Watching the debate tonight?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

What's going on? This is almost like a normal debate.

Where one guy tells lie after blatant lie?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Galaxie

Once again, Trump claims he will release his taxes as soon as the audit is over LOL

I thought he almost said he would instruct his people but caught himself in time to say ask them.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Indeed. He's lying again.

"I'm telling all my people to get my taxes out there. It will definitely happen at some point.....like totes!"

Speaking of pre-paying, it still goes on your form

Amount you owe
Minus credits and amount you paid in
Balance owed.

I wish Biden had known to say that.

[Stacyhs]

A CNN reporter asked a Trump supporter how she thought he did in last night's debate. She answered "Great!"

CNN: Did you hear a health care plan?
Supporter: Yes, I did.
CNN: You did?
Supporter: Yes, I did. He'll protect us.
CNN: But how?
Supporter: Because he's going to protect us. Because he has a plan and everything.
CNN: But he's been promising a plan for years.
Supporter: Sorry, I don't want to talk to you anymore.
She walks away.....

They believe what they want to believe and when it starts to dawn on them that they don't know what they're talking about, they run from that reality so they don't have to face the truth. They'd rather remain happy in their own false reality than face the truth.

[Minoosh]

Something Biden said that I liked ... when talking about reopening he mentioned ventilation. Now, that is a deeply unsexy topic, but it indicated to me that he's been briefed in the nuts and bolts of virus transmission and actually listens.

It's like planning for drainage - very boring, but if it doesn't happen everyone notices.

[chrispy]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

A CNN reporter asked a Trump supporter how she thought he did in last night's debate. She answered "Great!"

CNN: Did you hear a health care plan?
Supporter: Yes, I did.
CNN: You did?
Supporter: Yes, I did. He'll protect us.
CNN: But how?
Supporter: Because he's going to protect us. Because he has a plan and everything.
CNN: But he's been promising a plan for years.
Supporter: Sorry, I don't want to talk to you anymore.
She walks away.....

They believe what they want to believe and when it starts to dawn on them that they don't know what they're talking about, they run from that reality so they don't have to face the truth. They'd rather remain happy in their own false reality than face the truth.

That interview pretty much sums up every interaction I've had with Trump supporters. And yes, some of them even travel to Guatemala, though they **** on everything and everone and I doubt they actually enjoy the experience other than the cheap factor.

[Safe-Keeper]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

A CNN reporter asked a Trump supporter how she thought he did in last night's debate. She answered "Great!"

CNN: Did you hear a health care plan?
Supporter: Yes, I did.
CNN: You did?
Supporter: Yes, I did. He'll protect us.
CNN: But how?
Supporter: Because he's going to protect us. Because he has a plan and everything.
CNN: But he's been promising a plan for years.
Supporter: Sorry, I don't want to talk to you anymore.
She walks away.....

This mirrors my experience, too, except usually it ends with "would Biden do a better job" or some other emergency whataboutism. Or them just ghosting the comments thread.

[Skeptic Ginger]

So I'm watching Democracy Now and the issue of the commutations was covered. How many sentences is Trump bragging he commuted?

Well it turns out during the Obama/Biden administration they commuted thousands! Thousands! So I looked it up. Turns out it was true.

COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Holy cow! I didn't know this. Obama never bragged about this.

[Delvo]

Originally Posted by Venom

Kamala Harris "more liberal than Bernie Sanders"

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

If you go by voting records in the Senate, that's actually true.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

...which, to be fair, is quite short compared to Bernie's.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The problem with that comparison is it is limited by what McConnell allows on the floor to be voted on.

I asked recently what the basis for this description was, because, particularly given how much it gets repeated now (by right-wingers who think it sounds bad), it sounded like just a slogan. The answer I got is quoted below because it included links to sites where you can look more closely at the original data if you want.

It turns out to be the outcome of actually checking how everybody voted on every bill and adding the numbers up (and was apparently originally put out by a lefty group as an endorsement). Unfortunately, it does seem rather largely based on symbolic-gesture bills rather than bills that would actually make life here better or worse. But it's enough to show that the claim that as a Senator she was generally pretty lefty is a reasonable assessment, not just arbitrarily made up and not as absurd as it sounds now.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

These are the sources that were cited when I first heard this:

https://www.progressivepunch.org/sco...er=down&party=

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/mem...port-card/2019

It should be noted, though, that the second of those links is no longer functional, it seems as a protest about recent moves made by Trump & his staff re the election.

You can listen to the podcast where it's discussed in some detail here. The format is that they work backwards over her career, so the Senate stuff is close to the front, with her behaviour as a candidate before that.

You can also check out her entire voting record here, or compare her voting record to any other senator here (the precise link I've provided takes you to a comparison with Sanders), which will not only tell you how often they agreed but also what they disagreed on. You can then filter those results by major bills vs. all bill, and follow links to more details on the bills, including any statements made by lawmakers about the bills. FWIW, Sanders and Harris disagreed on only 2 bills that the site classifies as major.

There are some sources I've seen that paint her voting record as to the right of Sanders', but I think it's fair to say that under any measure that I've seen there isn't much in it either way. If "roughly equal with Sanders" is more satisfactory than "to the left of Sanders", then fine. It's not a hugely important distinction.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

Something Biden said that I liked ...

I thought his best moment was looking at the camera saying "I don't want to talk about Democrat or Republican families, I want to talk about American families - your family."

There is absolutely only one of those guys that even begins to meet the term "trustworthy".

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

I wish Biden would take a different approach. Instead of "we are going to work to end ..." it should be, "We know we can't rely on these forever, and so we need to work to find alternate approaches...."

He kind of does that, but it needs to be moreso. I like his "we are going to find alternatives that create millions of jobs..."

When Hillary went into WV and talked about setting up retraining to help the miners who were losing jobs due to the inevitable (and already ongoing) contraction of the coal mining industry, that was framed by Repugnicans as wanting to crush the coal industry and put miners out of work.

Trump won WV by record breaking margins.

And most of those who voted for him knew perfectly well that, in spite of what he told them, those jobs weren't coming back.

Even the coal companies were trying their best to get out of the coal mining business ... and still are.

By the same token, the petroleum industry companies are doing their damnedest to move into renewables and get away from resource extraction. But that won't matter to the voters who believe that it's Democrats who are trying to kill off their jobs.

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Minoosh

But I doubt if it satisfies him as much. With him, restraint is often followed by a long stream of rabid rantings. Like he has to get it out of his system.

Sort of a slimy populist's version of Tourette's.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by Athyrio

What’s the purpose of a debate? To change somebody’s vote at this stage of the game? First presidential election I voted in was 1968, voted for Nixon and regretted it a few months later. Never voted for a Republican for prez since. Never voted for any Democrat at any level either.

Presidential debates are as much horseapples as the state of the union address. I don’t waste my time with clowns.

Enjoy though, you guys that get off on it.

Be careful getting off that high horse.

[SezMe]

Originally Posted by The Don

Looking for succour in false polls. By all means use these for public consumption but use the real polls to plan your campaign. I'm confident that these will be the only polls he will see.

I suspect you're right but one of the downsides to that is it engenders a much more emphatic (vicious?) rejection of the results on Nov. 3. I wouldn't care one whit about Trump's rage but I am concerned about those who follow Trump, especially on Twitter, who will be convinced that there was election fraud because all they will have heard is that Trump was ahead in all the polls.

Oh, well, there's nothing to be done about it now. Trump's lying to his cult is baked into the cake.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I thought his best moment was looking at the camera saying "I don't want to talk about Democrat or Republican families, I want to talk about American families - your family."

There is absolutely only one of those guys that even begins to meet the term "trustworthy".

A great message. A sentiment taken from Obama's 2004 DNC keynote speech. A call to times past, but still relevant today.

That was a hell of a speech. If you have never heard the speech or even have not heard it in a long time, strap yourself in and watch how it used to done in America.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?182718...keynote-speech

[Meadmaker]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

I thought his best moment was looking at the camera saying "I don't want to talk about Democrat or Republican families, I want to talk about American families - your family."

There is absolutely only one of those guys that even begins to meet the term "trustworthy".

To me, that was his worst moment, because it seemed scripted and contrived. It was a question that he prepared for, and had the canned answer all ready for it. He was obviously launching into a prepared speech, and Trump called him on it.

It's always so hard to say how the hypothetical undecided voter would see it, though. I can't put my head into a place of being inable to choose between Biden and Satan Trump.

ETA: I believe this was his response when the laptop first came up, right? Or I don't remember if he used the same theme twice.

[SezMe]

Who was that kid? I think he has promise.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Originally Posted by SezMe

Who was that kid? I think he has promise.

Just a skinny kid with a funny name who believes that America has a place for him too.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by Delvo

I asked recently what the basis for this description was, because, particularly given how much it gets repeated now (by right-wingers who think it sounds bad), it sounded like just a slogan. The answer I got is quoted below because it included links to sites where you can look more closely at the original data if you want.

It turns out to be the outcome of actually checking how everybody voted on every bill and adding the numbers up (and was apparently originally put out by a lefty group as an endorsement). Unfortunately, it does seem rather largely based on symbolic-gesture bills rather than bills that would actually make life here better or worse. But it's enough to show that the claim that as a Senator she was generally pretty lefty is a reasonable assessment, not just arbitrarily made up and not as absurd as it sounds now.

Fair enough.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

To me, that was his worst moment, because it seemed scripted and contrived. It was a question that he prepared for, and had the canned answer all ready for it. He was obviously launching into a prepared speech, and Trump called him on it.

It's always so hard to say how the hypothetical undecided voter would see it, though. I can't put my head into a place of being inable to choose between Biden and Satan Trump.

ETA: I believe this was his response when the laptop first came up, right? Or I don't remember if he used the same theme twice.

But this has been Biden's message for a long time. That, unlike Trump who does nothing but divide Americans along party lines, he want to unite and be a president for all Americans. It wasn't scripted or contrived.

[Trebuchet]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

So I'm watching Democracy Now and the issue of the commutations was covered. How many sentences is Trump bragging he commuted?

Well it turns out during the Obama/Biden administration they commuted thousands! Thousands! So I looked it up. Turns out it was true.

COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Holy cow! I didn't know this. Obama never bragged about this.

Obummer and Biden were soft on crime! Eleventy!

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by newyorkguy

Why I didn't bother watching the debate for more than a minute or two. As explained By David Leonhardt of the New York Times:


Mrs. newyorkguy and myself will be early voting this Saturday. For Joe Biden.

I'd take the opposite tack to Leonhardt in that it is a typical debate. The right have been lying about the policy positions, and their outcomes, of the left and centre for the last forty years and more.

The only difference between Trump and Ray-Gun or Shrub is that his lies are so obvious that they're demolished immediately.

[Delvo]

If somebody was able to get Trump to be less belligerent & interrupty this time, why couldn't they do something about his awkward forearm-flapping with the hands & wrists stuck in that weird shadow-puppet-butterfly pose?

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Delvo

If somebody was able to get Trump to be less belligerent & interrupty this time, why couldn't they do something about his awkward forearm-flapping with the hands & wrists stuck in that weird shadow-puppet-butterfly pose?

Whadda want? Miracles?

[rdaneel]

edit. Oops wrong thread.

[bignickel]

2 people I know who watched the debate this time around said that Biden came off as senile. I didn't bother watching the debate live, but checked out ransom sections of the debate on the youtube (which has the whole thing).
I don't know what debate they watched: Biden seemed fine to me throughout the entire thing, no matter what I jumped to. Now, since he had chosen to actually give numerical information, like percentages, dollar amounts, etc, that meant that he had to actually remember, in real time, this stuff. Since El Trumpo didn't bother, he didn't have to bother pausing to remember anything.
Is the sight of a older man trying to remember facts and figures during a live debate the same one as senility? That's not a notion that I've ever entertained.
Biden didn't have to hit one out of the park; he just had to not strike out. Randomly zipping through the debate, I didn't see him strike out.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by bignickel

2 people I know who watched the debate this time around said that Biden came off as senile. I didn't bother watching the debate live, but checked out ransom sections of the debate on the youtube (which has the whole thing).
I don't know what debate they watched: Biden seemed fine to me throughout the entire thing, no matter what I jumped to. Now, since he had chosen to actually give numerical information, like percentages, dollar amounts, etc, that meant that he had to actually remember, in real time, this stuff. Since El Trumpo didn't bother, he didn't have to bother pausing to remember anything.
Is the sight of a older man trying to remember facts and figures during a live debate the same one as senility? That's not a notion that I've ever entertained.
Biden didn't have to hit one out of the park; he just had to not strike out. Randomly zipping through the debate, I didn't see him strike out.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they're Trump supporters. Amirite?

[bignickel]

Surprisingly not. One of them occasional goes on about Trumps latest stupidly. But also thinks “they’re all the same” when you get down to it. I said “so something joe said in 1977 is equal to the last 5 years of insanity from trump?” I like to remind what Asimov said about “More wrong than both of them put together”.