Sudan woman faces death for apostasy / Appeal court overturns - Page 6

Tony · 30th July 2014, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150

Religion is often the post-hoc justification for the actual motivations for violence, which include politics, territoriality, tribalism, and fighting over limited resources.

"Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology.

Quote:

Remove religion from the equation and people would still find stupid reasons to kill each other over mud.

Likewise, remove politics, territoriality, and tribalism and people will still kill each other over religion. Religion is one of many reasons people have killed each other.

Now that I've addressed your BS attempts at dodging to the question. Care to actually answer it?

Let me remind you what it is.

If the existence of peaceful Nazis isn't enough to disqualify Naziism from being considered as violent. Why is the existence of peaceful religionists enough to keep religion from being considered violent?

A'isha · 30th July 2014, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

"Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology.

Because "Naziism" is a narrow, specific, focused, unitary ideology, while "Islam" is not.

"Islam" isn't comparable to "Naziism". Something like Qutbism would be, or Jamaatism.

Tony · 30th July 2014, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by A'isha

Because "Naziism" is a narrow, specific, focused, unitary ideology, while "Islam" is not.

That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific. That aside, this is more an excuse for you to pretend the facts are something other than what they really are than it is an actual reason. For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology.

A'isha · 30th July 2014, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific.

I'm sure there are too. There are also millions of Muslims who disagree with the particular "narrow and specific" things that those Muslims believe. There are a whole lot of Muslims out there, and they don't often agree on just what "being a Muslim" actually entails. They can't even agree on what the shahada is!

Quote:

For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology.

I consider Naziism violent, just like I consider Qutbism violent.

Tony · 30th July 2014, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by A'isha

I consider Naziism violent, just like I consider Qutbism violent.

And I consider Islam and Christianity violent just like I consider fascism violent.

Chaos · 30th July 2014, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific. That aside, this is more an excuse for you to pretend the facts are something other than what they really are than it is an actual reason. For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology.

And you are the judge qualified to decide that they are actually right about that - and, what´s more, which of many mutually contradictory narrow and specific beliefs is actually right?

What makes you, a non-Muslim mercifully free of any kind of in-depth knowledge of Islam, the ultimate judge of which version is Islam is the real one by which "Islam" is to be defined?

Tony · 30th July 2014, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Chaos

And you are the judge qualified to decide that they are actually right about that - and, what´s more, which of many mutually contradictory narrow and specific beliefs is actually right?

Yes. I have a brain and I haven't surrendered the use of skepticism and reason. Do you not consider yourself qualified to judge the rightness or wrongness of beliefs?

Quote:

What makes you, a non-Muslim mercifully free of any kind of in-depth knowledge of Islam, the ultimate judge of which version is Islam is the real one by which "Islam" is to be defined?

You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam.

A'isha · 30th July 2014, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam.

I am?

EDIT: Because I quite distinctly remember posting things like this:

Originally Posted by A'isha

I'm sure there are too. There are also millions of Muslims who disagree with the particular "narrow and specific" things that those Muslims believe. There are a whole lot of Muslims out there, and they don't often agree on just what "being a Muslim" actually entails. They can't even agree on what the shahada is!

GlennB · 30th July 2014, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by A'isha

I am?

No, you're not.

But you do seem to have a talent for finding a specific minor flavour of Islam that counteracts the nasty taste of a more substantial part of that religion.

A'isha · 30th July 2014, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

No, you're not.

But you do seem to have a talent for finding a specific minor flavour of Islam that counteracts the nasty taste of a more substantial part of that religion.

If the violent Muslims outnumbered the non-violent ones, then you and I would be dead already.

Frozenwolf150 · 30th July 2014, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

"Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology.

Likewise, remove politics, territoriality, and tribalism and people will still kill each other over religion. Religion is one of many reasons people have killed each other.

Look at any given violent conflict in history and you'll find that the causes are far more complex than simply "religion is evil and the cause of all our wars." Look beneath the surface of any conflict people have claimed to fight over religion, and you'll find one of the other causes I mentioned. The Crusades, for example, were fought for a combination of religious, political, and economic reasons.

At the root of it, people were still fighting over territory, the way other animal species do. Chimps will kill each other over territory, no religion required.

Originally Posted by Tony

Now that I've addressed your BS attempts at dodging to the question. Care to actually answer it?

You haven't addressed or disproven anything. You just posted an opposing assertion.

Originally Posted by Tony

If the existence of peaceful Nazis isn't enough to disqualify Naziism from being considered as violent. Why is the existence of peaceful religionists enough to keep religion from being considered violent?

Nazism is an ideology focused specifically on bigotry against the Jews and their extermination. Any given religion isn't going to be this narrow, unless you look specifically to extremist groups, in which case it's a fallacy of generalization to broad-brush the entire religion based on the beliefs of the extremists.

Frozenwolf150 · 30th July 2014, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

And I consider Islam and Christianity violent just like I consider fascism violent.

I dunno about you, but if I were to ever experience a religious hate boner lasting longer than 4 hours, I'd seek medical attention.

Chaos · 31st July 2014, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Tony

Yes. I have a brain and I haven't surrendered the use of skepticism and reason.

If that is what you sincerely believe, you have no freaking clue about what "skepticism" and "reason" mean.

Quote:

Do you not consider yourself qualified to judge the rightness or wrongness of beliefs?

I, unlike you, am not running around making authoritative statements about something I know next to nothing about.

Quote:

You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam.

Except that she isn´t - unlike you. And, also unlike you, she actually does have a clue about Islam.

30th July 2014, 12:12 PM	#201
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,408	Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 Religion is often the post-hoc justification for the actual motivations for violence, which include politics, territoriality, tribalism, and fighting over limited resources. "Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology. Quote: Remove religion from the equation and people would still find stupid reasons to kill each other over mud. Likewise, remove politics, territoriality, and tribalism and people will still kill each other over religion. Religion is one of many reasons people have killed each other. Now that I've addressed your BS attempts at dodging to the question. Care to actually answer it? Let me remind you what it is. If the existence of peaceful Nazis isn't enough to disqualify Naziism from being considered as violent. Why is the existence of peaceful religionists enough to keep religion from being considered violent?
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

30th July 2014, 12:28 PM	#202
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by Tony "Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology. Because "Naziism" is a narrow, specific, focused, unitary ideology, while "Islam" is not. "Islam" isn't comparable to "Naziism". Something like Qutbism would be, or Jamaatism.
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

30th July 2014, 12:43 PM	#203
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,408	Originally Posted by A'isha Because "Naziism" is a narrow, specific, focused, unitary ideology, while "Islam" is not. That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific. That aside, this is more an excuse for you to pretend the facts are something other than what they really are than it is an actual reason. For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain Last edited by Tony; 30th July 2014 at 12:45 PM.

30th July 2014, 12:50 PM	#204
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by Tony That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific. I'm sure there are too. There are also millions of Muslims who disagree with the particular "narrow and specific" things that those Muslims believe. There are a whole lot of Muslims out there, and they don't often agree on just what "being a Muslim" actually entails. They can't even agree on what the shahada is! Quote: For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology. I consider Naziism violent, just like I consider Qutbism violent.
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

30th July 2014, 01:33 PM	#205
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,408	Originally Posted by A'isha I consider Naziism violent, just like I consider Qutbism violent. And I consider Islam and Christianity violent just like I consider fascism violent.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

30th July 2014, 01:37 PM	#206
Chaos Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 10,519	Originally Posted by Tony That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific. That aside, this is more an excuse for you to pretend the facts are something other than what they really are than it is an actual reason. For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology. And you are the judge qualified to decide that they are actually right about that - and, what´s more, which of many mutually contradictory narrow and specific beliefs is actually right? What makes you, a non-Muslim mercifully free of any kind of in-depth knowledge of Islam, the ultimate judge of which version is Islam is the real one by which "Islam" is to be defined?

30th July 2014, 01:49 PM	#207
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 15,408	Originally Posted by Chaos And you are the judge qualified to decide that they are actually right about that - and, what´s more, which of many mutually contradictory narrow and specific beliefs is actually right? Yes. I have a brain and I haven't surrendered the use of skepticism and reason. Do you not consider yourself qualified to judge the rightness or wrongness of beliefs? Quote: What makes you, a non-Muslim mercifully free of any kind of in-depth knowledge of Islam, the ultimate judge of which version is Islam is the real one by which "Islam" is to be defined? You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

30th July 2014, 01:58 PM	#208
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by Tony You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam. I am? EDIT: Because I quite distinctly remember posting things like this: Originally Posted by A'isha I'm sure there are too. There are also millions of Muslims who disagree with the particular "narrow and specific" things that those Muslims believe. There are a whole lot of Muslims out there, and they don't often agree on just what "being a Muslim" actually entails. They can't even agree on what the shahada is!
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni Last edited by A'isha; 30th July 2014 at 02:01 PM.

30th July 2014, 02:05 PM	#209
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Usk, Wales Posts: 26,539	Originally Posted by A'isha I am? No, you're not. But you do seem to have a talent for finding a specific minor flavour of Islam that counteracts the nasty taste of a more substantial part of that religion.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

30th July 2014, 02:16 PM	#210
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by GlennB No, you're not. But you do seem to have a talent for finding a specific minor flavour of Islam that counteracts the nasty taste of a more substantial part of that religion. If the violent Muslims outnumbered the non-violent ones, then you and I would be dead already.
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

30th July 2014, 07:56 PM	#211
Frozenwolf150 Formerly SilentKnight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,134	Originally Posted by Tony "Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology. Likewise, remove politics, territoriality, and tribalism and people will still kill each other over religion. Religion is one of many reasons people have killed each other. Look at any given violent conflict in history and you'll find that the causes are far more complex than simply "religion is evil and the cause of all our wars." Look beneath the surface of any conflict people have claimed to fight over religion, and you'll find one of the other causes I mentioned. The Crusades, for example, were fought for a combination of religious, political, and economic reasons. At the root of it, people were still fighting over territory, the way other animal species do. Chimps will kill each other over territory, no religion required. Originally Posted by Tony Now that I've addressed your BS attempts at dodging to the question. Care to actually answer it? You haven't addressed or disproven anything. You just posted an opposing assertion. Originally Posted by Tony If the existence of peaceful Nazis isn't enough to disqualify Naziism from being considered as violent. Why is the existence of peaceful religionists enough to keep religion from being considered violent? Nazism is an ideology focused specifically on bigotry against the Jews and their extermination. Any given religion isn't going to be this narrow, unless you look specifically to extremist groups, in which case it's a fallacy of generalization to broad-brush the entire religion based on the beliefs of the extremists.
	__________________ We'll meet again, Don't know where, Don't know when But I know we'll meet again some sunny day Keep smiling through, Just like you always do Till the blue skies drive the dark clouds far away

30th July 2014, 09:26 PM	#212
Frozenwolf150 Formerly SilentKnight Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,134	Originally Posted by Tony And I consider Islam and Christianity violent just like I consider fascism violent. I dunno about you, but if I were to ever experience a religious hate boner lasting longer than 4 hours, I'd seek medical attention.
	__________________ We'll meet again, Don't know where, Don't know when But I know we'll meet again some sunny day Keep smiling through, Just like you always do Till the blue skies drive the dark clouds far away

31st July 2014, 12:08 AM	#213
Chaos Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 10,519	Originally Posted by Tony Yes. I have a brain and I haven't surrendered the use of skepticism and reason. If that is what you sincerely believe, you have no freaking clue about what "skepticism" and "reason" mean. Quote: Do you not consider yourself qualified to judge the rightness or wrongness of beliefs? I, unlike you, am not running around making authoritative statements about something I know next to nothing about. Quote: You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam. Except that she isn´t - unlike you. And, also unlike you, she actually does have a clue about Islam.