Why Aren't Laptop Computers Grounded?

Wowbagger · 17th January 2010, 07:43 PM

It is the winter, and every time I have touched my laptop computer, this weekend, I got a spark. So, as a temporary measure, I started using my antistatic wristband to ground the machine. And, so far: No more sparks.

But, now the question comes up: Why don't these things have grounding plugs, to begin with?!

kuroyume0161 · 17th January 2010, 07:45 PM

Mine does. Get one that does. :P

Wowbagger · 17th January 2010, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

Mine does. Get one that does. :P

Perhaps I should add the word "Most" to the title. Because most of the laptops, tablets, and netbooks I have seen do not have them.

But, why?!!! Why can't the third prong be standard on these things?

ElMondoHummus · 17th January 2010, 08:33 PM

You can almost certainly order an upgraded power supply for your laptop that'll be 3 pronged. But, I have had such laptops for years now, and in the middle of winter when the air's dry enough, I still used to get shocked. Pretty damn badly too. That didn't stop until I got a humidifier for my condo. My point is that a grounded power supply for your laptop might not be a cure for the problem.

kuroyume0161 · 17th January 2010, 08:50 PM

Truly. Humidification to reduce dryness will reduce static discharges. Where I live it gets close to desert-dry at times (esp. in Winter) and I employ a humidifier to stave off drying of my guitars (wood). This also has the benefit of reducing static electricity. Nonetheless, I'd go for that and a grounded (three-prong) plug power-supply.

And, I'll admit, that my laptop is not a 'store bought' one. It is one of those 'order to your specs' types (Nobilis). I payed more but it has nice specs - and a grounded plug.

RecoveringYuppy · 17th January 2010, 09:02 PM

Are you wearing the grounding strap or did you attach it to the laptop? Attaching it to the laptop doesn't make much sense. It would generally be you building up the static charge not your laptop (your laptop isn't scuffing it's shoes across the carpet is it?). And having the laptop attached to a ground wouldn't stop the spark from occurring. The static charge you build up "wants" to reach ground in order to discharge.

And laptops are designed to operate unplugged so a ground connection isn't expected to be available most of the time anyway, they have to be engineered to assume one isn't available. And it's not unusual for low voltage equipment to not require a ground connection.

And on those three pronged connections the grounding doesn't usually extend beyong the transformer anyway.

Wowbagger · 17th January 2010, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

Truly. Humidification to reduce dryness will reduce static discharges.

Perhaps. But, I also have a couple of desktop machines, all with grounded plugs, and they don't give me a spark.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Are you wearing the grounding strap or did you attach it to the laptop? Attaching it to the laptop doesn't make much sense. It would generally be you building up the static charge not your laptop (your laptop isn't scuffing it's shoes across the carpet is it?).

It is attached to the laptop.

But, I think it does build up static in some of the places I put it.

Or, maybe it's got a loose wire in it.

Something to look into....

RecoveringYuppy · 17th January 2010, 09:57 PM

A loose wire won't build up a static charge. A loose wire would lead to a continuous shock except I don't think there are any voltages in a laptop computer that would shock a human.

And your reasoning is backward on the affect of grounding and static discharge. You can discharge most fully, greatest shock, in to a grounded object. If you discharge in to some isolated, ungrounded, object you have the potential for only partially discharging, lower shock.

Fnord · 17th January 2010, 10:18 PM

Your laptop may already be grounded, but you may not!

It is not the 'grounding' that matters in drawing a spark, it is the difference in electrical potential between yourself and the laptop. A grounded device may have a greater potential difference from an ungrounded object (or person) than any two ungrounded objects have with each other. Similarly, you stand a greater chance of drawing a spark from a grounded water faucet than from the glass of water sitting on the table.

HOWEVER, if one end of your wrist strap is attached to the laptop's 'ground' and you pick up the other end before touching the laptop, you are not likely to draw a spark at all, since the potential difference will be bled off through the strap. And if both the laptop and the strap are actually 'grounded' to the water pipe (or the third-wire ground pin in an electrical outlet), you will not draw a spark from either the laptop or the faucet.

Wrist straps and third-wire ground pins act to equalize electrical potential between objects connected together.

arthwollipot · 17th January 2010, 10:27 PM

I have never been zapped by a laptop.

Wowbagger · 17th January 2010, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

A loose wire won't build up a static charge. A loose wire would lead to a continuous shock except I don't think there are any voltages in a laptop computer that would shock a human.

Perhaps the loose wire is not continuously loose. I wonder if there is an easy way to find out.

Or, maybe some other factor is causing it to build up static.

This machine was serviced about a year and a half ago for a shorted power switch inside the monitor. And, in September, the battery had to be replaced, because its original one wasn't holding a charge.

Would any of that be relevant?

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

And your reasoning is backward on the affect of grounding and static discharge. You can discharge most fully, greatest shock, in to a grounded object. If you discharge in to some isolated, ungrounded, object you have the potential for only partially discharging, lower shock.

Makes sense. Though, the grounding seems to help, anyway.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

And laptops are designed to operate unplugged so a ground connection isn't expected to be available most of the time anyway, they have to be engineered to assume one isn't available. And it's not unusual for low voltage equipment to not require a ground connection.

This, btw, at least answers the main question of the OP. (I meant to mention that, earlier.)

kuroyume0161 · 17th January 2010, 10:44 PM

Now I have to ask the unasked question: Are you rubbing your feet on a carpet repetitively before getting on your laptop?

I agree with the idea that this might be related to yourself (how people spark on door handles from static electricity, for instance) or even the environment (the table, chair, floor, etc.) where you have the laptop and create electrostatic sparks.

RecoveringYuppy · 17th January 2010, 10:49 PM

Even if there is a loose wire, I don't think the voltages in a laptop are going to shock a person. And there aren't many plausible ways a laptop sitting still could build up a static charge. Are you rubbing it's plastic parts against the carpet? A cat rubbing against it? It's far more likely the charge has built up on you.

The primary reasons for grounding in the A/C grid don't exist in low powered isolated devices. The main reasons for grounding: Lightning diversion; Providing a path for high voltage to dissipate in the event of a wiring failure; Preventing the isolation transformers in the grid from building up a high voltage relative to ground. Those issues don't exist in low voltage battery operated devices.

Wowbagger · 17th January 2010, 11:15 PM

The laptop is used in a variety of locations: On a wooden table (that might shift on the carpet, every now and then); on a soft ottoman-like thingy; sometimes directly on the carpet; rarely on the bed. (But I take special care not to smother the vents.)

Here's an experiment I might try:

1. "unground" the machine and have it sit someplace, untouched for a while.

2. Rub my feet on the carpet, with socks, in dry air

3. VERY IMPORTANT: Touch something that is grounded, such as a light switch, to release the static electricity. I would expect to get a spark, here. But, this is important, because of the next step:

4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark.

Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!!

Any recommendations for locations, in step #1?

Should the computer be on or off during this experiment? Would it make a difference?

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

Now I have to ask the unasked question: Are you rubbing your feet on a carpet repetitively before getting on your laptop?

Not intentionally. (At least not yet.)

CelticRose · 17th January 2010, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I have never been zapped by a laptop.

Neither have I, and I live in a desert.

BobTheDonkey · 18th January 2010, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

The laptop is used in a variety of locations: On a wooden table (that might shift on the carpet, every now and then); on a soft ottoman-like thingy; sometimes directly on the carpet; rarely on the bed. (But I take special care not to smother the vents.)

Here's an experiment I might try:

1. "unground" the machine and have it sit someplace, untouched for a while.

2. Rub my feet on the carpet, with socks, in dry air

3. VERY IMPORTANT: Touch something that is grounded, such as a light switch, to release the static electricity. I would expect to get a spark, here. But, this is important, because of the next step:

4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark.

Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!!

Any recommendations for locations, in step #1?

Should the computer be on or off during this experiment? Would it make a difference?

Not intentionally. (At least not yet.)

If the wooden table is polyurethaned, that's a pretty big ESD generator (as well as the ottoman, carpet, etc). The light switch itself isn't grounded - the screw holding the cover on may be...but the switch itself is usually plastic (for good reason - insulation). And even then, the screw head might be painted and therefore present less of a solid ground.

A "better" idea for grounding yourself in step 3 could be to insert the banana plug of your ESD wrist strap into the 3rd hole of your outlet (that's the round one people...)... Of course, I can in no way whatsoever actually advocate this. I just know that it's acceptable policy in the USAF to use the 3rd wire as a ground for ESD tabletops...

shadron · 18th January 2010, 01:43 AM

The laptop is grounded, if it is in good repair.

The third prong wire to the power brick grounds the brick's case, as required by electrical code for 115v AC circuits. The wires going to the computer will be two or three (perhaps more), and one of those will be double duty - it is both the common return for power and the ground. You might expect that there would be a separate ground like there was to the brick, but the voltage going from he brick to the laptop is all low voltage DC, and the code doesn't require a separate ground in that case.

The reason you got sparks in the first instance is that you grounded yourself to the computer and the static electricity drained by that path to ground. After you grounded yourself with the wrist strap, the static drained off there, and not longer when you touched the computer.

shadron · 18th January 2010, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark.

Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!!

If you do, then there is a wiring fault in your laptop, probably. If you should happen to get a tingling sensation, there is definitely something wrong.

BigAl · 18th January 2010, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by kuroyume0161

Now I have to ask the unasked question: Are you rubbing your feet on a carpet repetitively before getting on your laptop?

I agree with the idea that this might be related to yourself (how people spark on door handles from static electricity, for instance) or even the environment (the table, chair, floor, etc.) where you have the laptop and create electrostatic sparks.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't worry about a spark. You might contact the manufacturer's tech support to see what they say.

For a problem with a static-producing rug, a cheap spray bottle of anti-cling spray from the supermarket appplied to the rug will make the problem go away for a couple weeks. Reapply as necessary. I've seen this work in an office that had a killer static problem each winter.

Dancing David · 18th January 2010, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

It is the winter, and every time I have touched my laptop computer, this weekend, I got a spark. So, as a temporary measure, I started using my antistatic wristband to ground the machine. And, so far: No more sparks.

But, now the question comes up: Why don't these things have grounding plugs, to begin with?!

It should, but really the case should keep you from damaging the machine with a static spark.

Wowbagger · 18th January 2010, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

The light switch itself isn't grounded - the screw holding the cover on may be...but the switch itself is usually plastic (for good reason - insulation). And even then, the screw head might be painted and therefore present less of a solid ground.

Some of the screws on some of my light switches are not painted, and usually provide a good source for draining static electricity.

I don't seem to have any metal furnature.

MortFurd · 18th January 2010, 12:17 PM

1. If your laptop power supply has a three prong plug, it still does ZIP for grounding your laptop. The AC ground only goes as far as the power supply.
2. The low voltage DC side of your laptop power supply is galvanically separate from the AC side. This is a MUST so that if the power supply goes Tango Uniform you won't get zapped.
3. The third prong (ground) on the plug is NOT there to drain static electricity from the equipment. The ground prong is connected to the metal housing or frame of the equipment to provide a short circuit to ground should a "hot" wire somehow come loose inside the equipment. This will cause a circuit breaker or fuse to blow, but most importantly it will keep you from getting zapped.
4. If your laptop were properly grounded, you would be MORE likely to get a static zap than if it weren't. Grounding the equipment but not your self guarantees that one of you (the laptop) will be drained of static charge and that one of you (yourself) will not be drained. If there's no ground on the laptop, then it might be charged up as much as you are and thus REDUCE the static zap you could get.

To reduce static zap:
1. Wear either anti-static shoes or leather soled shoes.
2. Wear cotton or linen clothing, avoid synthetics and wool.
3. Use humidifier or ion source to make the air more conductive.
4. Use a grounding strap on your wrist.

realpaladin · 18th January 2010, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

The laptop is used in a variety of locations: On a wooden table (that might shift on the carpet, every now and then); on a soft ottoman-like thingy; sometimes directly on the carpet; rarely on the bed. (But I take special care not to smother the vents.)

Here's an experiment I might try:

1. "unground" the machine and have it sit someplace, untouched for a while.

2. Rub my feet on the carpet, with socks, in dry air

3. VERY IMPORTANT: Touch something that is grounded, such as a light switch, to release the static electricity. I would expect to get a spark, here. But, this is important, because of the next step:

4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark.

Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!!

Any recommendations for locations, in step #1?

Should the computer be on or off during this experiment? Would it make a difference?

Not intentionally. (At least not yet.)

Post the YouTube url please

stevea · 18th January 2010, 02:11 PM

This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads.

The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts.

Wowbagger · 18th January 2010, 09:53 PM

Funny thing is: I have tried all day to get a spark from my laptop in various circumstances and settings. I think I might have felt a relatively minor tingle early in the day, after walking normally on the carpet (no intentional scruffing the feet along with socks) and touching it without the grounding thing. But, barely. And, I haven't gotten anything else resembling a spark since.

And, no, I won't do the foot-scruffing right before touching it, because:
A. I already know that will work, just as reliably as touching the light switch screws. I only experimented with the steps I outlined above, and normal walking.
B. I don't want to risk (even if it is a tiny one) damaging the thing.

Originally Posted by realpaladin

Post the YouTube url please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A&#t=01m18s

(A nice, joyous song preceeds it.)

Originally Posted by stevea

This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads.

Which responses seemed particularly ignorant, to you?

Originally Posted by stevea

The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts.

Repeating what others had stated, in different words.... is addressing verbosity.... how exactly?

BobTheDonkey · 18th January 2010, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by stevea

This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads.

The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts.

Speaking of verbose ignorance...everyone* knows it's amperage, not voltage that does the damage.

Thousands of volts are of concern because of the amperage that it represents.

SO, being as the power brick for my laptop claims an output of 19V, 7.9A (DC) and a (relatively) small current of 300-500mA (that's approx 1/16 of the output current, btw) is enough to cause death in humans...your ignorance is showing

*ok, so, not really everyone...but I'd wager most of the people on this thread who have readily apparent backgrounds in electronics know this

kuroyume0161 · 18th January 2010, 10:28 PM

I'll just state that grounded plugs are just good. Might not apply here for static electricity but it is a good start to protect the laptop/power-supply against surges, spikes, and brownouts (UPSs designed to protect against this are better, of course). I'm definitely not an electrician or electrical engineer. I just pointed to possible solutions from the given information.

I'm more acclimated to guitar electronics where grounding is *very* important. On a guitar itself it just stops the tingling when touching metal parts and output hum but a faultily-grounded amp or sound system (monitors, mikes, PAs) could *kill* you. There are a few actual cases of this or close calls.

realpaladin · 19th January 2010, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A&#t=01m18s

What's with that? Why do my responses of late evoke muppet-memories in people?

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

Which responses seemed particularly ignorant, to you?

Ooooh, pick me! Pick me! Pick me!

commandlinegamer · 19th January 2010, 04:27 AM

There are high voltages present in laptops specifically to do with the LCD screen which may require several hundred volts, so don't go digging around inside if you don't know what you're doing.

Dancing David · 19th January 2010, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by stevea

This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads.

The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts.

wall wort?

RecoveringYuppy · 19th January 2010, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer

There are high voltages present in laptops specifically to do with the LCD screen which may require several hundred volts, so don't go digging around inside if you don't know what you're doing.

Can you provide a reference for that? When this thread started the display was the one component I didn't know the voltage for off the top of my head. On topic internet references were hard to find but most suggested 5V for an LED display (did you mean LED BTW? Similar low voltages for LCD but LCD isn't too common anymore is it)

Originally Posted by Dancing David

wall wort?

Wall wart. Nickname for the ugly transformers that plug in to outlets.

commandlinegamer · 19th January 2010, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy

Can you provide a reference for that? When this thread started the display was the one component I didn't know the voltage for off the top of my head.

The screen backlight may require between 500 and 700 VAC, supplied via an inverter. Finding a decent article seems to be problematic; this is a typical diy guide to replacing it (which I wouldn't recommend to the novice no matter how easy it looks):

http://www.pchub.com/uph/content/fq2..._inverter.html

RecoveringYuppy · 19th January 2010, 08:12 AM

Thanks. And apparently you really did mean LCD.

Checkmite · 19th January 2010, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by shadron

The reason you got sparks in the first instance is that you grounded yourself to the computer and the static electricity drained by that path to ground. After you grounded yourself with the wrist strap, the static drained off there, and not longer when you touched the computer.

This. When you build up some static on yourself, if you touch something and it "zaps" you, it's because the thing you touched is grounded.

technoextreme · 19th January 2010, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

Speaking of verbose ignorance...everyone* knows it's amperage, not voltage that does the damage.

*ok, so, not really everyone...but I'd wager most of the people on this thread who have readily apparent backgrounds in electronics know this

That saying is an example of ignorance trying to masqurede itself as knowledge.

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

SO, being as the power brick for my laptop claims an output of 19V, 7.9A (DC) and a (relatively) small current of 300-500mA (that's approx 1/16 of the output current, btw) is enough to cause death in humans...your ignorance is showing

Steva is right. You'd have to be an abject retard to kill yourself with that power supply. You would have to jam the wires into an open wound, be sopping wet, or jam the wires straight through to your heart. And the only way I'm certain that you could kill yourself with that power supply is the last one because a freaking hearing aide battery is capable of stopping your heart in that last scenario. Hell lets not even mention the fact that you picked the one frequency that I have never heard of anyone dying from besides from having their body parts vaporized due to heating. Your ignorance is burning so brightly I have to wear welding googles or I will go blind.

realpaladin · 19th January 2010, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

That saying is an example of ignorance trying to masqurede itself as knowledge.

Steva is right. You'd have to be an abject retard to kill yourself with that power supply. You would have to jam the wires into an open wound, be sopping wet, or jam the wires straight through to your heart. And the only way I'm certain that you could kill yourself with that power supply is the last one because a freaking hearing aide battery is capable of stopping your heart in that last scenario. Hell lets not even mention the fact that you picked the one frequency that I have never heard of anyone dying from besides from having their body parts vaporized due to heating. Your ignorance is burning so brightly I have to wear welding googles or I will go blind.

You could also get killed if you offend someone who will be using that powersupply to beat you to a bloody pulp... but that is neither here nor there...

I am more interested in Wowbaggers adventures.

MortFurd · 19th January 2010, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey

Speaking of verbose ignorance...everyone* knows it's amperage, not voltage that does the damage.

Thousands of volts are of concern because of the amperage that it represents.

SO, being as the power brick for my laptop claims an output of 19V, 7.9A (DC) and a (relatively) small current of 300-500mA (that's approx 1/16 of the output current, btw) is enough to cause death in humans...your ignorance is showing

*ok, so, not really everyone...but I'd wager most of the people on this thread who have readily apparent backgrounds in electronics know this

Given that skin resistance is usually in the thousands of ohms, your 19V powersupply will have a hard time killing you - UNLESS you do something spectacularly stupid so that the current flows through your blood and goes through your heart.

Face it, there's folks around who understand this stuff better than you.

The reason the thousands of volts involved in a static electricity discharge don't kill you is because a.) there's not enough electrons stored for there to be much current flow and b.) it doesn't typically go near your heart.

BobTheDonkey · 19th January 2010, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

That saying is an example of ignorance trying to masqurede itself as knowledge.

Steva is right. You'd have to be an abject retard to kill yourself with that power supply. You would have to jam the wires into an open wound, be sopping wet, or jam the wires straight through to your heart. And the only way I'm certain that you could kill yourself with that power supply is the last one because a freaking hearing aide battery is capable of stopping your heart in that last scenario. Hell lets not even mention the fact that you picked the one frequency that I have never heard of anyone dying from besides from having their body parts vaporized due to heating. Your ignorance is burning so brightly I have to wear welding googles or I will go blind.

DC doesn't have a frequency. But, nice try. Thanks for playing

And how many amps is that hearing aide battery?

Here's a few examples of your pleasure:

A 9V battery has 500-800mAh (that means 500-800mA over an hour)
A AAA battery has 1150mAh (that means 1150mA over an hour)
A AA battery has 2850mAh (that means 2850mA over an hour)

All very low current. I would expect a hearing aid battery to be somewhere lower than the 9V...of course it can't kill you, the amps aren't there.

Interestingly, I work on this stuff for a living - but, ya know, I guess I don't really know much about the dangers of voltage/amperage (not like I have had this beat into me via quarterly safety training for the past, oh, 10 years).

technoextreme · 19th January 2010, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by realpaladin

You could also get killed if you offend someone who will be using that powersupply to beat you to a bloody pulp... but that is neither here nor there...

Bob diserved the sarcastic response.

Quote:

DC doesn't have a frequency. But, nice try. Thanks for playing

Actually it does and its ridiculously obvious.

BobTheDonkey · 19th January 2010, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by technoextreme

Bob diserved the sarcastic response.

Actually it does and its ridiculously obvious.

No. It doesn't. That's how DC works. There is no frequency (well, ok, 0Hz...if you want to be pedantic). AC has frequency, DC does not.

17th January 2010, 07:43 PM	#1
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 15,452	Why Aren't Laptop Computers Grounded? It is the winter, and every time I have touched my laptop computer, this weekend, I got a spark. So, as a temporary measure, I started using my antistatic wristband to ground the machine. And, so far: No more sparks. But, now the question comes up: Why don't these things have grounding plugs, to begin with?!
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

17th January 2010, 07:55 PM	#3
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 15,452	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 Mine does. Get one that does. :P Perhaps I should add the word "Most" to the title. Because most of the laptops, tablets, and netbooks I have seen do not have them. But, why?!!! Why can't the third prong be standard on these things?
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

17th January 2010, 08:33 PM	#4
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Somewhere north of the South Pole Posts: 12,279	You can almost certainly order an upgraded power supply for your laptop that'll be 3 pronged. But, I have had such laptops for years now, and in the middle of winter when the air's dry enough, I still used to get shocked. Pretty damn badly too. That didn't stop until I got a humidifier for my condo. My point is that a grounded power supply for your laptop might not be a cure for the problem.
	__________________ "AND ZEPPELINS!!! We haven't even begun to talk about Zeppelins yet! Marauding inflatable Teutonic johnsons waggling their way across the sky! Indecent and flammable all at once."

17th January 2010, 09:02 PM	#6
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,989	Are you wearing the grounding strap or did you attach it to the laptop? Attaching it to the laptop doesn't make much sense. It would generally be you building up the static charge not your laptop (your laptop isn't scuffing it's shoes across the carpet is it?). And having the laptop attached to a ground wouldn't stop the spark from occurring. The static charge you build up "wants" to reach ground in order to discharge. And laptops are designed to operate unplugged so a ground connection isn't expected to be available most of the time anyway, they have to be engineered to assume one isn't available. And it's not unusual for low voltage equipment to not require a ground connection. And on those three pronged connections the grounding doesn't usually extend beyong the transformer anyway.
	Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 17th January 2010 at 09:07 PM.

17th January 2010, 09:41 PM	#7
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 15,452	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 Truly. Humidification to reduce dryness will reduce static discharges. Perhaps. But, I also have a couple of desktop machines, all with grounded plugs, and they don't give me a spark. Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy Are you wearing the grounding strap or did you attach it to the laptop? Attaching it to the laptop doesn't make much sense. It would generally be you building up the static charge not your laptop (your laptop isn't scuffing it's shoes across the carpet is it?). It is attached to the laptop. But, I think it does build up static in some of the places I put it. Or, maybe it's got a loose wire in it. Something to look into....
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17th January 2010, 07:45 PM	#2
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,628	Mine does. Get one that does. :P

17th January 2010, 08:50 PM	#5
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,628	Truly. Humidification to reduce dryness will reduce static discharges. Where I live it gets close to desert-dry at times (esp. in Winter) and I employ a humidifier to stave off drying of my guitars (wood). This also has the benefit of reducing static electricity. Nonetheless, I'd go for that and a grounded (three-prong) plug power-supply. And, I'll admit, that my laptop is not a 'store bought' one. It is one of those 'order to your specs' types (Nobilis). I payed more but it has nice specs - and a grounded plug.

17th January 2010, 09:57 PM	#8
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,989	A loose wire won't build up a static charge. A loose wire would lead to a continuous shock except I don't think there are any voltages in a laptop computer that would shock a human. And your reasoning is backward on the affect of grounding and static discharge. You can discharge most fully, greatest shock, in to a grounded object. If you discharge in to some isolated, ungrounded, object you have the potential for only partially discharging, lower shock.

17th January 2010, 10:18 PM	#9
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,623	Your laptop may already be grounded, but you may not! It is not the 'grounding' that matters in drawing a spark, it is the difference in electrical potential between yourself and the laptop. A grounded device may have a greater potential difference from an ungrounded object (or person) than any two ungrounded objects have with each other. Similarly, you stand a greater chance of drawing a spark from a grounded water faucet than from the glass of water sitting on the table. HOWEVER, if one end of your wrist strap is attached to the laptop's 'ground' and you pick up the other end before touching the laptop, you are not likely to draw a spark at all, since the potential difference will be bled off through the strap. And if both the laptop and the strap are actually 'grounded' to the water pipe (or the third-wire ground pin in an electrical outlet), you will not draw a spark from either the laptop or the faucet. Wrist straps and third-wire ground pins act to equalize electrical potential between objects connected together.
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

17th January 2010, 10:27 PM	#10
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 71,033	I have never been zapped by a laptop.
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17th January 2010, 10:44 PM	#12
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,628	Now I have to ask the unasked question: Are you rubbing your feet on a carpet repetitively before getting on your laptop? I agree with the idea that this might be related to yourself (how people spark on door handles from static electricity, for instance) or even the environment (the table, chair, floor, etc.) where you have the laptop and create electrostatic sparks.

17th January 2010, 10:49 PM	#13
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,989	Even if there is a loose wire, I don't think the voltages in a laptop are going to shock a person. And there aren't many plausible ways a laptop sitting still could build up a static charge. Are you rubbing it's plastic parts against the carpet? A cat rubbing against it? It's far more likely the charge has built up on you. The primary reasons for grounding in the A/C grid don't exist in low powered isolated devices. The main reasons for grounding: Lightning diversion; Providing a path for high voltage to dissipate in the event of a wiring failure; Preventing the isolation transformers in the grid from building up a high voltage relative to ground. Those issues don't exist in low voltage battery operated devices.

17th January 2010, 11:15 PM	#14
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 15,452	The laptop is used in a variety of locations: On a wooden table (that might shift on the carpet, every now and then); on a soft ottoman-like thingy; sometimes directly on the carpet; rarely on the bed. (But I take special care not to smother the vents.) Here's an experiment I might try: 1. "unground" the machine and have it sit someplace, untouched for a while. 2. Rub my feet on the carpet, with socks, in dry air 3. VERY IMPORTANT: Touch something that is grounded, such as a light switch, to release the static electricity. I would expect to get a spark, here. But, this is important, because of the next step: 4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark. Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!! Any recommendations for locations, in step #1? Should the computer be on or off during this experiment? Would it make a difference? Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 Now I have to ask the unasked question: Are you rubbing your feet on a carpet repetitively before getting on your laptop? Not intentionally. (At least not yet.)
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!! Last edited by Wowbagger; 17th January 2010 at 11:18 PM.

17th January 2010, 11:50 PM	#15
CelticRose Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,603	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I have never been zapped by a laptop. Neither have I, and I live in a desert.
	__________________ Be who you are & say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter & those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss Be yourself no matter what they say. - Sting My needlework blog: http://rainbowpincushion.blogspot.com/

18th January 2010, 12:18 AM	#16
BobTheDonkey Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,501	Originally Posted by Wowbagger The laptop is used in a variety of locations: On a wooden table (that might shift on the carpet, every now and then); on a soft ottoman-like thingy; sometimes directly on the carpet; rarely on the bed. (But I take special care not to smother the vents.) Here's an experiment I might try: 1. "unground" the machine and have it sit someplace, untouched for a while. 2. Rub my feet on the carpet, with socks, in dry air 3. VERY IMPORTANT: Touch something that is grounded, such as a light switch, to release the static electricity. I would expect to get a spark, here. But, this is important, because of the next step: 4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark. Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!! Any recommendations for locations, in step #1? Should the computer be on or off during this experiment? Would it make a difference? Not intentionally. (At least not yet.) If the wooden table is polyurethaned, that's a pretty big ESD generator (as well as the ottoman, carpet, etc). The light switch itself isn't grounded - the screw holding the cover on may be...but the switch itself is usually plastic (for good reason - insulation). And even then, the screw head might be painted and therefore present less of a solid ground. A "better" idea for grounding yourself in step 3 could be to insert the banana plug of your ESD wrist strap into the 3rd hole of your outlet (that's the round one people...)... Of course, I can in no way whatsoever actually advocate this. I just know that it's acceptable policy in the USAF to use the 3rd wire as a ground for ESD tabletops...
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18th January 2010, 01:43 AM	#17
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,918	The laptop is grounded, if it is in good repair. The third prong wire to the power brick grounds the brick's case, as required by electrical code for 115v AC circuits. The wires going to the computer will be two or three (perhaps more), and one of those will be double duty - it is both the common return for power and the ground. You might expect that there would be a separate ground like there was to the brick, but the voltage going from he brick to the laptop is all low voltage DC, and the code doesn't require a separate ground in that case. The reason you got sparks in the first instance is that you grounded yourself to the computer and the static electricity drained by that path to ground. After you grounded yourself with the wrist strap, the static drained off there, and not longer when you touched the computer.
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,918

18th January 2010, 01:46 AM	#18
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,918	Originally Posted by Wowbagger 4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark. Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!! If you do, then there is a wiring fault in your laptop, probably. If you should happen to get a tingling sensation, there is definitely something wrong.
shadron Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,918

18th January 2010, 02:51 AM	#19
BigAl Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,397	Originally Posted by kuroyume0161 Now I have to ask the unasked question: Are you rubbing your feet on a carpet repetitively before getting on your laptop? I agree with the idea that this might be related to yourself (how people spark on door handles from static electricity, for instance) or even the environment (the table, chair, floor, etc.) where you have the laptop and create electrostatic sparks. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't worry about a spark. You might contact the manufacturer's tech support to see what they say. For a problem with a static-producing rug, a cheap spray bottle of anti-cling spray from the supermarket appplied to the rug will make the problem go away for a couple weeks. Reapply as necessary. I've seen this work in an office that had a killer static problem each winter.
BigAl Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,397	__________________ ------ Eric Pode of Croydon Chief Assistant to the Assistance Chief, Dept of Redundancy Dept.

18th January 2010, 05:52 AM	#20
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central Illinois Posts: 39,699	Originally Posted by Wowbagger It is the winter, and every time I have touched my laptop computer, this weekend, I got a spark. So, as a temporary measure, I started using my antistatic wristband to ground the machine. And, so far: No more sparks. But, now the question comes up: Why don't these things have grounding plugs, to begin with?! It should, but really the case should keep you from damaging the machine with a static spark.
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

18th January 2010, 10:44 AM	#21
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 15,452	Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey The light switch itself isn't grounded - the screw holding the cover on may be...but the switch itself is usually plastic (for good reason - insulation). And even then, the screw head might be painted and therefore present less of a solid ground. Some of the screws on some of my light switches are not painted, and usually provide a good source for draining static electricity. I don't seem to have any metal furnature.
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

18th January 2010, 12:17 PM	#22
MortFurd Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,010	1. If your laptop power supply has a three prong plug, it still does ZIP for grounding your laptop. The AC ground only goes as far as the power supply. 2. The low voltage DC side of your laptop power supply is galvanically separate from the AC side. This is a MUST so that if the power supply goes Tango Uniform you won't get zapped. 3. The third prong (ground) on the plug is NOT there to drain static electricity from the equipment. The ground prong is connected to the metal housing or frame of the equipment to provide a short circuit to ground should a "hot" wire somehow come loose inside the equipment. This will cause a circuit breaker or fuse to blow, but most importantly it will keep you from getting zapped. 4. If your laptop were properly grounded, you would be MORE likely to get a static zap than if it weren't. Grounding the equipment but not your self guarantees that one of you (the laptop) will be drained of static charge and that one of you (yourself) will not be drained. If there's no ground on the laptop, then it might be charged up as much as you are and thus REDUCE the static zap you could get. To reduce static zap: 1. Wear either anti-static shoes or leather soled shoes. 2. Wear cotton or linen clothing, avoid synthetics and wool. 3. Use humidifier or ion source to make the air more conductive. 4. Use a grounding strap on your wrist.
MortFurd Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,010

18th January 2010, 01:39 PM	#23
realpaladin Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,585	Originally Posted by Wowbagger The laptop is used in a variety of locations: On a wooden table (that might shift on the carpet, every now and then); on a soft ottoman-like thingy; sometimes directly on the carpet; rarely on the bed. (But I take special care not to smother the vents.) Here's an experiment I might try: 1. "unground" the machine and have it sit someplace, untouched for a while. 2. Rub my feet on the carpet, with socks, in dry air 3. VERY IMPORTANT: Touch something that is grounded, such as a light switch, to release the static electricity. I would expect to get a spark, here. But, this is important, because of the next step: 4. THEN (after touching a ground), immediately touch the laptop. See if I still get another spark. Theoretically, I should not get one in step 4. But, what does it mean if I do?!! Any recommendations for locations, in step #1? Should the computer be on or off during this experiment? Would it make a difference? Not intentionally. (At least not yet.) Post the YouTube url please
	__________________ "All is needed (and it is essential to my definitions) is to understand the actuality beyond the description, for example: Nothing is actually" - Doron Shadmi "But this means you actually have nothing." - Realpaladin ---

18th January 2010, 02:11 PM	#24
stevea Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,060	This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads. The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts.
stevea Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,060

18th January 2010, 09:53 PM	#25
Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Westchester County, NY (when not in space) Posts: 15,452	Funny thing is: I have tried all day to get a spark from my laptop in various circumstances and settings. I think I might have felt a relatively minor tingle early in the day, after walking normally on the carpet (no intentional scruffing the feet along with socks) and touching it without the grounding thing. But, barely. And, I haven't gotten anything else resembling a spark since. And, no, I won't do the foot-scruffing right before touching it, because: A. I already know that will work, just as reliably as touching the light switch screws. I only experimented with the steps I outlined above, and normal walking. B. I don't want to risk (even if it is a tiny one) damaging the thing. Originally Posted by realpaladin Post the YouTube url please http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A&#t=01m18s (A nice, joyous song preceeds it.) Originally Posted by stevea This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads. Which responses seemed particularly ignorant, to you? Originally Posted by stevea The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts. Repeating what others had stated, in different words.... is addressing verbosity.... how exactly?
	__________________ WARNING: Phrases in this post may sound meaner than they were intended to be. SkeptiCamp NYC: http://www.skepticampnyc.org/ An open conference on science and skepticism, where *you* could be a presenter! By the way, my first name is NOT Bowerick!!!!

18th January 2010, 10:01 PM	#26
BobTheDonkey Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,501	Originally Posted by stevea This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads. The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts. Speaking of verbose ignorance...everyone* knows it's amperage, not voltage that does the damage. Thousands of volts are of concern because of the amperage that it represents. SO, being as the power brick for my laptop claims an output of 19V, 7.9A (DC) and a (relatively) small current of 300-500mA (that's approx 1/16 of the output current, btw) is enough to cause death in humans...your ignorance is showing *ok, so, not really everyone...but I'd wager most of the people on this thread who have readily apparent backgrounds in electronics know this
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18th January 2010, 10:28 PM	#27
kuroyume0161 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 1,628	I'll just state that grounded plugs are just good. Might not apply here for static electricity but it is a good start to protect the laptop/power-supply against surges, spikes, and brownouts (UPSs designed to protect against this are better, of course). I'm definitely not an electrician or electrical engineer. I just pointed to possible solutions from the given information. I'm more acclimated to guitar electronics where grounding is very important. On a guitar itself it just stops the tingling when touching metal parts and output hum but a faultily-grounded amp or sound system (monitors, mikes, PAs) could kill you. There are a few actual cases of this or close calls.
	Last edited by kuroyume0161; 18th January 2010 at 10:29 PM.

19th January 2010, 01:45 AM	#28
realpaladin Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,585	Originally Posted by Wowbagger http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A&#t=01m18s What's with that? Why do my responses of late evoke muppet-memories in people? Originally Posted by Wowbagger Which responses seemed particularly ignorant, to you? Ooooh, pick me! Pick me! Pick me!
	__________________ "All is needed (and it is essential to my definitions) is to understand the actuality beyond the description, for example: Nothing is actually" - Doron Shadmi "But this means you actually have nothing." - Realpaladin ---

19th January 2010, 04:27 AM	#29
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 9,098	There are high voltages present in laptops specifically to do with the LCD screen which may require several hundred volts, so don't go digging around inside if you don't know what you're doing.

19th January 2010, 06:20 AM	#30
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: central Illinois Posts: 39,699	Originally Posted by stevea This thread is a nice example of the verbose ignorance on these threads. The line power to your laptop stops at the power converter. - after that it's 10-15 volts and you couldn't hurt yourself unless you tried very hard. It's not grounded for the same reason your wall-worts and lamps aren't generally grounded - no exposed parts. wall wort?
	__________________ I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

19th January 2010, 07:08 AM	#31
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,989	Originally Posted by commandlinegamer There are high voltages present in laptops specifically to do with the LCD screen which may require several hundred volts, so don't go digging around inside if you don't know what you're doing. Can you provide a reference for that? When this thread started the display was the one component I didn't know the voltage for off the top of my head. On topic internet references were hard to find but most suggested 5V for an LED display (did you mean LED BTW? Similar low voltages for LCD but LCD isn't too common anymore is it) Originally Posted by Dancing David wall wort? Wall wart. Nickname for the ugly transformers that plug in to outlets.

19th January 2010, 08:00 AM	#32
commandlinegamer Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mazes of Menace Posts: 9,098	Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy Can you provide a reference for that? When this thread started the display was the one component I didn't know the voltage for off the top of my head. The screen backlight may require between 500 and 700 VAC, supplied via an inverter. Finding a decent article seems to be problematic; this is a typical diy guide to replacing it (which I wouldn't recommend to the novice no matter how easy it looks): http://www.pchub.com/uph/content/fq2..._inverter.html

19th January 2010, 08:12 AM	#33
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,989	Thanks. And apparently you really did mean LCD.

19th January 2010, 09:16 AM	#34
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 26,538	Originally Posted by shadron The reason you got sparks in the first instance is that you grounded yourself to the computer and the static electricity drained by that path to ground. After you grounded yourself with the wrist strap, the static drained off there, and not longer when you touched the computer. This. When you build up some static on yourself, if you touch something and it "zaps" you, it's because the thing you touched is grounded.

19th January 2010, 10:22 AM	#35
technoextreme Illuminator Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 3,785	Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey Speaking of verbose ignorance...everyone* knows it's amperage, not voltage that does the damage. ok, so, not really everyone...but I'd wager most of the people on this thread who have readily apparent backgrounds in electronics know this That saying is an example of ignorance trying to masqurede itself as knowledge. Originally Posted by BobTheDonkey* SO, being as the power brick for my laptop claims an output of 19V, 7.9A (DC) and a (relatively) small current of 300-500mA (that's approx 1/16 of the output current, btw) is enough to cause death in humans...your ignorance is showing Steva is right. You'd have to be an abject retard to kill yourself with that power supply. You would have to jam the wires into an open wound, be sopping wet, or jam the wires straight through to your heart. And the only way I'm certain that you could kill yourself with that power supply is the last one because a freaking hearing aide battery is capable of stopping your heart in that last scenario. Hell lets not even mention the fact that you picked the one frequency that I have never heard of anyone dying from besides from having their body parts vaporized due to heating. Your ignorance is burning so brightly I have to wear welding googles or I will go blind.
	__________________ It's amazing how many of these "paranormal" icons seem to merge together. There always seem to be theories about how they link together in some way. I'm sure someone has a very good explanation as to how Bigfoot killed JFK to help cover Roswell.-Mark Mekes This isn't rocket surgery.-Bill Nye Last edited by technoextreme; 19th January 2010 at 11:00 AM.

19th January 2010, 11:47 AM	#36
realpaladin Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,585	Originally Posted by technoextreme That saying is an example of ignorance trying to masqurede itself as knowledge. Steva is right. You'd have to be an abject retard to kill yourself with that power supply. You would have to jam the wires into an open wound, be sopping wet, or jam the wires straight through to your heart. And the only way I'm certain that you could kill yourself with that power supply is the last one because a freaking hearing aide battery is capable of stopping your heart in that last scenario. Hell lets not even mention the fact that you picked the one frequency that I have never heard of anyone dying from besides from having their body parts vaporized due to heating. Your ignorance is burning so brightly I have to wear welding googles or I will go blind. You could also get killed if you offend someone who will be using that powersupply to beat you to a bloody pulp... but that is neither here nor there... I am more interested in Wowbaggers adventures.
	__________________ "All is needed (and it is essential to my definitions) is to understand the actuality beyond the description, for example: Nothing is actually" - Doron Shadmi "But this means you actually have nothing." - Realpaladin ---