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Tags Australia elections , Australia politics , Julie Bishop , Malcolm Turnbull , Tony Abbott

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Old 4th August 2016, 10:41 PM   #481
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That's one thing you have got right.
The way you are dancing around this, it is obvious that you are quite willing to have a conservative government that is able to pass its bills unchallenged as long as you can get rid of the Senate.

You are aware of what happened in 2004 when the coalition accidentally won a majority in the Senate. We got the most horrendous anti-worker legislation in Australia's history - ironically titled "Work Choices". Howard had never let it slip that he was even thinking of such an attack on workers. You might think that this is acceptable but I can assure you that most of us don't.

Ironically, the makeup of the Senate far more accurately represents the will of the voters than the House of Representatives with its single member electorates ever could. The simple fact is that voters are getting fed up with the major parties with fully a quarter of the voters giving a first preference for candidates who are not Labor or coalition. There is no good reason why these voters should not be represented in parliament.

It is actually the House of Representatives that is the "unrepresentative swill".
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Old 4th August 2016, 10:49 PM   #482
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
He is Queensland's second rep for one nation. They won 1.1941 of a quota (250,126 votes) and with preferences won 2 seats. I think that is far cry from around 70 votes.
The Queensland first preference results were:
coalition - 4.5851 quotas
Labor - 3.4253 quotas
One Nation - 1.1941 quotas
Greens - 0.8990 quotas
http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-e...esults/senate/

With the coalition, Labor and Greens each getting enough preferences to fill one more quota, the election of the last candidate was always going to come down to preferences. Once again, democracy triumphed.
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Old 4th August 2016, 10:49 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Of course I understand how the system works. You would expect more than 70 purely through chance. That a clown like this gets elected reflects a very broken system. Have you seen some of his rants? That the UN is controlling the world?
The guy is depriving a village of its idiot, that's for sure.
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Old 4th August 2016, 11:34 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The way you are dancing around this, it is obvious that you are quite willing to have a conservative government that is able to pass its bills unchallenged as long as you can get rid of the Senate.

You are aware of what happened in 2004 when the coalition accidentally won a majority in the Senate. We got the most horrendous anti-worker legislation in Australia's history - ironically titled "Work Choices". Howard had never let it slip that he was even thinking of such an attack on workers. You might think that this is acceptable but I can assure you that most of us don't.

Ironically, the makeup of the Senate far more accurately represents the will of the voters than the House of Representatives with its single member electorates ever could. The simple fact is that voters are getting fed up with the major parties with fully a quarter of the voters giving a first preference for candidates who are not Labor or coalition. There is no good reason why these voters should not be represented in parliament.

It is actually the House of Representatives that is the "unrepresentative swill".
I gather you dislike major parties. Fair enough. But I can't let this nonsense slip. What happened in the election after Work Choices? The people had their say.

Show me where a House of Reps member got up with 2% or less of the vote and you may have a point about it being unrepresentative. You can't and you don't.

We don't have proportional representation in the house that matters. We do in the Senate as an historical sop to the states. Now have a go at explaining how electors the NT and Tasmania have upper house votes worth far, far more than those in the States which have made this country great?
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Old 5th August 2016, 12:49 AM   #485
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
What happened in the election after Work Choices? The people had their say.
Part of that say was denying the ruling party Carte-Blanche in future elections. You are the only person (other than the erstwhile Alphie) who would have been happy to let Abbott run loose.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Show me where a House of Reps member got up with 2% or less of the vote and you may have a point about it being unrepresentative. You can't and you don't.
23.23% of voters voted against the big two in the HoR yet they only got 5 seats (3.33% of the seats). The Greens with 10.23% of the vote got only one seat. Tell me how that represents the will of the voters. You can't and you don't.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
We don't have proportional representation in the house that matters. We do in the Senate as an historical sop to the states.
What????

PR has got nothing to do with having a Senate. PR wasn't used in the Senate until 1948 when it replaced the "block vote" system that had been in use.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Now have a go at explaining how electors the NT and Tasmania have upper house votes worth far, far more than those in the States which have made this country great?
It is the best safeguard against a government that would otherwise pork barrel the two most populous states in Australia at the expense of all the others. You can be sure that the independents especially will stand up for the interests of their state when Turnbull is forced to negotiate with them.
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Old 5th August 2016, 12:57 AM   #486
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Failed at every attempted point. Your wilful misrepresentation of Australia's electoral system is telling.

The Coalition and Labour have led to stable government for decades. I haven't liked all of them. Big deal. The nation has survived just fine.
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Old 5th August 2016, 01:16 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Failed at every attempted point. Your wilful misrepresentation of Australia's electoral system is telling.
If any of my facts are incorrect then you are welcome to correct them.

You won't be able to of course. You are grasping at straws to try and justify your emotional hatred of the Senate.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The Coalition and Labour have led to stable government for decades. I haven't liked all of them. Big deal. The nation has survived just fine.
Fortunately, that is the opinion of just one voter.

BTW The nation has survived "just fine" with a Senate too.
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Old 5th August 2016, 02:27 AM   #488
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6 Year terms again

An examination of the Senate election results shows that under the Order method, the Greens will get 3 instead of 5 members elected for 6 years and Derryn Hinch (the man who threatened to go to court if the Senate doesn't adopt the Order method) will only get 3 years. The big two get 3 extra long termers.

Anybody want to take bets about which method the Senate will choose?
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Old 7th August 2016, 08:09 PM   #489
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One fewer One Nation senator?

It looks like Rod Culleton may lose his WA senate seat.
He was convicted in absence earlier this year and a warrant for his arrest was issued. When he turned up in a NSW court to attempt to get the conviction annulled, he was arrested.

So when you call Aussie politicians crooks, you can now know it is not just rhetoric!
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Old 7th August 2016, 08:22 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
It looks like Rod Culleton may lose his WA senate seat.
He was convicted in absence earlier this year and a warrant for his arrest was issued. When he turned up in a NSW court to attempt to get the conviction annulled, he was arrested.

So when you call Aussie politicians crooks, you can now know it is not just rhetoric!
I think One Nation gets to replace him.
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Old 7th August 2016, 10:29 PM   #491
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
It looks like Rod Culleton may lose his WA senate seat.
He was convicted in absence earlier this year and a warrant for his arrest was issued. When he turned up in a NSW court to attempt to get the conviction annulled, he was arrested.

So when you call Aussie politicians crooks, you can now know it is not just rhetoric!
His conviction in NSW has been annulled. So he is eligible to be a Senator unless or until his upcoming trial in Perth results in a conviction for stealing a hire car (in which case another One Nation candidate must be selected to replace him).
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-1...-trial/7642910
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Old 7th August 2016, 10:33 PM   #492
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
It looks like Rod Culleton may lose his WA senate seat.
He was convicted in absence earlier this year and a warrant for his arrest was issued. When he turned up in a NSW court to attempt to get the conviction annulled, he was arrested.

So when you call Aussie politicians crooks, you can now know it is not just rhetoric!
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I think One Nation gets to replace him.
As long as the crime in which he was convicted carries a sentence of 12 months, which I think it does. It does not matter that he only gets fined.

What would happen is that the WA governor gets told of the vacancy by the President of the Senate and the WA parliament asks One Nation to nominate another person. They then elect that person to be the new senator.

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliame...-01_part-02_20
Quote:
Whenever a vacancy happens in the Senate, the President, or if there is no President or if the President is absent from the Commonwealth the Governor-General, shall notify the same to the Governor of the State in the representation of which the vacancy has happened.
More on casual vacancies.
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliame...-01_part-02_15

Edit. However there are penalties for sitting while disqualified. The constitution says 100 pounds per day, but this may have been changed.
Ref: http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliame...-01_part-04_46
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Old 7th August 2016, 10:57 PM   #493
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Ah well.
We get what we deserve I guess.
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Old 7th August 2016, 11:58 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
This is section 15 as was amended in 1977. It mandated that a replacement Senator should come from the same party as the outgoing Senator and should serve out the rest of his term instead of until the next election.

It was designed to prevent a repeat of the Gair AffairWP in 1974 and prevent a state Premier from stealing a vote in the Senate by replacing a Senator with somebody from a different party as happened in 1975 and precipitated the constitutional crisis. Joh Bjelke-Petersen (Queensland's Premier at the time) was a key player in both cases.
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Old 8th August 2016, 01:39 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is section 15 as was amended in 1977. It mandated that a replacement Senator should come from the same party as the outgoing Senator and should serve out the rest of his term instead of until the next election.

It was designed to prevent a repeat of the Gair AffairWP in 1974 and prevent a state Premier from stealing a vote in the Senate by replacing a Senator with somebody from a different party as happened in 1975 and precipitated the constitutional crisis. Joh Bjelke-Petersen (Queensland's Premier at the time) was a key player in both cases.
Yes. This means that Mr. Fraser PM took advantage of the loophole in the constitution, then fixed it so that it could not be used again (like against him).

Edit. Just to point out the technical error in my post. Mr. Fraser was not actually PM when he took advantage of the loophole.
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Old 8th August 2016, 02:41 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post

It was designed to prevent a repeat of the Gair Affair.
Not quite, the issue with Gair was that JBP delayed issuing writs.

The real issue was in 1975 when following the death of ALP Senator Bertie Millner ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertie_Milliner) JBP replaced him with Field not the ALP nominee. This in turn enabled the crisis of 1975 and fittingly earned Malcom Fraser the title of the PM who rode to power on the back of a dead mans grave.

Edit to add that iirc the NSW premier did a similar thing earlier, but that his nominee took the view that he would not vote against the Govt because he was replacing a Govt Senator.

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Old 8th August 2016, 03:40 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by Syameese View Post
Not quite, the issue with Gair was that JBP delayed issuing writs.
That was part of the story.

The issue was that Gough Whitlam attempted to destroy the DLP (Democratic Labor Party) and gain an extra seat in the Senate by offering Vincent Gair (the leader of the DLP) an ambassadorship to Ireland.

As the constitution stood at that time, Gair's replacement would have to face the polls at the next election meaning that Queensland would have had 6 Senators up for election. The sixth seat would certainly have gone to Labor. However, JBP managed to delay issuing the writs so that only the 5 Senate seats had to go to the polls and Labor missed out.

So Gough was only partly successful. He managed to wreck the DLP but in the process, he damaged the reputation of himself and his government.
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:41 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
So when you call Aussie politicians crooks, you can now know it is not just rhetoric!
Interesting that one politician being charged with a crime suddenly means that "all politicians are corrupt".

It's exactly the same mentality that says that all Christians are as despicable as Westboro, and that all Muslims are terrorists. Also, Oscar Pistorius shot someone, so that obviously means that you can call paralympians murderers.
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Old 8th August 2016, 04:01 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Interesting that one politician being charged with a crime suddenly means that "all politicians are corrupt".

It's exactly the same mentality that says that all Christians are as despicable as Westboro, and that all Muslims are terrorists. Also, Oscar Pistorius shot someone, so that obviously means that you can call paralympians murderers.
As someone eligible for the Paralympics, I can confirm we're all criminals of the worst sort. Personally I eat babies for lunch most days.
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Old 8th August 2016, 04:05 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That was part of the story.
That was the whole story in constitutional terms. Whether Gough misjudged politically is another issue - in the result of the Gair affair he clearly did, but was it reasonable that he did not foresee what that corrupt pos BJP would do I wouldn't judge him too harshly.

My point remains correct though, the constitutional amendment was more as a result of the Field than the Gair issue. Given that Gair was not replaced by an appointed person not of his party's selection surely you would agree?
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Old 8th August 2016, 07:49 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Syameese View Post
That was the whole story in constitutional terms. Whether Gough misjudged politically is another issue - in the result of the Gair affair he clearly did, but was it reasonable that he did not foresee what that corrupt pos BJP would do I wouldn't judge him too harshly.

My point remains correct though, the constitutional amendment was more as a result of the Field than the Gair issue. Given that Gair was not replaced by an appointed person not of his party's selection surely you would agree?
You are forgetting that there are two aspects to that 1977 constitutional change. And it is not just a dry constitutional issue - it's about the dirty politics that PMs are willing to play to overcome the will of the voters.

The change that mandated that a new Senator serve out the balance of the previous Senator's term was designed to prevent politicians manipulating the number of Senators who face re-election and hence gain an unwarranted member. It is true that Joh thwarted Gough's plans (and the 1974 double dissolution election rendered it all moot anyway) but as long as the constitution remained the way it was, it was always possible for a future PM to pull the same stunt.
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Old 8th August 2016, 03:08 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Interesting that one politician being charged with a crime suddenly means that "all politicians are corrupt".
Interesting that lack of smileys in a post means that it should be taken at face value (Some people appear to be incapable of comprehending nuance) and the view extrapolated to enable construction of strawmen.

For ***** and giggles.
Convicted Australian Politicians
Wiki's list seems more comprehensive.
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Old 8th August 2016, 04:31 PM   #503
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Mmm, yes. I count 37 on that list, in over 100 years of Australian political history. Oh, that is a lot of politicians. Totally a representative sample.

Rhetoric is one thing - false generalisation is another.
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Old 8th August 2016, 07:10 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Mmm, yes. I count 37 on that list, in over 100 years of Australian political history. Oh, that is a lot of politicians. Totally a representative sample.

Rhetoric is one thing - false generalisation is another.
You are deliberately pretending that you've never heard the phrase "***** and giggles" to perpetuate your strawman?

Did you read the posts I linked to in my previous reply?
Do you see what you are doing, or does a lack of understanding of nuance only something other people do?
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Old 8th August 2016, 11:14 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That was part of the story.

The issue was that Gough Whitlam attempted to destroy the DLP (Democratic Labor Party) and gain an extra seat in the Senate by offering Vincent Gair (the leader of the DLP) an ambassadorship to Ireland.

As the constitution stood at that time, Gair's replacement would have to face the polls at the next election meaning that Queensland would have had 6 Senators up for election. The sixth seat would certainly have gone to Labor. However, JBP managed to delay issuing the writs so that only the 5 Senate seats had to go to the polls and Labor missed out.

So Gough was only partly successful. He managed to wreck the DLP but in the process, he damaged the reputation of himself and his government.
100% wrong. Joh had writs issued for all Senate seats up for reelection. It's just that he got in before Gough got the resignation of his new Grand Vizier for Ireland.
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Old 9th August 2016, 12:28 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
100% wrong. Joh had writs issued for all Senate seats up for reelection. It's just that he got in before Gough got the resignation of his new Grand Vizier for Ireland.
You are right. My bad. In what was dubbed "The night of the long prawns"WP Senator Ron Maunsell kept Gair away from the Queensland governor by plying him with whiskey and prawns until after Joh had advised the Governor to issue the writs for the half-Senate election.

BTW It would be more accurate to say that the highlighted sentence was wrong rather than imply that the entire post was "100% wrong".
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Old 9th August 2016, 12:42 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are right. My bad. In what was dubbed "The night of the long prawns"WP Senator Ron Maunsell kept Gair away from the Queensland governor by plying him with whiskey and prawns until after Joh had advised the Governor to issue the writs for the half-Senate election.

BTW It would be more accurate to say that the highlighted sentence was wrong rather than imply that the entire post was "100% wrong".
That was my intent. The rest of the post was just included for context
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Old 9th August 2016, 01:31 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
That was my intent. The rest of the post was just included for context
a thanks from me as well - I had forgotten the timing glitch.
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Old 9th August 2016, 03:19 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
You are deliberately pretending that you've never heard the phrase "***** and giggles" to perpetuate your strawman?
Just making a point. It's often said in jest that politicians are crooks, while in fact almost all of them aren't, and it does a disservice to these dedicated public servants to label them as such.

Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Did you read the posts I linked to in my previous reply?
Do you see what you are doing, or does a lack of understanding of nuance only something other people do?
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Old 9th August 2016, 04:09 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just making a point.
Belabouring a point more like.
If you were merely making a point this snide comment wouldn't have been necessary.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Mmm, yes. I count 37 on that list, in over 100 years of Australian political history. Oh, that is a lot of politicians. Totally a representative sample.

Rhetoric is one thing - false generalisation is another.
Quote:
It's often said in jest that politicians are crooks, while in fact almost all of them aren't, and it does a disservice to these dedicated public servants to label them as such.

You acknowledge it was said in jest but you still can't let it go?
indeed.
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Old 9th August 2016, 04:26 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Belabouring a point more like.
You acknowledge it was said in jest but you still can't let it go?
It seems that I'm the one not letting it go.

I pointed out that it was a jest in order to make the point that it was a bad jest. You seem determined to find any possible fault in what I say, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. Let it go.
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Old 10th August 2016, 02:20 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
We got the most horrendous anti-worker legislation in Australia's history - ironically titled "Work Choices". Howard had never let it slip that he was even thinking of such an attack on workers.
I agree with your point that Howard didnt take Work Choices to an election, but surely the Stevedores skullduggery tipped you (us) off? Who didn't know Howard had a hard-on for IR reform?
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Old 10th August 2016, 02:28 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Now have a go at explaining how electors the NT and Tasmania have upper house votes worth far, far more than those in the States which have made this country great?
Uh, don't NT only have 2 senators?
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Old 10th August 2016, 06:28 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Sceptic-PK View Post
Uh, don't NT only have 2 senators?
It matters even less than that. Like the ACT, both senators have to get re-elected at every senate election so there will always be 1 Labor and 1 coalition senator in each territory.

Therefore, in any division, they cancel each other out and have no influence on the outcome of the division.
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Old 11th August 2016, 10:46 PM   #515
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Senate terms have been announced:

Three year terms go to:

Quote:
NSW:

Concetta Fierravanti-Wells (Lib)

Doug Cameron (Labor)

Lee Rhiannon (Greens)

John Williams (Nat)

Brian Burston (One Nation)

David Leyonhjelm (Liberal Democrats)

Victoria:

Jacinta Collins (Labor)

James Paterson (Lib)

Gavin Marshall (Labor)

Derryn Hinch (Derryn Hinch’s Justice Party)

Janet Rice (Greens)

Jane Hume (Lib)

Queensland:

Claire Moore (Labor)

Ian Macdonald (Liberal National Party)

Larissa Waters (Greens)

Barry O’Sullivan (Liberal National Party)

Chris Ketter (Labor)

Malcolm Roberts (One Nation)

South Australia:

Anne Ruston (Lib)

Alex Gallacher (Labor)

David Fawcett (Lib)

Skye Kakoschke-Moore (Nick Xenophon Team)

Sarah Hanson-Young (Greens)

Bob Day (Family First)

Western Australia:

Pat Dodson (Labor)

Linda Reynolds (Lib)

Chris Back (Lib)

Louise Pratt (Labor)

Rodney Culleton (One Nation)

Rachel Siewert (Greens)

Tasmania:

Jonathon Duniam (Lib)

Carol Brown (Labor)

David Bushby (Lib)

Lisa Singh (Labor)

Catryna Bilyk (Labor)

Nick McKim (Greens)

Territories:

Senators in the Australian Capital Territory and Northern Territory always face re-election every three years.
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Old 11th August 2016, 11:08 PM   #516
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Oh goody, derryn will be so pleased. A pity the ultra-racist and her mates aren't all there.
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Old 11th August 2016, 11:26 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Oh goody, derryn will be so pleased. A pity the ultra-racist and her mates aren't all there.
Pauline Hanson has got a term of 6 years, but her mates all got only 3.
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Old 11th August 2016, 11:55 PM   #518
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Anybody want to take bets about which method the Senate will choose?
And the winner is - The order elected method! (Obviously).

Regardless of the rhetoric that may be sprouted, the big two simply chose the method which gave more of them 6 year terms. It's no surprise that nobody took me up on that bet.

It still leaves 7 Senators from minor parties with 6 year terms: Greens (3), Xenophon team (2), Pauline Hanson and Jackie Lambie.

13 Senators from the minor parties will go to the polls in 3 years: Greens (6), Xenophon team (1), One Nation (3), Lib Dem (1), Hinch (1) and Family First (1).

We can expect the minor parties to lose 4 Senators after the next election.
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Old 12th August 2016, 01:28 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
<snip>

Depending on how the vote is counted, we can expect some independents to be elected for 6 years but the majority of the independents will probably go for re-election in 3 years time.

Some pundits have suggested that this is Turnbull's hope - that after the next poll, a lot of independents will lose their seat because of the higher quota leading to a possible majority by one of the big two. If so, this may prove to be another Turnbull miscalculation.
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Maybe that is a small part of the PMs thinking. Ensure most of the minor parties are only elected for 3 years, then the next parliament does not have many minor party members. Though if I am right he is a better man than what I can give him credit for.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
<snip>

Regardless of the rhetoric that may be sprouted, the big two simply chose the method which gave more of them 6 year terms. It's no surprise that nobody took me up on that bet.

It still leaves 7 Senators from minor parties with 6 year terms: Greens (3), Xenophon team (2), Pauline Hanson and Jackie Lambie.

13 Senators from the minor parties will go to the polls in 3 years: Greens (6), Xenophon team (1), One Nation (3), Lib Dem (1), Hinch (1) and Family First (1).

We can expect the minor parties to lose 4 Senators after the next election.
Looks like we were right. psionl0 said it first, then I said it in stronger terms. There were 20 minor party senators elected, 13 of whom will be up for reelection. If 10 get re elected that is a reduction of 3 from this parliament.

In the old parliament there were 18 minor party senators. So now we have a senate with 2 more minor party senators. Turnbull stuffed up. Even if my previous paragraph is right then there will be only 1 less minor party senator in the parliament after this one. And the margin of error is far bigger than that.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-e...esults/senate/

Lesson: Having a DD does not work for just about anything.
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Old 12th August 2016, 02:22 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Lesson: Having a DD an early election does not work for just about anything.
ftfy.

History tells us so. Unfortunately, there will always be a PM who has the ego and the chutzpah to think that he can buck history.
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