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Old 10th November 2017, 11:27 AM   #1
Bob001
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Why conservatives reject reality....

An exploration of why current self-proclaimed "conservatives" (a far cry from William F. Buckley, Barry Goldwater etc.) reject basic facts.
Quote:
Although Freud is out of favor with many contemporary psychologists, modern cognitive psychology suggests that he was on the right track. The tenacity of many of the right’s beliefs in the face of evidence, rational arguments, and common sense suggest that these beliefs are not merely alternate interpretations of facts but are instead illusions rooted in unconscious wishes.
http://www.slate.com/articles/health...g_in_lies.html
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Old 10th November 2017, 11:46 AM   #2
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Probably for the same reasons that liberals, socialists, catholics or Indian Chiefs
reject reality.

Today, everybody is right.

As far as common sense goes, it's a subjective interpretation on the part of the individual.

I've been taken to task many times for riding motorcycles. To some people, riding a motorcycle does not make any sense as it's dangerous and most people have a low tolerance for exposure to risk.

For me, it was a healthy way to focus 100% of my attention on immediate multiple physical and mental tasks. After a day on the mountain or at the track almost all of my stress would be relieved. I could usually get a decent nights sleep.

Even in explaining this to someone who was close enough to me to warrant an explanation, there were people who just didn't get it.

To them, their "common sense" meant that I was reckless and didn't understand what I was doing.

To me, my common sense was I had a effective tool at hand to alleviate symptoms of PTSD.

It's a subjective pov, not a hard and fast rule.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:10 PM   #3
Bob001
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Probably for the same reasons that liberals, socialists, catholics or Indian Chiefs
reject reality.

Today, everybody is right.

As far as common sense goes, it's a subjective interpretation on the part of the individual.

I've been taken to task many times for riding motorcycles. To some people, riding a motorcycle does not make any sense as it's dangerous and most people have a low tolerance for exposure to risk.
.....
But following up on your example, you could have a completely rational conversation with your critics. You could say it's not as dangerous as they think. You could point out, for example, that a high percentage of motorcycle accidents involve new, relatively inexperienced, riders. You could point out how often alcohol and drug impairment is a factor. You could describe your training (if you've had any; the Motorcycle Safety Foundation has great courses) and your own safety practices. You could recount your great gas mileage and ease of parking, not to mention the just plain fun of it. Etc. They might still say they feel safer in a car, but you could both draw your own conclusions from the same set of facts.

But when "conservatives" reject the basic science of climate change, or claim evolution is only a theory (meaning in their minds just a guess), or when they promote tax policies on false principles, etc., etc., it's an actual rejection of reality.

Last edited by Bob001; 10th November 2017 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:30 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But following up on your example, you could have a completely rational conversation with your critics. You could say it's not as dangerous as they think. You could point out, for example, that a high percentage of motorcycle accidents involve new, relatively inexperienced, riders. You could point out how often alcohol and drug impairment is a factor. You could describe your training (if you've had any; the Motorcycle Safety Foundation has great courses) and your own safety practices. You could recount your great gas mileage and ease of parking, not to mention the just plain fun of it. Etc. They might still say they feel safer in a car, but you could both draw your own conclusions from the same set of facts.

But when "conservatives" reject the basic science of climate change, or claim evolution is only a theory (meaning in their minds just a guess), or when they promote tax policies on false principles, etc., etc., it's an actual rejection of reality.
Considering how many people realize the war on drugs has failed and the "lock 'em up!" approach doesn't solve any problems who simultaneously believe we're just one law away from solving America's criminal use/misuse of firearms problems, I'd say there's more than enough delusion going around in politics and society in general when you get right down to it.

Specifically regarding science and medicine, how many people that are conservative or liberal go off the rails on homeopathic or other snake oil schemes? I'm beginning to believe that along with the innate drive to alter consciousness through drinking/drugging, humans must have an innate drive to believe nonsense.
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:31 PM   #5
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Conservative =/= Republican.

I believe you're talking more about Republicans.
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:55 PM   #6
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While it no doubt crosses party lines and there are plenty of 'liberal' nutters, the GOP does seem to have climbed in bed with the science denial crowd.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:25 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
While it no doubt crosses party lines and there are plenty of 'liberal' nutters, the GOP does seem to have climbed in bed with the science denial crowd.
My crack pot hypothesis is that there are a couple of issues that really hit to the heart of some conservatives world view where the nonscience of the left is more on the fringe of their thought. Fundies are conservatives, fundies believe bible is literally true, therefore **** science. Global warming has weaseled its way into this for the pro-business right.

Alt-Med and GMOs just don't get to the core of the a liberals world view in the same way.
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Old 10th November 2017, 02:56 PM   #8
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From my POV: both sides done lost their damn minds. A politician with common sense is a politician who is NOT in office. It's incompatible with a successful election.
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Old 10th November 2017, 04:01 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
From my POV: both sides done lost their damn minds. A politician with common sense is a politician who is NOT in office. It's incompatible with a successful election.
That's the false equivalence thinking that got Trump to the White House. What Democratic positions compare to the Republican rejection of climate change and evolution, their dismantling of environmental protections, their provably wrong claims about the impact of their tax proposals, etc., etc.?
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:14 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's the false equivalence thinking that got Trump to the White House. What Democratic positions compare to the Republican rejection of climate change and evolution, their dismantling of environmental protections, their provably wrong claims about the impact of their tax proposals, etc., etc.?
Almost anything passed by the California Assembly and Senate over the last 20 years, and it's getting worse.

San Francisco city government? Worse even than that.

They don't call it "Californication" for no reason.
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:31 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
As far as common sense goes, it's a subjective interpretation on the part of the individual.

I've been taken to task many times for riding motorcycles. To some people, riding a motorcycle does not make any sense as it's dangerous and most people have a low tolerance for exposure to risk.

For me, it was a healthy way to focus 100% of my attention on immediate multiple physical and mental tasks. After a day on the mountain or at the track almost all of my stress would be relieved. I could usually get a decent nights sleep.

Even in explaining this to someone who was close enough to me to warrant an explanation, there were people who just didn't get it.

To them, their "common sense" meant that I was reckless and didn't understand what I was doing.

To me, my common sense was I had a effective tool at hand to alleviate symptoms of PTSD.

It's a subjective pov, not a hard and fast rule.
Driverless Motorcycles are going to become mandatory by 2051
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Old 10th November 2017, 07:33 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Almost anything passed by the California Assembly and Senate over the last 20 years, and it's getting worse.

San Francisco city government? Worse even than that.

They don't call it "Californication" for no reason.
Can you be more specific? What ruling or law in San Francisco compares to, say, de facto shutting down of Planned Parenthood? To the removal of photo id centers from poor neighborhoods and districts?

I'm serious... I don't follow this stuff closely enough to know anything other than my loose perception that "californication" is usually used to refer to over-reaching do-good legislation.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:04 PM   #13
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I thought the recent thing where we stopped testing convicted sex workers for HIV was a pretty lousy idea. I also think that background checks to buy ammo isn't too groovy. I wouldn't say either one is rejecting reality though. But both seem pretty loony to me.
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:11 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Can you be more specific? What ruling or law in San Francisco compares to, say, de facto shutting down of Planned Parenthood? To the removal of photo id centers from poor neighborhoods and districts?

I'm serious... I don't follow this stuff closely enough to know anything other than my loose perception that "californication" is usually used to refer to over-reaching do-good legislation.
I don't have the time needed for a detailed answer, but we can start with the absolute primacy of whatever group shouts the loudest that also claims oppressed status.

There's a reason why the People's Temple found a protected home in San Francisco before they went into the mass suicide business and Your Black Muslim Bakery was protected from close examination in Oakland until a journalist investigating them was murdered.

In case you're unaware of that group:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Your_Black_Muslim_Bakery

I'll get back this weekend with a detailed explanation.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:09 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Can you be more specific? What ruling or law in San Francisco compares to, say, de facto shutting down of Planned Parenthood? To the removal of photo id centers from poor neighborhoods and districts?

I'm serious... I don't follow this stuff closely enough to know anything other than my loose perception that "californication" is usually used to refer to over-reaching do-good legislation.
Sanctuary cities/state. High speed rail that nobody will ride even if it is actually completed. Our economic situation. Our homeless situation. Water management. Schools are among the country's worst. High entitlements. Southern CA gang problem. People who work here can't afford to live here. High cost of everything.

San Francisco is a disgusting city. It is filthy with human feces on the sidewalks and it is not isolated to one area.

Planned Parenthood is still open last I checked.

Hell yes the Republicans have some whacked out ideas, but who doesn't? Just depends on who you ask. One person's "I can't believe people think that way" is another persons "Because you're stupid"
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:31 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I don't have the time needed for a detailed answer, but we can start with the absolute primacy of whatever group shouts the loudest that also claims oppressed status.

There's a reason why the People's Temple found a protected home in San Francisco before they went into the mass suicide business and Your Black Muslim Bakery was protected from close examination in Oakland until a journalist investigating them was murdered.
.....
I dunno anything about the bakery, but there's a difference between a policy dispute and a rejection of facts. It's fine to debate, say, how much tax money should be spent reducing CO emissions, or how big a reduction industries should be required to pay for; it's ridiculous to claim that climate change is just a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. You obviously feel that the legislature is permitting or prohibiting something that you feel differently about. That's a policy dispute. If the legislature decided to repeal earthquake-resistant building codes on the grounds that there is no such thing as earthquakes, that would be a rejection of reality. Etc.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I thought the recent thing where we stopped testing convicted sex workers for HIV was a pretty lousy idea.
Honestly I can't think what good having that law would do unless you were going to tattoo it on their foreheads. It's more significant IMO that they reduced knowingly exposing someone to HIV from a felony to misdemeanor, but that's more in line with other diseases. Like Ebola.

That Slate article though - there is an undercurrent of smug running through it. It's an analysis/opinion piece more than straightforward reporting. Slate has every right to do that, of course, but I'm not sure it's helpful. It's very similar to an Atlantic article that was linked to in another thread. I'm more interested in seeing how this psychology can be applied to find some common ground.

When my bro says it's hot today, therefore no global warming - I say, well that's one data point. We talked a little about gun control yesterday and I agreed that when new laws are promoted after mass shootings, they often don't address the issues in that particular mass shooting. Some common ground. Not much, but I'd like to see the country less polarized, and for the most part I have some understanding of his point of view. He hasn't been rah-rah for Trump really but I fear my nephew (his son) is a different story.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:39 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Sanctuary cities/state. High speed rail that nobody will ride even if it is actually completed. Our economic situation. Our homeless situation. Water management. Schools are among the country's worst. High entitlements. Southern CA gang problem. People who work here can't afford to live here. High cost of everything.
.....
All of those are policy disputes about how resources should be allocated and how laws should be enforced. Fair enough. You can debate what to do with homeless people, say, with solutions ranging from giving them all houses to putting them on one-way buses to Texas. You can promote reducing the problems that made people homeless, or you can promote arresting everybody caught sleeping in an alley. But that's just not the same as rejecting scientific facts and the very idea of facts themselves.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:40 PM   #19
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Personally I find living in California pretty awesome. That's why I've fought hard to keep my county from joining the state of Jefferson.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:41 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Sanctuary cities/state. High speed rail that nobody will ride even if it is actually completed. Our economic situation. Our homeless situation. Water management. Schools are among the country's worst. High entitlements. Southern CA gang problem. People who work here can't afford to live here. High cost of everything.

San Francisco is a disgusting city. It is filthy with human feces on the sidewalks and it is not isolated to one area.

Planned Parenthood is still open last I checked.

Hell yes the Republicans have some whacked out ideas, but who doesn't? Just depends on who you ask. One person's "I can't believe people think that way" is another persons "Because you're stupid"
Evidence?

You really think people will not want a fast and convenient ride from one city to another?
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:55 PM   #21
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Begs the question.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:56 PM   #22
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Anyway, wake me up when someone figures out why progressives reject reality.
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Old 10th November 2017, 10:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Honestly I can't think what good having that law would do unless you were going to tattoo it on their foreheads.
Some sex workers honestly don't know their own status and may be spreading HIV without realizing it. They also won't seek treatment unless they know their status.
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Old 10th November 2017, 11:15 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I dunno anything about the bakery, but there's a difference between a policy dispute and a rejection of facts. It's fine to debate, say, how much tax money should be spent reducing CO emissions, or how big a reduction industries should be required to pay for; it's ridiculous to claim that climate change is just a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. You obviously feel that the legislature is permitting or prohibiting something that you feel differently about. That's a policy dispute. If the legislature decided to repeal earthquake-resistant building codes on the grounds that there is no such thing as earthquakes, that would be a rejection of reality. Etc.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
All of those are policy disputes about how resources should be allocated and how laws should be enforced. Fair enough. You can debate what to do with homeless people, say, with solutions ranging from giving them all houses to putting them on one-way buses to Texas. You can promote reducing the problems that made people homeless, or you can promote arresting everybody caught sleeping in an alley. But that's just not the same as rejecting scientific facts and the very idea of facts themselves.
This is probably the most important point to remember on this issue. It isn't just a policy difference no matter how the right currently is desperate for some false equivalency. There isn't one. The closest one can come is some of the nuclear beliefs advanced by the Dems.

The narrative that 'both sides are equally anti-science' is laughable.
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Old 10th November 2017, 11:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Some sex workers honestly don't know their own status and may be spreading HIV without realizing it. They also won't seek treatment unless they know their status.
Fair enough. That possibility occurred to me later.
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Old 11th November 2017, 07:52 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Begs the question.
What does?

Do you mean the thread title? In which case it doesn't beg the question so much, because it's not a circular argument. It does presume that conservatives reject reality, but since that is not the claim to be established nor roughly equivalent to it, there is no circularity.

It is closer to a complex question, though it was not written as a question. There's certainly an assumption that ought to be established here.

Anyway, always a pleasure to help you with basic notions of critical thinking and informal fallacies. Hope that helps and don't hesitate to call on my services again.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:03 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
What does?
Travis's allegations about high speed rail.

Quote:
Do you mean the thread title?
Nope.

Quote:
In which case
In which case you're answering a question nobody asked.

Quote:
Anyway, always a pleasure to help you with basic notions of critical thinking and informal fallacies. Hope that helps and don't hesitate to call on my services again.
LOL. Does it take a lot of effort to be this wrong?

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Old 11th November 2017, 08:27 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
While it no doubt crosses party lines and there are plenty of 'liberal' nutters, the GOP does seem to have climbed in bed with the science denial crowd.
GOP has to though - their money comes muchly from those making same from things that science has proven are bad for lifeforms like us (and them - they are just blindly suicidal).
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:30 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, wake me up when someone figures out why progressives reject reality.
You will, then, have to keep sleeping. For just the actual rejection of reality you seem to be "observing" in real people!
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, wake me up when someone figures out why progressives reject reality.
This is the point where you provide examples of progressives rejecting reality.

I'll not be holding my breath. You people seem to have a hard time backing up your statements.
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Old 11th November 2017, 08:51 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Travis's allegations about high speed rail.
I did indeed badly misinterpret your point. Now, perhaps speaking in complete sentences or, on a good day, paragraphs would have helped convey your meaning (as would quoting the post to which you are replying), but I do apologize for misinterpreting the message of your post.
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:05 PM   #32
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Will people who have a dysfunctional relationship with reality be able to handle the 21st century?

I guess they'll find out. They're sure as hell not going to give an inch to reality. Not voluntarily, I mean. Real reality will have to pry their alternate realities from their cold, dead fingers.
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Old 12th November 2017, 03:28 PM   #33
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+1 more for dumb idea or poor policy =/= rejection of basic science as a unifying party platform.
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Old 12th November 2017, 04:06 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Travis's allegations about high speed rail.


Nope.


In which case you're answering a question nobody asked.



LOL. Does it take a lot of effort to be this wrong?

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Old 12th November 2017, 04:57 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I dunno anything about the bakery, but there's a difference between a policy dispute and a rejection of facts. It's fine to debate, say, how much tax money should be spent reducing CO emissions, or how big a reduction industries should be required to pay for; it's ridiculous to claim that climate change is just a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. You obviously feel that the legislature is permitting or prohibiting something that you feel differently about. That's a policy dispute. If the legislature decided to repeal earthquake-resistant building codes on the grounds that there is no such thing as earthquakes, that would be a rejection of reality. Etc.
Go ahead and explain how tax money is going to reduce CO emissions. I also find it fascinating that liberal skeptics are so taken by the global warming hoax. It’s nothing but guessing, it’s been shown and proven their models are way off. As far as evolution, that is more guessing. Having just about zero transitional fossils when there should be billions is quite telling.

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Old 12th November 2017, 05:14 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
+1 more for dumb idea or poor policy =/= rejection of basic science as a unifying party platform.
Yes, it's very convenient for the conservatives on this forum to provide examples of the reality-denial referred to in the OP with their posts.
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Old 12th November 2017, 05:35 PM   #37
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The whole ideology of liberalism is based on emotion, an inconvenient fact.
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Old 12th November 2017, 06:18 PM   #38
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The proper place to discussing Global Warming is in this Science thread I link.

Because it is a reality according to science. And this particular conservative does not reject reality.
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Old 12th November 2017, 06:21 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
The proper place to discussing Global Warming is in this Science thread I link.

Because it is a reality according to science. And this particular conservative does not reject reality.
Agreed, but two of Bob001 concerns and proof that conservatives reject reality are global warming and evolution. So naturally those two would be involved in the discussion?

Oh and third on his list is tax policy based on false principles.

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Old 12th November 2017, 06:38 PM   #40
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The existence of global warming, anthropogenic in cause, is the scientific consensus.

Ditto on evolution.

Debating the science of these things is, well, science. Not politics.
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