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Old 10th November 2017, 05:23 PM   #281
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You'd be most welcome.
Thank you

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
By law you have the right to go where you like so long as you stay out of people's gardens and don't damage anything.
It wasn't actually one of the factors I was specifically thinking about, but where I am (semi rural Oxfordshire) we have lots of rights of way, but I get really wound up by the deliberate obstructions placed to deter walkers by some of the land owners around here and the prevalence of (unnecessary and often unmaintained) barbed wire and Keep Out signs.

It's a particularly sore point at the moment as Bert the Wonder Dog just spent two weeks in the cone of shame after running into old barbed wire that was hidden in the undergrowth along a National Trail.

Sorry, something of a digression...
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Old 10th November 2017, 05:24 PM   #282
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There are still some ********* who try that sort of thing on, but it's relatively rare.

There are government incentives for farmers to create and maintain appropriate walking, cycling and riding routes across their land.
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Old 10th November 2017, 05:32 PM   #283
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The place we've been looking at would give us a bigger house, a couple of out buildings that I could run a variant of my current work out of, a small, fairly low turnover business with potential to expand a bit, and a parcel of land, all for about two thirds of the price of our semi detached rabbit hutch. Add in a sensible cost of living and a social ethos that seems far more like our own and it's attractive. Very attractive.


Oh, and whiskey. Shouldn't forget the whiskey.....
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Old 10th November 2017, 05:33 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

For any country to seek to have power over others, and to boast about it, is frankly evil.
I don't think that is how it was meant. "Seek to have power over others "?
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Old 10th November 2017, 05:58 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
The place we've been looking at would give us a bigger house, a couple of out buildings that I could run a variant of my current work out of, a small, fairly low turnover business with potential to expand a bit, and a parcel of land, all for about two thirds of the price of our semi detached rabbit hutch. Add in a sensible cost of living and a social ethos that seems far more like our own and it's attractive. Very attractive.

Sounds great. Bringing a new business in too. What's not to like? What general area?

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Oh, and whiskey. Shouldn't forget the whiskey.....

If you spell it like that you'll be run out of town.
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Old 10th November 2017, 05:59 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I don't think that is how it was meant. "Seek to have power over others "?

OK, how about "thinking having power over others is somehow a good thing."
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:26 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Compare the USA with a very small western European country like Iceland. You'd be insane to want to live in America rather than Iceland.
Right, and that's why so many people are trying to immigrate to Iceland, as compared to the USA..
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:28 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The USA does try to reduce gun deaths. Indeed, the USA succeeds in reducing gun deaths--the trend is downward year after year.
Yes - it's great that you've managed to reduce your gun death rate from horrifyingly high down to only ridiculously high. Good job!
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:27 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes - it's great that you've managed to reduce your gun death rate from horrifyingly high down to only ridiculously high. Good job!
In reality we haven't. The gun death rate is trending upwards, and the last two years have been particularly bad.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/201...un-deaths.html

There is no sense in which we have a grip on this problem. It's as absurd as claiming that we're winning the war on drugs.
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Old 10th November 2017, 11:57 PM   #290
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So many people in this thread are absolutely ******* clueless.

Do you think the 10 to 15 thousand gun deaths in the US each year are magically going to disappear if guns didn't exist? At least half of them would still find a way. Probably more. And a good chunk of those are happening because of gang wars and/or the war on drugs. These are pissed off ****** people with huge problems.

It's the violence.

It's not the guns.

But please, continue to fall for the BS so you feel better about being treated like ****** babies by your governments.
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Old 11th November 2017, 12:50 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
OK, how about "thinking having power over others is somehow a good thing."


Who thinks that? Maybe the British nobility? Americans donít think that way - I certainly donít. We have alliances with many countries where we agree to help defend them in return for XYZ. Itís not a matter of having power over them but using our power to increase security for us and our allies.

Whatever the case...do you have a problem with the current arrangement?
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Old 11th November 2017, 01:34 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
So many people in this thread are absolutely ******* clueless......
Indeed:

Quote:
But please, continue to fall for the BS so you feel better about being treated like ****** babies by your governments.
What you can't grasp is that we really, really like not having guns in our society. It is extremely popular, and for good reason. It is absolutely nothing to do with the government. We turn on the TV news and see what is going on in the States, and thank our lucky stars that we don't live surrounded by people with guns.
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Old 11th November 2017, 01:41 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sounds great. Bringing a new business in too. What's not to like? What general area?
Borders


Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If you spell it like that you'll be run out of town.
Hhhmm, I blame Whyte & MacKay. Probably shouldn't have trusted people who can't spell "White".
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Old 11th November 2017, 02:52 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Do you think the 10 to 15 thousand gun deaths in the US each year are magically going to disappear if guns didn't exist? At least half of them would still find a way. Probably more. And a good chunk of those are happening because of gang wars and/or the war on drugs. These are pissed off ****** people with huge problems.
Absolutely nothing at all can be done. We know, you've said that already. In fact that is the whole point of this thread.
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Old 11th November 2017, 02:56 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Right. We are not going to completely "solve" the gun problem. We all know this and I completely agree with this aspect of your post. My point is that Americans think of guns in the same way we think of cars and other dangerous things. For some reason, our friends across the pond have a stigma/phobia attached to guns that they do not attach to other dangerous items. As if people dying by gunfire is somehow a worse death than drowning at the beach, getting smashed up in a drunk-driving accident or getting run over by a terrorist by a lorry (another UK word I love) on a bridge.
Stigma/phobia is too strong a word. We are not used to seeing guns and they are not part of routine life. So we do get a reaction on seeing an armed policeman, let alone a member of the public with a gun. That would likely cause a bit of a stooshie, with calls to the police.

The drink drive limit in Scotland is lower than the rest of the UK, as a tougher stance is taken against drink driving. The Glasgow Airport terrorist attack (a car driven at a building) has resulted in a massive target hardening of the terminus and one of the most secure airports (which is a pain for dropping people off and picking them up) in the world. So, evidence Scotland also takes a tough stance against other deaths, not just guns.

Quote:
The previously mentioned school shooting in Scotland is a perfect example of this stigma/phobia. There was no problem with school shootings in Scotland before this incident. There have been no problems since. The laws passed in reaction to this tragedy have had no measurable effect except to restrict the rights of otherwise harmless and blameless people. The laws certainly didn't stop the Cumbria shootings. Just the presence of a firearm is going to carry a risk of firearm death - a level of risk that citizens of the UK seem to be OK with if we are to go by the form of argument used in this thread given that there has been no further gun control after that massacre. And as long as we are making ridiculous arguments, the UK seems to be OK with homicides by vehicles, knives and bombs if the 37 deaths just this year in 3 incidents are anything to go by. I guess you love cars, knives and bombs more than life itself, huh?
Another school (or single place shooting) is greatly reduced by no handguns or other weapons that can fire multiple shots quickly. That gives people time to escape. Cumbria was a moving shooter driving about, reloading and finding new people to shoot. That cannot be prevented by any further gun control, so nothing was changed after Cumbria. No one can stop that kind of mass shooting. Hungerford resulted in the ban of certain types of rapid, multiple fire guns, which again was a sensible reaction as it made that kind of attack near impossible. Cumbria has not resulted in a ban on shotguns or rifles. You have failed to understand the changes made and how they were appropriate and where no change was made because it was pointless.

Quote:
Americans, by and large, do not have this particular stigma/phobia associated with guns. All accidental death/intentional homicide is equally tragic. A gun is just another useful tool that can be very dangerous and carries some risk in allowing ownership/usage. We should do something to mitigate the problem but it can never be eliminated.
You have failed to note the problem with US gun laws compared to the UK. For there to be another Hungerford style mass shooting in the UK would involve the very risky importation of weapons that have rapid fire and large magazines. There are no illegal ones available as they were all surrendered. Such a massacre is made highly unlikely. If one state in the USA decided to ban such weapons, there is an easy way to import and there will still be loads of illegal ones. A massacre remains highly likely.
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Old 11th November 2017, 03:02 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
So many people in this thread are absolutely ******* clueless.

Do you think the 10 to 15 thousand gun deaths in the US each year are magically going to disappear if guns didn't exist?
Yes, it is hard to shoot someone when there is no gun

Quote:
At least half of them would still find a way. Probably more. And a good chunk of those are happening because of gang wars and/or the war on drugs. These are pissed off ****** people with huge problems.

It's the violence.

It's not the guns.

But please, continue to fall for the BS so you feel better about being treated like ****** babies by your governments.
We have gangs, with little access to guns and instead they fight and only occasionally kill each other. Guns enhance the risk of death because they are more effective at killing than fists, knives and any other weapon.

So, it is the violence and the guns. Both.
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:20 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
So many people in this thread are absolutely ******* clueless.

Do you think the 10 to 15 thousand gun deaths in the US each year are magically going to disappear if guns didn't exist? At least half of them would still find a way. Probably more. And a good chunk of those are happening because of gang wars and/or the war on drugs. These are pissed off ****** people with huge problems.

It's the violence.

It's not the guns.

But please, continue to fall for the BS so you feel better about being treated like ****** babies by your governments.
You provide a very good example of what the opening post was saying.
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:25 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Stigma/phobia is too strong a word. We are not used to seeing guns and they are not part of routine life. ...snip...
Just depends where you are in the country, I've mentioned more than once I live about 35 miles as the crow flies from London and it is anything but unusual to hear shooting when you are out and about or walking the dog. And seeing someone with a gun is really not that rare.

Indeed my local park has as one of it's "No fun" commandments "No shooting".
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Old 11th November 2017, 04:35 AM   #299
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Agreed. I live in a similar area and personally have shot small caliber target rifles, shotguns, crossbows, air pistols and rifles, and (while in Texas) a 357 revolver. I wouldn't characterise my self as having a phobia of guns but I absolutely support our system of licensing and regulation.
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:05 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Borders.

Me too. Peeblesshire. Let's have a drink together some time after you've moved. I'll introduce you to the local Yes groups and English Scots for Independence.

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Hhhmm, I blame Whyte & MacKay. Probably shouldn't have trusted people who can't spell "White".

They're Irish, maybe?
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Old 11th November 2017, 05:24 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
It's the violence.

It's not the guns.
I guess what you're saying here is that Americans are just inherently more violent than everybody else.
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:31 AM   #302
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There is no evidence Americans are more violent. But if you add a gun into a violent confrontation, the risk of death is increased because guns are very good at killing compared to other weapons or fists. That's why the army switched to guns from swords.

A huge barrier to the USA being able to control its guns, is the sheer number of them. Even if there was a consensus that guns should only be in the hands of suitable people, achieving that is impossible because of the huge number of guns with criminals who will not give them up.
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Old 12th November 2017, 03:26 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Even if there was a consensus that guns should only be in the hands of suitable people, achieving that is impossible because of the huge number of guns with criminals who will not give them up.
We have this saying here that I've actually heard in many other countries. Well by many I mean all I know.

It goes "You have to start some where"

Slightly different to "Not worth starting"



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Old 12th November 2017, 03:49 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
We have this saying here that I've actually heard in many other countries. Well by many I mean all I know.

It goes "You have to start some where"

Slightly different to "Not worth starting"
Where do you start curing an incurable cancer?

My point is that when even kids massacring kids is not enough to result in a national consensus and will to control guns, NOTHING will. It is an indisputable fact that repeated massacres (four or more dead), often involving youths killing or being killed or both (most gang shootings are youths) has not had even a significant change in US attitudes and laws.

One school massacre in the UK resulted in a national consensus and sensible change. The UK does not even have multiple gang shootings and when a kid is killed in a gang related shooting; Rhys Jones, it is national news and becomes one of the most famous, talked about, dramatised murders of the C21st.

The most that can be achieved is what has already been done. At least in Texas, to be allowed to have a CCW, you have to get a permit and undergo background checks. Buy a gun from a shop and you have to get a background check.

The problem is the number of guns and people for which there is no control at all, so allowing criminals, nuts, terrorists, angry people, kids and other unsuitable people easy access. That is totally out of control, so much so it cannot be significantly reduced without action that the USA is just not prepared or able to do.

To reduce guns deaths the USA would need to -

1 - have one universal system across the entire country of possession of a firearm only with a permit involving proper background.
2 - a record of every one who has a permit.
3 - a simple way of removing permits and guns from people who show good reason they are no longer suitable
4 - a surrender of all firearms that are not going to held by someone with a permit.
5 - a consistent and thorough enforcement of the system of permits and severe punishment for having a gun with no permit.

Anything else is a sticking plaster on a gaping wound, it is not going to be effective.
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Old 12th November 2017, 04:04 AM   #305
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Another way of looking at this. In the UK there have been four mass shootings (Hungerford, Dumblane, Monkseaton, Cumbria). Three were by firearms certificate holders with legally held guns. One was a legally held gun that a relative got hold of.

The UK reaction was one of universal horror and agreement national action was needed.
The main action taken to reduce the chances of a repeat, was to improve background checks and the security of legally held guns. It was targetted action against the most likely cause of a massacre (a legally held gun). The result is we are very confident only suitable people have guns and they are kept secure.

In the USA if a massacre takes place, society splits rather than unifies and many of the action called for is not appropriate to dealing with what happened. Most of the USA shootings are by illegally held guns in the hands of people who should not have one. But the action called on is often to restrict guns with those who have not caused the problems.
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Old 12th November 2017, 05:43 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
In the USA if a massacre takes place, society splits rather than unifies and many of the action called for is not appropriate to dealing with what happened. Most of the USA shootings are by illegally held guns in the hands of people who should not have one. But the action called on is often to restrict guns with those who have not caused the problems.
If you're talking about mass shootings, as it seems you were, then almost all of the guns were legally held by a member of the shooter's household.

Mass shootings are the tip of the iceberg in a country that had 36,000 gun deaths last year, but as the NYT graph implies, our problem is just that we have way too many *********** guns. Any reform that doesn't reduce the number of guns in the US is not likely to have much effect.

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Old 12th November 2017, 07:25 AM   #307
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I do not think the problem is just the sheer number of guns. Other countries, notably Switzerland has lots of guns. The difference is, in Switzerland it is only suitable people who have the guns and they are properly secured. In the USA it is a whole load of unsuitable people such as criminals, angry people and kids. They are also not routinely kept secure, so children just find them and shoot themselves or each other.
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Old 12th November 2017, 10:59 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not think the problem is just the sheer number of guns. Other countries, notably Switzerland has lots of guns.
Almost every country has lots of guns, in the hands of its military, which is the situation in Switzerland.

The problem is in fact that we have too many guns (in the hands of private citizens, independent of any military service, if you want to be precise).
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:26 PM   #309
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Thought this was pretty funny

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I AGREE
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Old 12th November 2017, 04:05 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Another way of looking at this. In the UK there have been four mass shootings (Hungerford, Dunblane, Monkseaton, Cumbria). Three were by firearms certificate holders with legally held guns. One was a legally held gun that a relative got hold of.

I hadn't heard about the Monkseaton incident, possibly because there was only one fatality. Would that even be classed as a mass shooting in the USA? Anyway, while reading up about that I came across another one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_...(spree_killer)

This was back in 1978. Five victims apparently, and the killer had schzophrenia. He had a legally-held gun but by the sound of it he shouldn't have been allowed to have that. I don't remember a carry-on about firearms regulations following that incident.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 12th November 2017 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 12th November 2017, 05:03 PM   #311
cullennz
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I hadn't heard about the Monkseaton incident, possibly because there was only one fatality. Would that even be classed as a mass shooting in the USA? Anyway, while reading up about that I came across another one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_...(spree_killer)

This was back in 1978. Five victims apparently, and the killer had schzophrenia. He had a legally-held gun but by the sound of it he shouldn't have been allowed to have that. I don't remember a carry-on about firearms regulations following that incident.
It was 40 years ago

Who knows what calls for what there were

Did you read about his 2013 thing?

That would freak the **** out of me finding out that was happening next door!
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 12th November 2017, 05:05 PM   #312
Rolfe
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Yeah, it's in the wiki article. Absolutely hair-raising.
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Old 12th November 2017, 08:15 PM   #313
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In the US, looking to the federal government for improvement on gun control is just wrong. It's not going to happen. Remember however, we are a small "r" republic and the states have latitude. There are states with background checks for all gun transfers. There are states that ban assault weapons. Not enough but there are some.

It's important to remember that we are a federal system and states make laws to restrict gun sales and ownership. All of America is not Texas.
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:51 PM   #314
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Who do you think is funding the gun industry?
Gun consumers, who make up a tiny portion of the USA population. Also the government.
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Old 12th November 2017, 11:58 PM   #315
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
So many people in this thread are absolutely ******* clueless.

Do you think the 10 to 15 thousand gun deaths in the US each year are magically going to disappear if guns didn't exist?
Not only do I think it, I know it. It is a logical fact that if there were no guns, no one would die from guns.
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Old 13th November 2017, 02:09 AM   #316
cullennz
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There is an easy answer

Do a split thing like Korea and ex Germany

Have a Nth USA and a Sth USA (Or get funky and go side ways)

All the gun obsessed people can live in one bit with as many weapons as they want and Trump as boss. Killing each other willy nilly.

All the normal people can move to the other bit living in harmony. Maybe going vegan, picking flowers and smoking weed.

They won't need a boss as they will be ruled by peace and love.

Trump can build a wall and everthing

Problem solved



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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With todayís Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 13th November 2017, 02:27 AM   #317
Nessie
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
In the US, looking to the federal government for improvement on gun control is just wrong. It's not going to happen. Remember however, we are a small "r" republic and the states have latitude. There are states with background checks for all gun transfers. There are states that ban assault weapons. Not enough but there are some.

It's important to remember that we are a federal system and states make laws to restrict gun sales and ownership. All of America is not Texas.
The lack of universal controls causing numerous loopholes is one of the reasons why it is impossible for the country as a whole to control guns.
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Old 13th November 2017, 07:52 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I do not think the problem is just the sheer number of guns. Other countries, notably Switzerland has lots of guns. The difference is, in Switzerland it is only suitable people who have the guns and they are properly secured. In the USA it is a whole load of unsuitable people such as criminals, angry people and kids. They are also not routinely kept secure, so children just find them and shoot themselves or each other.
Switzerland and the United States have high levels of gun ownership but different reasons for having a gun. In Switzerland it is mostly military service, sport and hunting. Guns are kept locked up and unloaded. In the United States it is all about fear and self defense. Guns are kept loaded and in easy reach. All too often with a round in the chamber and the safety off. Far too often they get used in a moment of anger or despair.
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Old 13th November 2017, 09:11 AM   #319
paulhutch
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
In the US, looking to the federal government for improvement on gun control is just wrong. It's not going to happen. Remember however, we are a small "r" republic and the states have latitude. There are states with background checks for all gun transfers. There are states that ban assault weapons. Not enough but there are some.

It's important to remember that we are a federal system and states make laws to restrict gun sales and ownership. All of America is not Texas.
While the states can set laws to some extent, they are limited by the 2nd amendment on how far they can go. This almost certainly contributes to why no state comes even close to getting the death by firearm/100k population as good as the lowest rates around the world.

Ten lowest rates by state:
Hawaii2.71
Massachusetts3.18
New York4.39
Connecticut4.48
Rhode Island5.33
New Jersey5.69
New Hampshire7.03
Minnesota7.88
California7.89
Iowa8.19

Ten lowest rates by country
Hong Kong0.03
Japan0.06
South Korea0.08
Romania0.14
Qatar0.15
Singapore0.16
Belarus0.23
United Kingdom0.23
Ukraine0.24
Poland0.26
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Old 13th November 2017, 09:20 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
In the US, looking to the federal government for improvement on gun control is just wrong. It's not going to happen. Remember however, we are a small "r" republic and the states have latitude. There are states with background checks for all gun transfers. There are states that ban assault weapons. Not enough but there are some.

It's important to remember that we are a federal system and states make laws to restrict gun sales and ownership. All of America is not Texas.
Minor pet peeve, I believe you are using the word republic where you mean federation. Among the many descriptions of the US government, its a federal republic.

Republic, in the modern sense means a government that is not a monarchy, at the time of the founding of the US it meant a government which derives its authority from the people but wasn't a democracy.

A federation is a nation made up of partially self governing states that divides sovereignty between the central government at the state's governments. In contrast to a unitary state inwhich all sovereignty is vested in the central government.
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