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#321 |
Graduate Poster
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#322 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
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#323 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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#324 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,894
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Pew Research Center: Key takeaways on Americans’ views of guns and gun ownership.
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#325 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,151
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Been mentioned before, but here in NZ if your reason for getting a gun licence is self defence it automatically disqualifies you from getting one.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
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#326 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,228
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#327 |
Forum ¾-Wit Pro Tem
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,002
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I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 - I'll miss Tim. Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
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#328 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,834
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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
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#329 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,834
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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
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#330 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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A survey of less than 4000 people or a little over .001% of Americans. Not sure how many people CNN queried in their poll. I think the pollsters are wanting to see more than they should from their results.
25% of anything is hardly ever small. If only 25% of drivers drove drunk or didn't use their seat belts, would you call this small? |
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#331 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 28,834
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All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine |
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#332 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,665
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If you are using the same definition of mass shooting that says there are multiple ones per month that is mostly gang violence.
If not you are talking about a very small minority of shootings in general, and yes white people are responsible for a large amount of that tiny percentage. I don't think you made the point you wanted to make. |
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#333 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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That is still exceptionally high in a country that is peaceful and the risks of attack in the home low. Which means the comment on the fear and self defence is at least reasonable, if not somewhat exaggerated.
Like NZ, in the UK self defence is not a reason to get a gun. I do not know I there is another western nation where it is (I know some allow exceptions for high risk people who can prove an actual threat exists). To have effective gun control, that perceived concern, shall we call it, that so many Americans feel regarding being attacked in their own home, would need to reduce dramatically. Which is not going to happen. |
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#334 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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Do these polls exist in the UK or in NZ? Would a person owning a gun for defense (regardless of the "official reason") admit to it to a stranger who claimed to be conducting a poll?
Are you certain that defense is that pressing of a concern to those gun owners? Perhaps it is just a trivial matter to them that is less important than location and locks on the door? As for myself, self defense is a minor concern, but that's why I bought my 1st pistol as there back in 1988 as there was a shooting right outside my apartment complex. Even though I now keep a shotgun configured for that kind of situation now, it really isn't much of a concern for me and is not the reason I own the rest of my collection. Those target rifles and the 50 BMG rifle are not going to help me much during a home invasion nor are they something I'm likely to carry while out on the town. |
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#335 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,653
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There is an enormous amount of misconception by most who are posting on this thread about why people own gun. It is a freaking tradition and most folks have gun for hunting and other sports activities. There is not the fear that is constantly harped upon here. I live in a safe neighborhood with no crime for many years, yet I do keep a shotgun in my bedroom in a safe condition. All of my other valuables are in a safe. I do carry a concealed firearm on a frequent basis, but that doesn't mean I am in fear. If I knew I might need a firearm at anywhere I go, It wouldn't go there. I am cautious, but I am not in fear.
So many ignorant posters misinterpret that as fear, yet it's anything but. Quite frankly, I believe that many posters in these gun related threads have more fear of firearms than I do. |
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#336 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 22,781
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#337 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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There are no polls as the question is moot. You cannot use self defence as a reason for a gun. If someone lied to get a gun, they probably would lie if asked by a stranger conducting a poll.
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#338 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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Whether or not it is fear driven, the desire to have a gun to hand as a "freaking tradition" as you call it, is one reason why there will be no successful gun control in the USA. Americans are too attached to their guns for there to be the kind of regulation required to control guns and lower the instances of death.
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#339 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,653
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How many times do you need to assert this? It is quite obvious you will not let this go. I don't appreciate the constant nose thumbing and I suspect there are others who don't appreciate the same. Your continued commentary is not helpful at all. You need to let it go and fine another past time.
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#340 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 22,781
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No, Nessie is right.
If people like you feel the need to wander around carrying a gun without any particular reason* then there is no way to interpret it other than habit/ attachment/ tradition/ desire to have a gun to hand. If you compare the safety of 1000 people walking around in public with zero guns, and the safety of the same people walking around with 1 gun, it is incontrovertible that the second group is less safe. The combined net effect of people owning guns is a decline in general levels of safety of the populace. No-one should have to explain this. The people carrying the guns should explain, though, why the general benefit of the society in which they live is entirely secondary to their own whims. *It wasn't a difficult question, I didn't think. |
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#341 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,044
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OK, so you're missing some background.
In the UK (exc. Northern Ireland) to apply for a firearms or shotgun certificate to legally own a gun, you have to have a valid reason for owning it. This could be that you are a member of a shooting club, or have land to hunt on, or have a land owner's permission to hunt on their land. "Self defence" or "I like gunz" are not considered valid reasons. Further, the type of gun(s) you own and the quanitity of ammunition have to be commensurate with the given reason. Someone doing small bore target shooting could quite reasonably have 500 rounds in their possesion at one time, someone deer hunting with a 7.62 would be very unlikely to have any need to for possessing that amount of ammunition at any given time. These restrictions contribute to the lower rate of firearm related fatalities per firearm in the UK compared to the US |
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#342 |
Lackey
Administrator
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I wish I knew how to quit you |
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#343 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#344 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#345 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,872
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Hello. |
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#346 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,872
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Hello. |
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#347 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,143
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#348 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,872
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Hello. |
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#349 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 22,781
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#350 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,587
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No, my argument is that it is evidence, of an attachment to firearms which has and will continue to prevent proper gun control from ever succeeding in the USA.
That people feel the need for a gun for defence even when the risk of attack is minimal is consequential because it causes lots more guns to be in people's houses than otherwise. Then those people are more likely to reach for the gun, even if it is not required, because give a man a hammer and everything become a nail. That results in instances like this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...hihiro_Hattori the death of a Japanese youth who went to the wrong house for a party and was shot dead. That kind of instance just does not happen anywhere else in the western world. Ever. |
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#351 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 17,228
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OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
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#352 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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I'm familiar with that stuff. Are you suggesting that a person who owns a gun for the "right" reason will not also desire one for self defense?
It seems to be like some claims I've read in the past that there are no gays in the US military (pre-1994) because anytime they come out or are caught, they're discharged. |
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#353 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 8,970
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Not contradictory and here's why. While you might think (I'm guessing) owning a gun for any reason is some huge deal, it is not for me. I grew up with guns in the house, they're just things/tools to me.
Keeping a gun in the house ready to use is not something that concerns me that much. When I leave the state for work/vacation, the gun is more secured. At times upon arriving back home it might be weeks before I drag it out of the hidden safe and stage it for use. Where I live I've little reason to be concerned about personal security. But I feel that a ready to use shotgun is acceptable to have in the house. |
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#354 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Audiophile/biker/sceptic |
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#355 |
Embarrasingly illiterate
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,151
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The thing is (at least in NZ) the chances of someone breaking into your home with the intent to actually do you harm, as opposed to opportunistic thieving, is relatively miniscule., and then the chances of them having a decent weapon if any is even minisculer (think I may have made up this word)
If you genuinely needed a gun for protection the only remotely plausible reason this would be true is if you have some sort of connection to organised crime or a history of violence. If you have such a connection or any history of violence then this also disqualifies you from getting a licence. So tough luck, double whammy If it is genuinely that bad go to the cops People can obviously lie, but then there is the other thing You have to have two character references. One has to be from your next of kin and one has to be from some one that is not related to you I know what you are thinking. They could also lie This is true. But then you get a visit from the cops to find out where you are going to store it, so they are also checking out your environment. This isn't going to stop anyone really really intent on getting one, because anyone can get anything with enough cash But it must be pretty good as we don't have multi mass shootings or eye watering homicides by gun The main point of me writing that is that NO ONE CARES NO ONE screams that their rights are restricted. Every one is fine with it. NO ONE thinks we are living in a nanny state Most countries find the US's need for guns crazy This could never happen in the US obviously, because it is too late Apologies for the rambling |
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record. Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000 |
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#356 |
Now. Do it now.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 22,781
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Pretty much. People around here who have shotguns for vermin control know that if they were to even have the gun in their hand in the event of, say, a burglary, or the more usual pilfering of stuff from around the farmyard, that they'd lose their license, and likely end up in court. As a self-defense item they are therefore all but useless.
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"The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place." The Don That's what we've sunk to here. |
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#357 |
Master Poster
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#358 |
Penultimate Amazing
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#359 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,514
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This stuff has had an affect on me, especially over the past few years. I was never a gun enthusiast but I bought a shotgun about 4 years ago, and I did buy it for self defense and only that.
But now I think the smartest thing for me to do in a home invasion is to go out the back door and run. Note that I live alone, no kids or anyone else to defend. I mean do I want to live or be a bad-ass? Run = live. I also would not want to have to live with the fact that I killed someone. I'm pretty sure it would haunt me even if I were totally justified. On the other hand, if certain items of mine were stolen it could literally ruin my life and livelihood, and that in my opinion is worth lethal defense. Sorry buddy, you made the choice to try and destroy my life. I work damn hard and nobody is going to just take that from me. To clarify - I believe that I am defending my life if someone steals my livelihood from me, the thing that puts food in my mouth and a roof over me. Hell, anything that is important to me. If someone tries to take that I will kill them if I have to and I think it should be (if it is not already here) within my right to do so. I am totally fine with lethal defense if someone breaks into a home. I have no tolerance for stealing. But I don't live in fear of that happening. I have family members who are mild gun enthusiasts. When I listen to them they sound completely stupid. Not about gun laws, but guns in general. And it isn't that they don't know a lot about guns, it's that the whole conversation is just - sad maybe? It is weird, but when you grow up with it it's hard to think differently about it. Then again - I live at the end of a dark street and a car was stolen from in front of my house a few months ago. It's a nice neighborhood but someone came into our nice neighborhood to steal something. I've been way more alert since then. I've been talking to my cousin about buying my gun but he hasn't yet. Now I'm not sure if I want to sell it. Sorry now I'm rambling. My point is, that I'd be happy with zero guns. How can that happen at this point? I've been against most gun laws proposed because they are stupid, and that was before I actually owned one. Tired of guns. Tired of watching a great movie only to have it result in a shootout at the end. But I'm tired of the violence here. My friend, a 110 pound woman, was jumped by a gang of six men and women and beat unconscious recently. They stole her phone and purse. The cops caught one but let her go. They f'n let her go. These people are sick and even the cops won't do anything. So? Who goes first? We're deep in it over here. |
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I don't care. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/daredevil-dave-2-motorcycle/id1013225596?mt= |
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#360 |
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 22,402
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"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut |
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