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Tags 2020 elections , joe biden , presidential candidates

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Old 2nd November 2020, 11:57 AM   #3561
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Granted I'm just a single data-point, but ...

By all financial/job security measures I am (quite) better off than I was four years ago, however I see that as being in spite of Trump and not because of him. And I see the worse off condition of the nation as a whole. So even though I might be better off now (or at least strongly feel I am), there was zero hesitation when I cast my early ballot against Trump. I can't believe I'm the only person to be in that position ; time will tell how many of us there are, I guess.
I am in exactly your position. But there are still others who are better off and don't look at or care much about the bigger picture. As is their right. That's the larger point here, I think: That, at the end of the day, each person has their own feelings and priorities and that's the basis of how they (figuratively) pull the lever come votin' time.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 11:58 AM   #3562
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What straw?
This fiction.
Quote:
A: "I feel like I'm better off now than I was 4 years ago."

B: "But you aren't better off! Look at the political violence in this country! Look at the fact that Trump ignores science! No way you are better off, you just feel that way."

A: "Uh . . . yeah, I do feel that way because I'm making more money AND I get to work from home, my 401k is better than it's ever been, my taxes are lower, I got a bunch of free money, I'm spending more time with the kids . . . I'm definitely happier than I was.
I haven't been affected by political violence and I don't care what Trump says, I follow the science for me and my family."

B: "Nuh-uh! You just don't know how bad you have it.
I woudn't hope to challenge a Trump voter's thougth processes; my original point was that there are more criteria to being better off than just monetary gain. I made no attempt to change any shallow views of what determines being "better off" but rather attempted to demonstrate that the country as a whole was not better off due to Trump's lack of leadership.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:00 PM   #3563
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But are the liberals triggered? Then the country is better off...
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:01 PM   #3564
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No. In your mind )
Nope, not in my mind. Just because a person doesn't care about needless death due to the abysmal pandemic response, doesn't mean they didn't occur.

As one example.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:02 PM   #3565
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Nope, not in my mind. Just because a person doesn't care about needless death due to the abysmal pandemic response, doesn't mean they didn't occur.

As one example.
They are willing to go out, get Covid, and die just to support Trump. I don't think needless death matters to these people.

I am optimistic that the majority of Americans do care though.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:03 PM   #3566
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Granted I'm just a single data-point, but ...

By all financial/job security measures I am (quite) better off than I was four years ago, however I see that as being in spite of Trump and not because of him. And I see the worse off condition of the nation as a whole. So even though I might be better off now (or at least strongly feel I am), there was zero hesitation when I cast my early ballot against Trump. I can't believe I'm the only person to be in that position ; time will tell how many of us there are, I guess.

I received a promotion and a raise earlier this year, and the company I work for has been making and selling huge amount of product.
We make and sell cleaning chemicals and disinfectants, so we just might be an outlier.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:05 PM   #3567
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
This fiction.

I woudn't hope to challenge a Trump voter's thougth processes; my original point was that there are more criteria to being better off than just monetary gain.
In your opinion. And you vote according to that opinion. Others think differently and vote accordingly. That's the larger point that you seem to be missing.

Quote:
I made no attempt to change any shallow views of what determines being "better off" but rather attempted to demonstrate that the country as a whole was not better off due to Trump's lack of leadership.
Even that, whether or not the country as a whole is better or worse off, is a matter of opinion. Plenty of room for people to disagree there depending on their own personal worldview and priorities.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:06 PM   #3568
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Nope, not in my mind. Just because a person doesn't care about needless death due to the abysmal pandemic response, doesn't mean they didn't occur.

As one example.
OK, but you said it yourself: They don't care about that when it comes to assessing whether or not they themselves are better off. They may not care when it comes to voting. You and I may disagree with them entirely but that doesn't make their feelings (or their vote) go away.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:16 PM   #3569
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
In your opinion. And you vote according to that opinion. Others think differently and vote accordingly. That's the larger point that you seem to be missing.
I'm just using this quote as a proxy for what I see as the same assumption several of you are making. The point of being better off was brought up as an effort to ignore the more accurate polls while predicting the election. Whether or not a slight majority are actually better off or only feel better off really doesn't matter in this situation because the majority isn't voting for Trump either way.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:26 PM   #3570
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I was speaking to the idea of an "Average Person" being thrown around, which often reads like an imaginative fiction invented to "prove" a poster's point, rather than an accurate characterization.

IOW, I was agreeing with your assessment.
I didn't respond to you. I was dovetailing a quippy line onto someone else's thoughts.

Go pick a fight with someone else, please.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:29 PM   #3571
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Here is, I think, the monkey wrench in all of this that explains why we talking around each other to some degree.

The "average" voter (in as much as such a thing exists) doesn't put nearly anywhere near this much logical thought into who they are voting for. It's a visceral, emotional, gut decision that they then rationalize reasons on top of to justify.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:52 PM   #3572
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here is, I think, the monkey wrench in all of this that explains why we talking around each other to some degree.



The "average" voter (in as much as such a thing exists) doesn't put nearly anywhere near this much logical thought into who they are voting for. It's a visceral, emotional, gut decision that they then rationalize reasons on top of to justify.
Yeah.

Now someone is going to stamp their feet and insist "facts exist" and we'll play again.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:54 PM   #3573
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Well yeah but emotional thinking used to be something people did... some of the time and rarely in the "Facts as concept just no longer exist" level they are now.

There's a huge valley between the peaks of "I don't understand why aren't voters acting like Vulcan Robots and making all their decisions via machine coded flow charts" and "LOL facts don't exist whatcha gonna do about it?"
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:54 PM   #3574
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I didn't respond to you. I was dovetailing a quippy line onto someone else's thoughts.

Go pick a fight with someone else, please.
Sorry, not picking a fight.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 12:59 PM   #3575
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post

Even that, whether or not the country as a whole is better or worse off, is a matter of opinion. Plenty of room for people to disagree there depending on their own personal worldview and priorities.
I suppose that if you're not sick or dead from COVID, your worldview is that you're better off than those who are. This ignores the objective fact that all this sickness and death and such have socio-economic costs to all citizens.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 01:08 PM   #3576
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
His fee-fees of course. Those have nothing to to with his cirrhosis however.



My response was to correct the notion that being "better off" means more than just a bit of change in your pocket. I wouldn't hope to change Trump voter's minds.
Nobody was disputing what "better off" means. I am, however, disputing that "better off" is at all relevant to how voters are gonna vote. What's relevant to how they're gonna vote is their perception of better off. Your focus on whether or not their perception is correct is entirely beside the point of how their perception will influence their vote.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 01:40 PM   #3577
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This is not a dichotomy (actually being better off or just feeling better off) but a trichotomy: actually being, feeling, and answering on surveys.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 01:48 PM   #3578
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I suppose that if you're not sick or dead from COVID, your worldview is that you're better off than those who are. This ignores the objective fact that all this sickness and death and such have socio-economic costs to all citizens.
Eh . . . if humans were all good little robots, programmed to value and judge things according to some universal "right thought" algorithm, you might have a point. For better or worse, depending on your point of view, we are not robots.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 02:48 PM   #3579
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Eh . . . if humans were all good little robots, programmed to value and judge things according to some universal "right thought" algorithm, you might have a point. For better or worse, depending on your point of view, we are not robots.
Not my argument.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 02:52 PM   #3580
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Not my argument.
It kind of is your argument, though.

You are saying that someone who feels better off right now is wrongly ignoring
the big problems with the pandemic response, the political violence and other problems that make the country as a whole worse off, right?

If so, then it seems you expect everyone to think the way you do. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people do not think the way you do, whether you think they are right or not.
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Old 2nd November 2020, 02:55 PM   #3581
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Joe "30330"

2020 666 = 3.0330
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Old 2nd November 2020, 02:56 PM   #3582
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It kind of is your argument, though.
No it isn't.


Mod InfoThread continues here.
Posted By:zooterkin

Last edited by zooterkin; 3rd November 2020 at 09:51 AM.
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