[Continuation] Trump’s Coup - Part 2 - Page 39

Stacyhs · Yesterday, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

it's fear of the Trump base.
I think, long term, an acquittal might be the death warrent of the GOP.

Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.

Fast Eddie B · Yesterday, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again.

The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

Stacyhs · Yesterday, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

Agreed, but only to a certain point. McConnell has power among the GOP senators but not total control. There are a few like Cruz and Hawley who will not vote to convict no matter what McConnell says.

alfaniner · Yesterday, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

It takes time too prepare a criminal case, and there is so much to invesrigate.
You can't have everything yesterday...

They've already had four years. I assumed the criminal charges are for actions he performed before he became President.

dudalb · Yesterday, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

We also have the claims of several lawyers representing rioters from Jan. 6 that their clients believed they were just following Trump's instructions. There are also the statements of the rioters themselves:

Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has been charged with illegally entering the Capitol:

Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.

Squeegee Beckenheim · Yesterday, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators.

Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

I said it in the impeachment thread: McConnell blamed Trump (and others) for the insurrection in a speech on the House floor. This is possibly an indication that he would vote to convict. And he wouldn't vote to convict unless he knew that he had enough support in the Republican party for there to be a conviction.

It's worth noting that there have been stories for a little while that he's been canvassing the opinion of other Senators on whether they'd vote to convict, and that he's seen the insurrection as an opportunity to rid the GOP of Trump and salt the ground afterwards.

No conclusions should be drawn, obviously, but there is reason to believe that Trump will be convicted, and that McConnell will be part of that.

dirtywick · Yesterday, 05:27 PM

if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now?

It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house.

It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try?

Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate.

There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.

acbytesla · Yesterday, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.

I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.

DevilsAdvocate · Yesterday, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now?

It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house.

It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try?

Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate.

There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.

I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party.

He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency.

He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side.

The information that he is planning to start his own party is also a large concern. Some Republican Senators may feel that he should be convicted based on his actions, and possibly even in the interest of the party, but are concerned about the fall out with his supporters in their state. If he is going to take his supporters and oppose Republicans, then that is no longer a concern. The best way to stop the creation of that party, or at least limit its influence, is to bar him from holding public office. He would not be able to campaign or raise donations under campaign finance laws.

There are some considerable political benefits for Republican Senators to convict.

Trebuchet · Yesterday, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.

You beat me to it!

Stacyhs · Yesterday, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.

I agree. This is the time for them to say to Republicans "You were lied to. The courts looked at the evidence: there was none. The states, including our Republican governors and Republican majority legislatures looked at the evidence: there was none. The FBI looked at the evidence: there was none. The Dept. of Justice looked at the evidence: there was none.

But it's not going to happen because of reps and senators like Cruz, Hawley, Boebert, T-Greene, Harris, Brook, etc. There are just too many true believers and too many scum who want to inherit the mantle like Cruz.

Stacyhs · Yesterday, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.

Jenna, who was busy doing commercials for her real estate business while trying to overturn democracy by storming the Capitol.

dirtywick · Yesterday, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate

I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party.

He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency.

He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side.

There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention.

Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?

acbytesla · Yesterday, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by dirtywick

There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention.

Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?

Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

dirtywick · Yesterday, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

Yes, and Graham can do whatever he wants for a while, but the point is that wasn’t an easy win for him in a safe red state. He had to work for it. a guy like Rubio or Johnson doesn’t have that luxury. They’ll have to explain a vote to acquit on a national stage, fight off the full force of the Dems fundraising, and hope that Trump will not only endorse them but that his base holds strong and shows up for them on a ticket he’s not even on.

And those are the incumbents.

That’s not an ideal situation for a lot of senators.

Skeptic Ginger · Yesterday, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.

Yeah it sucks that McConnell and Graham have 6 years in the election-clear now.

Stacyhs · Today, 12:45 AM

I'm hoping the Georgia GOP senatorial losses will be a warning to some of these senators that just running on being a Trump supporter ain't gonna hack it no mo'.

Yesterday, 04:26 PM	#1524
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 24,609	Originally Posted by dudalb It takes time too prepare a criminal case, and there is so much to invesrigate. You can't have everything yesterday... They've already had four years. I assumed the criminal charges are for actions he performed before he became President.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

Yesterday, 04:49 PM	#1525
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,965	Originally Posted by Stacyhs We also have the claims of several lawyers representing rioters from Jan. 6 that their clients believed they were just following Trump's instructions. There are also the statements of the rioters themselves: Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has been charged with illegally entering the Capitol: Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

Yesterday, 05:06 PM	#1526
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 30,994	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators. Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope. I said it in the impeachment thread: McConnell blamed Trump (and others) for the insurrection in a speech on the House floor. This is possibly an indication that he would vote to convict. And he wouldn't vote to convict unless he knew that he had enough support in the Republican party for there to be a conviction. It's worth noting that there have been stories for a little while that he's been canvassing the opinion of other Senators on whether they'd vote to convict, and that he's seen the insurrection as an opportunity to rid the GOP of Trump and salt the ground afterwards. No conclusions should be drawn, obviously, but there is reason to believe that Trump will be convicted, and that McConnell will be part of that.
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

Yesterday, 05:27 PM	#1527
dirtywick Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,880	if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now? It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house. It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try? Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate. There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him.
dirtywick Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,880

Yesterday, 05:39 PM	#1528
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,957	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards. I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

Yesterday, 02:18 PM	#1521
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,452	Originally Posted by dudalb it's fear of the Trump base. I think, long term, an acquittal might be the death warrent of the GOP. Of course it is. And that is putting their own ambitions above the good of the country. They want to keep their jobs more than anything else and they fear if they vote 'guilty', they'll get voted out next election. Cowards.

Yesterday, 02:39 PM	#1522
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,629	Originally Posted by Stacyhs If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again. The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators. Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope.

Yesterday, 03:08 PM	#1523
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,452	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B The only chance for conviction is if McConnell weighs the pluses and minuses and decides that throwing Trump under the bus is best for the Republican Party. And communicates that to the Republican senators. Not saying that will happen, but we can only hope. Agreed, but only to a certain point. McConnell has power among the GOP senators but not total control. There are a few like Cruz and Hawley who will not vote to convict no matter what McConnell says.

Yesterday, 05:53 PM	#1529
DevilsAdvocate Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,300	Originally Posted by dirtywick if you want to realpolitik this, what does the average senator gain by protecting Trump now? It’s not clear that Trump even has a base anymore for one. And even at it’s peak it wasn’t enough to keep the presidency and it arguably cost them the senate, and brought with it a bunch of loonies in the house. It’s also readily apparent that Trump has no loyalty to the GOP. Even if you do what he wants, if he even sniffs a break with him he’ll throw you under the bus. He tried to have pence killed for something he couldn’t even do if he wanted to. Can he even be appeased until 2022 and can they count ok his support if they try? Guys like Hawley and Cruz want the 2024 Trump mantle and with it the presidency nomination, but that doesn’t appear to be working out for them either and no one else seems to have that ambition. And for every Cruz there a Romney, and he made a lot of enemies in the senate. There won’t be a better opportunity to rid themselves of him. I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party. He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency. He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side. The information that he is planning to start his own party is also a large concern. Some Republican Senators may feel that he should be convicted based on his actions, and possibly even in the interest of the party, but are concerned about the fall out with his supporters in their state. If he is going to take his supporters and oppose Republicans, then that is no longer a concern. The best way to stop the creation of that party, or at least limit its influence, is to bar him from holding public office. He would not be able to campaign or raise donations under campaign finance laws. There are some considerable political benefits for Republican Senators to convict.
	__________________ I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley

Yesterday, 05:54 PM	#1530
Trebuchet Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Port Townsend, Washington Posts: 30,644	Originally Posted by dudalb Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style. You beat me to it!
	__________________ Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.

Yesterday, 06:07 PM	#1531
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,452	Originally Posted by acbytesla I believe their thinking is wrong. If ever there was a time for the GOP to act as one, this is it. They need as a group to toss Trump under the bus. They need then to run over him a few times to make sure he can never come back to haunt the party. If Trump is convicted 98 to 2 or 100 to zero. They can then come back. 2 years is a long time. They need to speak as one. We liked many of Trump's policies but America is a democracy and Trump undermined it. This we cannot defend. I agree. This is the time for them to say to Republicans "You were lied to. The courts looked at the evidence: there was none. The states, including our Republican governors and Republican majority legislatures looked at the evidence: there was none. The FBI looked at the evidence: there was none. The Dept. of Justice looked at the evidence: there was none. But it's not going to happen because of reps and senators like Cruz, Hawley, Boebert, T-Greene, Harris, Brook, etc. There are just too many true believers and too many scum who want to inherit the mantle like Cruz.

Yesterday, 06:18 PM	#1532
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,452	Originally Posted by dudalb Ah, Jenna is using the Nuremberg Defense. "I was only following orders" never goes out of style. Jenna, who was busy doing commercials for her real estate business while trying to overturn democracy by storming the Capitol.

Yesterday, 07:18 PM	#1533
dirtywick Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,880	Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate I agree. I think McConnell has been thinking the same thing for a couple months now and certainly since the riot. He was a usual tool and the had to put up with him, but many McConnell and other Republican Senators probably do not like him and his antics and feel he was an embarrassment to the party. He was an outsider and larger remained an outsider, if if many Republicans felt a need to often agree with him. They don't want to be controlled by someone who is now out of office and certainly an outsider and who has cost them the House, Senate, and Presidency. He brought many elements into the party that they don't want and would continue to divide the party and push Republicans and Independents over to the Democratic side. There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention. Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate?
dirtywick Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,880

Yesterday, 08:16 PM	#1534
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 27,957	Originally Posted by dirtywick There’s considerations beyond this also. For instance, safely red Lindsey Graham won his re-election, but his win margin closed 6 points in 2020. The Dems turnout more than doubled, as did his own. He was out funded and the race gained national attention. Do they want to be pro Trump in competitive races in 2022? Do they want to run for open seats as the pro Trump candidate? Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

Yesterday, 08:35 PM	#1535
dirtywick Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,880	Originally Posted by acbytesla Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump. Yes, and Graham can do whatever he wants for a while, but the point is that wasn’t an easy win for him in a safe red state. He had to work for it. a guy like Rubio or Johnson doesn’t have that luxury. They’ll have to explain a vote to acquit on a national stage, fight off the full force of the Dems fundraising, and hope that Trump will not only endorse them but that his base holds strong and shows up for them on a ticket he’s not even on. And those are the incumbents. That’s not an ideal situation for a lot of senators.
dirtywick Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 2,880	Last edited by dirtywick; Yesterday at 08:40 PM.

Yesterday, 09:48 PM	#1536
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 85,854	Originally Posted by acbytesla Graham won't be running again for another 6 years. Also, SC is still a pretty red State. It should be noted by Republicans that down ticket members of their party did beter than Trump. Yeah it sucks that McConnell and Graham have 6 years in the election-clear now.

Today, 12:45 AM	#1537
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,452	I'm hoping the Georgia GOP senatorial losses will be a warning to some of these senators that just running on being a Trump supporter ain't gonna hack it no mo'.