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Tags apostasy incidents , Islam incidents , Sudan incidents , Sudan issues

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Old 26th June 2014, 10:05 AM   #161
Mister Agenda
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Unsurprisingly, everyone dodged that one.
Or thought it was too stupid to merit response. Naziism bad. Wahabbism (or fundamentalist strain of Islam that attracts extremists of your choice) bad. Germans not bad. Muslims (fill in the blank if you're smart enough).
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Old 28th June 2014, 01:53 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
Or thought it was too stupid to merit response. Naziism bad. Wahabbism (or fundamentalist strain of Islam that attracts extremists of your choice) bad. Germans not bad. Muslims (fill in the blank if you're smart enough).
A faulty comparison. Naziism was a German brand of Fascism. There were many other. Italian, Spanish, French even British etc. You get the idea.

The underpinning of the fascist belief is its ideology. Personally I would not use Naziism as a comparative to Islamism. It was the most destructive and corrupt perversion of the human spirit in the history of mankind.

What I do want is to question and to ask by what authority did the Sudanese draw on to imprison this woman ?
What would have happened to the woman if it hadn't been reported in the West?
Will the law now change to prevent it happening again ?

Last edited by raff55; 28th June 2014 at 01:55 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 28th June 2014, 11:36 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
Or thought it was too stupid to merit response. Naziism bad. Wahabbism (or fundamentalist strain of Islam that attracts extremists of your choice) bad. Germans not bad. Muslims (fill in the blank if you're smart enough).
I get your point, but the comparison is flawed. It would be: Islam is to Wahhabi-ism as Fascism is to Nazism (not ...as German is to Nazism).
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Old 28th June 2014, 06:11 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
I get your point, but the comparison is flawed. It would be: Islam is to Wahhabi-ism as Fascism is to Nazism (not ...as German is to Nazism).
Islam as a whole is no more analogous to fascism than any other world religion. Unless you're arguing that it's possible for people to be peaceful, moral fascists as long as they avoid the more extreme types of fascism, such as Nazism.
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Old 28th June 2014, 08:48 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Islam as a whole is no more analogous to fascism than any other world religion. Unless you're arguing that it's possible for people to be peaceful, moral fascists as long as they avoid the more extreme types of fascism, such as Nazism.
You're misreading my comment. I'm not arguing fascism is analogous to Islam...I'm arguing for consistent group-to-subgroup comparisons. Nazi, in the context of the post I was replying to, is not a subgroup of German; it's a subgroup of fascist... as Wahhabi is a subgroup of Islam.
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Old 29th June 2014, 04:17 AM   #166
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'Islam as a whole is no more analogous to fascism than any other world religion.'

Yes I agree, in potential it isn't.

' Unless you're arguing that it's possible for people to be peaceful, moral fascists as long as they avoid the more extreme types of fascism, such as Nazism. '

That is a very interesting point and one that needs exploring.
Is there any level of silent acquiescence ?
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Old 29th June 2014, 04:35 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Islam as a whole is no more analogous to fascism than any other world religion.
Islam as a whole is no more analogous to fascism than any other world religion and ideology and patriotism..
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Old 29th June 2014, 04:10 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Islam as a whole is no more analogous to fascism than any other world religion. Unless you're arguing that it's possible for people to be peaceful, moral fascists as long as they avoid the more extreme types of fascism, such as Nazism.
Actually, I think it probably is quite possible for someone to be a peaceful, moderate fascist who is not personally violent but who considers himself to be of superior racial stock or from a country that is better than all other countries.
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Old 29th June 2014, 05:14 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
ETA:
oh, yeah. Christians do it too. Or Would. If they could. Or if they were so inclined. But they did do it 500 years ago, so there!
Not really 500 years ago.. more like up to 70~80 years ago
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Old 29th June 2014, 07:27 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
You're misreading my comment. I'm not arguing fascism is analogous to Islam...I'm arguing for consistent group-to-subgroup comparisons. Nazi, in the context of the post I was replying to, is not a subgroup of German; it's a subgroup of fascist... as Wahhabi is a subgroup of Islam.
Then you should have said this in the first place. Regardless, thank you for clearing that up.
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Old 30th June 2014, 01:50 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Then you should have said this in the first place. Regardless, thank you for clearing that up.
Then do you agree that it is a faulty comparison ?
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Old 30th June 2014, 06:11 AM   #172
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I suppose it's a very faulty comparison if the point was not that it is invalid to judge a larger group based on a sub-group within it.
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Old 30th June 2014, 06:20 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Mister Agenda View Post
I suppose it's a very faulty comparison if the point was not that it is invalid to judge a larger group based on a sub-group within it.
Yes I agree with you.

For instance basing modern day Germany's neo-Nazis as indicative of the today's German community would be wrong. But it would be remiss not to question its source, history and nature.
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Old 30th June 2014, 07:58 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by KumarS View Post
Not really 500 years ago.. more like up to 70~80 years ago
Yeah. I remember trading about all those people who were born Christian sentenced to the chair in the 1930's and 40's for becoming atheist, Jewish and Buddist...
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Old 10th July 2014, 07:18 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Islam as a whole is no more analogous to fascism than any other world religion.
I.e, in the notable absence of successful secularisation and humanitarianism, the abbrahemic world-religions are all inherently fascistic and totalitarian. At the moment, they're just not equally bad. Why not? Well, because of secularisation and progression of humanitarian values (Islam is, if possible, currently the worst one of the three as it is).
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Old 10th July 2014, 07:42 AM   #176
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Sorry but the important issue is that she is still being detained
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/08/us/new...udanese-woman/
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Old 10th July 2014, 09:24 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Sorry but the important issue is that she is still being detained
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/08/us/new...udanese-woman/
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:ma d:
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Old 10th July 2014, 09:49 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Yeah. I remember trading about all those people who were born Christian sentenced to the chair in the 1930's and 40's for becoming atheist, Jewish and Buddist...
Nay!
Burned by the KKK as "*******"

Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Sorry but the important issue is that she is still being detained
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/08/us/new...udanese-woman/
So what? She is still alive, right?

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Old 10th July 2014, 10:59 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:ma d:
Kind on my issue. . .Let her go and thins largely goes away as a problem for Sudan
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Old 10th July 2014, 11:27 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by KumarS View Post
So what? She is still alive, right?
Did you just say 'So what?'. You're jesting, right?
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Old 10th July 2014, 12:22 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Kind on my issue. . .Let her go and thins largely goes away as a problem for Sudan
Indeed. And: don't do it again. But the current treatment clearly suggests they'll try again next time with another victim.
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Old 10th July 2014, 09:13 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Indeed. And: don't do it again. But the current treatment clearly suggests they'll try again next time with another victim.
Yep, more bullying butt boys needing a good machine gun enema............
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Old 10th July 2014, 10:30 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Jono View Post
I.e, in the notable absence of successful secularisation and humanitarianism, the abbrahemic world-religions are all inherently fascistic and totalitarian. At the moment, they're just not equally bad. Why not? Well, because of secularisation and progression of humanitarian values (Islam is, if possible, currently the worst one of the three as it is).
If you examine present day countries whose politics are dominated by Islamic religious ideology this would appear to be true. Turkey appears to be the most secular of Islamic states and it's nothing to brag about.
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Old 13th July 2014, 10:20 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by KumarS View Post
Nay!
Burned by the KKK as "*******"



So what? She is still alive, right?
And the laws of the land required this?
If we have to explain the difference between Government sanctioned killings and rogue racists taking the law into their own hands to you, You're in the wrong place.
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Old 16th July 2014, 05:48 PM   #185
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Folks, if one is going to cite Al Quran, and then discuss something that is being done in a Muslim society in the current tense, one really ought to investigate which Ha'dith (or set/combination thereof) is most commonly approved or advocated in that society. There's a bit more to Islam in practice than Al Quran, though it is surely a pillar/foundation of the faith and its practice.

I've got a few more years of reading and study on that matter before I'll even think of commenting further. It's complicated.
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Old 18th July 2014, 02:50 PM   #186
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Meanwhile ISIS in Iraq makes the government of Sudan look like freaking moderates....


http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/18/world/...ned/index.html
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Old 24th July 2014, 06:50 AM   #187
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Mariam Ishaq has successfully left Sudan, with the assistance of the Italian government.
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Old 24th July 2014, 08:08 AM   #188
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Thanks, A'isha, I'm glad she is safe and hope she gets to join her husband in America soon. I wonder what it will be like for her to be one of the world's most famous refugees?
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Old 24th July 2014, 09:44 AM   #189
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Read some sources which seem to indicate that she met the pope.
Something makes me thing the Catholic Church had something to do with this as well.
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Old 27th July 2014, 01:19 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Read some sources which seem to indicate that she met the pope.
Something makes me thing the Catholic Church had something to do with this as well.
Well, as has been stated already, the Italian government helped out.
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Old 28th July 2014, 02:03 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Actually, I think it probably is quite possible for someone to be a peaceful, moderate fascist who is not personally violent but who considers himself to be of superior racial stock or from a country that is better than all other countries.
Indeed. Would the existence of such an individual belie any and every assertion about Naziism being a violent/bad/evil ideology?
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Old 28th July 2014, 07:02 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Indeed. Would the existence of such an individual belie any and every assertion about Naziism being a violent/bad/evil ideology?
No, because it's always stupid to generalize about an entire group based on how a tiny minority of them behaves. But I'm sure you already knew that.
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Old 28th July 2014, 07:35 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Actually, I think it probably is quite possible for someone to be a peaceful, moderate fascist who is not personally violent but who considers himself to be of superior racial stock or from a country that is better than all other countries.
Interesting you bring this up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:20 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
No.
Then why is it different with religion (which has inspired way more violence than fascism)?

Quote:
because it's always stupid to generalize about an entire group...
Yes it is. I have no idea why you think you need to say this though.
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Old 29th July 2014, 11:01 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
No, because it's always stupid to generalize about an entire group based on how a tiny minority of them behaves. But I'm sure you already knew that.
You mean like gun owners?
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Old 29th July 2014, 12:19 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
You mean like gun owners?
Yes, it is stupid to generalize about all gun owners based on what a few of them do, unless the generalization is something like 'they all own guns' or 'they're all mammals'.
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Old 29th July 2014, 07:05 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Then why is it different with religion (which has inspired way more violence than fascism)?
Religion is often the post-hoc justification for the actual motivations for violence, which include politics, territoriality, tribalism, and fighting over limited resources. Remove religion from the equation and people would still find stupid reasons to kill each other over mud. So no, I don't simply blame religion for all the world's problems. Believe it or not, there are some atheists who don't walk around with raging hate-boners for religion.
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:35 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Interesting you bring this up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe
And conversely:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiune_Sugihara
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Old 30th July 2014, 03:52 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Interesting you bring this up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
They are not precisely analogous. Rabe specifically was a member of the Nazi party. There were plenty within Germany / Germans who were against the treatment of Jews. My favorite actually is Albert Goering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_G%C3%B6ring
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Old 30th July 2014, 06:58 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
They are not precisely analogous. Rabe specifically was a member of the Nazi party.
I fully concede that, but AFAIK, there was no Japanese equivalent to the Nazi party as a "mark" if someone held the racist views espoused by the military regime. I mentioned Sugihara primarily to show how the Axis powers didn't agree on each others' views of who exactly the "Untermenschen" were, and both had elements in their government who actively sabotaged the other power's efforts to exterminate them.

Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
There were plenty within Germany / Germans who were against the treatment of Jews. My favorite actually is Albert Goering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_G%C3%B6ring
Thank you, I didn't know about him. That's chutzpah, "arrest me if you dare, I'm the brother of the Reichsmarschall".
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