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Tags ethnic cleansing , Sudan incidents , Sudan issues , US-Sudan relations

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Old 27th March 2004, 10:17 AM   #41
aerocontrols
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I hope you folks can resolve the issue of the factory bombing, truly I do.


Meanwhile, 1000 people per week...
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Old 27th March 2004, 10:28 AM   #42
zenith-nadir
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From: Transcript: Wednesday's 9/11 Commission Hearings

RICHARD CLARKE, FORMER NATIONAL COORDINATOR FOR COUNTERTERRORISM FOR NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL


Quote:
But when you sometimes do that, you get into trouble. President Clinton got into a lot of trouble, a lot of criticism for blowing up a chemical plant in Sudan. To this day there are a lot of people who believe that it was not related to a terrorist group, not related to chemical weapons. They're wrong, by the way.

Clarke, Allbright, Hurley, Zelikow all say the plant in Sudan was connected to Bin Laden and chemical weapons. Under oath.

Who should I believe? Them or conspiracy theorists?
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Old 27th March 2004, 12:13 PM   #43
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Before I answer that question you must put on this hat I made from tinfoil..............................
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Old 27th March 2004, 12:25 PM   #44
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I don't really think like that.
I was trying for Irony. You should have have noticed the clearly deliberate milsspeeling clue "assinate". What I was trying to point out is that there has been a lot of "ending the massacre of innocent civilians by the evil Saddam" post Iraq invasion justification.

The UN has been spectacularly unsuccessful (batting 0.000) in stopping genocide. Rwanda, Iraq, Cambodia, Sudan.
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Old 27th March 2004, 01:09 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by zenith-nadir
From: Transcript: Wednesday's 9/11 Commission Hearings

RICHARD CLARKE, FORMER NATIONAL COORDINATOR FOR COUNTERTERRORISM FOR NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL





Clarke, Allbright, Hurley, Zelikow all say the plant in Sudan was connected to Bin Laden and chemical weapons. Under oath.

Who should I believe? Them or conspiracy theorists?

Actually, Clarke says that the plant was a joint Iraqi-Al Qaeda WMD production facility. It's in his book.

Of course he could be wrong or lying. Or he could be right about parts and wrong or lying about other parts.
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Old 27th March 2004, 01:40 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by ceptimus
No. But I find it telling that the USA did not accept the offer of the Sudanese government to allow such analysis teams to be sent in soon after the attack. And they have had over five years to do this now. Why the delay?
That's familiar. I seem to remember some rather similar logic a bit more than a year ago. Something about why would Saddam impede inspections if there were nothing to hide.

We could trade circumstantial speculations all month, but as Aerocontrols rightly points out, there is a problem now.
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Old 27th March 2004, 01:41 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by aerocontrols
Actually, Clarke says that the plant was a joint Iraqi-Al Qaeda WMD production facility. It's in his book. Of course he could be wrong or lying. Or he could be right about parts and wrong or lying about other parts.
If the plant wasn't connected to Bin Laden it would not have even been on the radar screen, so I find it easier to believe now that Bin Laden was connected in some way and that is why the factory originally became of interest.







Anyhow, ...back to the original topic....



Meanwhile in Sudan, March 25, 2004;
Quote:
It is, according to one UN official, the greatest humanitarian crisis in the world right now. Some 810,000 African tribes- people in the Darfur region of western Sudan have fled their homes. They're trying to escape what may be a campaign of ethnic cleansing by Arab militias, which are apparently backed by Sudan's government. They're struggling through blazing days and frigid nights in hilly terrain at the edge of the Sahara.

Meanwhile at the UN Security Council. Friday, 26 March, 2004;
Quote:
China, Russia, France, Angola, Chile, Pakistan, Spain, Algeria, Benin, Brazil, Philippines vote for an Algerian-sponsored-resolution condemning the killing of the spiritual leader of Palestinian militant group Hamas but refuse to name Hamas and it's attacks in the resolution.


Meanwhile in Kofi Annan's office Friday, 26 March, 2004 ;
Quote:
- The United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has said he could and should have done more to stop the genocide in Rwanda 10 years ago. The international community is guilty of sins of omission," Mr Annan said. Mr Annan announced he was backing a call from the Rwandan government for the world to observe a minute of silence to remember the victims and resolve to prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again.


HELLO? KOFI?... After you're done chasing jews maybe you and the Security Council could look into Sudan...remember the " resolve to prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again crap?"
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Old 27th March 2004, 08:14 PM   #48
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When I think of U.S. intervention I immediately think of Mogadeshu. That was nasty. Is it just me--and I'm honestly trying not to play the race card--but somebody tell me this is not a factor? I mean the U.S. did eventually stop Molosevic in the Balkans. This sh*t in Africa has been going on a long long time.

If the UN and the International community "had a pair" perhaps something could be done maybe. Isn't that why the UN was created? Me personally, I don't think this sh*t will ever stop.

It's like when I was little and used to see those commercials that air "for just a dollar a day this child can be fed and medicine and ..."blah blah blah. It just never ends. All the monetary aid goes to these warlords and corrupt idiots instead of going to the people who need it.
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Old 3rd April 2004, 04:11 AM   #49
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Well it's nice to see the urgency at the U.N. over the situation in Sudan. Two weeks have passed and here is the 'emergency' reponse by the U.N.

U.N.: Sudan conflict 'ethnic cleansing'
Quote:
UNITED NATIONS, April 2 (UPI) -- A senior U.N. humanitarian official said Friday a coordinated, "scorched-earth" campaign of ethnic cleansing is taking place in Darfur, Sudan.

However, Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs Jan Egeland, who is also the emergency relief coordinator, stopped short of calling the ethnic cleansing in Sudan's western region genocide.

Before briefing reporters at U.N. headquarters he briefed the Security Council. The panel of 15 then called for a cease-fire to the conflict engulfing Darfur.

"We have now seen an organized campaign being undertaken of forced depopulation of entire areas," he said, adding he could find no other words than ethnic cleansing to describe what has been happening.

Egeland said field staff from U.N. agencies and non-governmental organizations were receiving credible reports almost daily about "widespread atrocities and grave violations of human rights" of civilians.

U.N. agencies estimate some 750,000 Sudanese have become internally displaced in Darfur since fighting erupted early last year between the Sudanese government, allied militias and rebel groups. Another 110,000 people have fled into neighboring Chad.
What has the U.N. done since the 'cleansing" began in Sudan on March 25th 2004? N-O-T-H-I-N-G except try to pass a resolution against Israel, call for a ceasfire and R-E-F-U-S-E to A-D-M-I-T the ethnic cleansing in Sudan's western region is "genocide'. No Security Council Resolutions, no special meetings in the General Assembly....By the time the U.N. passes a resolution or gets off it's ass the Sudanese effected will be a pile of baking skulls in the hot African sun.Your United Nations at work.....
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Old 3rd April 2004, 04:33 AM   #50
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This has been gonig on for years, and you would think it was the only example of war and terror going on in the world at the moment. It is not new, it has been going on for years, there are other disasters in progress right now. Why the sudden interest?
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Old 3rd April 2004, 04:56 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
This has been gonig on for years, and you would think it was the only example of war and terror going on in the world at the moment. It is not new, it has been going on for years, there are other disasters in progress right now. Why the sudden interest?
I have no sudden interest, I am appauled that the United nations is showing it's true colors and no one seems to see it. Here we have an act of genocide and ethnic cleansing like Africa hasn't seen in decades, and the U.N. even admits it.

So for the past two weeks of ethnic cleansing in Sudan what are the United Nation's A-C-T-I-O-N-S? They half-heartedly say, "geeze guys can you stop fighting already" and spend the rest of the SAME week arguing over a Security Council Resolution against Israel for killing Hamas leader Sheik Yassin.

What is the U.N. for? To protect human beings from genocide and ethnic cleansing? or to protect leaders of terror groups? Is any of this hypocrisy starting to sink in ?


(edited to add)

Where is your outrage a_u_p, how about Demon?, the fool?, Cleopatra? Or is your outrage for killing only reserved for palestinians because jooooze...er..zionists are involved?
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Old 3rd April 2004, 06:49 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
This has been gonig on for years, and you would think it was the only example of war and terror going on in the world at the moment. It is not new, it has been going on for years, there are other disasters in progress right now. Why the sudden interest?
Wearing my tinfoil hat, I'd say the sudden interest is an indication that the USA plans to blow the cr*p out of the place in twelve to eighteen months. I thought, in an unscientific way, that I noticed a similar pattern with coverage of the treatment of women in Afghanistan. It became an issue well before S11, but after it was becoming clear that the US government and the Taliban were going to disagree about how to divide up the oil pipeline pie. Then again it could have been coincidence and you can cook up all kinds of conspiracy theories with hindsight.

But whatever you think about that particular issue, a lot of people said two years ago that if the USA was making a genuine effort to get at the causes of terrorism they would be doing something about Sudan. The Sudanese government, last I heard, supported terrorist groups from all over the shop as well as committing genocide.
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Old 3rd April 2004, 07:06 AM   #53
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March 19, 2004 - A senior U.N. official said Friday that fighting in western Sudan has intensified in recent weeks, accusing Arab militia of systematically attacking villages and raping women.

March 19, 2004 - Sudan has accused a senior UN official of fabricating allegations of human rights abuses in the troubled western province of Darfur. The Humanitarian Affairs Ministry said claims by Mukesh Kapila were "a heap of lies", Sudanese radio reported.

March 22, 2004 - Sudanese pro-government militias have attacked a town in the western Darfur region, executing hundreds of people.

March 22, 2004 - Israel kills Hamas founder and spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.

March 25th 2004 - Vicious ethnic cleansing is unfolding in the southeastern fringes of the Sahara Desert. It's a campaign of murder, rape and pillage by Sudan's Arab rulers that has forced 700,000 black African Sudanese to flee their villages.

March 26th 2004 - The United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan has said he could and should have done more to stop the genocide in Rwanda 10 years ago. At a memorial conference at the UN, Mr Annan said he realised he personally could have done more to rally support for international efforts to stop it. The genocide - in which some 800,000 people died - occurred when Mr Annan was head of UN peacekeeping forces

March 26th 2004 - The US has vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution condemning the killing of the spiritual leader of Palestinian militant group Hamas. Eleven members approved the resolution.



14 days after the crisis in Sudan was reported by the senior U.N. official Mukesh Kapila on March 19, 2004...



April 2nd 2004 - The Acting UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Bertrand Ramcharan, said he was alarmed about the human rights situation, calling for all parties to stop the violence immediately.

April 2nd 2004 - UNHCR said it is now looking for sites to set up more camps inside Chad as demand is outstripping the facilities currently available.

April 2nd 2004 - The UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), meanwhile, announced it has now transferred more than 20,000 people away from their temporary shelters along the border zone to five safer camps in Chad's interior.

April 2nd 2004 - Press statement by Security Council President Gunter Pleuger; "The members have expressed their deep concern about the massive humanitarian crisis. Council members call on the parties concerned to fully cooperate in order to address the grave situation prevailing in this region, to ensure the protection of civilians, and to facilitate humanitarian access to the affected population."






So in four days there was a U.N. Security Council Resolution tabled, debated, voted on and vetoed over the killing of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, (22-26 March).

On March 26th 2004 Secretary General Kofi Annan admitted he could and should have done more to stop the genocide in Rwanda 10 years ago and said he realised he personally could have done more to rally support for international efforts to stop it.

Two weeks pass, the fighting in Sudan continues, nearly 1,000,000 people have fled their homes. The United Nations passes no resolutions, there are no special General Assembly or Security Council meetings, in fact the UN is more interested with refugee comfort in Chad than with the ethnic cleansing causing it in Sudan!


So you tell me how the wheels at the UN can turn so quickly and decisively over Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and has yet to introduce a S-I-N-G-L-E resolution over the ethnic cleansing and genocide by Sudan?
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Old 3rd April 2004, 07:17 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
This has been gonig on for years, and you would think it was the only example of war and terror going on in the world at the moment. It is not new, it has been going on for years, there are other disasters in progress right now. Why the sudden interest?
Somebody found a way to blame the jews for it? That usually sparks the world's interest in a second.
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Old 3rd April 2004, 07:18 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Somebody found a way to blame the jews for it? That usually sparks the world's interest in a second.
See my post above yours to confirm that fact of life.


(edited to add)

The question I am asking is look at the U.N.'s actions and ask yourself what's more important to the UN, Sheik Yassin, father of the suicide bombers or 800,000 Sudanese men, women and children fleeing ethnic cleasing and genocide?
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Old 3rd April 2004, 07:37 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by zenith-nadir
See my post above yours to confirm that fact of life.


(edited to add)

The question I am asking is look at the U.N.'s actions and ask yourself what's more important to the UN, Sheik Yassin, father of the suicide bombers or 800,000 Sudanese men, women and children fleeing ethnic cleasing and genocide?
Given that they have been working at several disasters in progress around the world for many years, this one included, with varying degrees of committment from the members, I would say your interpretation of the issue is merely one of ignorance, that is, if I didn't read an opinion piece on it in my favourite rag, then it didn't happen.
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Old 3rd April 2004, 09:47 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
Given that they have been working at several disasters in progress around the world for many years, this one included, with varying degrees of committment from the members, I would say your interpretation of the issue is merely one of ignorance, that is, if I didn't read an opinion piece on it in my favourite rag, then it didn't happen.
Well that is your opinion, meanwhile as 800,000 Sudanese men, women and children are ethnically cleansed through genocide by the government of Sudan feel free to continue to make your lame excuses for the Sudanese government and the United Nations....
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Old 3rd April 2004, 11:29 AM   #58
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from: U.N. Urges Peace Efforts in Sudan - Sat Apr 3, 6:27 AM ET
Quote:
UNITED NATIONS - Thousands of people are being driven from their homes in Sudan's western Darfur region in an "ethnic cleansing," a U.N. official said Friday, calling it "one of the worst humanitarian crises."

The conflict is "one of the world's worst humanitarian crises, which unfortunately also happens to be one of the most forgotten and neglected humanitarian crises," Egeland said.

Most of the attacks have been committed by a militia group, reportedly with government participation including aerial bombardment, Egeland said, adding that the government was doing little to stop it. "Therefore, it seems that it's being condoned," he said.

Now a_u_p's 'opinion' about it;
Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
Given that they have been working at several disasters in progress around the world for many years, this one included, with varying degrees of committment from the members, I would say your interpretation of the issue is merely one of ignorance, that is, if I didn't read an opinion piece on it in my favourite rag, then it didn't happen.
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Old 3rd April 2004, 03:30 PM   #59
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Look ZN, can we get one thing perfectly clear here, the UN did not cause this problem.

If the US is so concerned about it, why doesn't it intervene? The disaster is every bit as bad as anything Saddam did.

Meanwhile, how about reporting on some of the other crises in progress around the world, and how you think it is so terrible the UN does nothing about them.
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Old 3rd April 2004, 04:07 PM   #60
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Would US intervention in this crisis without the UN's blessing be illegal, and unilateralist?
I'm all for it.
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Old 3rd April 2004, 04:38 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
Look ZN, can we get one thing perfectly clear here, the UN did not cause this problem.

If the US is so concerned about it, why doesn't it intervene? The disaster is every bit as bad as anything Saddam did.

Meanwhile, how about reporting on some of the other crises in progress around the world, and how you think it is so terrible the UN does nothing about them.
What other crisis is more important than this one?
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Old 3rd April 2004, 06:57 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft


What other crisis is more important than this one?
Aids in Africa?

I think a_u_p's gone off on one because of this:

Quote:
"We're too busy at the UN passing resolutions over assasinated terrorist leaders and walls to stop suicide bombers to worry about sill things like genocide"
and.

Quote:
HELLO? KOFI?... After you're done chasing jews maybe you and the Security Council could look into Sudan...remember the " resolve to prevent such a tragedy from ever happening again crap?
Most other people managed to ignore it as it is cynical and completely off topic (regardless of it's accuracy I hasten to add) *but* happens to broach on a_u_p's favourite subject.
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Old 4th April 2004, 04:18 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mycroft
What other crisis is more important than this one?
Chasing the joooooze is more important than 800,000 Sudanese men, women and children being slaughtered Mycroft
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Old 7th April 2004, 05:01 PM   #64
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This has been gonig on for years, and you would think it was the only example of war and terror going on in the world at the moment. It is not new, it has been going on for years, there are other disasters in progress right now. Why the sudden interest?

When I claimed you hate jews, I noted that you don't seem to care at all about atrocities committed by anybody except jews, while anything israel does throws you into epileptic fits.

You protested and said that you care and often criticize other evils. But now, when you are presented with the genocide of 800,000, your reply is to shrug and say "so what? It's being going on for years! Why the sudden interest?". Somehow, the israeli-Palestinian conflict has been "going on for years", too, but that hasn't stopped you ranting about it non-stop, has it?

It's not hard to imagine your reaction if israel had killed 800,000 Palestinians, Mr. "I am completely objective". Or your reaction if there was some way, however remote, indirect, or improbable, to link the massacre in Sudan to jews (and/or Americans)...
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Old 8th April 2004, 04:44 AM   #65
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Well it's now been 20 days since March 19th when the UN was made aware of the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Sudanese by a senior U.N. official. What has the UN done? N-O-T-H-I-N-G at all. In fact the hypocrisy never ends!

from: U.N. Chief Urges Watch Against Genocide - Wed Apr 7, 7:58 AM ET
Quote:
GENEVA - The world must stay alert for warning signs of future genocides to prevent a repeat of massacres like that in Rwanda, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Wednesday.

"The genocide in Rwanda should never have happened. But it did," Annan told the U.N. Human Rights Commission. The United Nations, governments and the media paid too little attention to "gathering signs of disaster" in 1994 in the central African nation, he said.
Your UN at work, , maybe the Sudanese refugees should kill a Hamas leader to get the world's and the UN's attention.
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Old 8th April 2004, 05:25 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Chasing the joooooze is more important than 800,000 Sudanese men, women and children being slaughtered Mycroft
In fact I wasn't thinking of Palestine at all, but it is one area that fits the bill.
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Old 10th April 2004, 03:57 AM   #67
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Since March 19th 2004, even after repeated admissions by Kofi Annan he personally failed to stop the genocide in Rwanda, the UN is unable to pass a single resolution condemning or committing forces to stop the genocide in Sudan. Ironically the government of Chad is more effective than the UN;


Sudan and rebels agree to cease-fire - April 9 2004
Quote:
KHARTOUM, Sudan, April 9 (UPI) -- Sudan and rebel groups in the western Darfur area have agreed to a 45-day cease fire so humanitarian aid can reach hundreds of thousands. The ceasefire agreement represents a breakthrough for Chad government mediators who spent a week trying to persuade and representatives of the rebel Sudan Liberation Army and Justice and Equality Movement to meet face-to-face, the International Regional Information Networks reported Friday.
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Old 10th April 2004, 03:59 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by zenith-nadir
Since March 19th 2004, even after repeated admissions by Kofi Annan he personally failed to stop the genocide in Rwanda, the UN is unable to pass a single resolution condemning or committing forces to stop the genocide in Sudan. Ironically the government of Chad is more effective than the UN;


Sudan and rebels agree to cease-fire - April 9 2004
(And yet the UN could draft, table, debate and vote on a Security Council resolution condemning Israel over the killing of the father of the suicide bombers in four days....my how the wheels of 'justice' turn at the UN... ).
Once again, the UN does not actually cause these problems.
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Old 10th April 2004, 04:03 AM   #69
zenith-nadir
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
Once again, the UN does not actually cause these problems.
Thanks for the update Albert Einstein, F.Y.I. the UN's job is to prevent these kinds of problems.
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Old 10th April 2004, 05:50 PM   #70
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Told you.
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Old 24th April 2004, 06:48 AM   #71
zenith-nadir
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Ahhhhhh, the hypocrisy....

from: Sudan Minister Hails U.N. Rights Vote - Sat Apr 24 2004, 3:27 AM ET
Quote:
KHARTOUM, Sudan - Foreign Minister Mustafa Osman Ismail hailed a U.N. decision not to condemn his government for alleged rights abuses in pursuit of rebels in western Sudan, saying it was a victory against a "vicious" campaign.

But in a rare admission about the rebellion in Darfur province, Ismail said Friday that the government may be overlooking the conduct of the militias as they were helping it fight the rebels.

Earlier Friday, the U.N. Human Rights Commission in Geneva voted to express concern about the overall situation in Darfur, but it stopped short of formally condemning Sudan.

The U.S. envoy to the commission, Richard Williamson, promptly said he would seek an emergency session of the body to hold Sudan to account for what has happened in Darfur, where the government and allied militia have been accused of waging a campaign of ethnic cleansing and village destruction.
800,000 people fleeing ethnic cleansing in Sudan is not condemnable by the UN, but killing Sheik Yassin, granfather of the suicide bombers, is. Put that in your pipe and smoke it...
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Old 4th May 2004, 10:16 AM   #72
zenith-nadir
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Just when you thought the U.N. couldn't be more hypocritical...

from: U.S. Walks Out as Sudan Elected to U.N. Rights Body - Tue May 4, 2004 12:15 PM ET
Quote:
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Sudan won an uncontested election Tuesday to the United Nations' main human rights watchdog, prompting the United States to walk out because of alleged ethnic cleansing in the country's Darfur region.

"The United States will not participate in this absurdity," Siv said. "Our delegation will absent itself from the meeting rather than lend support to Sudan's candidacy," he said before briefly walking out of council chambers.
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Old 4th May 2004, 12:54 PM   #73
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UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Sudan won an uncontested election Tuesday to the United Nations' main human rights watchdog, prompting the United States to walk out because of alleged ethnic cleansing in the country's Darfur region.

"The United States will not participate in this absurdity," Siv said. "Our delegation will absent itself from the meeting rather than lend support to Sudan's candidacy," he said before briefly walking out of council chambers.


I suggest that people keep this in mind the next time they hear that "The UN human rights watchdog gorup condemned israel", and take that condemnation for what it is morally worth, namely, nothing at all.
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Old 7th May 2004, 12:25 PM   #74
aerocontrols
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DARFUR DESTROYED

I see that now, instead of talking about Clinton's bombing of a chemical factory, we've moved on to the most virulent strain of JREF MB infection, the Israel-Palestine issue. I guess every thread eventually ends up there.

MattJ
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Old 7th May 2004, 12:33 PM   #75
aerocontrols
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Quote:
Originally posted by a_unique_person
The UN has tried to do something, it is up to it's members to do it. If they aren't interested, then it is powerless. It was once a democracy.
That's a pretty interesting statement, coming from you. Can I offer you a slight modification and see if you think it's more accurate?


Quote:
Originally posted by a_similar_person
Some members of the UN have tried to do something. It is up to the UN member States to approve action. If one permanent member of the Security Council isn't interested, then the UN is powerless. Sudan was once a democracy.
There. That looks better. I've made some parts more specific (you use pronouns a lot - can cause some confusion) and I've altered your meaning slightly.

MattJ
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