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Tags joe biden , media bias charges , political gaffes

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Old 25th February 2015, 10:43 AM   #161
sunmaster14
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This may be the funniest comment of the thread.

Just to be clear, you're concerned about the media having a double standard when portraying actions of people from one party more harshly than those same actions from members of the other party, right? Do you detect any irony here?
Irony? No. Contradiction? No. Perhaps you can explain. Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior. A one-off faux pas is simply nowhere near as bad.
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Old 25th February 2015, 10:50 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Sure, but Cheney is the nearest corollary. Other politicians (except two in the last decade and a half or so) have less political stature and less individually important positions in the government. The media might treat a local state rep with less importance than the VP of the US based on their sheer difference in national relevance. The more differences you introduce between the people you are comparing, the less likely you can pin the difference on a single attribute, like political party.
Except for the fact that both Cheney and Biden are old white men who have been VPs and have served in Congress, they are diametric opposites. Cheney is smart; Biden is dumb. Cheney is cold and ruthless; Biden is warm and sympathetic; Cheney is articulate; Biden is a gaffe machine. Cheney probably doesn't even like to touch himself; Biden will grab anything that's warm and too slow to get away. I would much rather have a beer with Biden, although I would keep my wife and daughter far away from him.
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Old 25th February 2015, 10:52 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Irony? No. Contradiction? No. Perhaps you can explain. Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior. A one-off faux pas is simply nowhere near as bad.
Okay, let me point it out to you:
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I don't remember what the US media's reaction was. I do remember Bush being called a clown or worse in the European media. Bush's thing was a one-off, though, not a pattern of behavior. In addition, none of us are privy to Merkel's and Bush's relationship. They obviously had worked together on many previous occasions, and although Merkel's reaction indicated that Bush's intimacy was unwelcome, her reaction could just as easily have been due to surprise. For all we know, he had given her consensual shoulder massages before.
You condemn the media for treating one political party harsher than another, but then you've gone out of your way to rationalize the inappropriate behavior of one politician, but you deny the same benefit of the doubt to another, all because of their party affiliation.

In other words, you have demonstrated the same bias you complained of (without evidence) in others.

Hm. Is that irony or just simply hypocrisy?
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Old 25th February 2015, 10:57 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior.
Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic.
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Old 25th February 2015, 11:06 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic.
Your blatantly partisan hackery is making you misread the statistic. What the study concluded was that Biden creepy touched twenty percent of each Congresswoman. He groped 100% of the total, but only 20% of each of their persons. Do try to be more fair to the man in future.
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Old 25th February 2015, 11:06 AM   #166
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Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children?
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Old 25th February 2015, 11:07 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children?
It's one slippery sloped step from that to 'do you like gladiator movies?'
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Old 25th February 2015, 11:08 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children?
It wasn't the pushups themselves, it was his massive erection.
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Old 25th February 2015, 11:10 AM   #169
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I'm increasingly reminded of Sybil Fawlty declaring 'I've heard of this, they call it the male menopause'.
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Old 25th February 2015, 11:11 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Okay, let me point it out to you:

You condemn the media for treating one political party harsher than another, but then you've gone out of your way to rationalize the inappropriate behavior of one politician, but you deny the same benefit of the doubt to another, all because of their party affiliation.

In other words, you have demonstrated the same bias you complained of (without evidence) in others.

Hm. Is that irony or just simply hypocrisy?
Why do you say that it is because of their party affiliation? I gave a perfectly valid reason. In Bush's case it was a one-time faux pas. For one event or one person, it's plausible that there exists some level of friendliness or intimacy of which the public is unaware. This is not the case for a pattern of sexual harrassment. There is no way that Biden was on intimate terms with that many women and girls, many of whom had only recently entered the public sphere.
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Old 25th February 2015, 11:16 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic.
It is interesting that according to recent Department of Education guidelines, Biden would likely have been charged with sexual harassment and expelled from law school for his treatment of Stephanie Carter, assuming he had not already been expelled for plagiarism.
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Old 25th February 2015, 12:25 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Why do you say that it is because of their party affiliation?
Because there is no other reasonable explanation.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I gave a perfectly valid reason. In Bush's case it was a one-time faux pas. For one event or one person, it's plausible that there exists some level of friendliness or intimacy of which the public is unaware.
Plausible, but not likely. And not a valid reason, more like unlikely speculation.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
This is not the case for a pattern of sexual harrassment. There is no way that Biden was on intimate terms with that many women and girls, many of whom had only recently entered the public sphere.
Pattern of sexual harrassment based on a few cherry-picked photographs with no context what-so-ever? (and a few that you'd have to stretch the imagination to even come up with a reason why they are inappropriate?)

The whole thing is pure conjecture. Your "reasons" are founded on on your political biases, which apparently is okay for you, but not for others.
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Old 25th February 2015, 12:49 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Does anyone believe that the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch?
I don't remember what the US media's reaction was. [snip rationalization]
Since you didn't explicitly answer the question, you don't know if the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch?
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Old 25th February 2015, 01:19 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Since you didn't explicitly answer the question, you don't know if the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch?
Looks like it was kind of a big deal when Bush gave Merkel the business.

Quote:
In the US, meanwhile, a debate has broken out as to whether giving a back rub amounts to sexual harassment. Was the massage just a harmless bit of fun between two equally powerful leaders? Or was it a deeply unacceptable example of workplace sexual abuse? Several websites have dubbed Bush the "groper in chief", while the Democratic politician Martha Whetstone has expressed outrage. She told the San Francisco Chronicle: "You could use the clip as part of a teaching video on sexual harassment. You'd show people and tell them: 'Nobody in a position of authority should do something like that'."
Personally, I think Biden's harassment of Stephanie Carter was much, much worse than what Bush did to Merkel, and he has been acting like that for a long time without nary a peep in the mainstream media (starting finally to get some peeps now though).
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Old 25th February 2015, 01:27 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Looks like it was kind of a big deal when Bush gave Merkel the business.
And...?


Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Personally, I think Biden's harassment of Stephanie Carter was much, much worse than what Bush did to Merkel
Of course, you do.

Why?
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Old 25th February 2015, 01:36 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Of course, you do.
"Of course"? Please tell me you're not trying to personalize the debate.

Quote:
Why?
Because it went on for much longer and was part of a documented pattern of such behavior?

Surely the proposition that Joe Biden behaves badly can be debated on its own merits. After all, it's not like anyone here owes Biden an partisan defense, right?

Right?
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Old 25th February 2015, 01:50 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Of course"? Please tell me you're not trying to personalize the debate.
Not personalizing. Just pointing out that he's doing the same thing he's accusing others of doing. It's much worse because it's Biden. If it had been Bush, he might have speculated that none of know what kind of relationship he and Stephanie Carter have. It could have been a consensual standing there with his hands on her shoulders.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Because it went on for much longer and was part of a documented pattern of such behavior?
Carter didn't shrug him off and "documented" is a bit of hyperbole.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Surely the proposition that Joe Biden behaves badly can be debated on its own merits.
It can be and I happen to agree that he's been creepy. I don't agree with sunmaster14's concerns of media favoritism.
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Old 25th February 2015, 01:52 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Except for the fact that both Cheney and Biden are old white men who have been VPs and have served in Congress, they are diametric opposites. Cheney is smart; Biden is dumb. Cheney is cold and ruthless; Biden is warm and sympathetic; Cheney is articulate; Biden is a gaffe machine. Cheney probably doesn't even like to touch himself; Biden will grab anything that's warm and too slow to get away. I would much rather have a beer with Biden, although I would keep my wife and daughter far away from him.
Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism, the lives of nobody even knows how many Iraqis, trillions of dollars, and the goodwill of the world. Not to mention the fact that Saddam kept Islamists in line. Altogether, a monumental blunder. Like one of the worst decisions ever made by any American.

He also is responsible for CIA's illegal, disgusting, and ineffective torture regime which probably caused more damage to the US's reputation than was inflicted upon al Qaeda because of it.

I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again. Frankly, one of Obama's biggest failures is that Cheney isn't in prison. Not only does justice require it, but failing to deliver justice means that others are more likely to repeat the behavior as precedent will dictate that they won't be held personally responsible for their crimes.



I'll take Biden, no contest over the psychopath war criminal that is proud of the massive damage he is responsible for. Hell, I would take Sarah Palin and she's about the biggest joke in the GOP.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 25th February 2015 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 25th February 2015, 01:55 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note.


Quote:
Of course, you do.

Why?
Because it lasted less than two seconds, Bush and Merkel were friends, and Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat. She also smiled afterwards. Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:01 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism, the lives of nobody even knows how many Iraqis, trillions of dollars, and the goodwill of the world. Not to mention the fact that Saddam kept Islamists in line. Altogether, a monumental blunder. Like one of the worst decisions ever made by any American.

He also is responsible for CIA's illegal, disgusting, and ineffective torture regime which probably caused more damage to the US's reputation than was inflicted upon al Qaeda because of it.

I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again. Frankly, one of Obama's biggest failures is that Cheney isn't in prison. Not only does justice require it, but failing to deliver justice means that others are more likely to repeat the behavior as precedent will dictate that they won't be held personally responsible for their crimes.
Does that mean you'd rather have a beer with Cheney?

Quote:
I'll take Biden, no contest over the psychopath war criminal that is proud of the massive damage he is responsible for. Hell, I would take Sarah Palin and she's about the biggest joke in the GOP.
Oh, well I agree, if you're talking about beer. I'd rather go hunting with Palin though, that's for sure.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:13 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note.
Yes, and the Daily Show did not treat him with kid gloves, did they?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Bush and Merkel were friends
Evidence?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat.
Evidence that Carter did not?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
She also smiled afterwards.
Carter smiled the whole time.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.
Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks.


What this boils down to is that you've come up with a narrative that justifies Bush's actions but condemns Biden's and you are now asserting that narrative as fact despite there being nothing to support that narrative.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:18 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism,
Off the top of my head, that's 4,500 KIA in Iraq and another 2,000 in Afghanistan, and call it another 1,000 from training and transportation exercises. So 7,500. That's "more lives than have ever died from terrorism?" No, it actually isn't.


Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again.
Vladimir Putin, Kim Jung-Un, Juan-María Bodebarry, Raúl Castro, Robert Mugabe, Radovan Karadzic, Mswati III, Al-Sadaad in Syria, Aleksander Lukashenko, Ratko Mladić, Omar al-Bashir, Nguema in Equatorial Guinea, etc.

In summary, you are completely, 100% wrong.

Last edited by carlitos; 25th February 2015 at 02:37 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:21 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note.
I watched it, for a comedy show it was pretty good.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Because it lasted less than two seconds, Bush and Merkel were friends,
They were friends? Weird, I can't seem to find any information stating the two, outside of a work relationship, had any form of relationship at all. Conjecture?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
and Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat.
As well she should, if she wanted too. Any woman should do the same, and I don't doubt for a moment that many do.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
She also smiled afterwards.
And this means? Was Stephanie Carter frowning? Crying? Upset? Can you tell how she's felt by all the things she's said in the press? What does smiling mean? Maybe Merkel didn't want an uncomfortable situation to become worse. You don't laugh stuff off sometimes? Weird.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.
Which of course you have evidence to support your ridiculous conjecture, right? That she HAD to endure it? I mean, 28 seconds, really? Excruciatingly prolonged and gross? He didn't have his hand on her chest.

So in summary I need evidence that she had to endure it, that is was prolonged, a gross violation, and that she was terrified of being rude. Let me know when you get any of those things, if you have none of that, retract your statements as they're nothing more than your conjecture. I'll be waiting.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:30 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post

They were friends? Weird, I can't seem to find any information stating the two, outside of a work relationship, had any form of relationship at all. Conjecture?
The info is out there. Are you sure that you looked?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-426725.html

Friendship & Interest. Why Merkel and Bush get along so well.

Merkel invited W and his wife to her seaside home for bbq. And she and the hubby were invited to the ranch in Crawford.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:30 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks.
Consider the vast (failed) body of work attempting to read the minds of others, readily available on this site, I'd suggest that's not a viable option.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:35 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes, and the Daily Show did not treat him with kid gloves, did they?
After six years of embarrassing behavior, it was certainly about time.

Quote:
Evidence?
Here.
Quote:
In contrast to the back-slapping (and shoulder-massaging) she shared with George W. Bush, Merkel regards Obama warily, though they share the same cerebral style.

...

Not surprisingly, Merkel herself insists that she gets along just fine with Obama. “I had a reliable, friendly relationship with President Bush, and I have a very good and friendly relationship with President Obama,” she told me.
Sounds like she's looking for a shoulder massage from Obama too.

Quote:
Evidence that Carter did not?
She looked kind of uncomfortable to me. Also, her husband went out of his way to put his hand on her shoulder, as if to say "Back off buddy." Joe got his hand out of there just in time. Take a look at the video.

Quote:

<snip>

Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks.
But it's not really mind-reading. It's interpretation of body language and facial expressions. It's not 100%, but it's reasonably accurate.

Quote:
What this boils down to is that you've come up with a narrative that justifies Bush's actions but condemns Biden's and you are now asserting that narrative as fact despite there being nothing to support that narrative.
I'm not asserting it as fact, but if you're a journalist and you're going to attack somebody for being a harasser, you need more than just a two second faux pas. In the case of Biden, there is plenty more to go on.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:42 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I suggest that you read the whole thing as opposed to just the bit that suits your immediate purpose.

Biden did agree to the Iraq War based on the data that was largely provided by the Bush Administration, and at the time of the vote, the Bush Administration had a great deal of credibility in regards to foreign policy. But later, it turned out that the Bush Administration was nothing but a load of lairs and war criminals.

In any event, Biden went on to say in the very same interview that you cite:
Quote:
Quote:
The thing that I regret, and I’ll say it again, and I said it way before ‘07 and going to Iowa, is that I regret having had the—believed that this administration had any competence.

It is the most incompetent administration I’ve ever—if I’d known they were going to misuse the authority we gave them the way they did, if I’d known that they were going to, once they used it, be so incompetent in the using of it, I would have never ever, ever given them the authority.

If I were president, would I have asked for the authority? I would have asked for the authority in order to demonstrate to the world that they better not be lifting sanctions, they better not be putting pressure on having no-fly zones, and they better join with us in putting the screws onto Saddam by screwing down the sanctions on Saddam as opposed to lifting the sanctions.

That’s what the debate was about at the time.
I see him disagreeing with him voting for the war (wasn't he running for POTUS at the time?), not the intelligence of WMD which was assumed true back to the Clinton administration.

As has been shown in other threads, Saddam admitted in interviews prior to his well deserved hanging that he was going to continue where he left off with developing WMD.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:43 PM   #188
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It might have saved some time (and focused the arguments better) if the thread had been titled, "Who's Not Embarrassed by Joe Biden?"
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:46 PM   #189
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There's nothing worse than a load of lairs. So many places to hide.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:57 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
After six years of embarrassing behavior, it was certainly about time.
Is Biden's (or Bush's) creepy hands really the biggest or most important issue to cover?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Here.
Can't view. Apparently, I've looked at too many Newsweek articles this month.


Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
She looked kind of uncomfortable to me.
And, from "looked kind of uncomfortable to me", you reached this conclusion?
Quote:
Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
But it's not really mind-reading. It's interpretation of body language and facial expressions. It's not 100%, but it's reasonably accurate.
And, yet, from Merkel's body language, where she reacts almost like she's in pain, you concluded that she and Bush have a secret relationship, away from the public eye?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I'm not asserting it as fact
You didn't say she seemed terrified, you stated that she was terrified. You didn't say she appeared to be enduring a gross violation of her personal space, you stated that she did endure a gross violation of her personal space.

Merkel, on the other hand, who actually reacted like she had just received a gross violation of her personal space, well, she and Bush are secret buddies, so that's okay.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:58 PM   #191
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Despite my prior comments, I have no dog in this fight. But, I'd like to mention that Americans really aren't qualified to read German body language or facial expressions. It's a completely different thing, and you are most likely way, way off when you do so.
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Old 25th February 2015, 02:59 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Of the top of my head, that's 4,500 KIA in Iraq and another 2,000 in Afghanistan, and call it another 1,000 from training and transportation exercises. So 7,500. That's "more lives than have ever died from terrorism?" No, it actually isn't.
Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism.


Quote:
Vladimir Putin, Kim Jung-Un, Juan-María Bodebarry, Raúl Castro, Robert Mugabe, Radovan Karadzic, Mswati III, Al-Sadaad in Syria, Aleksander Lukashenko, Ratko Mladić, Omar al-Bashir, Nguema in Equatorial Guinea, etc.

In summary, you are completely, 100% wrong.
Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating a power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out.

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Old 25th February 2015, 03:10 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism.
I really don't have "comprehension issues," but your phrasing was unclear to me. Around 7,000 Americans "died because of Cheney" in your view. In the past few decades, 4 or 5,000 have died from terrorism. I suppose that you are correct, but I'd have to look it up to see if "ever" was true.


Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating the power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out.
I thought that it would take a few more posts before you moved the goalposts and started with the special pleading. My mistake. If you'd like to learn something, go back and read the words that you wrote, as well as my response.

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Old 25th February 2015, 03:19 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Is Biden's (or Bush's) creepy hands really the biggest or most important issue to cover?
You could say the same about any thread here. We pick a horse, argue over it, kill it, beat it, and then move on. At least that's what I like to do.

Quote:
Can't view. Apparently, I've looked at too many Newsweek articles this month.
Don't bother. Carlitos' links are far more persuasive.

Quote:
And, from "looked kind of uncomfortable to me", you reached this conclusion?
And, yet, from Merkel's body language, where she reacts almost like she's in pain, you concluded that she and Bush have a secret relationship, away from the public eye?
I was joking around, but the point is that we don't really know if Bush was harassing Merkel. Actually, from what I've learned from Carlitos' links, I'd have to say that they were already very comfortable with one another, and my link implied that there was reciprocal "back-slapping."

Quote:
You didn't say she seemed terrified, you stated that she was terrified. You didn't say she appeared to be enduring a gross violation of her personal space, you stated that she did endure a gross violation of her personal space.
Fine, in the case of Stephanie Carter, I withdraw any claims to certainty. However, I think the probability that at least several of Biden's recent close encounters with female family members of new appointees and Congressmen constituted unwelcome intrusions of personal space is close to 1.
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Old 25th February 2015, 03:23 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism.
I don't think it's fair that you attribute all of those deaths to Cheney. Why should he get all the credit?

Quote:
Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating a power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out.
500,000 people? In Iraq? That number sounds wildly inflated. Also, why does Cheney get all of the credit for sectarian violence, most of which was probably inevitable anyway? What about all of the people that Saddam didn't get to kill? Shouldn't we subtract those guys from Cheney's kill count?
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Old 25th February 2015, 03:36 PM   #196
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Quote:
I thought that it would take a few more posts before you moved the goalposts and started with the special pleading. My mistake. If you'd like to learn something, go back and read the words that you wrote, as well as my response.
I did no such thing. That's my estimation of Cheney's negative impact. I never meant to imply that he is worse because others don't fit those exact circumstances. It is obvious that it is possible for somebody to be worse than Cheney. In fact, there have been people that were, but they are all dead in my estimation. I could be wrong. Please tell me how say Putin has negatively affected the world as much as Cheney.
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Old 25th February 2015, 03:44 PM   #197
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No thanks. Good luck with whatever it is that you think your doing here.
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Old 25th February 2015, 04:18 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I don't think it's fair that you attribute all of those deaths to Cheney. Why should he get all the credit?
He shares it with others, most notable Bush. Technically the decision was Bush's alone to make but I hold Cheney equally responsible given the influence he held over Bush and how he pressured the CIA to produce the desired intel.

Quote:
500,000 people? In Iraq? That number sounds wildly inflated. Also, why does Cheney get all of the credit for sectarian violence, most of which was probably inevitable anyway? What about all of the people that Saddam didn't get to kill? Shouldn't we subtract those guys from Cheney's kill count?
There are are studies that give higher estimates. To be clear that includes all deaths caused by the war, direct and indirect. Documented civilian deaths due to violence are about 150k (though there are surely many that went undocumented). Nobody knows the exact body count, but it is high.

All of Saddam's atrocities were pre Gulf War. I'm sure he still killed people when he wanted to, but I'm unaware of any evidence that that he was killing large numbers of people in the 2000s.

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Old 25th February 2015, 04:20 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
No thanks. Good luck with whatever it is that you think your doing here.
Didn't think so.
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Old 25th February 2015, 04:53 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Your link claims there are US-declared "war zones", but offers no evidence of this claim. Perhaps you can provide this evidence? I doubt you can, because I'm pretty sure your propaganda site just made that up.

But hey, feel free to prove me wrong if you can!
You know perfectly well what they mean, because they define the usage of the phrase:
Quote:
The research centres on countries outside the US’s declared war zones of Iraq and Afghanistan.
But, hey, focus on the phrasing instead of the issue.
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