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Tags apostasy incidents , Islam incidents , Sudan incidents , Sudan issues

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Old 16th May 2014, 09:32 AM   #41
Tony
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
You don't think ANY Muslims suck?
Some suck. Some don't suck.

I'm not seeing what your point is.
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Last edited by Tony; 16th May 2014 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 16th May 2014, 09:44 AM   #42
Mister Agenda
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Some suck. Some don't suck.

I'm not seeing what your point is.
Citing something as evidence for 'Islam sucking' with no context is meaningless. I could as easily cite an atheist assaulting a preacher as evicence atheism sucks. Sure, abstractly, atheism has nothing inherent that would cause atheists to tend to act badly, but that doesn't mean there is nothing about being an atheist that leads to anger issues. To defend against the charge, I have to resort to comparing atheists to other demographics that aren't atheistic, whether theists in general or particular religions. I could show that atheism doesn't (or does) suck for public safety by comparing atheist crime statistics to the crime statistics of theists or specific theistic groups. We may well suck compared to Jains or Quakers, for instance; but do well against Sunnis and Baptists.

So I was just noting your lack of metrics and context. You could have cited the same incident as another piece of evidence that religion, Africans, judges, government, Sudan, men, or poor countries suck.
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Old 16th May 2014, 09:48 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
Citing something as evidence for 'Islam sucking' with no context is meaningless. I could as easily cite an atheist assaulting a preacher as evicence atheism sucks. Sure, abstractly, atheism has nothing inherent that would cause atheists to tend to act badly, but that doesn't mean there is nothing about being an atheist that leads to anger issues. To defend against the charge, I have to resort to comparing atheists to other demographics that aren't atheistic, whether theists in general or particular religions. I could show that atheism doesn't (or does) suck for public safety by comparing atheist crime statistics to the crime statistics of theists or specific theistic groups. We may well suck compared to Jains or Quakers, for instance; but do well against Sunnis and Baptists.

So I was just noting your lack of metrics and context. You could have cited the same incident as another piece of evidence that religion, Africans, judges, government, Sudan, men, or poor countries suck.
Do you think the world would be a better place if Islam had greater influence in more places?
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Old 16th May 2014, 10:01 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Your blatant intolerance for dissent and your attempts to silence it with baseless ad-homs don't work on a skeptics forum. Try them on somewhere else.
It's not an ad hominem to point out that generalizing the behavior of extremists to the beliefs of non-extremists makes you irrationally intolerant of the entire group. Nor is it intolerant to note that "Islam sucks" is a shallow and hateful "criticism" of what some Muslims have done.
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Old 16th May 2014, 10:27 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
It's not an ad hominem to point out that generalizing the behavior of extremists to the beliefs of non-extremists makes you irrationally intolerant of the entire group. Nor is it intolerant to note that "Islam sucks" is a shallow and hateful "criticism" of what some Muslims have done.
Another bit of irony: The worst Islamofacist regimes learned that they can shut down criticism of their human rights violations by accusing those doing the criticizing of human rights violations. They learned that because Europe and the USA and the rest actually care about human rights, we will take such accusations to heart. Because they do not care about human rights violations, Islamofacist governments simply don't care about such accusations made towards them. The result is that some of the worst human rights violators in the modern world are criticizing some of the countries with the best human rights track records, and the world takes the view that the best countries don't have a leg to stand on.

There are remarkable parallels to this discussion.
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Old 16th May 2014, 10:34 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Some suck. Some don't suck.

I'm not seeing what your point is.
They´re all Muslims. And as our resident "critics" of Islam insist, all Muslims believe in every part of Islam and follow its every command.

Therefore, if Islam is evil, as our resident "critics" of Islam insist, all Muslims must also be evil.

I´m not seeing why you don´t get this.
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Old 16th May 2014, 12:09 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
Citing something as evidence for 'Islam sucking' with no context is meaningless. I could as easily cite an atheist assaulting a preacher as evicence atheism sucks. Sure, abstractly, atheism has nothing inherent that would cause atheists to tend to act badly, but that doesn't mean there is nothing about being an atheist that leads to anger issues. To defend against the charge, I have to resort to comparing atheists to other demographics that aren't atheistic, whether theists in general or particular religions. I could show that atheism doesn't (or does) suck for public safety by comparing atheist crime statistics to the crime statistics of theists or specific theistic groups. We may well suck compared to Jains or Quakers, for instance; but do well against Sunnis and Baptists.

So I was just noting your lack of metrics and context. You could have cited the same incident as another piece of evidence that religion, Africans, judges, government, Sudan, men, or poor countries suck.
The obvious difference is that atheism doesn't have an instruction manual on how to act.
Islam does and it's explicitly anti-apostasy.
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Old 16th May 2014, 12:39 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Ok, so Islam, is fine with apostasy? It's just the Sudanese government that's messed up, right? Islam definitely does not support lashes for adulterers, right? I mean that would be barbaric, it's surely just the Sudanese court that's bonkers?

Ummm. No. The root causes of these problems lie directly in the words of the Koran.
The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment for apostasy, so that kinda shoots your claim down right there.
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Last edited by Cleon; 16th May 2014 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 16th May 2014, 12:45 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Do you think the world would be a better place if Islam had greater influence in more places?
As a general rule, no. Depending on how bad the place is and what brand of Islam it is, greater influence by Islam could be an improvement, but that would be an exception to the rule. The sort of Islam that works on gaining greater influence in a place tends to be the fundamentalist, evangelical kind. I prefer the sort of Islam that works on getting Muslims into this century.
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Old 16th May 2014, 01:32 PM   #50
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Regrettably, it isn't that unclear. Through the glory of wiki we hear:

" The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death, or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind."

(Just as the Koran is utterly clear on the amputation of the hands of thieves).

Religion is bollocks, but Islam is unfortunately in a place to be extra-bollocksy simply because of the monumental level of detail laid out in its 'holy book'. Detail the implications of which can often only be escaped by extreme logical gymnastics.

Islam lite? OK, nice idea in my book, as lite as possible in fact. Leave out the amputation stuff because "it just isn't right". Leave out execution for apostatsy? Damn right, but then it's no longer Islam and our moderate modern Moslem is contradicting the prophet himself. Probably a terrible offence in itself.

As written religions go, it's a bitch. It has such a lot of very clear writing.
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Old 16th May 2014, 01:37 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Regrettably, it isn't that unclear. Through the glory of wiki we hear:

" The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death, or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind."
They might hold to that "traditional view," but it does not come from the Koran. The Koran does not mandate any punishment for apostasy (though apostates will suffer in the afterlife etc).
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Old 16th May 2014, 03:20 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Islam lite? OK, nice idea in my book, as lite as possible in fact. Leave out the amputation stuff because "it just isn't right". Leave out execution for apostatsy? Damn right, but then it's no longer Islam and our moderate modern Moslem is contradicting the prophet himself. Probably a terrible offence in itself.
I am perpetually mystified by the bizarre insistence by many non-Muslims that Islam can only have one interpretation (natch, the most extreme and terrible interpretation possible), and that any Muslims who don't follow that particular interpretation are doing their own religion wrong.

You'd think that if these non-Muslims were against the violent, fundamentalist excesses of Muslim extremists, they'd want to encourage alternate interpretations, rather than doing those extremists' rhetorical work for them in arguing that their version of Islam is the One True Islam and that anyone who says otherwise is an apostate and heretic.
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Old 16th May 2014, 08:47 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
So out of the 50 or so majority-Muslim countries, how many would you expect to have the death penalty for apostacy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St...r_apostasy.svg


ETA: Here are some fun figures contrasting the Bible with the Quran.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...ble_quran.html
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Old 16th May 2014, 09:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment for apostasy, so that kinda shoots your claim down right there.
Problem is, lot's of Muslims know the Korran just as well as do lot's of Christians know the Bibble - and that would be not in any functional way. What they know is what some ******* sucking "preachers" have told them about it in ways designed to promote themselves not the religion.
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Old 16th May 2014, 10:18 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Problem is, lot's of Muslims know the Korran just as well as do lot's of Christians know the Bibble - and that would be not in any functional way. What they know is what some ******* sucking "preachers" have told them about it in ways designed to promote themselves not the religion.
Include in that, in most western countries there are political mechanisms to limit the power of the "******* sucking "preachers" (At least for the present)
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Old 17th May 2014, 03:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Problem is, lot's of Muslims know the Korran just as well as do lot's of Christians know the Bibble - and that would be not in any functional way. What they know is what some ******* sucking "preachers" have told them about it in ways designed to promote themselves not the religion.
Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
Include in that, in most western countries there are political mechanisms to limit the power of the "******* sucking "preachers" (At least for the present)
Could it also have something to do with the fact that most Western countries encourage, even require, that women and children be given the opportunity to learn to read, among other things?
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Old 17th May 2014, 03:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Could it also have something to do with the fact that most Western countries encourage, even require, that women and children be given the opportunity to learn to read, among other things?
Last time I checked diocese and archdiocese across the Western world were declaring bankruptcy because to "**** sucking priests".

So, no near-universal literacy and high levels of education do not seems to have the correlation—let alone causation—that the "critics" of Islam want them to have.
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Old 17th May 2014, 03:59 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Last time I checked diocese and archdiocese across the Western world were declaring bankruptcy because to "**** sucking priests".
What?
Quote:
So, no near-universal literacy and high levels of education do not seems to have the correlation—let alone causation—that the "critics" of Islam want them to have.
I didn't even mention Islam...
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Old 17th May 2014, 04:14 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
What?
Given the decades-long sex abuse scandal plaguing the Roman Catholic Church, I fail to see how any of the proposed differences between Western secular nation and fundamentalist Islamic nations point to any fundamental incompatibility of Islam with Western secularism that distinguishes it from the general incompatibilities of any politicized religion with secularism.

Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
I didn't even mention Islam...
You quoted posts that mentioned Islam and implied that the difference between Islam and Christianity pertains to the fact that nations where Christianity is in the majority have "political mechanisms to limit the power of the "******* sucking 'preachers'"
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Old 17th May 2014, 04:35 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment for apostasy, so that kinda shoots your claim down right there.
'The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment'- really? , This, an argument on JREF from a moderator?

I am frankly stunned by such a response, from
a) a coherent argument, and more importantly
b) from a moderator of the JREF.
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Last edited by Belgian thought; 17th May 2014 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 17th May 2014, 04:36 PM   #61
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[Quran 2:256] "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."

Compulsion
1. the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.
2. an irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, especially against one's conscious wishes.

[Quran 2:62] "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
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Old 17th May 2014, 04:41 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
'The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment'- really? , This, an argument on JREF from a moderator?

I am frankly stunned by such a response, from
a) a coherent argument, and more importantly
b) from a moderator of the JREF.
Here is what Cleon actually wrote:

Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment for apostasy, so that kinda shoots your claim down right there.
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
They might hold to that "traditional view," but it does not come from the Koran. The Koran does not mandate any punishment for apostasy (though apostates will suffer in the afterlife etc).

Last edited by mijopaalmc; 17th May 2014 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 17th May 2014, 04:53 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
[Quran 2:256] "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."

Compulsion
1. the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.
2. an irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, especially against one's conscious wishes.

[Quran 2:62] "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Bollocks

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_...olars:Apostasy


All religions threaten non-believers; it is a necessity for their existence. Plus they are all *****.
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Last edited by Belgian thought; 17th May 2014 at 04:54 PM. Reason: http://forums.randi.org/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=10028485
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Old 17th May 2014, 04:57 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Bollocks

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_...olars:Apostasy


All religions threaten non-believers; it is a necessity for their existence. Plus they are all *****.
Wow, Wiki Islam!

I guess we now know how interested you are in honestly discussing Islam.
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Old 18th May 2014, 04:31 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
'The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment'- really? ,
For apostasy. It's got earthly punishments for all sorts of things, but not apostasy, contrary to earlier claims that it's "written in the Koran." It isn't.

Quote:
This, an argument on JREF from a moderator?

I am frankly stunned by such a response, from
a) a coherent argument, and more importantly
b) from a moderator of the JREF.
I'm very sorry the Quran doesn't say what you want it to say, but that's got nothing to do with my being a moderator.
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Old 18th May 2014, 04:31 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Wow, Wiki Islam!

I guess we now know how interested you are in honestly discussing Islam.
Even they couldn't find a verse in the Koran mandating death for apostasy.
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Old 18th May 2014, 06:39 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Even they couldn't find a verse in the Koran mandating death for apostasy.
Here's one:

Qur'an Surah 4. An-Nisa, Ayah 89 or Qur'an 4:89 [47] states that "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
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Old 18th May 2014, 06:59 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Here's one:

Qur'an Surah 4. An-Nisa, Ayah 89 or Qur'an 4:89 [47] states that "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
Good googling, but had you actually read that Wikipedia article, you'd see why it's out of context. The very next verse (4:90) puts a slightly different spin on it:

Quote:
Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
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Old 18th May 2014, 10:02 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Even they couldn't find a verse in the Koran mandating death for apostasy.
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Good googling, but had you actually read that Wikipedia article, you'd see why it's out of context. The very next verse (4:90) puts a slightly different spin on it:
I found a verse that certainly could be interpreted as death to apostates and apparently many Muslims do interpret it that way and who am I to tell them that they are wrong about their religion.

I go by what people are doing and right now, in this world, a nation is preparing to kill a woman for apostasy and they say they are doing it in the name of Islam, it seems the height of arrogance to tell them that they got it wrong.
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Old 18th May 2014, 10:12 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
For apostasy. It's got earthly punishments for all sorts of things, but not apostasy, contrary to earlier claims that it's "written in the Koran." It isn't.
If it isn't, someone forgot to tell the theocrats in Sudan.
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Old 18th May 2014, 10:15 AM   #71
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
Where has any poster on this thread made that statement?
A couple of posts above yours ...

I don't know how you can be an apostate if you were never a member of the religion, though.

Gosh, apparently Sudan is a messed-up place.
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Old 18th May 2014, 03:22 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I found a verse that certainly could be interpreted as death to apostates and apparently many Muslims do interpret it that way and who am I to tell them that they are wrong about their religion.

I go by what people are doing and right now, in this world, a nation is preparing to kill a woman for apostasy and they say they are doing it in the name of Islam, it seems the height of arrogance to tell them that they got it wrong.
Thank you, Out-of-Context Man! The best type of right technically right.
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Old 18th May 2014, 07:39 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I found a verse that certainly could be interpreted as death to apostates and apparently many Muslims do interpret it that way and who am I to tell them that they are wrong about their religion.

I go by what people are doing and right now, in this world, a nation is preparing to kill a woman for apostasy and they say they are doing it in the name of Islam, it seems the height of arrogance to tell them that they got it wrong.
It's not the height of arrogance. It's the right thing to do.
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Old 19th May 2014, 05:43 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
Last time I checked diocese and archdiocese across the Western world were declaring bankruptcy because to "**** sucking priests".

So, no near-universal literacy and high levels of education do not seems to have the correlation—let alone causation—that the "critics" of Islam want them to have.
mine was 7 letters, not any of the 4 letter ones!!!!!1
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Old 19th May 2014, 07:34 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I suggest they commit suicide in protest of these unIslamic heretics.
I like how you think there and I propose we make it mandatory!~~~
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Old 20th May 2014, 01:04 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
So out of the 50 or so majority-Muslim countries, how many would you expect to have the death penalty for apostacy?

I would expect that reasonable people would be able to recognize the Koran for the vile, wicked, sexist garbage that it is (lest ye accuse me of being an Islamaphobe, let me assure you that I feel exactly the same way about the Bible, the Torah and to a slightly lesser extent, Dianetics).

I'm sure that even without the Koran, stupid people the world over would still find stupid reasons to inflict suffering and pain on other stupid people. In fact, the point proves itself, given how many times we have seen various religions abuse their positions in society to repress or dominate.

None of that detracts from the point, that in this case, in this context, one cannot deny that these laws are inspired by the Koran, or to be charitable to the apologists here, at least inspired by one particular interpretation of the Koran.
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Old 28th May 2014, 10:09 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by mijopaalmc View Post
It's not an ad hominem to point out that generalizing the behavior of extremists to the beliefs of non-extremists makes you irrationally intolerant of the entire group.
It is when that's not what I'm doing.

Quote:
Nor is it intolerant to note that "Islam sucks" is a shallow and hateful "criticism" of what some Muslims have done.
Yes it is.

All you have are strawmen, and name-calling and they don't cover-up your blatant intolerance for skeptical thinking and secularism.
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Old 28th May 2014, 10:14 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
I´m not seeing why you don´t get this.
It's probably because I haven't drank the SJW kool-aid.
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Old 28th May 2014, 10:16 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
As a general rule, no. Depending on how bad the place is and what brand of Islam it is, greater influence by Islam could be an improvement, but that would be an exception to the rule. The sort of Islam that works on gaining greater influence in a place tends to be the fundamentalist, evangelical kind. I prefer the sort of Islam that works on getting Muslims into this century.
Then you agree with me. You're only too afraid of the thought-police to say so.
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Old 28th May 2014, 10:35 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I go by what people are doing and right now, in this world, a nation is preparing to kill a woman for apostasy and they say they are doing it in the name of Islam, it seems the height of arrogance to tell them that they got it wrong.
This is how it works. If the "interpretation" of Islam leads to beliefs and behaviors that are inconvenient for the SJW's, then the Muslims are "interpreting" the text wrong. However, if the "interpretation" lets SJW's claim that Islam is indeed the Religion of Peace(TM), then the "interpretation" is right.
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