IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

Reply
Old Yesterday, 02:18 PM   #1521
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
it's fear of the Trump base.
I think, long term, an acquittal might be the death warrent of the GOP.
Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 02:39 PM   #1522
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
 
Fast Eddie B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
Posts: 6,629
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again.
The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.
Fast Eddie B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:08 PM   #1523
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.
Agreed, but only to a certain point. McConnell has power among the GOP senators but not total control. There are a few like Cruz and Hawley who will not vote to convict no matter what McConnell says.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM   #1524
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 24,609
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It takes time too prepare a criminal case, and there is so much to invesrigate.
You can't have everything yesterday...
They've already had four years. I assumed the criminal charges are for actions he performed before he became President.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM   #1525
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 49,965
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
We also have the claims of several lawyers representing rioters from Jan. 6 that their clients believed they were just following Trump's instructions. There are also the statements of the rioters themselves:




Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has been charged with illegally entering the Capitol:
Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:06 PM   #1526
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,994
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.
I said it in the impeachment thread: McConnell blamed Trump (and others) for the insurrection in a speech on the House floor. This is possibly an indication that he would vote to convict. And he wouldn't vote to convict unless he knew that he had enough support in the Republican party for there to be a conviction.

It's worth noting that there have been stories for a little while that he's been canvassing the opinion of other Senators on whether they'd vote to convict, and that he's seen the insurrection as an opportunity to rid the GOP of Trump and salt the ground afterwards.

No conclusions should be drawn, obviously, but there is reason to believe that Trump will be convicted, and that McConnell will be part of that.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:27 PM   #1527
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,880
if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now?

Itís not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at itís peak it wasnít enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house.

Itís also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him heíll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldnít even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try?

Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesnít appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate.

There wonít be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM   #1528
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 27,957
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.
I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:53 PM   #1529
DevilsAdvocate
Philosopher
 
DevilsAdvocate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,300
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now?

Itís not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at itís peak it wasnít enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house.

Itís also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him heíll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldnít even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try?

Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesnít appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate.

There wonít be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.
I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party.

He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency.

He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side.

The information that he is planning to start his own party is also a large concern. Some Republican Senators may feel that he should be convicted based on his actions, and possibly even in the interest of the party, but are concerned about the fall out with his supporters in their state. If he is going to take his supporters and oppose Republicans, then that is no longer a concern. The best way to stop the creation of that party, or at least limit its influence, is to bar him from holding public office. He would not be able to campaign or raise donations under campaign finance laws.

There are some considerable political benefits for Republican Senators to convict.
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley
DevilsAdvocate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 05:54 PM   #1530
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 30,644
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.
You beat me to it!
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:07 PM   #1531
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.
I agree. This is the time for them to say to Republicans "You were lied to. The courts looked at the evidence: there was none. The states, including our Republican governors and Republican majority legislatures looked at the evidence: there was none. The FBI looked at the evidence: there was none. The Dept. of Justice looked at the evidence: there was none.

But it's not going to happen because of reps and senators like Cruz, Hawley, Boebert, T-Greene, Harris, Brook, etc. There are just too many true believers and too many scum who want to inherit the mantle like Cruz.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 06:18 PM   #1532
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,452
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.
Jenna, who was busy doing commercials for her real estate business while trying to overturn democracy by storming the Capitol.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:18 PM   #1533
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party.

He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency.

He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side.
There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention.

Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:16 PM   #1534
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 27,957
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Thereís considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention.

Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?
Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:35 PM   #1535
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.
Yes, and Graham can do whatever he wants for a while, but the point is that wasn’t an easy win for him in a safe red state. He had to work for it. a guy like Rubio or Johnson doesn’t have that luxury. They’ll have to explain a vote to acquit on a national stage, fight off the full force of the Dems fundraising, and hope that Trump will not only endorse them but that his base holds strong and shows up for them on a ticket he’s not even on.

And those are the incumbents.

That’s not an ideal situation for a lot of senators.

Last edited by dirtywick; Yesterday at 08:40 PM.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:48 PM   #1536
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 85,854
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.
Yeah it sucks that McConnell and Graham have 6 years in the election-clear now.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:45 AM   #1537
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 17,452
I'm hoping the Georgia GOP senatorial losses will be a warning to some of these senators that just running on being a Trump supporter ain't gonna hack it no mo'.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:04 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.