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Tags apostasy incidents , Islam incidents , Sudan incidents , Sudan issues

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Old 15th May 2014, 09:52 AM   #1
Captain_Swoop
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Sudan woman faces death for apostasy / Appeal court overturns

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-27424064

Quote:
A Sudanese court has sentenced a woman to hang for apostasy after she left Islam and married a Christian man.

"We gave you three days to recant but you insist on not returning to Islam. I sentence you to be hanged to death," the judge told the woman, AFP reports.
They have put a 2 year stay on the execution so she can give birth and bring up the baby before they kill her.

The judge also sentenced the woman to 100 lashes after convicting her of adultery - because her marriage to a Christian man was not valid under Islamic law.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 15th May 2014 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 15th May 2014, 10:24 AM   #2
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It's even more insanely unjust because she didn't even leave Islam and convert to Christianity. She was born to a Muslim father and Christian mother, and was raised by her mother as a Christian, and hence has always considered herself a Christian.
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:29 AM   #3
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What do you expect from a religion? Logic? Rationality?
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:30 AM   #4
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Don't you know that Christians are just as bad, and that it's racist to criticize their culture?
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:44 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
Don't you know that Christians are just as bad, and that it's racist to criticize their culture?
No. And neither do you.
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Old 15th May 2014, 11:53 AM   #6
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Well, if she refuses to be the correct religion, what are they supposed to do with her?
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Old 15th May 2014, 12:00 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
Don't you know that Christians are just as bad, and that it's racist to criticize their culture?
This is complete bollocks. It isn't racist to criticise the failure of some countries' governments to support human rights. It isn't racist, but it is silly, to criticise an entire religion based on the activities of a minority of adherents.

Some Islamic theocracies are firmly stuck in the middle ages, and have laws and practices which should have been left behind 500 years ago. Most Muslims do not support the kind of laws that have been used against this woman.

Sudan's lack of human rights is worthy of criticism in the most robust language. Equating Sudanese Islamic theocracy with all Muslims worldwide is as silly as criticising all Catholics in the 16th century for Queen Mary I's execution of Protestants. Neither are representative of the majority of followers of the respective faiths.

It's an appalling story, and I understand that Amnesty International and some governments with embassies in Sudan are calling for Sudan to respect freedom of religion and not carry out these sentences. I hope they can influence the Sudanese authorities to move towards a more modern system of government.
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Old 15th May 2014, 12:03 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
This is complete bollocks. It isn't racist to criticise the failure of some countries' governments to support human rights. It isn't racist, but it is silly, to criticise an entire religion based on the activities of a minority of adherents.

Some Islamic theocracies are firmly stuck in the middle ages, and have laws and practices which should have been left behind 500 years ago. Most Muslims do not support the kind of laws that have been used against this woman.

Sudan's lack of human rights is worthy of criticism in the most robust language. Equating Sudanese Islamic theocracy with all Muslims worldwide is as silly as criticising all Catholics in the 16th century for Queen Mary I's execution of Protestants. Neither are representative of the majority of followers of the respective faiths.

It's an appalling story, and I understand that Amnesty International and some governments with embassies in Sudan are calling for Sudan to respect freedom of religion and not carry out these sentences. I hope they can influence the Sudanese authorities to move towards a more modern system of government.
^This. All of this.
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Old 15th May 2014, 12:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
Don't you know that Christians are just as bad, and that it's racist to criticize their culture?
Perhaps you missed A'isha's comment:

Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
It's even more insanely unjust because she didn't even leave Islam and convert to Christianity. She was born to a Muslim father and Christian mother,and was raised by her mother as a Christian,and hence has always considered herself a Christian.
(emphasis added)
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Old 15th May 2014, 01:04 PM   #10
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Way lots of people out in the world need killing. The OP covers some of them: the "judge", witnesses, complainers about the victim, members of the local judicial system, all who support them........
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Old 15th May 2014, 01:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
No. And neither do you.
But that's not going to change his 10th century thinking
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Old 15th May 2014, 02:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Way lots of people out in the world need killing. The OP covers some of them: the "judge", witnesses, complainers about the victim, members of the local judicial system, all who support them........
do we all get to pick our own victims? What if you're on someone else's hit list? I can see the difficulties here!
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Old 15th May 2014, 02:05 PM   #13
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Isn't this all rather by the book, though?
There may be an exception in this case, as the woman actually wasn't a Muslim in the first place, but there's certainly reason to believe that apostasy from Islam can result in such a penalty under Sharia.
The same is true of Christianity too, of course.

A Muslim man marrying a Christian (or Jewish) woman would be fine, though.
Seems a strange double standard, but I'm sure that there's some logic behind it, no matter how twisted.
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Old 15th May 2014, 02:12 PM   #14
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Evidence Number 3,689,086,287,879 that Islam sucks.
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Old 15th May 2014, 02:40 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Isn't this all rather by the book, though?
There may be an exception in this case, as the woman actually wasn't a Muslim in the first place, but there's certainly reason to believe that apostasy from Islam can result in such a penalty under Sharia.
The same is true of Christianity too, of course.
That's why the justification for such laws is less important than the fact that those laws exist and are enforced.

As far as I'm concerned, at least.

Quote:
A Muslim man marrying a Christian (or Jewish) woman would be fine, though.
Seems a strange double standard, but I'm sure that there's some logic behind it, no matter how twisted.
There is, and I'd be happy to explain if you really want to know.
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
This is complete bollocks. It isn't racist to criticise the failure of some countries' governments to support human rights. It isn't racist, but it is silly, to criticise an entire religion based on the activities of a minority of adherents.

Some Islamic theocracies are firmly stuck in the middle ages, and have laws and practices which should have been left behind 500 years ago. Most Muslims do not support the kind of laws that have been used against this woman.

Sudan's lack of human rights is worthy of criticism in the most robust language. Equating Sudanese Islamic theocracy with all Muslims worldwide is as silly as criticising all Catholics in the 16th century for Queen Mary I's execution of Protestants. Neither are representative of the majority of followers of the respective faiths.

It's an appalling story, and I understand that Amnesty International and some governments with embassies in Sudan are calling for Sudan to respect freedom of religion and not carry out these sentences. I hope they can influence the Sudanese authorities to move towards a more modern system of government.
Where has any poster on this thread made that statement?
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:08 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
Isn't this all rather by the book, though?
There may be an exception in this case, as the woman actually wasn't a Muslim in the first place, but there's certainly reason to believe that apostasy from Islam can result in such a penalty under Sharia.
The same is true of Christianity too, of course.

A Muslim man marrying a Christian (or Jewish) woman would be fine, though.
Seems a strange double standard, but I'm sure that there's some logic behind it, no matter how twisted.
As I understand, the children of Muslim men are automatically Muslim under Sharia law.
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Old 15th May 2014, 03:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Evidence Number 3,689,086,287,879 that Islam sucks.
^^Evidence Number 5,104,367,862,334 you're an Islamophobe:

You attribute problems with extremists Islamism to fundamental flaws in Islam itself.
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Old 15th May 2014, 09:13 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Renmarkable View Post
do we all get to pick our own victims? What if you're on someone else's hit list? I can see the difficulties here!
There and even here I could be. Me and my little friends are not particularly concerned.
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Old 15th May 2014, 09:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-27424064



They have put a 2 year stay on the execution so she can give birth and bring up the baby before they kill her.

The judge also sentenced the woman to 100 lashes after convicting her of adultery - because her marriage to a Christian man was not valid under Islamic law.
It's heartbreaking how many souls are being forced to live in the obscenity of a modern dark age.
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Old 15th May 2014, 09:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Dubious Dick View Post
What do you expect from a religion? Logic? Rationality?
Compassion? Decency?
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Old 15th May 2014, 09:36 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Well, if she refuses to be the correct religion, what are they supposed to do with her?
I suggest they commit suicide in protest of these unIslamic heretics.
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Old 16th May 2014, 12:14 AM   #23
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Call me a cynic and prejudiced (and jadded) but for the last 25 years when I hear news about some countries, I know it will almost certainly involve human right violation. Sudan is one of those. And I also assume nothing will be done about it.
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Old 16th May 2014, 02:40 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
^^Evidence Number 5,104,367,862,334 you're an Islamophobe:

You attribute problems with extremists Islamism to fundamental flaws in Islam itself.

Ok, so Islam, is fine with apostasy? It's just the Sudanese government that's messed up, right? Islam definitely does not support lashes for adulterers, right? I mean that would be barbaric, it's surely just the Sudanese court that's bonkers?

Ummm. No. The root causes of these problems lie directly in the words of the Koran.
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Old 16th May 2014, 02:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
...snip...

Sudan's lack of human rights is worthy of criticism in the most robust language. Equating Sudanese Islamic theocracy with all Muslims worldwide is as silly as criticising all Catholics in the 16th century for Queen Mary I's execution of Protestants. Neither are representative of the majority of followers of the respective faiths.

It's an appalling story, and I understand that Amnesty International and some governments with embassies in Sudan are calling for Sudan to respect freedom of religion and not carry out these sentences. I hope they can influence the Sudanese authorities to move towards a more modern system of government.
It's also a lack of established checks and balances in a system of governance.
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Old 16th May 2014, 03:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
Don't you know that Christians are just as bad, and that it's racist to criticize their culture?
Have you at least signed the Avaaz petition?
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Old 16th May 2014, 03:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Ok, so Islam, is fine with apostasy? It's just the Sudanese government that's messed up, right? Islam definitely does not support lashes for adulterers, right? I mean that would be barbaric, it's surely just the Sudanese court that's bonkers?

Ummm. No. The root causes of these problems lie directly in the words of the Koran.
No the root cause is not the word of the koran, the root cause is that *some* muslim (but not all) give weight to those word.

Just like because some idiot christian got a crappy interpretation of some verse in the bible making them getting bitten by snake intentionally, I am not flagging the whole religion as insane. Or the "suffer no witch" one with people really burning "witches" in Africa.
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Old 16th May 2014, 04:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
There is, and I'd be happy to explain if you really want to know.
Save your breath. WhoŽd want to listen to a crypto-Muslim Islamophile like you spouting faithhead apologetics?

I mean, other than me and a few other obvious non-skeptics...
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Old 16th May 2014, 04:44 AM   #29
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If islam is being used to justify atrocities then it is a problem for islam
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Old 16th May 2014, 06:14 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
^^Evidence Number 5,104,367,862,334 you're an Islamophobe:

You attribute problems with extremists Islamism to fundamental flaws in Islam itself.
Because it is a fundamental flaw in Islam. Like many other things.
The Qu'ran and Hadith prescribe severe punishment for it.
You can only get around that fact with some serious mental gymnastics.
And of course as with all religious texts, there are a lot of contradictions too.
So, the best you can say about that matter in Islam is that is ambiguous - and that in itself is a serious flaw!

Any system of morals that does not clearly avoid injust and cruel punishment is FLAWED.
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:00 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by illuminator
Any system of morals that does not clearly avoid injust and cruel punishment is FLAWED.
The issue is, interpretations of those issues varies within Islam. To attribute one sect's interpretation to the whole of Islam is clearly irrational, in that it directly contradicts known facts about reality.

If you wish to criticize specific aspects of the Quran (what is the correct spelling for that book? I've seen many), that's one thing. To criticize what Muslims believe necessitates specifying which group of Muslims you wish to discuss, and acknowledging the limits of your arguments (specifically, specifying which groups you are discussing).

Think of it this way: if I attributed to ALL Christians a Mormon interpretation of one of the Gosples, I'd clearly be wrong. There's no rational reason to believe that a Menonite or an Anglican will have that same interpretation. Thus, I need to limit my criticism of the Mormon interpretation to the Mormon religion, and potentially any who agree with it. The same principle applies here.

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi
If islam is being used to justify atrocities then it is a problem for islam
Sort of. It certainly is bad PR. However, A'isha has demonstrate that there are large groups within Islam pushing to fix those issues, meaning that they're making at least a good-faith attempt to clean house. You can't blame them for not instantly succeeding--atheism still has Atheism+, after all. We all have our lunatic fringes; full elimination is not possible. What's necessary is marginalization of those fringes, which is being attempted within Islam.
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:05 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
^^Evidence Number 5,104,367,862,334 you're an Islamophobe:
Your blatant intolerance for dissent and your attempts to silence it with baseless ad-homs don't work on a skeptics forum. Try them on somewhere else.
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:09 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Just like because some idiot christian got a crappy interpretation of some verse in the bible making them getting bitten by snake intentionally, I am not flagging the whole religion as insane.
Well, to be fair. The beliefs in talking animals, magic, sin, and mythical beings is enough to flag the religion as insane without bringing up the snake handling.
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:13 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Evidence Number 3,689,086,287,879 that Islam sucks.
Because if you lined up examples of Muslims sucking and Christians sucking, the Muslim queue would be longer?
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:18 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Ok, so Islam, is fine with apostasy? It's just the Sudanese government that's messed up, right? Islam definitely does not support lashes for adulterers, right? I mean that would be barbaric, it's surely just the Sudanese court that's bonkers?

Ummm. No. The root causes of these problems lie directly in the words of the Koran.
So out of the 50 or so majority-Muslim countries, how many would you expect to have the death penalty for apostacy?
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:21 AM   #36
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Two years is a long time. Time enough to change Sudan's punishment for apostacy, maybe. It's not over until it is over.

But there are times I wish we had commando squads for rescuing victims of religious persecution.
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
Because if you lined up examples of Muslims sucking and Christians sucking, the Muslim queue would be longer?
I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said anything about Muslims sucking.
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:23 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
So out of the 50 or so majority-Muslim countries, how many would you expect to have the death penalty for apostacy?
I like how some atheists are more fundamentalist than the most fundamentalist theists are. The atheists take the religion as being ONLY the word of the holy book--no other considerations are allowed. Theists, however, tend to acknowledge that over the past few thousand years most of the major religions have been analyzed and interpreted and have had traditions added to them and so on, all of which are part of that religion. Even the most rabid fundamentalist theist generally allows for tradition, at least, to play a role in things.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh?
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:35 AM   #39
Tony
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Originally Posted by Dinwar View Post
I like how some atheists are more fundamentalist than the most fundamentalist theists are. The atheists take the religion as being ONLY the word of the holy book--no other considerations are allowed. Theists, however, tend to acknowledge that over the past few thousand years most of the major religions have been analyzed and interpreted and have had traditions added to them and so on, all of which are part of that religion. Even the most rabid fundamentalist theist generally allows for tradition, at least, to play a role in things.
Right. Some atheists have better BS (which "tradition" is) detectors than others.
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Old 16th May 2014, 09:14 AM   #40
Mister Agenda
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said anything about Muslims sucking.
I have no idea what you're talking about. You don't think ANY Muslims suck?
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