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Old 14th January 2021, 12:07 AM   #3241
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The 'race to the bottom' has begun; neonics are banned in most places, except the US and now the UK.

Weren't the Brexiteers busily claiming that the post-EU UK could improve environmental laws? Where are they now?
Ten EU countries have also approved the temporary "emergency use" of the bee-killing chemical. So it's not a Brexit issue.
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Old 14th January 2021, 02:57 AM   #3242
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Ten EU countries have also approved the temporary "emergency use" of the bee-killing chemical. So it's not a Brexit issue.
Stop lying. It's not entertaining any more.
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Old 14th January 2021, 03:41 AM   #3243
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Stop lying. It's not entertaining any more.
Idiot. I wasn't lying. If you only took time to read, you'd know that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-55566438

Quote:
Along with the UK, 10 EU countries including Belgium, Denmark and Spain - countries with significant sugar production - have granted emergency authorizations.
Please apologize to me now for your wrong accusation of lying.
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Old 14th January 2021, 04:54 AM   #3244
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UKIP tweeted

@UKIP
We are pleased to welcome Katie Hopkins to UKIP!
UKIP is alive and kicking as Britain's voice of common sense. Join Katie in UKIP today - http://ukip.org/join
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:16 AM   #3245
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Idiot. I wasn't lying. If you only took time to read, you'd know that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-55566438


Please apologize to me now for your wrong accusation of lying.
Other than a random BBC remark can you provide evidence of EU legislation on this chemical having changed in the past month?

As for idiot... I'm not the one who voted for Brexit.
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:20 AM   #3246
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Weren't the fishing industry supposedly among the biggest supporters of Leave and the greatest beneficiaries of Brexit?

Fishermen now feel ****** by Leave lies and Tory betrayal just like the rest of us.
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:25 AM   #3247
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
World beating export delays!

What a win for the fishing industry. The fish they can catch they don't have a local market and can't export. The fish they can sell locally they can no longer catch because they can't do quota exchanges and no longer have access to EU waters or waters off countries like Norway that have deals with the EU.


This super-trawler has been sitting in port since Dec because it has no rights to catch fish anywhere.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-55621259
Nous reprendrons le contrôle de nos eaux de pêche. Wir werden die Kontrolle über unsere Fischgewässer. zurückerobern. Vi tager kontrol over vores fiskerivand tilbage. Θα ανακτήσουμε τον έλεγχο των αλιευτικών υδάτων μας. Mes atsiimsime savo žvejybos vandenų kontrolę. Retomaremos el control de nuestras aguas de pesca. Otamme takaisin kalastusvesiemme hallinnan.....
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:30 AM   #3248
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Weren't the fishing industry supposedly among the biggest supporters of Leave and the greatest beneficiaries of Brexit?

Fishermen now feel ****** by Leave lies and Tory betrayal just like the rest of us.
Yes they were.

The small scale fishermen were always going to get shafted, but I think the large fishing corporations were hoping for a generous payday. Didn't turn out as they had hoped.

Also..... boo-frigging-hoo
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:34 AM   #3249
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Weren't the fishing industry supposedly among the biggest supporters of Leave and the greatest beneficiaries of Brexit?

Fishermen now feel ****** by Leave lies and Tory betrayal just like the rest of us.
In fairness i don't feel cheated by Leave lies as I wasn't idiotic enough to believe them in the first place. Nor do I ever feel betrayed by Tories who I never expect to do anything but **** things up.

It must be galling to have actually have been stupid enough to believe the lies in the first place but I doubt anyone stupid enough to have believed them is smart enough to know that they have been shafted.

Still .... fewer brown people! Maybe.
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:37 AM   #3250
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Other than a random BBC remark can you provide evidence of EU legislation on this chemical having changed in the past month?

As for idiot... I'm not the one who voted for Brexit.
There were more people who voted Brexit than voted remain. You feel yourself to be so elite and superior that you can call the majority of democratic voters in the whole country idiots?

BBC not a good enough source for you now? You're an idiot for calling me a liar, when I'm not, when you have no evidence that I am, and when you refuse to acknowledge that even when I post evidence from a reliable source. Now, please apologize.
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:42 AM   #3251
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There were more people who voted Brexit than voted remain. You feel yourself to be so elite and superior that you can call the majority of democratic voters in the whole country idiots?
Yes, if they do something idiotic.

Just because a majority of people do something (or believe something), it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do, just that a majority of people have been persuaded to do it.

A majority of people used to smoke, despite knowing the health implications. I was one of them. We were idiots.
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:43 AM   #3252
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Other than a random BBC remark
It's your contention that the BBC's statement is a lie, is it? Because I have just done a quick Google and can confirm a lot of other sources state that (for example) Belgium has an emergency use authorisation.

So it seems that, under EU legislation, the UK could have authorised the emergency use of neonicotinoids which is all that has been claimed.

Quote:
can you provide evidence of EU legislation on this chemical having changed in the past month?
That's a straw man. Nobody claimed the EU legislation has changed in the past month. What was claimed is that the existing EU legislation allows the emergency use of neonicotinoids; a fact that seems to be born out by ten EU countries having emergency use authorisations.

Quote:
As for idiot... I'm not the one who voted for Brexit.
Yes, voting for Brexit was pretty idiotic but so is accusing a person of lying when they have provided evidence for their assertion.
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Old 14th January 2021, 05:50 AM   #3253
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There were more people who voted Brexit than voted remain. You feel yourself to be so elite and superior that you can call the majority of democratic voters in the whole country idiots?
The 52% of people who voted for Brexit in 2016 did something idiotic. The events of the past four and a half years unequivocally show that to be true.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:42 AM   #3254
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
World beating export delays!

What a win for the fishing industry. The fish they can catch they don't have a local market and can't export. The fish they can sell locally they can no longer catch because they can't do quota exchanges and no longer have access to EU waters or waters off countries like Norway that have deals with the EU.


This super-trawler has been sitting in port since Dec because it has no rights to catch fish anywhere.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-humber-55621259
Hey maybe they can switch up the fish and chips to use fish that are actually in British waters. Think mackerel and chips will catch on?
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:46 AM   #3255
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There were more people who voted Brexit than voted remain. You feel yourself to be so elite and superior that you can call the majority of democratic voters in the whole country idiots?
Yep. I do. And feel quite comfortable doing something. Half the people in the UK are below average intelligence and we know that voting for Brexit is inversely correlated with education. So yes I do. 75m people voted for Trump. The Tories win the GE almost every time. Vast numbers of people do stupid things all the time. Such as vote for Brexit.

Quote:
BBC not a good enough source for you now? You're an idiot for calling me a liar, when I'm not, when you have no evidence that I am, and when you refuse to acknowledge that even when I post evidence from a reliable source. Now, please apologize.
There is no evidence given in the BBC article so I asked you to provide any evidence that EU legislation has changed in the past month. I can find no record of it.

Your contention that this is 'nothing to do with Brexit' is just another example of you refusing to see what is right in front of your eyes. I'll apologise to you when you apologise to everyone for voting like an idiot in the referendum.
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Old 14th January 2021, 06:53 AM   #3256
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Jacob Rees-Mogg in the Commons today "The key is we've got our fish back. They are now British fish, & they're better & happier fish for it."

Mr Speaker "Obviously there's overwhelming evidence for that"
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:04 AM   #3257
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Unsold fish are rotting on docks, seafood companies are hitting the wall, but Jacob Rees-Mogg jokes in parliament that what matters is that fish are now ‘happier’ because they’re ‘British’
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:04 AM   #3258
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
It's your contention that the BBC's statement is a lie, is it? Because I have just done a quick Google and can confirm a lot of other sources state that (for example) Belgium has an emergency use authorisation.

So it seems that, under EU legislation, the UK could have authorised the emergency use of neonicotinoids which is all that has been claimed.
It's my contention that the claim this is 'nothing to do with Brexit' is nonsense. We have a government that wanted to Brexit so it could reduce standards to be more competitive, within a couple of weeks of doing so standards have been reduced. I can see no record of EU legislation having changed in the past couple of weeks.

Countries within the EU have been using these chemicals despite the ban as loopholes have existed and it may be that the BBC is conflating these things. Since the quote is unsourced it's hard to know exactly what they are referring to.

We know that there are countries in the EU much more willing to bend the rules than the UK has been historically.

Quote:
That's a straw man. Nobody claimed the EU legislation has changed in the past month. What was claimed is that the existing EU legislation allows the emergency use of neonicotinoids; a fact that seems to be born out by ten EU countries having emergency use authorisations.
No what was claimed is that it had nothing to do with Brexit. And what I can find on the matter is that a number of EU countries have had these emergency use authorisations but that they are being reviewed by the EFSA and seem to predate anything the UK has done. The UK didn't have one of these as far as I can see but instead waiting until it had left the EU to approve the use of the chemical. Nothing to do with Brexit??? Really? Pull the other one.

Quote:
Yes, voting for Brexit was pretty idiotic but so is accusing a person of lying when they have provided evidence for their assertion.
Well, they didn't actually. Until prompted and then it was a throwaway line from a BBC story. Is that evidence of EU policy? Or is it as usual that the 'evidence' that was later provided is not even half the story. And it's not a one off. It's a pattern of behaviour of dumping Trumpian bovine excrement on the forum and then sodding off for a bit only to come back and do it again. One day its fish, the next its trees, the next it's bees.

ETA: At the VERY least, the actions taken by the UK government in approving this emergency use would have been subject to EU oversight and scrutiny. Which they no longer are. So the claim that 'this is nothing to do with Brexit' is a lie.

Everything we wanted to do we couldn't because of the EU so we have to leave and then the EU didn't stop us doing anything anyway so the changes are nothing to do with leaving.

And then calling someone an idiot because they can see through their xenophobic BS and call them on it.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:04 AM   #3259
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There were more people who voted Brexit than voted remain. You feel yourself to be so elite and superior that you can call the majority of democratic voters in the whole country idiots?
.
Yes. We know half the population have less than average intelligence and we know how that half (those that could work out which end of the pencil to use) voted.

Let me know if you need data on the link between voting got brexit and academic achievement.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:26 AM   #3260
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Jacob Rees-Mogg in the Commons today "The key is we've got our fish back. They are now British fish, & they're better & happier fish for it."

Mr Speaker "Obviously there's overwhelming evidence for that"
Clearly he knows for a fact the fish are happier because he talked to them personally.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:28 AM   #3261
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Clearly he knows for a fact the fish are happier because he talked to them personally.
Perhaps he’s getting confused by his fan mail written in green ink that says he should be sleeping with the fish?
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:33 AM   #3262
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"Downing Street has said Boris Johnson maintains confidence in the fisheries minister after she admitted not reading the post-Brexit trade deal with Brussels when it was agreed because she was busy organising a nativity trail."

linky


ffs
When asked if the PM had read the deal himself his office said he's "fully aware of its contents", not "yes he's read it". If he doesn't think he needs to read it why would he think anyone else needs to?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b1787110.html
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:34 AM   #3263
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's my contention that the claim this is 'nothing to do with Brexit' is nonsense.
I think you're probably wrong about this one.

Here's the Guardian's report:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...and-eu-farmers

One particular banned neonicotinoid has been sanctioned for emergency use in England and a number of EU countries, to treat sugar beet seed. I gather the purpose is to stop aphids which have been spreading a virus that's badly affecting the beet crop. Worth noting that the ban is there to protect pollinating bees and sugar beet is a non-flowering crop. It's not ideal that the stuff is being used but it's probably a sensible compromise in the circumstances.
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Old 14th January 2021, 07:36 AM   #3264
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Perhaps he’s getting confused by his fan mail written in green ink that says he should be sleeping with the fish?
Maybe that came from a fish that was very excited by the discussion.
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Old 14th January 2021, 08:11 AM   #3265
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I think you're probably wrong about this one.

Here's the Guardian's report:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...and-eu-farmers

One particular banned neonicotinoid has been sanctioned for emergency use in England and a number of EU countries, to treat sugar beet seed. I gather the purpose is to stop aphids which have been spreading a virus that's badly affecting the beet crop. Worth noting that the ban is there to protect pollinating bees and sugar beet is a non-flowering crop. It's not ideal that the stuff is being used but it's probably a sensible compromise in the circumstances.
Did you read my more detailed post above?

As far as I can see these emergency use orders are not new in the EU and so have nothing to do with the UK decision. They are also subject to EFSA review.

Had this been "nothing to do with Brexit" it could have been done in 2020. Are we supposed to believe that it's mere coincidence that it happens less than 2 weeks after we leave?
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:43 AM   #3266
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Clearly he knows for a fact the fish are happier because he talked to them personally.
Yesterday in the House Mr Dedwood informed opposition MPs "I was swimming in the Caribbean
Animals were hiding behind the rock
Except the little fish
Bump into me, swear he's
Tryin' a talk to me, say wait wait

Where is my mind?
Where is my mind?
Where is my mind?
Way out in the water
See it swimming"

The MP for Wokingham (who is petioning to change the town's name to 'All Lives Mattertown') was not available to comment.
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Old 14th January 2021, 02:37 PM   #3267
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"Downing Street has said Boris Johnson maintains confidence in the fisheries minister after she admitted not reading the post-Brexit trade deal with Brussels when it was agreed because she was busy organising a nativity trail."

linky


ffs
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Ye gods, the EU really dropped the ball there. They could have put in a clause that a part of the agreement is that the UK starts using the Euro and it would have been signed.
Good thing the UK elected such competent leaders to return them to Imperial Glory.
The current UKGov was chosen for loyalty to BoBo (or at least lack of threat to the Bouffant Buffoon) and willingness to pander to the Brexiteers. Competence or skills were utterly unimportant. Hence the current messes.
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Old 14th January 2021, 04:37 PM   #3268
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Ten EU countries doing the same thing, but you think the reason the UK does it is Brexit?
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

Last edited by zooterkin; 17th January 2021 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 15th January 2021, 03:01 AM   #3269
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Ten EU countries doing the same thing, but you think the reason the UK does it is Brexit?
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
.
You think it's mere coincidence that we change the rules a week after we leave the jurisdiction of an organisation that provided oversight on the use of these chemicals? Aye, right.

Still waiting for you to show what changed in the EU or any of these 10 EU countries in the past fortnight? You have read beyond 1 BBC article I hope? It should be relatively easy to prove me wrong on that one.

Quote:
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:03 AM   #3270
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The FT today is reporting that the UK is getting ready to tear up the working time directive. We were assured that workers' rights would be protected post-Brexit - the usual Brexiteer lies.

Welcome to the post-Brexit sweatshop
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:20 AM   #3271
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The FT today is reporting that the UK is getting ready to tear up the working time directive. We were assured that workers' rights would be protected post-Brexit - the usual Brexiteer lies.

Welcome to the post-Brexit sweatshop
Typical remoaner, we are getting rid of silly EU restrictions and giving workers their right to work as long as they want, soon we’ll also be giving them back their right to work in unsafe conditions... More choice for the workers!
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Old 15th January 2021, 04:25 AM   #3272
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Typical remoaner, we are getting rid of silly EU restrictions and giving workers their right to work as long as they want, soon we’ll also be giving them back their right to work in unsafe conditions... More choice for the workers!

Victorian values.
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Old 15th January 2021, 06:10 AM   #3273
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Typical remoaner, we are getting rid of silly EU restrictions and giving workers their right to work as long as they want, soon we’ll also be giving them back their right to work in unsafe conditions... More choice for the workers!
The EU directive just doesn't work for us. Take doctors: 5 years of medical training, add in living costs during that time you are looking at over 100 grand. 5.6% interest rates. How are they going to pay it off in any reasonable time if we don't let them work over 100 hours a week? They need to be pulling in a few 48 hour shifts if they are to make a dent in their debt to us all.

We chose to join the common market but no one asked me if I wanted doctors fit and awake enough to treat me. I never voted for this EU imposed insanity.
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Old 15th January 2021, 06:14 AM   #3274
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The FT today is reporting that the UK is getting ready to tear up the working time directive. We were assured that workers' rights would be protected post-Brexit - the usual Brexiteer lies.

Welcome to the post-Brexit sweatshop
And the usual lying Brexiteer goblins are already out lying about how this is a good thing and what people wanted when they voted idiotically for Brexit.
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Old 15th January 2021, 06:19 AM   #3275
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The FT today is reporting that the UK is getting ready to tear up the working time directive. We were assured that workers' rights would be protected post-Brexit - the usual Brexiteer lies.

Welcome to the post-Brexit sweatshop
It iwll be good for the NHS apparently. Doctors will be have the freedom to work longer hours.

So back to 100 hour weeks for the juniors.
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Old 15th January 2021, 06:23 AM   #3276
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Did you read my more detailed post above?

As far as I can see these emergency use orders are not new in the EU and so have nothing to do with the UK decision. They are also subject to EFSA review.

Had this been "nothing to do with Brexit" it could have been done in 2020. Are we supposed to believe that it's mere coincidence that it happens less than 2 weeks after we leave?
Yes, I read it, but it's not clear to me that the UK has permanently changed its rules rather than issuing the same type of emergency use order the other countries have used, which seems to be what you're suggesting.
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Old 15th January 2021, 06:28 AM   #3277
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The FT today is reporting that the UK is getting ready to tear up the working time directive. We were assured that workers' rights would be protected post-Brexit - the usual Brexiteer lies.

Welcome to the post-Brexit sweatshop
Reuters reports the same thing but with a bit of government spokesperson pushback, reassuring us that the demolition of workers rights they're definitely not plotting will be carefully labelled as "improvements".

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-b...-idUSKBN29J2Y8
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Old 15th January 2021, 06:29 AM   #3278
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David Schneider tweets

@davidschneider
Government:
We didn’t kneecap the music industry, it was the EU.
We didn’t kneecap the music industry, it was the EU.
We didn’t kneecap the music industry, it was the EU.
[quiet voice]
OK, it was us.
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Old 15th January 2021, 08:44 AM   #3279
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Yes, I read it, but it's not clear to me that the UK has permanently changed its rules rather than issuing the same type of emergency use order the other countries have used, which seems to be what you're suggesting.
The UK has been dragging its heels and pushing back on these regulations for the whole time it was in the EU. And it has allowed emergency use orders in the past.

But the use of these emergency orders has attracted a lot of attention and criticism within the EU and the EFSA has gotten involved. The push in the EU has been to tighten the regs with the UK being one of the objectors.

Meanwhile, despite assurances that they wouldn't, the UK takes the very first opportunity it gets outside the EU to allow the use of these chemicals. And since we aren't a member anymore there is no EU oversight or recourse to the decision.

So to say it has nothing to do with Brexit is just not true. This whole matter is intrinsically linked to Brexit and to try to wave it away with whataboutery as some people have doesn't wash with me.

The alternative is that it is mere coincidence that this happened a week after we left the EU and not a week before we did.
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Old 15th January 2021, 11:05 AM   #3280
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Well, one plausible reason to make the emergency use order now is to be in time for spring planting. I take your point about its being politically easier now as they won't face EU pushback but when several EU nations are already doing the same thing it doesn't look like an open and shut case.
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