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Old 13th November 2017, 09:22 AM   #321
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There is an easy answer

Do a split thing like Korea and ex Germany

Have a Nth USA and a Sth USA (Or get funky and go side ways)

All the gun obsessed people can live in one bit with as many weapons as they want and Trump as boss. Killing each other willy nilly.

All the normal people can move to the other bit living in harmony. Maybe going vegan, picking flowers and smoking weed.

They won't need a boss as they will be ruled by peace and love.

Trump can build a wall and everthing

Problem solved



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Oddly, we've pretty much already done this.
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:29 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Gun consumers, who make up a tiny portion of the USA population. Also the government.
About 25% of Americans own guns. Is that how you define tiny?
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:34 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
....In the United States it is all about fear and self defense. ...
Not even close to true. Where are you getting this from? Even CCN claims their poll shows less than half of gun owners surveyed claimed their reason for owning was defense.

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Old 13th November 2017, 11:50 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Not even close to true. Where are you getting this from? Even CCN claims their poll shows less than half of gun owners surveyed claimed their reason for owning was defense.

Ranb
Pew Research Center: Key takeaways on Americans’ views of guns and gun ownership.

Quote:
Protection tops the list of reasons for owning a gun. While many gun owners say they have more than one reason for owning a firearm, 67% cite protection as a major reason. About four-in-ten gun owners (38%) say hunting is a major reason, and 30% cite sport shooting. Smaller shares cite a gun collection or their job as major reasons.
(emphasis added)
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Old 13th November 2017, 12:14 PM   #325
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Been mentioned before, but here in NZ if your reason for getting a gun licence is self defence it automatically disqualifies you from getting one.
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Old 13th November 2017, 03:46 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I agree. It could be reinterpreted if the will was there. The will isn't there, though.

Suppose the constitution had said something that is now universally regarded as unconscionable. Say it had said that women should not be allowed to vote for example. Would we see America meekly denying its women a vote just because it was in the constitution? I'll bet we wouldn't. They'd find a way round it, because they would want to do that. It's all about the will.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourte...s_Constitution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighte...s_Constitution
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Old 13th November 2017, 05:13 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I agree. It could be reinterpreted if the will was there. The will isn't there, though.

Suppose the constitution had said something that is now universally regarded as unconscionable. Say it had said that women should not be allowed to vote for example. Would we see America meekly denying its women a vote just because it was in the constitution? I'll bet we wouldn't. They'd find a way round it, because they would want to do that. It's all about the will.
We would amend the constitution. Like we did. That would be the 19th Amendment.
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Old 13th November 2017, 07:52 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Switzerland and the United States have high levels of gun ownership but different reasons for having a gun. In Switzerland it is mostly military service, sport and hunting. Guns are kept locked up and unloaded. In the United States it is all about fear and self defense. Guns are kept loaded and in easy reach. All too often with a round in the chamber and the safety off. Far too often they get used in a moment of anger or despair.
All too often, it is about fear of colored people.
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Old 13th November 2017, 07:54 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
About 25% of Americans own guns. Is that how you define tiny?
Yep. Also, it's mostly white men who own guns, the same demographic that is responsible for most mass shootings.
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Old 13th November 2017, 08:57 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
A survey of less than 4000 people or a little over .001% of Americans. Not sure how many people CNN queried in their poll. I think the pollsters are wanting to see more than they should from their results.

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yep. Also, it's mostly white men who own guns, the same demographic that is responsible for most mass shootings.
25% of anything is hardly ever small. If only 25% of drivers drove drunk or didn't use their seat belts, would you call this small?

Last edited by Ranb; 13th November 2017 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 13th November 2017, 09:10 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
A survey of less than 4000 people or a little over .001% of Americans. Not sure how many people CNN queried in their poll. I think the pollsters are wanting to see more than they should from their results.


25% of anything is hardly ever small. If only 25% of drivers drove drunk or didn't use their seat belts, would you call this small?
I certainly would not want 25% of drivers passing legislation to allow them to drive drunk.
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:46 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Yep. Also, it's mostly white men who own guns, the same demographic that is responsible for most mass shootings.
If you are using the same definition of mass shooting that says there are multiple ones per month that is mostly gang violence.

If not you are talking about a very small minority of shootings in general, and yes white people are responsible for a large amount of that tiny percentage.

I don't think you made the point you wanted to make.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:32 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Not even close to true. Where are you getting this from? Even CCN claims their poll shows less than half of gun owners surveyed claimed their reason for owning was defense.

Ranb
That is still exceptionally high in a country that is peaceful and the risks of attack in the home low. Which means the comment on the fear and self defence is at least reasonable, if not somewhat exaggerated.

Like NZ, in the UK self defence is not a reason to get a gun. I do not know I there is another western nation where it is (I know some allow exceptions for high risk people who can prove an actual threat exists).

To have effective gun control, that perceived concern, shall we call it, that so many Americans feel regarding being attacked in their own home, would need to reduce dramatically. Which is not going to happen.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:01 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Like NZ, in the UK self defence is not a reason to get a gun. I do not know I there is another western nation where it is (I know some allow exceptions for high risk people who can prove an actual threat exists).
Do these polls exist in the UK or in NZ? Would a person owning a gun for defense (regardless of the "official reason") admit to it to a stranger who claimed to be conducting a poll?

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
To have effective gun control, that perceived concern, shall we call it, that so many Americans feel regarding being attacked in their own home, would need to reduce dramatically. Which is not going to happen.
Are you certain that defense is that pressing of a concern to those gun owners? Perhaps it is just a trivial matter to them that is less important than location and locks on the door?

As for myself, self defense is a minor concern, but that's why I bought my 1st pistol as there back in 1988 as there was a shooting right outside my apartment complex. Even though I now keep a shotgun configured for that kind of situation now, it really isn't much of a concern for me and is not the reason I own the rest of my collection. Those target rifles and the 50 BMG rifle are not going to help me much during a home invasion nor are they something I'm likely to carry while out on the town.

Last edited by Ranb; 14th November 2017 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:34 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Do these polls exist in the UK or in NZ? Would a person owning a gun for defense (regardless of the "official reason") admit to it to a stranger who claimed to be conducting a poll?


Are you certain that defense is that pressing of a concern to those gun owners? Perhaps it is just a trivial matter to them that is less important than location and locks on the door?

As for myself, self defense is a minor concern, but that's why I bought my 1st pistol as there back in 1988 as there was a shooting right outside my apartment complex. Even though I now keep a shotgun configured for that kind of situation now, it really isn't much of a concern for me and is not the reason I own the rest of my collection. Those target rifles and the 50 BMG rifle are not going to help me much during a home invasion nor are they something I'm likely to carry while out on the town.
There is an enormous amount of misconception by most who are posting on this thread about why people own gun. It is a freaking tradition and most folks have gun for hunting and other sports activities. There is not the fear that is constantly harped upon here. I live in a safe neighborhood with no crime for many years, yet I do keep a shotgun in my bedroom in a safe condition. All of my other valuables are in a safe. I do carry a concealed firearm on a frequent basis, but that doesn't mean I am in fear. If I knew I might need a firearm at anywhere I go, It wouldn't go there. I am cautious, but I am not in fear.

So many ignorant posters misinterpret that as fear, yet it's anything but. Quite frankly, I believe that many posters in these gun related threads have more fear of firearms than I do.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:51 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
.......I do carry a concealed firearm on a frequent basis.........
Why?
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:52 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Do these polls exist in the UK or in NZ? Would a person owning a gun for defense (regardless of the "official reason") admit to it to a stranger who claimed to be conducting a poll?
There are no polls as the question is moot. You cannot use self defence as a reason for a gun. If someone lied to get a gun, they probably would lie if asked by a stranger conducting a poll.

Quote:
Are you certain that defense is that pressing of a concern to those gun owners? Perhaps it is just a trivial matter to them that is less important than location and locks on the door?

As for myself, self defense is a minor concern, but that's why I bought my 1st pistol as there back in 1988 as there was a shooting right outside my apartment complex. Even though I now keep a shotgun configured for that kind of situation now, it really isn't much of a concern for me and is not the reason I own the rest of my collection. Those target rifles and the 50 BMG rifle are not going to help me much during a home invasion nor are they something I'm likely to carry while out on the town.
The research said "67% cite protection as a major reason". If you want to dispute the research, show your evidence why that figure is wrong.
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:55 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
There is an enormous amount of misconception by most who are posting on this thread about why people own gun. It is a freaking tradition and most folks have gun for hunting and other sports activities. There is not the fear that is constantly harped upon here. I live in a safe neighborhood with no crime for many years, yet I do keep a shotgun in my bedroom in a safe condition. All of my other valuables are in a safe. I do carry a concealed firearm on a frequent basis, but that doesn't mean I am in fear. If I knew I might need a firearm at anywhere I go, It wouldn't go there. I am cautious, but I am not in fear.

So many ignorant posters misinterpret that as fear, yet it's anything but. Quite frankly, I believe that many posters in these gun related threads have more fear of firearms than I do.
Whether or not it is fear driven, the desire to have a gun to hand as a "freaking tradition" as you call it, is one reason why there will be no successful gun control in the USA. Americans are too attached to their guns for there to be the kind of regulation required to control guns and lower the instances of death.
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Old 14th November 2017, 08:27 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Whether or not it is fear driven, the desire to have a gun to hand as a "freaking tradition" as you call it, is one reason why there will be no successful gun control in the USA. Americans are too attached to their guns for there to be the kind of regulation required to control guns and lower the instances of death.
How many times do you need to assert this? It is quite obvious you will not let this go. I don't appreciate the constant nose thumbing and I suspect there are others who don't appreciate the same. Your continued commentary is not helpful at all. You need to let it go and fine another past time.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:18 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
How many times do you need to assert this? It is quite obvious you will not let this go. I don't appreciate the constant nose thumbing and I suspect there are others who don't appreciate the same. Your continued commentary is not helpful at all. You need to let it go and fine another past time.
No, Nessie is right.

If people like you feel the need to wander around carrying a gun without any particular reason* then there is no way to interpret it other than habit/ attachment/ tradition/ desire to have a gun to hand. If you compare the safety of 1000 people walking around in public with zero guns, and the safety of the same people walking around with 1 gun, it is incontrovertible that the second group is less safe. The combined net effect of people owning guns is a decline in general levels of safety of the populace. No-one should have to explain this. The people carrying the guns should explain, though, why the general benefit of the society in which they live is entirely secondary to their own whims.



*It wasn't a difficult question, I didn't think.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:30 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Do these polls exist in the UK or in NZ? Would a person owning a gun for defense (regardless of the "official reason") admit to it to a stranger who claimed to be conducting a poll?
OK, so you're missing some background.

In the UK (exc. Northern Ireland) to apply for a firearms or shotgun certificate to legally own a gun, you have to have a valid reason for owning it.

This could be that you are a member of a shooting club, or have land to hunt on, or have a land owner's permission to hunt on their land.

"Self defence" or "I like gunz" are not considered valid reasons.

Further, the type of gun(s) you own and the quanitity of ammunition have to be commensurate with the given reason.

Someone doing small bore target shooting could quite reasonably have 500 rounds in their possesion at one time, someone deer hunting with a 7.62 would be very unlikely to have any need to for possessing that amount of ammunition at any given time.

These restrictions contribute to the lower rate of firearm related fatalities per firearm in the UK compared to the US
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:38 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Do these polls exist in the UK or in NZ? Would a person owning a gun for defense (regardless of the "official reason") admit to it to a stranger who claimed to be conducting a poll?


Are you certain that defense is that pressing of a concern to those gun owners? Perhaps it is just a trivial matter to them that is less important than location and locks on the door?

As for myself, self defense is a minor concern, but that's why I bought my 1st pistol as there back in 1988 as there was a shooting right outside my apartment complex. Even though I now keep a shotgun configured for that kind of situation now, it really isn't much of a concern for me and is not the reason I own the rest of my collection. Those target rifles and the 50 BMG rifle are not going to help me much during a home invasion nor are they something I'm likely to carry while out on the town.
That sounds contradictory to me. It's a minor concern but you keep a gun ready to be used just for that? That doesn't sound like a minor concern to me.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:57 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
How many times do you need to assert this? It is quite obvious you will not let this go. I don't appreciate the constant nose thumbing and I suspect there are others who don't appreciate the same. Your continued commentary is not helpful at all. You need to let it go and fine another past time.
This thread is about the reasons why the USA will never be able to get its guns under control. If you provide one of those reasons, expect that to be pointed out.

Your innate attachment to guns, whether you need them or not is one of the reasons.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:01 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That sounds contradictory to me. It's a minor concern but you keep a gun ready to be used just for that? That doesn't sound like a minor concern to me.
Especially when, in other debates those with guns have admitted they do not have one or more of the following in their house;

- fire extinguisher
- smoke/CO alarm
- defibrillator
- first aid kit
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:33 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That sounds contradictory to me. It's a minor concern but you keep a gun ready to be used just for that? That doesn't sound like a minor concern to me.
I don't see a contradiction. It's a minor concern -in that the likelihood is that nothing will ever happen- but it never hurts to be ready just in case.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:37 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Been mentioned before, but here in NZ if your reason for getting a gun licence is self defence it automatically disqualifies you from getting one.
That possibility, that the government can have enough power to tell it's people that they can't own a gun because reasons, is why the US loves its Constitution. What you describe is a situation that most Americans would find intolerable.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:40 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If you compare the safety of 1000 people walking around in public with zero guns, and the safety of the same people walking around with 1 gun, it is incontrovertible that the second group is less safe.

I do not think that word means what you think it does...
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:40 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Especially when, in other debates those with guns have admitted they do not have one or more of the following in their house;

- fire extinguisher
- smoke/CO alarm
- defibrillator
- first aid kit
Is your argument that, "people with guns for protection must not care about protection all that much if they don't even have a defibrillator/etc in the house?" If so, that argument is extremely weak.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:54 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
.........What you describe is a situation that most Americans would find intolerable.
Which is why you are in a situation the rest of the world would find intolerable.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:01 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Is your argument that, "people with guns for protection must not care about protection all that much if they don't even have a defibrillator/etc in the house?" If so, that argument is extremely weak.
No, my argument is that it is evidence, of an attachment to firearms which has and will continue to prevent proper gun control from ever succeeding in the USA.

That people feel the need for a gun for defence even when the risk of attack is minimal is consequential because it causes lots more guns to be in people's houses than otherwise. Then those people are more likely to reach for the gun, even if it is not required, because give a man a hammer and everything become a nail. That results in instances like this;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...hihiro_Hattori

the death of a Japanese youth who went to the wrong house for a party and was shot dead. That kind of instance just does not happen anywhere else in the western world. Ever.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:29 AM   #351
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
OK, so you're missing some background.

In the UK (exc. Northern Ireland) to apply for a firearms or shotgun certificate to legally own a gun, you have to have a valid reason for owning it.

This could be that you are a member of a shooting club, or have land to hunt on, or have a land owner's permission to hunt on their land.

"Self defence" or "I like gunz" are not considered valid reasons.

Further, the type of gun(s) you own and the quanitity of ammunition have to be commensurate with the given reason.

Someone doing small bore target shooting could quite reasonably have 500 rounds in their possesion at one time, someone deer hunting with a 7.62 would be very unlikely to have any need to for possessing that amount of ammunition at any given time.

These restrictions contribute to the lower rate of firearm related fatalities per firearm in the UK compared to the US
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Especially when, in other debates those with guns have admitted they do not have one or more of the following in their house;

- fire extinguisher
- smoke/CO alarm
- defibrillator
- first aid kit
A former colleague's family members did legally keep pistols for self defence (I'm not sure if they still have them).

They were in Northern Ireland and considered terrorist targets.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:43 AM   #352
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
OK, so you're missing some background....
I'm familiar with that stuff. Are you suggesting that a person who owns a gun for the "right" reason will not also desire one for self defense?

It seems to be like some claims I've read in the past that there are no gays in the US military (pre-1994) because anytime they come out or are caught, they're discharged.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:49 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That sounds contradictory to me. It's a minor concern but you keep a gun ready to be used just for that? That doesn't sound like a minor concern to me.
Not contradictory and here's why. While you might think (I'm guessing) owning a gun for any reason is some huge deal, it is not for me. I grew up with guns in the house, they're just things/tools to me.

Keeping a gun in the house ready to use is not something that concerns me that much. When I leave the state for work/vacation, the gun is more secured. At times upon arriving back home it might be weeks before I drag it out of the hidden safe and stage it for use. Where I live I've little reason to be concerned about personal security. But I feel that a ready to use shotgun is acceptable to have in the house.
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Old 14th November 2017, 11:49 AM   #354
Nessie
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
A former colleague's family members did legally keep pistols for self defence (I'm not sure if they still have them).

They were in Northern Ireland and considered terrorist targets.
I do try and differentiate between NI and the rest of the UK. I have an in-law whose uncle has a gun for self defence, as he was in counter terrorism in the RUC. He also had bullet proof glass in his house.
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:51 PM   #355
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The thing is (at least in NZ) the chances of someone breaking into your home with the intent to actually do you harm, as opposed to opportunistic thieving, is relatively miniscule., and then the chances of them having a decent weapon if any is even minisculer (think I may have made up this word)

If you genuinely needed a gun for protection the only remotely plausible reason this would be true is if you have some sort of connection to organised crime or a history of violence.

If you have such a connection or any history of violence then this also disqualifies you from getting a licence. So tough luck, double whammy

If it is genuinely that bad go to the cops

People can obviously lie, but then there is the other thing

You have to have two character references. One has to be from your next of kin and one has to be from some one that is not related to you

I know what you are thinking. They could also lie

This is true. But then you get a visit from the cops to find out where you are going to store it, so they are also checking out your environment.

This isn't going to stop anyone really really intent on getting one, because anyone can get anything with enough cash

But it must be pretty good as we don't have multi mass shootings or eye watering homicides by gun

The main point of me writing that is that NO ONE CARES

NO ONE screams that their rights are restricted. Every one is fine with it.

NO ONE thinks we are living in a nanny state

Most countries find the US's need for guns crazy

This could never happen in the US obviously, because it is too late

Apologies for the rambling
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Old 14th November 2017, 12:52 PM   #356
MikeG
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
......Are you suggesting that a person who owns a gun for the "right" reason will not also desire one for self defense?......
Pretty much. People around here who have shotguns for vermin control know that if they were to even have the gun in their hand in the event of, say, a burglary, or the more usual pilfering of stuff from around the farmyard, that they'd lose their license, and likely end up in court. As a self-defense item they are therefore all but useless.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:10 PM   #357
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Just now: At least 5 dead in apparent random shootings near California elementary school

Quote:
Police said the shooter appeared to randomly pick his targets. The shooter had a semi-automatic rifle and two handguns, police said. Two officers engaged the shooter, who was pronounced dead at the scene.
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Old 14th November 2017, 01:24 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Which would be massive news in the UK and forever in people's memory, but it is local news in the USA that will be quickly forgotten.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:25 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Which would be massive news in the UK and forever in people's memory, but it is local news in the USA that will be quickly forgotten.
This stuff has had an affect on me, especially over the past few years. I was never a gun enthusiast but I bought a shotgun about 4 years ago, and I did buy it for self defense and only that.

But now I think the smartest thing for me to do in a home invasion is to go out the back door and run. Note that I live alone, no kids or anyone else to defend. I mean do I want to live or be a bad-ass? Run = live.

I also would not want to have to live with the fact that I killed someone. I'm pretty sure it would haunt me even if I were totally justified.

On the other hand, if certain items of mine were stolen it could literally ruin my life and livelihood, and that in my opinion is worth lethal defense. Sorry buddy, you made the choice to try and destroy my life. I work damn hard and nobody is going to just take that from me.

To clarify - I believe that I am defending my life if someone steals my livelihood from me, the thing that puts food in my mouth and a roof over me. Hell, anything that is important to me. If someone tries to take that I will kill them if I have to and I think it should be (if it is not already here) within my right to do so. I am totally fine with lethal defense if someone breaks into a home. I have no tolerance for stealing.

But I don't live in fear of that happening.

I have family members who are mild gun enthusiasts. When I listen to them they sound completely stupid. Not about gun laws, but guns in general. And it isn't that they don't know a lot about guns, it's that the whole conversation is just - sad maybe? It is weird, but when you grow up with it it's hard to think differently about it.

Then again - I live at the end of a dark street and a car was stolen from in front of my house a few months ago. It's a nice neighborhood but someone came into our nice neighborhood to steal something. I've been way more alert since then.

I've been talking to my cousin about buying my gun but he hasn't yet. Now I'm not sure if I want to sell it.

Sorry now I'm rambling. My point is, that I'd be happy with zero guns. How can that happen at this point? I've been against most gun laws proposed because they are stupid, and that was before I actually owned one.

Tired of guns. Tired of watching a great movie only to have it result in a shootout at the end. But I'm tired of the violence here. My friend, a 110 pound woman, was jumped by a gang of six men and women and beat unconscious recently. They stole her phone and purse. The cops caught one but let her go. They f'n let her go.

These people are sick and even the cops won't do anything. So? Who goes first? We're deep in it over here.

Last edited by mgidm86; 14th November 2017 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 14th November 2017, 02:42 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
There is an enormous amount of misconception by most who are posting on this thread about why people own gun. It is a freaking tradition and most folks have gun for hunting and other sports activities. There is not the fear that is constantly harped upon here. I live in a safe neighborhood with no crime for many years, yet I do keep a shotgun in my bedroom in a safe condition. All of my other valuables are in a safe.
Where I live angling is a tradition, but I don't keep my fishing tackle in the bedroom.

The fact that you keep a shotgun in the bedroom gives the stark, unequivocal message that you do live in fear of something, despite the safe nature of your neighbourhood.
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