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#2 |
JREF Kid
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 8,952
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Too bad nukes don't differentiate between civillians and thugs. I can't think of a better statement for telling the world, "no more".
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Nothing Reportable Here |
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#3 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,264
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in Sudan
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All I can predict is that, if the US does nothing, it will be criticized for doing nothing. If the US does something, it will be criticized for interfering. If the US does something between the two, it will be criticized both for doing too much and too little. Whatever it is, if it doesn't work out, it will be an example of US incompetence. If it does work out, it will be an example of US imperialism. And if it's a partial success, it will be an example both of US incompetence and US imperialism. |
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#4 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,466
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The Sudan situation has been just beyond awful for too long. Perhaps if the US started making some noise about it, the Sudanese government would back off a bit, but I doubt it.
I guess with the troops already extended in Afganistan and Iraq, we could only send in a minimal force. A small unit of special forces armed to the teeth might be enough, but I have a feeling we'd just be buying time for the blacks to get out of the country and become refugees. On the one hand, that might sound OK, but there isn't enough food to go around for the people of Chad, where the Sudanese are fleeing to. This has been going on and on while we were all making a big stink about the US and Iraq. It is criminal neglect for the world to stand by and let this slaughter take place. |
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#5 |
High Priest of Ed
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,819
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Re: Ethnic Cleansing in Sudan
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Hamilton 68: Tracking Russian internet propaganda |
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#6 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,466
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Re: Re: Ethnic Cleansing in Sudan
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#7 |
Seasonally Disaffected
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,283
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From the Dr. Walter Williams Discusses Saddam and WMD's thread next door:
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"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder. "It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels I hate bigots. |
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#8 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,444
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Quote:
And according to some other posters whatever the country does internally is their business and no one has a right to tell them what to do...unless it's USA or Israel then everyone knows what's better for them. |
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#9 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,660
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After all you americans have finished feeling sorry for yourselves you may want to check this thing out...foer a change you can probably blame Canada....or at least a canadian oil company.... I will say no more, I don't want to spoil the surprise.
edited to add: That is, of course, if you are looking for someone outside Sudan to blame... |
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And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how. |
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#10 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,482
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Sudan didn't start yesterday, or the day before, or the day before that even. The slavery, ethnic killing and rape/torchure has been happening there since the early 70's...civil war has been raging there since the 80's....and the United Nations is more worried about stopping the suicide bomber wall in Israel, hiding flight data recorders, allowing massacres and covering up the oil-for-food scandal than doing anything about Sudan.
When was the last time Kofi Annan made as much noise about Sudan as he did for Sheik Yassin? NEVER. Sudan need an enema, in a hurry, the U.N. ain't gonna do it. |
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#11 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 43,090
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The UN has tried to do something, it is up to it's members to do it. If they aren't interested, then it is powerless. It was once a democracy.
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Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity. Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos |
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#12 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 18,312
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Quote:
But you got to love "the Fool" and AUP. Their response for the news of a massacre in Sudan? The former blames Canada ("a Canadian oil company"), the latter, the US (for making the UN "importent"). They're nothing if not predictable. |
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#13 |
Member of the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,435
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Ah, yes, Fool. Talisman Energy.
They purchased interests from an Arab oil company (arak?) in about 1998, worked them a bit, and sold their interests to a large Indian oil company in 2003. I hope you don't mean to imply that those 5 years of participation in the development of energy resources in the area are the root cause of the current situation there. |
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www.skepticalcommunity.com "You're a soundbite waiting to happen." (Steve Antle) "You are O.D'ing on drama flakes. Please stop." (kookbreaker) "You had me at bamboo worms." - (GeekGoddess) "I power-barfed for so long that I'm pretty sure I lost a few inches in height and maybe even went back in time a little. " (negativ) |
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#14 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,467
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#15 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,803
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Which European colonial power up and left this part of Africa by the proverbial side of the road with a few proverbial bucks and a hearty proverbial handshake?
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By convention there is color, By convention sweetness, By convention bitterness, But in reality there are atoms and space. --Democritus (c. 400 BCE) |
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#16 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,482
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Quote:
Sudan was NEVER a democracy. More history rewritten for us by A_U_P. Sudan had a "civilian government " in 1956 to 1958 and 1986-1989 otherwise it has been one coup after the next coup. Sudan is about as democratic as Syria or Saudi Arabia. |
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#17 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,444
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#19 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,482
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Quote:
Concerning your link Aerocontrols. I am not turning this into a middle east thread, nor do I wish it to, but doesn't it strike anybody as strange beyong belief that the United Nations is more concerned with condemning Israel over killing Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin than it is over 810,000 African people in Sudan fleeing their homes due to ethnic cleansing?!?!?! If you never understood the true agenda of the modern United Nations maybe this example should tell you everything you need to know. |
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#20 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,460
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I was in Sudan a few months ago. I thought I was more likely to be killed on the roads there then by the war - the roads and the driving standards are terrible.
The USA did lob a cruise missile at a factory in Sudan on August 20, 1998. The USA claimed it was a chemical weapons factory, and that the USA was acting in self-defense, but of course this was just the usual lies and bulls**t. |
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#21 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,241
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Well, according to a certain AM radio talk show host, I was under the impression that America has never, will never, turn it's back or a blind eye on any type of genocide.
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You have to live it to believe it! If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for you! |
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#22 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,803
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Who shall weed an untended garden?
From Library of Congress Country Studies Sudan http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+sd0028) Chad http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+td0017) |
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By convention there is color, By convention sweetness, By convention bitterness, But in reality there are atoms and space. --Democritus (c. 400 BCE) |
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#23 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,482
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Quote:
Richard Clarke said under oath yesterday in front of the 9-11 peanel that the plant in Sudan was connected to Bin Laden and Al Queda. I always thought it wasn't too. I'm soooo confused... ![]() |
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#24 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,467
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Quote:
Not our finest hour, but many speculate it was to divert attention away from one of Clinton's finer half-hours. Two cruise missiles under the circumstances are the equivalent of your exterminator showing up armed only with a flyswatter. |
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#25 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,482
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Quote:
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I can't find the 9/11 Commission Hearing day two transcript but Richard Clarke DEFINITELY said the plant was not your average asprin factory either. Are they all lying...under oath? Now I am really confused... ![]() |
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#26 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,660
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Quote:
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__________________
And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how. |
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#27 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,467
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Quote:
But then I think back 13 years to the Iraqi workers in white coveralls with "baby milk factory" written on the back... in English. I don't know if any solid resolution was ever reached on the nature of the target, but it was certainly never confirmed after the strike. |
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#28 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,264
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#29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,264
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Quote:
However, this does not mean that the facilities could not have been used for other purposes as well.
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Now, I'm not so sure, because I remember the outcry about this being substantially similar to the outcry about lobbing cruise missiles into Afghanistan in an attempt to kill bin Laden. In retrospect, that action seems like it was a really good idea, only a couple of hours too late. |
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#30 |
Member of the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,435
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__________________
www.skepticalcommunity.com "You're a soundbite waiting to happen." (Steve Antle) "You are O.D'ing on drama flakes. Please stop." (kookbreaker) "You had me at bamboo worms." - (GeekGoddess) "I power-barfed for so long that I'm pretty sure I lost a few inches in height and maybe even went back in time a little. " (negativ) |
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#31 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,460
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Here's a link to a longish report, produced back in 1998, that seems to debunk the American claims completely. I suppose it is biased. Anyhow, I am prepared to believe it - to me, it seems much more reasonable to me than the American claims.
I visited Khartoum, and that city seems a most unlikely location for a deadly nerve gas factory. The photos of the wrecked building seem to show none of the equipment that would normally be necessary for the production of nerve gas precursors. The doors to the facility opened straight onto the city streets. There is no sign of the isolation and pressure barrier systems that would normally be used to contain deadly materials. Even if fanatical terrorists are prepared to work in an unsafe chemical weapons factory, they still have to ensure they will remain alive long enough to actually make the weapons. And even terrorists have families and friends that they are not too keen on killing by accident. On top of that we have the testimony of many British engineers and diplomats, who had visited the factory prior to its destruction: they said that the only things being made there were low-tech veterinary medicines and the sort of simple human remedies normally dispensed at a pharmacy. |
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#32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,264
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#33 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,815
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Quote:
You can shoot all the Quebecians. I can give you the address of a self-confessed Quebecian if you like. |
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#34 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,272
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#35 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,466
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Quote:
edited because I can't type worth a ***** today |
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#36 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,482
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From: Annan tells of genocide 'regret' - Friday, 26 March, 2004
Quote:
TRANSLATION: "We're too busy at the UN passing resolutions over assasinated terrorist leaders and walls to stop suicide bombers to worry about sill things like genocide" |
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#37 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,460
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#38 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,186
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What is telling is this death toll FAR exceeds the casualties in the Israel/Palestine conflict, and strangely the UN, world opinion, news media coverage in the West, etc. really couldn't care less.
(I am not really surprised of course.) I just find it funny that those usual socialist fighters for international justice are so concerned about Israeli oppression in the third world, yet we have true genocide going on here and it is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... |
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#39 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,264
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Quote:
The statements of Tom Carnaffin seem overtly the strongest. However, I do not see these as compelling, either. I have some experience with chemical engineering, and I can say that any reasonbly equipped household within walking distance of a chemist could easily produce a variety of nerve agents. There's a big difference between saying that a facility is not particularly suited to the production of nerve agents and saying that it cannot be adapted. Not that I have not been convinced that the facility was actually producing a precursor of a nerve agent. Merely that I have gone from being fairly certain that the bombing was a war crime to not being certain about it at all. I don't see any way of increasing the certainty short of sending truly independent investigators to take soil samples and analyze them. Do you? |
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#40 |
puzzler
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 6,460
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Quote:
If the USA administration really believed that nerve agent precursors were present, I think they would have accepted that offer. If the Sudanese administration really believed that nerve agent precursors were present, I think they would not have made that offer. So in the absence of hard evidence, I lean towards the belief that the USA attack was both a blunder and a war crime. |
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