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Tags apostasy incidents , Islam incidents , Sudan incidents , Sudan issues

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Old 30th May 2014, 05:09 AM   #121
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Good googling, but had you actually read that Wikipedia article, you'd see why it's out of context. The very next verse (4:90) puts a slightly different spin on it:
The problem is, despite the Quran supposedly being the inerrant word of the prophet and unchanged since it was first written (not true, as earlier, variant copies have been found) people do still interpret it differently. Even the 'get out of jail' you had for the gotcha that demanded death for unbelievers is open to interpretation - who decides whether they have 'turned back to enmity' for instance? Would continuing to 'disagree' with Islam be enmity? Also who judges whether they have properly conformed to the subsequent verse - does it mean not openly opposing or do they have to eg leave the country to live in another country that has a formal treaty with the one they left? I'm not sure it really softens the 'take them and kill them wherever ye find them' line which is pretty damn explicit.

Also other verses such as:

9:73-74 If they repent it will be better for them; and if they turn away, Allah will afflict them with a painful doom in the world and the Hereafter, and they have no protecting friend nor helper in the earth.

and

88:21-24 Therefore do remind, for you are only a reminder. You are not a watcher over them; But whoever turns back and disbelieves, Allah will chastise him with the greatest chastisement.

Allow the very common religious interpretation of 'I am the hand of Allah / god / other mythical being in this world and therefore will carry out his punishment. Not specific to Islam of course but certainly enough ammo in the Quran (as in the Bible) for such people to justify their actions.

As another poster (sort of) said, if the Quran simply said 'Leave them alone, it's their loss' there'd be no problem.

Oh and I'm not an Islamophobe but I am a religionphobe.
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Old 30th May 2014, 10:56 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by NearlySane View Post
Indeed I struggle with this idea that there is a thing called Islam that is bad. Religions and ideologies do not exist outside of the individuals who practice them and we can see that the beliefs of those involved in religion change over time.
Putting Islam aside for the moment- do you struggle with the idea that there is a thing called Nazism that is bad? Since ideologies do not exist outside of the individuals who practice them and ideologies (as well as theologies) change over time and all of that?
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Old 30th May 2014, 03:23 PM   #123
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As an aside - her husband is apparently a U.S. citizen. This case has been widely publicised in the UK, has it been in the US, and is anything being done about it by the government? I have in UK and European news seen little response.
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Old 31st May 2014, 09:33 AM   #124
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The woman and her children are to be freed in 'the next few days' according to the BBC quoting a senior Sudanese official. No link yet as it's just a newsflash on my phone, and the website only has it as a scrolling headline with no link to the story.
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Old 31st May 2014, 01:18 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
The woman and her children are to be freed in 'the next few days' according to the BBC quoting a senior Sudanese official. No link yet as it's just a newsflash on my phone, and the website only has it as a scrolling headline with no link to the story.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27651483
Quote:
Sudanese authorities are to free a woman who was sentenced to death for having abandoned the Islamic faith, a foreign ministry official says.

Meriam Ibrahim, who gave birth to a daughter in custody, will be freed in a few days, the official told the BBC.

Abdullahi Alzareg, an under-secretary at the foreign ministry, said Sudan guaranteed religious freedom and was committed to protecting the woman.
I guess that's why it only took global outrage before they realized that.
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Old 31st May 2014, 02:54 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27651483

I guess that's why it only took global outrage before they realized that.
That is such good news - I was really depressed by all of this. The depth of human stupidity I suppose. I actually cheered...
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Old 5th June 2014, 04:10 AM   #127
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What matters is what the given followers, their book-voice scholars and community movers believe and enforce. And its all resting on actual traditions found in the same darn texts. It doesn't really matter what you, personally, can hamstring-fiddle out of the Koran yourself as to what means 'this' or 'that', it really doesn't.
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Old 5th June 2014, 11:54 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
The Koran does not mandate any earthly punishment for apostasy, so that kinda shoots your claim down right there.
The Hadiths however are very clear that the penalty for apostasy is death. The Quran is not the only Islamic religious texts. The Hadiths are also important. One would think that "enlightened" non-Islamophobes would know that...
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Old 5th June 2014, 03:08 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
The Hadiths however are very clear that the penalty for apostasy is death. The Quran is not the only Islamic religious texts. The Hadiths are also important. One would think that "enlightened" non-Islamophobes would know that...
Muslims believe the Quran to be revelation (direct, although transmitted through the angel Gabriel) from God.

Hadith or "tradition" are the recorded sayings and deeds of Muhammad (saw).

Whatever is found in the Hadith does not overrule anything which is found in the Quran. One would think that any "enlightened" Islamophobe would already know this .
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Old 5th June 2014, 03:34 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Humes fork View Post
The Hadiths however are very clear that the penalty for apostasy is death. The Quran is not the only Islamic religious texts. The Hadiths are also important. One would think that "enlightened" non-Islamophobes would know that...
Different hadiths are followed by different Muslims, with some Muslims not following any hadith at all.

One would think that an "enlightened" Islamophobe would know that.
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Old 5th June 2014, 05:22 PM   #131
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adith 1, hadith 2, or hadith n+1 or hadith = 0 seems to imply that the word of god in the original format, was not as foolproof. What a stupid god, you would at least expect some clarity of thought from such an amazing being... Interestingly the same errors occur in the bible. But boy does he (she?) move in mysterious ways.

Or is it this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GkK8wS2WWc ?
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Old 6th June 2014, 07:05 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
Muslims believe the Quran to be revelation (direct, although transmitted through the angel Gabriel) from God.

Hadith or "tradition" are the recorded sayings and deeds of Muhammad (saw).

Whatever is found in the Hadith does not overrule anything which is found in the Quran. One would think that any "enlightened" Islamophobe would already know this .
The Quran doesn't explicitly state that there should be no punishment for apostasy though, so any punishment suggested in the Hadith wouldn't contradict canon.
Sahih al-Bukhari contains one of the death penalty quotes and it's seen as one of the core Hadith.
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Old 6th June 2014, 07:57 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Then you agree with me. You're only too afraid of the thought-police to say so.
Yeah, that must be why I didn't make the post you're responding to, I'm too afraid of the scary thought police.

I care about the things I say actually being true, so I'm careful about what I say. That you think that makes me fearful of judgement from strangers on the internet says way more about you than it does about me.
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Old 6th June 2014, 08:05 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Yes it is. We've already established that it is. Who are you to tell Muslims they are wrong?
Who are you, to tell them they're right?
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Old 6th June 2014, 08:12 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27651483

I guess that's why it only took global outrage before they realized that.
I hope she can join her husband in New Hampshire as soon as possible...I don't think she will be safe in Sudan.
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Old 6th June 2014, 08:15 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
adith 1, hadith 2, or hadith n+1 or hadith = 0 seems to imply that the word of god in the original format, was not as foolproof. What a stupid god, you would at least expect some clarity of thought from such an amazing being... Interestingly the same errors occur in the bible. But boy does he (she?) move in mysterious ways.
Hadiths are not considered the word of God, period. They are significant in the way the writings of the early Orthodox Church fathers are. Of course, the Koran isn't really the word of God either, but there's actually a point to highlighting that.
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Old 7th June 2014, 01:53 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
The Quran doesn't explicitly state that there should be no punishment for apostasy though, so any punishment suggested in the Hadith wouldn't contradict canon.
Sahih al-Bukhari contains one of the death penalty quotes and it's seen as one of the core Hadith.
Which is probably one of the reasons for it being, historically, a (if not 'the') prevalent interpretation concerning apostasy and attached punishment.
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Old 8th June 2014, 09:13 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Dissolution View Post
The Quran doesn't explicitly state that there should be no punishment for apostasy though, so any punishment suggested in the Hadith wouldn't contradict canon.
Sahih al-Bukhari contains one of the death penalty quotes and it's seen as one of the core Hadith.
I think that you may have missed the earlier post, which I thought to be quite clear.

Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
[Quran 2:256] "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things."

Compulsion
1. the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.
2. an irresistible urge to behave in a certain way, especially against one's conscious wishes.

[Quran 2:62] "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
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Old 8th June 2014, 10:00 AM   #139
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Sorry, she is still fighting for her life
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-9508004.html
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Old 8th June 2014, 11:33 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
I think that you may have missed the earlier post, which I thought to be quite clear.
Wrong and wrong. Sorry.
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Old 8th June 2014, 11:36 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Sorry, she is still fighting for her life
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-9508004.html
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Old 8th June 2014, 11:49 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I saw post 135 and wanted to see if there is any followup.
I hoped maybe she got out of the country
Nope
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Old 23rd June 2014, 12:58 PM   #143
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Islamophobia Triumphs! Christian Apostate Sentenced to Die is Freed in Sudan

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/23/world/...n-woman-freed/

Quote:
A Sudanese woman who had been sentenced to death because she declined to renounce her Christian faith has been freed, her lawyer said Monday.

Meriam Yehya Ibrahim, 27, reunited with her husband after getting out of custody, said her lawyer, Mohaned Mustafa El-Nour. An appeals court found that an initial judgment against her was faulty, he said.

He declined to elaborate.

Ibrahim was convicted of apostasy, or the renunciation of faith, and sentenced to die by hanging in May while she was eight months pregnant. In addition to the death sentence, the court convicted her of adultery and sentenced her to 100 lashes.
Good news. I just hope life doesn't become unbearable for this family after this ordeal. Of course, if she had been tolerate of Islam like she was supposed to, she would have never been in danger. The Islamphobes win...this time.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 01:30 PM   #144
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Someone will have to explain to me very slowly and very simply how the release of a non-Moslem from jail for any offence whatsoever is a triumph for those with an exaggerated fear of Islam. Until then, I can't see any link with islamaphobia whatsoever.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 01:58 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Someone will have to explain to me very slowly and very simply how the release of a non-Moslem from jail for any offence whatsoever is a triumph for those with an exaggerated fear of Islam. Until then, I can't see any link with islamaphobia whatsoever.
It is a jab at those who consider any criticism, skepticism or resistance towards Islam to be "Islamophobia". This is linked to that kind of Islamphobia because the woman in question resisted Islam.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 02:23 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Putting Islam aside for the moment- do you struggle with the idea that there is a thing called Nazism that is bad? Since ideologies do not exist outside of the individuals who practice them and ideologies (as well as theologies) change over time and all of that?
Unsurprisingly, everyone dodged that one.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 02:31 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Right. Some atheists have better BS (which "tradition" is) detectors than others.
If your version of a BS detector is painting all religious believers with the same broad brush then you need another BS detector.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 02:50 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If your version of a BS detector is painting all religious believers with the same broad brush then you need another BS detector.
It's a good thing I didn't do that then.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 02:56 PM   #149
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I think we need to get her and her husband out of the country as fast as possible
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Old 23rd June 2014, 02:56 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
Yeah, that must be why I didn't make the post you're responding to, I'm too afraid of the scary thought police.
They're not scary. They're actually very pathetic. But you are afraid of being on the receiving end of their demagoguery.

Quote:
I care about the things I say actually being true, so I'm careful about what I say.
So do I.

Quote:
That you think that makes me fearful of judgement from strangers on the internet says way more about you than it does about me.
Right. It says that I'm not going to kow-tow to internet fascists with a Religiously Correct agenda.

Quote:
Who are you, to tell them they're right?
Huh?
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Old 23rd June 2014, 02:59 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
I think we need to get her and her husband out of the country as fast as possible
Her husband is an American citizen, which (along with the high profile of this case) will hopefully allow that to be expedited.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 03:10 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Chaos View Post
FGM is a part of a part of Islam. THAT is what we established.
Keep moving those goal posts.

Quote:
More specifically, it is a part of a culture that overlaps, to a degree, with Islam.

Why can you not accept that fact?
I can accept it. What I don't accept is apologist BS that sanctimoniously tries to white wash the facts in the name of not offending people. Why can't you accept that Islam, like every other religion, has played a great role in perpetuating injustices?
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Old 23rd June 2014, 04:42 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said anything about Muslims sucking.
OK, but why did the thread title start out with Islamophobe in the title?
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Old 23rd June 2014, 04:44 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
So out of the 50 or so majority-Muslim countries, how many would you expect to have the death penalty for apostacy?
Those with Sunni rule, as a guess.
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Old 23rd June 2014, 05:59 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
That is not defending the extremists. That is attacking the generalization.

Extremist fundamentalist Muslims who attack and kill people? Evil.
Islam? Not any more evil than any other religion.

Apostasy being a crime currently punishable by death? Evil.
Apostasy being listed in religious texts as a crime punishable by death, but no one in the country actually follows? Disappointing, I guess.
This issue that gets overlooked is that's it's really secularism vs political religious ideology. At this moment in history, countries whose politics are controlled by Islamic ideology are poop-holes when it comes to basic civil rights. This is why Islam has such a bad PR image in the west. A thousand years ago that wasn't the case. At that time it was countries whose politics were controlled by Christian ideology that were the among the worse poop-holes for civil rights. That doesn't mean there are not people wouldn't like to turn the US or Europe into a Christianized version of Iran.
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Old 24th June 2014, 09:05 AM   #156
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If I might interrupt the Islamophobe pity-party for a moment.

Sudan death row woman Meriam Ibrahim 'detained'

Quote:
A Sudanese woman freed from death row on Monday has been detained with her family at Khartoum airport, sources have told the BBC.

Meriam Ibrahim was sentenced in May to hang for renouncing Islam, sparking widespread outrage at home and abroad.

About 40 security agents detained Mrs Ibrahim - along with her husband, Daniel Wani and two children - at the airport, the sources said.

A top Sudanese official has told the BBC she would be freed "soon".

Abdullahi Alzareg from the ministry of foreign affairs told the BBC's Newshour programme that Mrs Ibrahim had been arrested because she did not have the correct travel documents.

[...]

The National Intelligence and Security Service (NISS) is an extremely powerful body, which frequently intervenes in Sudanese politics.

It is a key part of the informal coalition - also comprising the military, Islamists and pragmatists - which rules Sudan.

The different components are constantly jockeying for a better position.

In recent times, NISS has been flexing its muscles.

It is very possible that NISS did not like the decision to release Meriam Ibrahim, and re-arresting her and her family was a way of making this point to the rest of the Sudanese government.

However, security is not a homogenous entity either.

It is also conceivable that one part of NISS accepted Mrs Ibrahim's release, while another section was not happy with it.

Mrs Ibrahim's release and re-arrest simply underlines the fact that there are many decision-makers in Sudanese politics, and they do not always agree with each other.
What the ****, Sudan.
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Old 24th June 2014, 10:31 AM   #157
trustbutverify
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
What the ****, Sudan.
Well, this is Sudan we're talking about here.

Quote:
In this year’s Worst of the Worst report, nine countries were identified by Freedom House as being the world’s worst human rights abusers in calendar year 2011: Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan.
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Old 25th June 2014, 05:09 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post



What the ****, Sudan Islam.
ftfy
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Old 25th June 2014, 05:42 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
ftfy
You Isslamaphobe.
Just because it was the Religious Police that re-arrested her, violating their country's court orders, doesn't mean it was a religious arrest. Not all Islamics are like that.

ETA:
oh, yeah. Christians do it too. Or Would. If they could. Or if they were so inclined. But they did do it 500 years ago, so there!
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Old 25th June 2014, 05:55 PM   #160
A'isha
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
You Isslamaphobe.
Just because it was the Religious Police that re-arrested her, violating their country's court orders, doesn't mean it was a religious arrest. Not all Islamics are like that.
It wasn't the "Religious Police" that rearrested her. But why let facts get in the way of a good rant, right?
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