Pardons - Page 6

Bob001 · 20th January 2021, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

And if the senate or house is currently under the control of a party that opposes those actions?

In general, I think pardons are an imperfect solution to a problem, for which all alternatives are even more imperfect.

(Not that I wouldn't be opposed to seeing them modify the rules...)

I don't think there's anything wrong with pardons, and most Presidents have used them responsibly. But should any power of the President be absolute? It wouldn't diminish the interests of justice to establish some provision for Congress to revoke any particular pardon.

SuburbanTurkey · 20th January 2021, 12:02 PM

I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples.

Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power.

dudalb · 20th January 2021, 12:07 PM

Looks as if New York State will pick up the Bannon prosecution from the Feds.

Segnosaur · 20th January 2021, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples.

Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power.

Not necessarily a bad idea, but once again, it is dealing with something which may not be an issue if the president were not corrupt.

I can see value in a good president wanting to use a lame-duck period to pardon people who morally should be pardoned, but where the pardon would be politically unpopular. (An example of this would be Obama commuting the sentence of Chelsea Manning.)

Segnosaur · 20th January 2021, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Quote:

So, in the case of something like the Vietnam War draft dodgers... you would want to see them live the rest of their lives with the threat of prosecution over their heads, just because "We can only pardon you if you are found guilty"?

It's the statute of limitations.

So fine... change that to "you would see them have the threat of prosecution for years, until the statute of limitations runs out". Perhaps better, but still a problem.

Quote:

You can also modify prosecution guidelines to not pursue such charges.

Ideally, the department of justice should function independently from the presidency.

Bob001 · 20th January 2021, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

So fine... change that to "you would see them have the threat of prosecution for years, until the statute of limitations runs out". Perhaps better, but still a problem.

Ideally, the department of justice should function independently from the presidency.

Not necessarily. We don't want the President locking up his opponents. But if he says "Let's not enforce federal marijuana laws in states where it's legal," or "Let's not separate babies from mothers at the border even if the law says we can," or "Let's not send minor criminals to prison if compliance and justice can be fulfilled by alternative means," that's not an abuse of power. That's exercising discretion.

lobosrul5 · 20th January 2021, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples.

Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power.

Wouldn't the entire 2nd term for a president be safe from "electoral blowback"?

Segnosaur · 20th January 2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Quote:

I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples.

Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback

Wouldn't the entire 2nd term for a president be safe from "electoral blowback"?

Not necessarily. Just because the president might not be re-elected does not mean there aren't potential ramifications from granting unpopular pardons.

The president would also want to make sure that his party did not lose congressional seats. And, they would also likely want to make sure their party maintained control of the white house (even if they personally were not running for re-election). Those could be in jeopardy if the president does something voters do not like, and they associate "the party" with "the president".

The Don · 20th January 2021, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

Wouldn't the entire 2nd term for a president be safe from "electoral blowback"?

(S)he may have an effect on the Senate and House mid term elections.

BobTheCoward · 20th January 2021, 12:38 PM

What do modern democracies do? Does new zealand give the prime minister pardon power?

Nessie · 20th January 2021, 12:39 PM

Obama pardoned someone for the illegal sale and supply of alligator skins.

psionl0 · 20th January 2021, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

What do modern democracies do? Does new zealand give the prime minister pardon power?

As a representative of the Crown, the Governor General has executive authority in accordance with section 61 of the constitution and can and pardon offenders. This is known as "The Royal Prerogative of Mercy". He does so on the advice of the Attorney General (a member of Parliament and part of the PM's cabinet).

I'm sure that it works the same way in NZ.

https://www.ag.gov.au/crime/federal-offenders/appeals

Thor 2 · 20th January 2021, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Well a lifetime mandatory sentence for a few ounces of marijuana and a scale would be an example of a wrong a POTUS could assess as wrong, times changing and all that.

That is an example of an unjust law. A law that has been generated by Congress and given the stamp of approval by the POTUS. The law should be overturned in the same way and pardons given and/or sentences reduced by the Judiciary, not a random pardon here or there to someone the POTUS smiles upon.

Thor 2 · 20th January 2021, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I don't get the fuss. Revoking or seriously modifying the President's power to issue pardons just because he might pardon the "wrong" people is nothing more than a trivial pursuit.

Not the first time we have disagreed on a topic.

zooterkin · 20th January 2021, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples.

Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power.

Another option is to remove the lame duck period entirely.

bam · 20th January 2021, 06:53 PM

Can we really end the lame duck period? Between tightly contested elections, recounts and the increasing prevalence of election lawsuits it may become more common for it to take extra time to even know who's won.

pgwenthold · 20th January 2021, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

And for as lockstep as the conservative justices are perceived, they told the President to go pound sand in the recent electoral challenges. They do adhere to principles of law when the mood strikes.

Sure, but come on, it's not like there was any actual question here.

How much actual judicial principle does it take to not overturn the results of a Presidential election?

pgwenthold · 20th January 2021, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

I'd like to see the power modified so it could only be used if someone had been found guilty. If the intent is to right a miscarriage of justice, we should give justice a chance to be miscarried.

How about the fact that a large number of the pardoned are politicians who have been convicted of corruption?

Ootta love how the group that wants to "drain the swamp" would think the way to do that is to pardon politicians convicted of corruption. Pretty clearly they have a different concept of what constitutes the political swamp.

Segnosaur · 20th January 2021, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

Another option is to remove the lame duck period entirely.

Unlikely to happen.

Not only would you need to amend the constitution (good luck getting enough states and Congress critters to agree), you would need to change the way the public service functions. (Some countries use a dedicated public service to run government organizations that stays in place between leadership changes. But because the heads of various departments are selected by the incoming administration, there needs to be a period of knowledge transfer)

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

Bob001 · 20th January 2021, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Unlikely to happen.

Not only would you need to amend the constitution (good luck getting enough states and Congress critters to agree), you would need to change the way the public service functions. (Some countries use a dedicated public service to run government organizations that stays in place between leadership changes. But because the heads of various departments are selected by the incoming administration, there needs to be a period of knowledge transfer)
....

Not necessarily. The Constitution sets the date that presidential terms begin and end. But the dates of the election and electoral college meeting are set by law. They could be moved into December. Still a delay, but shorter.

angrysoba · 20th January 2021, 09:26 PM

In the All the President's Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan.

ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in.

Bob001 · 21st January 2021, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

In the All the President's Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan.

ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in.

No reasonable person can think Trump's behavior has been anything like what any other President has done. He is the only President who took office without having previous public service in lower office, the military or often both. Other Presidents have been misguided or mistaken; Trump is the only one who thought the sole purpose of the entire government was to devote itself to his personal interests.

The Great Zaganza · 21st January 2021, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

In the ~~All the President's Lawyers~~ All the Presidents' Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan.

ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in.

FTFY

I think Biden should keep Cipollone on staff to be part of anything involving Trump: it seems the man managed to keep Trump from doing some very damaging things. Biden could use someone who knows how to talk to Trump.

angrysoba · 21st January 2021, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

No reasonable person can think Trump's behavior has been anything like what any other President has done. He is the only President who took office without having previous public service in lower office, the military or often both. Other Presidents have been misguided or mistaken; Trump is the only one who thought the sole purpose of the entire government was to devote itself to his personal interests.

I think they only mean that other presidents of both parties have pardoned corrupt politicians and businessmen.

lionking · 21st January 2021, 01:50 AM

As I understand it, the US follows the Separation of powers principal. How does this gel with Presidential pardons?

Yes, I know a President can grant pardons, but how is this justified other than "he just can"?

Stacyhs · 21st January 2021, 02:04 AM

Included in Trump's pardons were

1. Judge Jeannine Pirro's ex-husband, Albert Pirro, a former real estate associate of Trump's, who was convicted on conspiracy and tax evasion charges.

2. Paul Erickson, the former boyfriend of Russian spy Maria Butina. He was convicted of wire fraud and money laundering.

3. Kenneth Kurson, a longtime friend and associate of Jared Kushner and Rudy Giuliani was pardoned for cyberstalking his girlfriend .

4. Sholam Weiss had his 835 year sentence for a $450 million mortgage and insurance fraud scheme commuted with the backing of Alan Dershowitz and Trump attorney Jay Sekulow. This was even after Weiss has jumped bail and fled to Austria in 2000 before being captured.

SuburbanTurkey · 21st January 2021, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

In the All the President's Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan.

ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in.

One might argue that rich people have a strong feeling of class solidarity that cuts through partisan lines.

The same podcast pointed out that a poor person serving time getting a pardon is like getting struck by lightning. It's a public spectacle, like the pardoning of the Thanksgiving Turkey. The rich, however, have a much better chance of being pardoned for their white collar crimes, be it political corruption or financial scams or whatever else.

Craig4 · 21st January 2021, 06:13 AM

I was amused that "Joe Exotic" had a limo waiting in the visitor parking lot of the federal prison he's in on the night of the 19th.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/tiger-ki...p-pardon-snub/

JoeMorgue · 21st January 2021, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

As I understand it, the US follows the Separation of powers principal. How does this gel with Presidential pardons?

Yes, I know a President can grant pardons, but how is this justified other than "he just can"?

Even as a burgeoning democracy in 1776 America was not immune to historical traditions as to what power a head of state should have and "pardons" in various concepts/implementations go back a long time. The idea that the "Big Seat" should be able to grant mercy is not something America pulled from the aether.

Not to say that it wasn't controversial, even at the time. At the Virginia Ratifying Convention George Mason was one of only 3 delegates who refused to sign the Constitution, based partially on his opposition to the President being given a pardon powder.

pgwenthold · 21st January 2021, 08:04 AM

This is as fitting as can be

Among Trump's pardons is the guy involved in the USC admission scandal, who paid people to take the SAT and Community College classes for his daughter.

Of course, the White House lied about the case, just inventing facts such as the fact the daughter currently has a 3.9 gpa (she's not even enrolled anymore) and claiming that the pardon was supported by people who do not know they support it.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ission-scandal

Lying, cheating, corruption. Yep, that's a Trump pardon in a nutshell.

ahhell · 21st January 2021, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

As I understand it, the US follows the Separation of powers principal. How does this gel with Presidential pardons?

Yes, I know a President can grant pardons, but how is this justified other than "he just can"?

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

This is as fitting as can be

Among Trump's pardons is the guy involved in the USC admission scandal, who paid people to take the SAT and Community College classes for his daughter.

Of course, the White House lied about the case, just inventing facts such as the fact the daughter currently has a 3.9 gpa (she's not even enrolled anymore) and claiming that the pardon was supported by people who do not know they support it.

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ission-scandal

Lying, cheating, corruption. Yep, that's a Trump pardon in a nutshell.

Typical Trump, lying when he doesn't even need to.

psionl0 · 21st January 2021, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Not the first time we have disagreed on a topic.

You can say that again.

The POTUS can start wars, set off nuclear devices - in effect start a global thermo-nuclear war and what gets your knickers in a twist? Presidential pardons.

pgwenthold · 21st January 2021, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can say that again.

The POTUS can start wars, set off nuclear devices - in effect start a global thermo-nuclear war and what gets your knickers in a twist? Presidential pardons.

You think they are separate issues. In contrast, how he uses his ability to pardon is a reflection of who he is.

When he pardons someone convicted of $400million mortgage fraud, you can see what he considers important, for example.

Dr. Keith · 21st January 2021, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

I was amused that "Joe Exotic" had a limo waiting in the visitor parking lot of the federal prison he's in on the night of the 19th.

https://www.phillyvoice.com/tiger-ki...p-pardon-snub/

I wonder who they paid for their pardon and whether their refund request will be expedited.

Thor 2 · 21st January 2021, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

You can say that again.

The POTUS can start wars, set off nuclear devices - in effect start a global thermo-nuclear war and what gets your knickers in a twist? Presidential pardons.

You're right of course.

Why should we worry about dental hygiene when bowel cancer is a greater danger to your health?

Craig4 · 21st January 2021, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

How about the fact that a large number of the pardoned are politicians who have been convicted of corruption?

Ootta love how the group that wants to "drain the swamp" would think the way to do that is to pardon politicians convicted of corruption. Pretty clearly they have a different concept of what constitutes the political swamp.

Requiring conviction wouldn't stop this scenario. It would stop most cases where a president orders people to do something against the law and then pardons them preemptively. If a US attorney was worried about a pardon, said attorney could wait to charge until the end of a presidential term. And, anyone doing anything unlawful for a president would have to risk that chance that for personal or political reasons, the pardon might not come through.

Craig4 · 21st January 2021, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I wonder who they paid for their pardon and whether their refund request will be expedited.

Maybe his attorneys should have paid more and sent an Uber.

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd January 2021, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I wonder who they paid for their pardon and whether their refund request will be expedited.

I wonder if it was an out-and-out scam on Joe, or whoever told him he could advocate for a pardon just wasn't successful in bending Trump's ear.

Susheel · 22nd January 2021, 04:11 AM

Was surprised Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't on the list. Also, how was Joe Exotic so sure about his probable pardon? Were certain monetary considerations in play?

SuburbanTurkey · 22nd January 2021, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by Susheel

Was surprised Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't on the list. Also, how was Joe Exotic so sure about his probable pardon? Were certain monetary considerations in play?

That's what makes me think he got scammed. Maybe someone was telling him it was all good to go, but was really just pumping him for cash.

20th January 2021, 12:02 PM	#202
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,009	I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples. Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

20th January 2021, 12:07 PM	#203
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,334	Looks as if New York State will pick up the Bannon prosecution from the Feds.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

20th January 2021, 12:19 PM	#204
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,117	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples. Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power. Not necessarily a bad idea, but once again, it is dealing with something which may not be an issue if the president were not corrupt. I can see value in a good president wanting to use a lame-duck period to pardon people who morally should be pardoned, but where the pardon would be politically unpopular. (An example of this would be Obama commuting the sentence of Chelsea Manning.)
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

20th January 2021, 12:22 PM	#205
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,117	Originally Posted by Craig4 Quote: So, in the case of something like the Vietnam War draft dodgers... you would want to see them live the rest of their lives with the threat of prosecution over their heads, just because "We can only pardon you if you are found guilty"? It's the statute of limitations. So fine... change that to "you would see them have the threat of prosecution for years, until the statute of limitations runs out". Perhaps better, but still a problem. Quote: You can also modify prosecution guidelines to not pursue such charges. Ideally, the department of justice should function independently from the presidency.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

20th January 2021, 12:31 PM	#207
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,164	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples. Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power. Wouldn't the entire 2nd term for a president be safe from "electoral blowback"?
lobosrul5 Master Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 2,164

20th January 2021, 11:59 AM	#201
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,635	Originally Posted by Segnosaur And if the senate or house is currently under the control of a party that opposes those actions? In general, I think pardons are an imperfect solution to a problem, for which all alternatives are even more imperfect. (Not that I wouldn't be opposed to seeing them modify the rules...) I don't think there's anything wrong with pardons, and most Presidents have used them responsibly. But should any power of the President be absolute? It wouldn't diminish the interests of justice to establish some provision for Congress to revoke any particular pardon.

20th January 2021, 12:29 PM	#206
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,635	Originally Posted by Segnosaur So fine... change that to "you would see them have the threat of prosecution for years, until the statute of limitations runs out". Perhaps better, but still a problem. Ideally, the department of justice should function independently from the presidency. Not necessarily. We don't want the President locking up his opponents. But if he says "Let's not enforce federal marijuana laws in states where it's legal," or "Let's not separate babies from mothers at the border even if the law says we can," or "Let's not send minor criminals to prison if compliance and justice can be fulfilled by alternative means," that's not an abuse of power. That's exercising discretion.

20th January 2021, 12:36 PM	#208
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,117	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Quote: I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples. Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback Wouldn't the entire 2nd term for a president be safe from "electoral blowback"? Not necessarily. Just because the president might not be re-elected does not mean there aren't potential ramifications from granting unpopular pardons. The president would also want to make sure that his party did not lose congressional seats. And, they would also likely want to make sure their party maintained control of the white house (even if they personally were not running for re-election). Those could be in jeopardy if the president does something voters do not like, and they associate "the party" with "the president".
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

20th January 2021, 12:36 PM	#209
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,354	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 Wouldn't the entire 2nd term for a president be safe from "electoral blowback"? (S)he may have an effect on the Senate and House mid term elections.

20th January 2021, 12:38 PM	#210
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 20,238	What do modern democracies do? Does new zealand give the prime minister pardon power?

20th January 2021, 12:39 PM	#211
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 13,000	Obama pardoned someone for the illegal sale and supply of alligator skins.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

20th January 2021, 01:46 PM	#212
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,006	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward What do modern democracies do? Does new zealand give the prime minister pardon power? As a representative of the Crown, the Governor General has executive authority in accordance with section 61 of the constitution and can and pardon offenders. This is known as "The Royal Prerogative of Mercy". He does so on the advice of the Attorney General (a member of Parliament and part of the PM's cabinet). I'm sure that it works the same way in NZ. https://www.ag.gov.au/crime/federal-offenders/appeals
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

20th January 2021, 02:50 PM	#213
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,608	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Well a lifetime mandatory sentence for a few ounces of marijuana and a scale would be an example of a wrong a POTUS could assess as wrong, times changing and all that. That is an example of an unjust law. A law that has been generated by Congress and given the stamp of approval by the POTUS. The law should be overturned in the same way and pardons given and/or sentences reduced by the Judiciary, not a random pardon here or there to someone the POTUS smiles upon.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

20th January 2021, 02:56 PM	#214
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,608	Originally Posted by psionl0 I don't get the fuss. Revoking or seriously modifying the President's power to issue pardons just because he might pardon the "wrong" people is nothing more than a trivial pursuit. Not the first time we have disagreed on a topic.
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.

20th January 2021, 03:21 PM	#215
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Administrator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 48,446	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey I think suspending the pardon power during lame duck sessions could do a fair bit to curtail some of the most nakedly corrupt examples. Make presidents use the power when there's still the possibility of electoral blowback. The lame duck is only from mid November until inauguration in January, and only occurs every 4 or 8 years. Not an unreasonable limitation to this power. Another option is to remove the lame duck period entirely.
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell Zooterkin is correct Darat Nerd! Hokulele Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232 Ezekiel 23:20

20th January 2021, 06:53 PM	#216
bam Scholar Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 102	Can we really end the lame duck period? Between tightly contested elections, recounts and the increasing prevalence of election lawsuits it may become more common for it to take extra time to even know who's won.
bam Scholar Join Date: Jun 2016 Posts: 102

20th January 2021, 07:08 PM	#217
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,129	Originally Posted by Thermal And for as lockstep as the conservative justices are perceived, they told the President to go pound sand in the recent electoral challenges. They do adhere to principles of law when the mood strikes. Sure, but come on, it's not like there was any actual question here. How much actual judicial principle does it take to not overturn the results of a Presidential election?
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

20th January 2021, 07:13 PM	#218
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,129	Originally Posted by Craig4 I'd like to see the power modified so it could only be used if someone had been found guilty. If the intent is to right a miscarriage of justice, we should give justice a chance to be miscarried. How about the fact that a large number of the pardoned are politicians who have been convicted of corruption? Ootta love how the group that wants to "drain the swamp" would think the way to do that is to pardon politicians convicted of corruption. Pretty clearly they have a different concept of what constitutes the political swamp.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

20th January 2021, 08:31 PM	#219
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,117	Originally Posted by zooterkin Another option is to remove the lame duck period entirely. Unlikely to happen. Not only would you need to amend the constitution (good luck getting enough states and Congress critters to agree), you would need to change the way the public service functions. (Some countries use a dedicated public service to run government organizations that stays in place between leadership changes. But because the heads of various departments are selected by the incoming administration, there needs to be a period of knowledge transfer) Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

20th January 2021, 09:10 PM	#220
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,635	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Unlikely to happen. Not only would you need to amend the constitution (good luck getting enough states and Congress critters to agree), you would need to change the way the public service functions. (Some countries use a dedicated public service to run government organizations that stays in place between leadership changes. But because the heads of various departments are selected by the incoming administration, there needs to be a period of knowledge transfer) .... Not necessarily. The Constitution sets the date that presidential terms begin and end. But the dates of the election and electoral college meeting are set by law. They could be moved into December. Still a delay, but shorter.

20th January 2021, 09:26 PM	#221
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,390	In the All the President's Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan. ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) Last edited by angrysoba; 20th January 2021 at 09:32 PM.

21st January 2021, 12:15 AM	#222
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 12,635	Originally Posted by angrysoba In the All the President's Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan. ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in. No reasonable person can think Trump's behavior has been anything like what any other President has done. He is the only President who took office without having previous public service in lower office, the military or often both. Other Presidents have been misguided or mistaken; Trump is the only one who thought the sole purpose of the entire government was to devote itself to his personal interests.
	Last edited by Bob001; 21st January 2021 at 12:23 AM.

21st January 2021, 12:20 AM	#223
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 14,670	Originally Posted by angrysoba In the ~~All the President's Lawyers~~ All the Presidents' Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan. ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in. FTFY I think Biden should keep Cipollone on staff to be part of anything involving Trump: it seems the man managed to keep Trump from doing some very damaging things. Biden could use someone who knows how to talk to Trump.
	__________________ So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do?

21st January 2021, 12:27 AM	#224
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,390	Originally Posted by Bob001 No reasonable person can think Trump's behavior has been anything like what any other President has done. He is the only President who took office without having previous public service in lower office, the military or often both. Other Presidents have been misguided or mistaken; Trump is the only one who thought the sole purpose of the entire government was to devote itself to his personal interests. I think they only mean that other presidents of both parties have pardoned corrupt politicians and businessmen.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

21st January 2021, 01:50 AM	#225
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 46,990	As I understand it, the US follows the Separation of powers principal. How does this gel with Presidential pardons? Yes, I know a President can grant pardons, but how is this justified other than "he just can"?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

21st January 2021, 02:04 AM	#226
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 18,012	Included in Trump's pardons were 1. Judge Jeannine Pirro's ex-husband, Albert Pirro, a former real estate associate of Trump's, who was convicted on conspiracy and tax evasion charges. 2. Paul Erickson, the former boyfriend of Russian spy Maria Butina. He was convicted of wire fraud and money laundering. 3. Kenneth Kurson, a longtime friend and associate of Jared Kushner and Rudy Giuliani was pardoned for cyberstalking his girlfriend . 4. Sholam Weiss had his 835 year sentence for a $450 million mortgage and insurance fraud scheme commuted with the backing of Alan Dershowitz and Trump attorney Jay Sekulow. This was even after Weiss has jumped bail and fled to Austria in 2000 before being captured.

21st January 2021, 05:40 AM	#227
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 8,009	Originally Posted by angrysoba In the All the President's Lawyers podcast, the host and guest agreed that Donald Trump seems to have a lot of solidarity with corrupt people as his pardons are very bipartisan. ETA: But they say that this is the type of disgusting behaviour that pretty much all presidents engage in. One might argue that rich people have a strong feeling of class solidarity that cuts through partisan lines. The same podcast pointed out that a poor person serving time getting a pardon is like getting struck by lightning. It's a public spectacle, like the pardoning of the Thanksgiving Turkey. The rich, however, have a much better chance of being pardoned for their white collar crimes, be it political corruption or financial scams or whatever else.
	__________________ Gobble gobble

21st January 2021, 06:13 AM	#228
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,576	I was amused that "Joe Exotic" had a limo waiting in the visitor parking lot of the federal prison he's in on the night of the 19th. https://www.phillyvoice.com/tiger-ki...p-pardon-snub/

21st January 2021, 06:29 AM	#229
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,684	Originally Posted by lionking As I understand it, the US follows the Separation of powers principal. How does this gel with Presidential pardons? Yes, I know a President can grant pardons, but how is this justified other than "he just can"? Even as a burgeoning democracy in 1776 America was not immune to historical traditions as to what power a head of state should have and "pardons" in various concepts/implementations go back a long time. The idea that the "Big Seat" should be able to grant mercy is not something America pulled from the aether. Not to say that it wasn't controversial, even at the time. At the Virginia Ratifying Convention George Mason was one of only 3 delegates who refused to sign the Constitution, based partially on his opposition to the President being given a pardon powder.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

21st January 2021, 08:04 AM	#230
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,129	This is as fitting as can be Among Trump's pardons is the guy involved in the USC admission scandal, who paid people to take the SAT and Community College classes for his daughter. Of course, the White House lied about the case, just inventing facts such as the fact the daughter currently has a 3.9 gpa (she's not even enrolled anymore) and claiming that the pardon was supported by people who do not know they support it. https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ission-scandal Lying, cheating, corruption. Yep, that's a Trump pardon in a nutshell.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

21st January 2021, 08:11 AM	#231
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,415	Originally Posted by lionking As I understand it, the US follows the Separation of powers principal. How does this gel with Presidential pardons? Yes, I know a President can grant pardons, but how is this justified other than "he just can"? Originally Posted by pgwenthold This is as fitting as can be Among Trump's pardons is the guy involved in the USC admission scandal, who paid people to take the SAT and Community College classes for his daughter. Of course, the White House lied about the case, just inventing facts such as the fact the daughter currently has a 3.9 gpa (she's not even enrolled anymore) and claiming that the pardon was supported by people who do not know they support it. https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ission-scandal Lying, cheating, corruption. Yep, that's a Trump pardon in a nutshell. Typical Trump, lying when he doesn't even need to.
ahhell Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 3,415

21st January 2021, 10:32 AM	#232
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 17,006	Originally Posted by Thor 2 Not the first time we have disagreed on a topic. You can say that again. The POTUS can start wars, set off nuclear devices - in effect start a global thermo-nuclear war and what gets your knickers in a twist? Presidential pardons.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

21st January 2021, 12:55 PM	#233
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 20,129	Originally Posted by psionl0 You can say that again. The POTUS can start wars, set off nuclear devices - in effect start a global thermo-nuclear war and what gets your knickers in a twist? Presidential pardons. You think they are separate issues. In contrast, how he uses his ability to pardon is a reflection of who he is. When he pardons someone convicted of $400million mortgage fraud, you can see what he considers important, for example.
	__________________ "As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Chloe, Secret Life of Pets

21st January 2021, 01:32 PM	#234
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 22,552	Originally Posted by Craig4 I was amused that "Joe Exotic" had a limo waiting in the visitor parking lot of the federal prison he's in on the night of the 19th. https://www.phillyvoice.com/tiger-ki...p-pardon-snub/ I wonder who they paid for their pardon and whether their refund request will be expedited.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

21st January 2021, 02:30 PM	#235
Thor 2 Philosopher Join Date: May 2016 Location: Brisbane, Aust. Posts: 6,608	Originally Posted by psionl0 You can say that again. The POTUS can start wars, set off nuclear devices - in effect start a global thermo-nuclear war and what gets your knickers in a twist? Presidential pardons. You're right of course. Why should we worry about dental hygiene when bowel cancer is a greater danger to your health?
	__________________ Thinking is a faith hazard.