothing could have prevented it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a72810a88222
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Old 8th November 2017, 01:58 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This family seems like the poster case for american gun ownership, they certainly didn't change anything after their 3 year old boy killed his 9 year old sister with his great grandfathers gun. Freak accident nothing could have prevented it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a72810a88222
Didn't you just post another one of these stories in the other thread and then went on to describe it as "a bit of bad luck" and a "freak accident?"
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