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Tags apostasy incidents , Islam incidents , Sudan incidents , Sudan issues

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Old 30th July 2014, 12:12 PM   #201
Tony
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Religion is often the post-hoc justification for the actual motivations for violence, which include politics, territoriality, tribalism, and fighting over limited resources.
"Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology.

Quote:
Remove religion from the equation and people would still find stupid reasons to kill each other over mud.
Likewise, remove politics, territoriality, and tribalism and people will still kill each other over religion. Religion is one of many reasons people have killed each other.

Now that I've addressed your BS attempts at dodging to the question. Care to actually answer it?

Let me remind you what it is.

If the existence of peaceful Nazis isn't enough to disqualify Naziism from being considered as violent. Why is the existence of peaceful religionists enough to keep religion from being considered violent?
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Old 30th July 2014, 12:28 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
"Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology.
Because "Naziism" is a narrow, specific, focused, unitary ideology, while "Islam" is not.

"Islam" isn't comparable to "Naziism". Something like Qutbism would be, or Jamaatism.
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Old 30th July 2014, 12:43 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Because "Naziism" is a narrow, specific, focused, unitary ideology, while "Islam" is not.
That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific. That aside, this is more an excuse for you to pretend the facts are something other than what they really are than it is an actual reason. For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology.
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Old 30th July 2014, 12:50 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific.
I'm sure there are too. There are also millions of Muslims who disagree with the particular "narrow and specific" things that those Muslims believe. There are a whole lot of Muslims out there, and they don't often agree on just what "being a Muslim" actually entails. They can't even agree on what the shahada is!

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For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology.
I consider Naziism violent, just like I consider Qutbism violent.
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Old 30th July 2014, 01:33 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I consider Naziism violent, just like I consider Qutbism violent.
And I consider Islam and Christianity violent just like I consider fascism violent.
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Old 30th July 2014, 01:37 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
That may be your opinion. But is by no means objective fact. I'm sure there are millions of Muslims who belief their religion is narrow and specific. That aside, this is more an excuse for you to pretend the facts are something other than what they really are than it is an actual reason. For instance, I have no doubt (atleast I hope) that you would still consider Naziism violent despite any efforts Nazis made to broaden their ideology.
And you are the judge qualified to decide that they are actually right about that - and, whatīs more, which of many mutually contradictory narrow and specific beliefs is actually right?

What makes you, a non-Muslim mercifully free of any kind of in-depth knowledge of Islam, the ultimate judge of which version is Islam is the real one by which "Islam" is to be defined?
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Old 30th July 2014, 01:49 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
And you are the judge qualified to decide that they are actually right about that - and, whatīs more, which of many mutually contradictory narrow and specific beliefs is actually right?
Yes. I have a brain and I haven't surrendered the use of skepticism and reason. Do you not consider yourself qualified to judge the rightness or wrongness of beliefs?

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What makes you, a non-Muslim mercifully free of any kind of in-depth knowledge of Islam, the ultimate judge of which version is Islam is the real one by which "Islam" is to be defined?
You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam.
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Old 30th July 2014, 01:58 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam.
I am?

EDIT: Because I quite distinctly remember posting things like this:

Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I'm sure there are too. There are also millions of Muslims who disagree with the particular "narrow and specific" things that those Muslims believe. There are a whole lot of Muslims out there, and they don't often agree on just what "being a Muslim" actually entails. They can't even agree on what the shahada is!
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Last edited by A'isha; 30th July 2014 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 30th July 2014, 02:05 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I am?
No, you're not.

But you do seem to have a talent for finding a specific minor flavour of Islam that counteracts the nasty taste of a more substantial part of that religion.
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Old 30th July 2014, 02:16 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
No, you're not.

But you do seem to have a talent for finding a specific minor flavour of Islam that counteracts the nasty taste of a more substantial part of that religion.
If the violent Muslims outnumbered the non-violent ones, then you and I would be dead already.
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Old 30th July 2014, 07:56 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
"Often". And guess what, it "often" isn't a post-hoc justification. Political ideology is also "often" a post-hoc justification, yet, I don't see how that will keep you from considering Naziism to be a violent ideology.

Likewise, remove politics, territoriality, and tribalism and people will still kill each other over religion. Religion is one of many reasons people have killed each other.
Look at any given violent conflict in history and you'll find that the causes are far more complex than simply "religion is evil and the cause of all our wars." Look beneath the surface of any conflict people have claimed to fight over religion, and you'll find one of the other causes I mentioned. The Crusades, for example, were fought for a combination of religious, political, and economic reasons.

At the root of it, people were still fighting over territory, the way other animal species do. Chimps will kill each other over territory, no religion required.

Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Now that I've addressed your BS attempts at dodging to the question. Care to actually answer it?
You haven't addressed or disproven anything. You just posted an opposing assertion.

Originally Posted by Tony View Post
If the existence of peaceful Nazis isn't enough to disqualify Naziism from being considered as violent. Why is the existence of peaceful religionists enough to keep religion from being considered violent?
Nazism is an ideology focused specifically on bigotry against the Jews and their extermination. Any given religion isn't going to be this narrow, unless you look specifically to extremist groups, in which case it's a fallacy of generalization to broad-brush the entire religion based on the beliefs of the extremists.
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Old 30th July 2014, 09:26 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
And I consider Islam and Christianity violent just like I consider fascism violent.
I dunno about you, but if I were to ever experience a religious hate boner lasting longer than 4 hours, I'd seek medical attention.
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Old 31st July 2014, 12:08 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Yes. I have a brain and I haven't surrendered the use of skepticism and reason.
If that is what you sincerely believe, you have no freaking clue about what "skepticism" and "reason" mean.

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Do you not consider yourself qualified to judge the rightness or wrongness of beliefs?
I, unlike you, am not running around making authoritative statements about something I know next to nothing about.

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You need to direct this question to A'isha. She is the one making declarations about which Islam is the "real" Islam.
Except that she isnīt - unlike you. And, also unlike you, she actually does have a clue about Islam.
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