Who's embarrassed by Joe Biden? - Page 5

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

This may be the funniest comment of the thread.

Just to be clear, you're concerned about the media having a double standard when portraying actions of people from one party more harshly than those same actions from members of the other party, right? Do you detect any irony here?

Irony? No. Contradiction? No. Perhaps you can explain. Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior. A one-off faux pas is simply nowhere near as bad.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Sure, but Cheney is the nearest corollary. Other politicians (except two in the last decade and a half or so) have less political stature and less individually important positions in the government. The media might treat a local state rep with less importance than the VP of the US based on their sheer difference in national relevance. The more differences you introduce between the people you are comparing, the less likely you can pin the difference on a single attribute, like political party.

Except for the fact that both Cheney and Biden are old white men who have been VPs and have served in Congress, they are diametric opposites. Cheney is smart; Biden is dumb. Cheney is cold and ruthless; Biden is warm and sympathetic; Cheney is articulate; Biden is a gaffe machine. Cheney probably doesn't even like to touch himself; Biden will grab anything that's warm and too slow to get away. I would much rather have a beer with Biden, although I would keep my wife and daughter far away from him.

Upchurch · 25th February 2015, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Irony? No. Contradiction? No. Perhaps you can explain. Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior. A one-off faux pas is simply nowhere near as bad.

Okay, let me point it out to you:

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

I don't remember what the US media's reaction was. I do remember Bush being called a clown or worse in the European media. Bush's thing was a one-off, though, not a pattern of behavior. In addition, none of us are privy to Merkel's and Bush's relationship. They obviously had worked together on many previous occasions, and although Merkel's reaction indicated that Bush's intimacy was unwelcome, her reaction could just as easily have been due to surprise. For all we know, he had given her consensual shoulder massages before.

You condemn the media for treating one political party harsher than another, but then you've gone out of your way to rationalize the inappropriate behavior of one politician, but you deny the same benefit of the doubt to another, all because of their party affiliation.

In other words, you have demonstrated the same bias you complained of (without evidence) in others.

Hm. Is that irony or just simply hypocrisy?

Ziggurat · 25th February 2015, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior.

Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic.

TragicMonkey · 25th February 2015, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic.

Your blatantly partisan hackery is making you misread the statistic. What the study concluded was that Biden creepy touched twenty percent of each Congresswoman. He groped 100% of the total, but only 20% of each of their persons. Do try to be more fair to the man in future.

thaiboxerken · 25th February 2015, 11:06 AM

Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children?

TragicMonkey · 25th February 2015, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children?

It's one slippery sloped step from that to 'do you like gladiator movies?'

Ziggurat · 25th February 2015, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children?

It wasn't the pushups themselves, it was his massive erection.

TragicMonkey · 25th February 2015, 11:10 AM

I'm increasingly reminded of Sybil Fawlty declaring 'I've heard of this, they call it the male menopause'.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Okay, let me point it out to you:

You condemn the media for treating one political party harsher than another, but then you've gone out of your way to rationalize the inappropriate behavior of one politician, but you deny the same benefit of the doubt to another, all because of their party affiliation.

In other words, you have demonstrated the same bias you complained of (without evidence) in others.

Hm. Is that irony or just simply hypocrisy?

Why do you say that it is because of their party affiliation? I gave a perfectly valid reason. In Bush's case it was a one-time faux pas. For one event or one person, it's plausible that there exists some level of friendliness or intimacy of which the public is unaware. This is not the case for a pattern of sexual harrassment. There is no way that Biden was on intimate terms with that many women and girls, many of whom had only recently entered the public sphere.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic.

It is interesting that according to recent Department of Education guidelines, Biden would likely have been charged with sexual harassment and expelled from law school for his treatment of Stephanie Carter, assuming he had not already been expelled for plagiarism.

Upchurch · 25th February 2015, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Why do you say that it is because of their party affiliation?

Because there is no other reasonable explanation.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

I gave a perfectly valid reason. In Bush's case it was a one-time faux pas. For one event or one person, it's plausible that there exists some level of friendliness or intimacy of which the public is unaware.

Plausible, but not likely. And not a valid reason, more like unlikely speculation.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

This is not the case for a pattern of sexual harrassment. There is no way that Biden was on intimate terms with that many women and girls, many of whom had only recently entered the public sphere.

Pattern of sexual harrassment based on a few cherry-picked photographs with no context what-so-ever? (and a few that you'd have to stretch the imagination to even come up with a reason why they are inappropriate?)

The whole thing is pure conjecture. Your "reasons" are founded on on your political biases, which apparently is okay for you, but not for others.

Upchurch · 25th February 2015, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Does anyone believe that the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch?

I don't remember what the US media's reaction was. [snip rationalization]

Since you didn't explicitly answer the question, you don't know if the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch?

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Since you didn't explicitly answer the question, you don't know if the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch?

Looks like it was kind of a big deal when Bush gave Merkel the business.

Quote:

In the US, meanwhile, a debate has broken out as to whether giving a back rub amounts to sexual harassment. Was the massage just a harmless bit of fun between two equally powerful leaders? Or was it a deeply unacceptable example of workplace sexual abuse? Several websites have dubbed Bush the "groper in chief", while the Democratic politician Martha Whetstone has expressed outrage. She told the San Francisco Chronicle: "You could use the clip as part of a teaching video on sexual harassment. You'd show people and tell them: 'Nobody in a position of authority should do something like that'."

Personally, I think Biden's harassment of Stephanie Carter was much, much worse than what Bush did to Merkel, and he has been acting like that for a long time without nary a peep in the mainstream media (starting finally to get some peeps now though).

Upchurch · 25th February 2015, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Looks like it was kind of a big deal when Bush gave Merkel the business.

And...?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Personally, I think Biden's harassment of Stephanie Carter was much, much worse than what Bush did to Merkel

Of course, you do.

Why?

theprestige · 25th February 2015, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Of course, you do.

"Of course"? Please tell me you're not trying to personalize the debate.

Quote:

Why?

Because it went on for much longer and was part of a documented pattern of such behavior?

Surely the proposition that Joe Biden behaves badly can be debated on its own merits. After all, it's not like anyone here owes Biden an partisan defense, right?

Right?

Upchurch · 25th February 2015, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

"Of course"? Please tell me you're not trying to personalize the debate.

Not personalizing. Just pointing out that he's doing the same thing he's accusing others of doing. It's much worse because it's Biden. If it had been Bush, he might have speculated that none of know what kind of relationship he and Stephanie Carter have. It could have been a consensual standing there with his hands on her shoulders.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Because it went on for much longer and was part of a documented pattern of such behavior?

Carter didn't shrug him off and "documented" is a bit of hyperbole.

Originally Posted by theprestige

Surely the proposition that Joe Biden behaves badly can be debated on its own merits.

It can be and I happen to agree that he's been creepy. I don't agree with sunmaster14's concerns of media favoritism.

Tony Stark · 25th February 2015, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Except for the fact that both Cheney and Biden are old white men who have been VPs and have served in Congress, they are diametric opposites. Cheney is smart; Biden is dumb. Cheney is cold and ruthless; Biden is warm and sympathetic; Cheney is articulate; Biden is a gaffe machine. Cheney probably doesn't even like to touch himself; Biden will grab anything that's warm and too slow to get away. I would much rather have a beer with Biden, although I would keep my wife and daughter far away from him.

Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism, the lives of nobody even knows how many Iraqis, trillions of dollars, and the goodwill of the world. Not to mention the fact that Saddam kept Islamists in line. Altogether, a monumental blunder. Like one of the worst decisions ever made by any American.

He also is responsible for CIA's illegal, disgusting, and ineffective torture regime which probably caused more damage to the US's reputation than was inflicted upon al Qaeda because of it.

I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again. Frankly, one of Obama's biggest failures is that Cheney isn't in prison. Not only does justice require it, but failing to deliver justice means that others are more likely to repeat the behavior as precedent will dictate that they won't be held personally responsible for their crimes.

I'll take Biden, no contest over the psychopath war criminal that is proud of the massive damage he is responsible for. Hell, I would take Sarah Palin and she's about the biggest joke in the GOP.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

And...?

Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note.

Quote:

Of course, you do.

Why?

Because it lasted less than two seconds, Bush and Merkel were friends, and Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat. She also smiled afterwards.

Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Tony Stark

Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism, the lives of nobody even knows how many Iraqis, trillions of dollars, and the goodwill of the world. Not to mention the fact that Saddam kept Islamists in line. Altogether, a monumental blunder. Like one of the worst decisions ever made by any American.

He also is responsible for CIA's illegal, disgusting, and ineffective torture regime which probably caused more damage to the US's reputation than was inflicted upon al Qaeda because of it.

I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again. Frankly, one of Obama's biggest failures is that Cheney isn't in prison. Not only does justice require it, but failing to deliver justice means that others are more likely to repeat the behavior as precedent will dictate that they won't be held personally responsible for their crimes.

Does that mean you'd rather have a beer with Cheney?

Quote:

I'll take Biden, no contest over the psychopath war criminal that is proud of the massive damage he is responsible for. Hell, I would take Sarah Palin and she's about the biggest joke in the GOP.

Oh, well I agree, if you're talking about beer. I'd rather go hunting with Palin though, that's for sure.

Upchurch · 25th February 2015, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note.

Yes, and the Daily Show did not treat him with kid gloves, did they?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Bush and Merkel were friends

Evidence?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat.

Evidence that Carter did not?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

She also smiled afterwards.

Carter smiled the whole time.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.

Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks.

What this boils down to is that you've come up with a narrative that justifies Bush's actions but condemns Biden's and you are now asserting that narrative as fact despite there being nothing to support that narrative.

carlitos · 25th February 2015, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Tony Stark

Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism,

Off the top of my head, that's 4,500 KIA in Iraq and another 2,000 in Afghanistan, and call it another 1,000 from training and transportation exercises. So 7,500. That's "more lives than have ever died from terrorism?" No, it actually isn't.

Originally Posted by Tony Stark

I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again.

Vladimir Putin, Kim Jung-Un, Juan-María Bodebarry, Raúl Castro, Robert Mugabe, Radovan Karadzic, Mswati III, Al-Sadaad in Syria, Aleksander Lukashenko, Ratko Mladić, Omar al-Bashir, Nguema in Equatorial Guinea, etc.

In summary, you are completely, 100% wrong.

plague311 · 25th February 2015, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note.

I watched it, for a comedy show it was pretty good.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Because it lasted less than two seconds, Bush and Merkel were friends,

They were friends? Weird, I can't seem to find any information stating the two, outside of a work relationship, had any form of relationship at all. Conjecture?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

and Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat.

As well she should, if she wanted too. Any woman should do the same, and I don't doubt for a moment that many do.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

She also smiled afterwards.

And this means? Was Stephanie Carter frowning? Crying? Upset? Can you tell how she's felt by all the things she's said in the press? What does smiling mean? Maybe Merkel didn't want an uncomfortable situation to become worse. You don't laugh stuff off sometimes? Weird.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.

Which of course you have evidence to support your ridiculous conjecture, right? That she HAD to endure it? I mean, 28 seconds, really? Excruciatingly prolonged and gross? He didn't have his hand on her chest.

So in summary I need evidence that she had to endure it, that is was prolonged, a gross violation, and that she was terrified of being rude. Let me know when you get any of those things, if you have none of that, retract your statements as they're nothing more than your conjecture. I'll be waiting.

carlitos · 25th February 2015, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

They were friends? Weird, I can't seem to find any information stating the two, outside of a work relationship, had any form of relationship at all. Conjecture?

The info is out there. Are you sure that you looked?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-426725.html

Friendship & Interest. Why Merkel and Bush get along so well.

Merkel invited W and his wife to her seaside home for bbq. And she and the hubby were invited to the ranch in Crawford.

DavidJames · 25th February 2015, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks.

Consider the vast (failed) body of work attempting to read the minds of others, readily available on this site, I'd suggest that's not a viable option.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Yes, and the Daily Show did not treat him with kid gloves, did they?

After six years of embarrassing behavior, it was certainly about time.

Quote:

Evidence?

Here.

Quote:

In contrast to the back-slapping (and shoulder-massaging) she shared with George W. Bush, Merkel regards Obama warily, though they share the same cerebral style.

...

Not surprisingly, Merkel herself insists that she gets along just fine with Obama. “I had a reliable, friendly relationship with President Bush, and I have a very good and friendly relationship with President Obama,” she told me.

Sounds like she's looking for a shoulder massage from Obama too.

Quote:

Evidence that Carter did not?

She looked kind of uncomfortable to me. Also, her husband went out of his way to put his hand on her shoulder, as if to say "Back off buddy." Joe got his hand out of there just in time. Take a look at the video.

Quote:

<snip>

Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks.

But it's not really mind-reading. It's interpretation of body language and facial expressions. It's not 100%, but it's reasonably accurate.

Quote:

What this boils down to is that you've come up with a narrative that justifies Bush's actions but condemns Biden's and you are now asserting that narrative as fact despite there being nothing to support that narrative.

I'm not asserting it as fact, but if you're a journalist and you're going to attack somebody for being a harasser, you need more than just a two second faux pas. In the case of Biden, there is plenty more to go on.

Wolrab · 25th February 2015, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Crossbow

I suggest that you read the whole thing as opposed to just the bit that suits your immediate purpose.

Biden did agree to the Iraq War based on the data that was largely provided by the Bush Administration, and at the time of the vote, the Bush Administration had a great deal of credibility in regards to foreign policy. But later, it turned out that the Bush Administration was nothing but a load of lairs and war criminals.

In any event, Biden went on to say in the very same interview that you cite:

Quote:

Quote:
The thing that I regret, and I’ll say it again, and I said it way before ‘07 and going to Iowa, is that I regret having had the—believed that this administration had any competence.

It is the most incompetent administration I’ve ever—if I’d known they were going to misuse the authority we gave them the way they did, if I’d known that they were going to, once they used it, be so incompetent in the using of it, I would have never ever, ever given them the authority.

If I were president, would I have asked for the authority? I would have asked for the authority in order to demonstrate to the world that they better not be lifting sanctions, they better not be putting pressure on having no-fly zones, and they better join with us in putting the screws onto Saddam by screwing down the sanctions on Saddam as opposed to lifting the sanctions.

That’s what the debate was about at the time.

I see him disagreeing with him voting for the war (wasn't he running for POTUS at the time?), not the intelligence of WMD which was assumed true back to the Clinton administration.

As has been shown in other threads, Saddam admitted in interviews prior to his well deserved hanging that he was going to continue where he left off with developing WMD.

Brainster · 25th February 2015, 02:43 PM

It might have saved some time (and focused the arguments better) if the thread had been titled, "Who's Not Embarrassed by Joe Biden?"

carlitos · 25th February 2015, 02:46 PM

There's nothing worse than a load of lairs. So many places to hide.

Upchurch · 25th February 2015, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

After six years of embarrassing behavior, it was certainly about time.

Is Biden's (or Bush's) creepy hands really the biggest or most important issue to cover?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

Here.

Can't view. Apparently, I've looked at too many Newsweek articles this month.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

She looked kind of uncomfortable to me.

And, from "looked kind of uncomfortable to me", you reached this conclusion?

Quote:

Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

But it's not really mind-reading. It's interpretation of body language and facial expressions. It's not 100%, but it's reasonably accurate.

And, yet, from Merkel's body language, where she reacts almost like she's in pain, you concluded that she and Bush have a secret relationship, away from the public eye?

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

I'm not asserting it as fact

You didn't say she seemed terrified, you stated that she was terrified. You didn't say she appeared to be enduring a gross violation of her personal space, you stated that she did endure a gross violation of her personal space.

Merkel, on the other hand, who actually reacted like she had just received a gross violation of her personal space, well, she and Bush are secret buddies, so that's okay.

carlitos · 25th February 2015, 02:58 PM

Despite my prior comments, I have no dog in this fight. But, I'd like to mention that Americans really aren't qualified to read German body language or facial expressions. It's a completely different thing, and you are most likely way, way off when you do so.

Tony Stark · 25th February 2015, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Of the top of my head, that's 4,500 KIA in Iraq and another 2,000 in Afghanistan, and call it another 1,000 from training and transportation exercises. So 7,500. That's "more lives than have ever died from terrorism?" No, it actually isn't.

Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism.

Quote:

Vladimir Putin, Kim Jung-Un, Juan-María Bodebarry, Raúl Castro, Robert Mugabe, Radovan Karadzic, Mswati III, Al-Sadaad in Syria, Aleksander Lukashenko, Ratko Mladić, Omar al-Bashir, Nguema in Equatorial Guinea, etc.

In summary, you are completely, 100% wrong.

Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating a power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out.

carlitos · 25th February 2015, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Tony Stark

Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism.

I really don't have "comprehension issues," but your phrasing was unclear to me. Around 7,000 Americans "died because of Cheney" in your view. In the past few decades, 4 or 5,000 have died from terrorism. I suppose that you are correct, but I'd have to look it up to see if "ever" was true.

Originally Posted by Tony Stark

Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating the power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out.

I thought that it would take a few more posts before you moved the goalposts and started with the special pleading. My mistake. If you'd like to learn something, go back and read the words that you wrote, as well as my response.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Is Biden's (or Bush's) creepy hands really the biggest or most important issue to cover?

You could say the same about any thread here. We pick a horse, argue over it, kill it, beat it, and then move on. At least that's what I like to do.

Quote:

Can't view. Apparently, I've looked at too many Newsweek articles this month.

Don't bother. Carlitos' links are far more persuasive.

Quote:

And, from "looked kind of uncomfortable to me", you reached this conclusion?
And, yet, from Merkel's body language, where she reacts almost like she's in pain, you concluded that she and Bush have a secret relationship, away from the public eye?

I was joking around, but the point is that we don't really know if Bush was harassing Merkel. Actually, from what I've learned from Carlitos' links, I'd have to say that they were already very comfortable with one another, and my link implied that there was reciprocal "back-slapping."

Quote:

You didn't say she seemed terrified, you stated that she was terrified. You didn't say she appeared to be enduring a gross violation of her personal space, you stated that she did endure a gross violation of her personal space.

Fine, in the case of Stephanie Carter, I withdraw any claims to certainty. However, I think the probability that at least several of Biden's recent close encounters with female family members of new appointees and Congressmen constituted unwelcome intrusions of personal space is close to 1.

sunmaster14 · 25th February 2015, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Tony Stark

Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism.

I don't think it's fair that you attribute all of those deaths to Cheney. Why should he get all the credit?

Quote:

Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating a power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out.

500,000 people? In Iraq? That number sounds wildly inflated. Also, why does Cheney get all of the credit for sectarian violence, most of which was probably inevitable anyway? What about all of the people that Saddam didn't get to kill? Shouldn't we subtract those guys from Cheney's kill count?

Tony Stark · 25th February 2015, 03:36 PM

Quote:

I thought that it would take a few more posts before you moved the goalposts and started with the special pleading. My mistake. If you'd like to learn something, go back and read the words that you wrote, as well as my response.

I did no such thing. That's my estimation of Cheney's negative impact. I never meant to imply that he is worse because others don't fit those exact circumstances. It is obvious that it is possible for somebody to be worse than Cheney. In fact, there have been people that were, but they are all dead in my estimation. I could be wrong. Please tell me how say Putin has negatively affected the world as much as Cheney.

carlitos · 25th February 2015, 03:44 PM

No thanks. Good luck with whatever it is that you think your doing here.

Tony Stark · 25th February 2015, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by sunmaster14

I don't think it's fair that you attribute all of those deaths to Cheney. Why should he get all the credit?

He shares it with others, most notable Bush. Technically the decision was Bush's alone to make but I hold Cheney equally responsible given the influence he held over Bush and how he pressured the CIA to produce the desired intel.

Quote:

500,000 people? In Iraq? That number sounds wildly inflated. Also, why does Cheney get all of the credit for sectarian violence, most of which was probably inevitable anyway? What about all of the people that Saddam didn't get to kill? Shouldn't we subtract those guys from Cheney's kill count?

There are are studies that give higher estimates. To be clear that includes all deaths caused by the war, direct and indirect. Documented civilian deaths due to violence are about 150k (though there are surely many that went undocumented). Nobody knows the exact body count, but it is high.

All of Saddam's atrocities were pre Gulf War. I'm sure he still killed people when he wanted to, but I'm unaware of any evidence that that he was killing large numbers of people in the 2000s.

Tony Stark · 25th February 2015, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

No thanks. Good luck with whatever it is that you think your doing here.

Didn't think so.

LorenzoValla · 25th February 2015, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

Your link claims there are US-declared "war zones", but offers no evidence of this claim. Perhaps you can provide this evidence? I doubt you can, because I'm pretty sure your propaganda site just made that up.

But hey, feel free to prove me wrong if you can!

You know perfectly well what they mean, because they define the usage of the phrase:

Quote:

The research centres on countries outside the US’s declared war zones of Iraq and Afghanistan.

But, hey, focus on the phrasing instead of the issue.

25th February 2015, 10:52 AM	#163
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,468	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Irony? No. Contradiction? No. Perhaps you can explain. Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior. A one-off faux pas is simply nowhere near as bad. Okay, let me point it out to you: Originally Posted by sunmaster14 I don't remember what the US media's reaction was. I do remember Bush being called a clown or worse in the European media. Bush's thing was a one-off, though, not a pattern of behavior. In addition, none of us are privy to Merkel's and Bush's relationship. They obviously had worked together on many previous occasions, and although Merkel's reaction indicated that Bush's intimacy was unwelcome, her reaction could just as easily have been due to surprise. For all we know, he had given her consensual shoulder massages before. You condemn the media for treating one political party harsher than another, but then you've gone out of your way to rationalize the inappropriate behavior of one politician, but you deny the same benefit of the doubt to another, all because of their party affiliation. In other words, you have demonstrated the same bias you complained of (without evidence) in others. Hm. Is that irony or just simply hypocrisy?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

25th February 2015, 10:57 AM	#164
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,634	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior. Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

25th February 2015, 11:06 AM	#165
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,744	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic. Your blatantly partisan hackery is making you misread the statistic. What the study concluded was that Biden creepy touched twenty percent of each Congresswoman. He groped 100% of the total, but only 20% of each of their persons. Do try to be more fair to the man in future.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

25th February 2015, 11:06 AM	#166
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 31,717	Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children?
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

25th February 2015, 11:07 AM	#167
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,744	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children? It's one slippery sloped step from that to 'do you like gladiator movies?'
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

25th February 2015, 10:43 AM	#161
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Upchurch This may be the funniest comment of the thread. Just to be clear, you're concerned about the media having a double standard when portraying actions of people from one party more harshly than those same actions from members of the other party, right? Do you detect any irony here? Irony? No. Contradiction? No. Perhaps you can explain. Biden has a very disturbing pattern of behavior. A one-off faux pas is simply nowhere near as bad.

25th February 2015, 10:50 AM	#162
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Upchurch Sure, but Cheney is the nearest corollary. Other politicians (except two in the last decade and a half or so) have less political stature and less individually important positions in the government. The media might treat a local state rep with less importance than the VP of the US based on their sheer difference in national relevance. The more differences you introduce between the people you are comparing, the less likely you can pin the difference on a single attribute, like political party. Except for the fact that both Cheney and Biden are old white men who have been VPs and have served in Congress, they are diametric opposites. Cheney is smart; Biden is dumb. Cheney is cold and ruthless; Biden is warm and sympathetic; Cheney is articulate; Biden is a gaffe machine. Cheney probably doesn't even like to touch himself; Biden will grab anything that's warm and too slow to get away. I would much rather have a beer with Biden, although I would keep my wife and daughter far away from him.

25th February 2015, 11:08 AM	#168
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,634	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Can someone explain to me what is creepy about doing push-ups next to children? It wasn't the pushups themselves, it was his massive erection.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

25th February 2015, 11:10 AM	#169
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 59,744	I'm increasingly reminded of Sybil Fawlty declaring 'I've heard of this, they call it the male menopause'.
	__________________ You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.

25th February 2015, 11:11 AM	#170
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Upchurch Okay, let me point it out to you: You condemn the media for treating one political party harsher than another, but then you've gone out of your way to rationalize the inappropriate behavior of one politician, but you deny the same benefit of the doubt to another, all because of their party affiliation. In other words, you have demonstrated the same bias you complained of (without evidence) in others. Hm. Is that irony or just simply hypocrisy? Why do you say that it is because of their party affiliation? I gave a perfectly valid reason. In Bush's case it was a one-time faux pas. For one event or one person, it's plausible that there exists some level of friendliness or intimacy of which the public is unaware. This is not the case for a pattern of sexual harrassment. There is no way that Biden was on intimate terms with that many women and girls, many of whom had only recently entered the public sphere.

25th February 2015, 11:16 AM	#171
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Indeed. A department of justice study concluded that one in five congresswomen has been groped by Biden. It's an epidemic. It is interesting that according to recent Department of Education guidelines, Biden would likely have been charged with sexual harassment and expelled from law school for his treatment of Stephanie Carter, assuming he had not already been expelled for plagiarism.

25th February 2015, 12:25 PM	#172
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,468	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Why do you say that it is because of their party affiliation? Because there is no other reasonable explanation. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 I gave a perfectly valid reason. In Bush's case it was a one-time faux pas. For one event or one person, it's plausible that there exists some level of friendliness or intimacy of which the public is unaware. Plausible, but not likely. And not a valid reason, more like unlikely speculation. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 This is not the case for a pattern of sexual harrassment. There is no way that Biden was on intimate terms with that many women and girls, many of whom had only recently entered the public sphere. Pattern of sexual harrassment based on a few cherry-picked photographs with no context what-so-ever? (and a few that you'd have to stretch the imagination to even come up with a reason why they are inappropriate?) The whole thing is pure conjecture. Your "reasons" are founded on on your political biases, which apparently is okay for you, but not for others.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

25th February 2015, 12:49 PM	#173
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,468	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Originally Posted by Upchurch Does anyone believe that the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch? I don't remember what the US media's reaction was. [snip rationalization] Since you didn't explicitly answer the question, you don't know if the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

25th February 2015, 01:19 PM	#174
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Upchurch Since you didn't explicitly answer the question, you don't know if the media's treatment of Bush's creepy touch was harsher than it's treatment of Biden's creepy touch? Looks like it was kind of a big deal when Bush gave Merkel the business. Quote: In the US, meanwhile, a debate has broken out as to whether giving a back rub amounts to sexual harassment. Was the massage just a harmless bit of fun between two equally powerful leaders? Or was it a deeply unacceptable example of workplace sexual abuse? Several websites have dubbed Bush the "groper in chief", while the Democratic politician Martha Whetstone has expressed outrage. She told the San Francisco Chronicle: "You could use the clip as part of a teaching video on sexual harassment. You'd show people and tell them: 'Nobody in a position of authority should do something like that'." Personally, I think Biden's harassment of Stephanie Carter was much, much worse than what Bush did to Merkel, and he has been acting like that for a long time without nary a peep in the mainstream media (starting finally to get some peeps now though).

25th February 2015, 01:27 PM	#175
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,468	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Looks like it was kind of a big deal when Bush gave Merkel the business. And...? Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Personally, I think Biden's harassment of Stephanie Carter was much, much worse than what Bush did to Merkel Of course, you do. Why?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

25th February 2015, 01:36 PM	#176
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 50,629	Originally Posted by Upchurch Of course, you do. "Of course"? Please tell me you're not trying to personalize the debate. Quote: Why? Because it went on for much longer and was part of a documented pattern of such behavior? Surely the proposition that Joe Biden behaves badly can be debated on its own merits. After all, it's not like anyone here owes Biden an partisan defense, right? Right?

25th February 2015, 01:50 PM	#177
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,468	Originally Posted by theprestige "Of course"? Please tell me you're not trying to personalize the debate. Not personalizing. Just pointing out that he's doing the same thing he's accusing others of doing. It's much worse because it's Biden. If it had been Bush, he might have speculated that none of know what kind of relationship he and Stephanie Carter have. It could have been a consensual standing there with his hands on her shoulders. Originally Posted by theprestige Because it went on for much longer and was part of a documented pattern of such behavior? Carter didn't shrug him off and "documented" is a bit of hyperbole. Originally Posted by theprestige Surely the proposition that Joe Biden behaves badly can be debated on its own merits. It can be and I happen to agree that he's been creepy. I don't agree with sunmaster14's concerns of media favoritism.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

25th February 2015, 01:52 PM	#178
Tony Stark Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 9,626	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Except for the fact that both Cheney and Biden are old white men who have been VPs and have served in Congress, they are diametric opposites. Cheney is smart; Biden is dumb. Cheney is cold and ruthless; Biden is warm and sympathetic; Cheney is articulate; Biden is a gaffe machine. Cheney probably doesn't even like to touch himself; Biden will grab anything that's warm and too slow to get away. I would much rather have a beer with Biden, although I would keep my wife and daughter far away from him. Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism, the lives of nobody even knows how many Iraqis, trillions of dollars, and the goodwill of the world. Not to mention the fact that Saddam kept Islamists in line. Altogether, a monumental blunder. Like one of the worst decisions ever made by any American. He also is responsible for CIA's illegal, disgusting, and ineffective torture regime which probably caused more damage to the US's reputation than was inflicted upon al Qaeda because of it. I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again. Frankly, one of Obama's biggest failures is that Cheney isn't in prison. Not only does justice require it, but failing to deliver justice means that others are more likely to repeat the behavior as precedent will dictate that they won't be held personally responsible for their crimes. I'll take Biden, no contest over the psychopath war criminal that is proud of the massive damage he is responsible for. Hell, I would take Sarah Palin and she's about the biggest joke in the GOP.
Tony Stark Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 9,626	Last edited by Tony Stark; 25th February 2015 at 01:56 PM.

25th February 2015, 01:55 PM	#179
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Upchurch And...? Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note. Quote: Of course, you do. Why? Because it lasted less than two seconds, Bush and Merkel were friends, and Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat. She also smiled afterwards. Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world.

25th February 2015, 02:01 PM	#180
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Tony Stark Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism, the lives of nobody even knows how many Iraqis, trillions of dollars, and the goodwill of the world. Not to mention the fact that Saddam kept Islamists in line. Altogether, a monumental blunder. Like one of the worst decisions ever made by any American. He also is responsible for CIA's illegal, disgusting, and ineffective torture regime which probably caused more damage to the US's reputation than was inflicted upon al Qaeda because of it. I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again. Frankly, one of Obama's biggest failures is that Cheney isn't in prison. Not only does justice require it, but failing to deliver justice means that others are more likely to repeat the behavior as precedent will dictate that they won't be held personally responsible for their crimes. Does that mean you'd rather have a beer with Cheney? Quote: I'll take Biden, no contest over the psychopath war criminal that is proud of the massive damage he is responsible for. Hell, I would take Sarah Palin and she's about the biggest joke in the GOP. Oh, well I agree, if you're talking about beer. I'd rather go hunting with Palin though, that's for sure.

25th February 2015, 02:13 PM	#181
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,468	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note. Yes, and the Daily Show did not treat him with kid gloves, did they? Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Bush and Merkel were friends Evidence? Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat. Evidence that Carter did not? Originally Posted by sunmaster14 She also smiled afterwards. Carter smiled the whole time. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world. Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks. What this boils down to is that you've come up with a narrative that justifies Bush's actions but condemns Biden's and you are now asserting that narrative as fact despite there being nothing to support that narrative.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

25th February 2015, 02:18 PM	#182
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,863	Originally Posted by Tony Stark Cheney is responsible, perhaps even more than Bush, for a completely pointless war that cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism, Off the top of my head, that's 4,500 KIA in Iraq and another 2,000 in Afghanistan, and call it another 1,000 from training and transportation exercises. So 7,500. That's "more lives than have ever died from terrorism?" No, it actually isn't. Originally Posted by Tony Stark I don't think any living person person has affected the world in such a negative way yet he says that he is proud of what he did and would do it again. Vladimir Putin, Kim Jung-Un, Juan-María Bodebarry, Raúl Castro, Robert Mugabe, Radovan Karadzic, Mswati III, Al-Sadaad in Syria, Aleksander Lukashenko, Ratko Mladić, Omar al-Bashir, Nguema in Equatorial Guinea, etc. In summary, you are completely, 100% wrong.
	Last edited by carlitos; 25th February 2015 at 02:37 PM. Reason: typo

25th February 2015, 02:21 PM	#183
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,804	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Did you even watch the video? Joe Biden's behavior has been out of line for a long time. It finally took a 28 second violation of another human being's personal space to get a liberal comedian to take note. I watched it, for a comedy show it was pretty good. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Because it lasted less than two seconds, Bush and Merkel were friends, They were friends? Weird, I can't seem to find any information stating the two, outside of a work relationship, had any form of relationship at all. Conjecture? Originally Posted by sunmaster14 and Merkel felt powerful enough to essentially throw off the embrace of the most powerful man in the world without skipping a beat. As well she should, if she wanted too. Any woman should do the same, and I don't doubt for a moment that many do. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 She also smiled afterwards. And this means? Was Stephanie Carter frowning? Crying? Upset? Can you tell how she's felt by all the things she's said in the press? What does smiling mean? Maybe Merkel didn't want an uncomfortable situation to become worse. You don't laugh stuff off sometimes? Weird. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world. Which of course you have evidence to support your ridiculous conjecture, right? That she HAD to endure it? I mean, 28 seconds, really? Excruciatingly prolonged and gross? He didn't have his hand on her chest. So in summary I need evidence that she had to endure it, that is was prolonged, a gross violation, and that she was terrified of being rude. Let me know when you get any of those things, if you have none of that, retract your statements as they're nothing more than your conjecture. I'll be waiting.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

25th February 2015, 02:30 PM	#184
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,863	Originally Posted by plague311 They were friends? Weird, I can't seem to find any information stating the two, outside of a work relationship, had any form of relationship at all. Conjecture? The info is out there. Are you sure that you looked? http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-426725.html Friendship & Interest. Why Merkel and Bush get along so well. Merkel invited W and his wife to her seaside home for bbq. And she and the hubby were invited to the ranch in Crawford.

25th February 2015, 02:30 PM	#185
DavidJames Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Front Range, CO Posts: 10,493	Originally Posted by Upchurch Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks. Consider the vast (failed) body of work attempting to read the minds of others, readily available on this site, I'd suggest that's not a viable option.
	__________________ For 15 years I never put anyone on ignore. I felt it important to see everyone's view point. Finally I realized the value of some views can be measured in negative terms and were personally destructive.

25th February 2015, 02:35 PM	#186
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Upchurch Yes, and the Daily Show did not treat him with kid gloves, did they? After six years of embarrassing behavior, it was certainly about time. Quote: Evidence? Here. Quote: In contrast to the back-slapping (and shoulder-massaging) she shared with George W. Bush, Merkel regards Obama warily, though they share the same cerebral style. ... Not surprisingly, Merkel herself insists that she gets along just fine with Obama. “I had a reliable, friendly relationship with President Bush, and I have a very good and friendly relationship with President Obama,” she told me. Sounds like she's looking for a shoulder massage from Obama too. Quote: Evidence that Carter did not? She looked kind of uncomfortable to me. Also, her husband went out of his way to put his hand on her shoulder, as if to say "Back off buddy." Joe got his hand out of there just in time. Take a look at the video. Quote: <snip> Your mind-reading powers are truly amazing. I know where you can make a quick million bucks. But it's not really mind-reading. It's interpretation of body language and facial expressions. It's not 100%, but it's reasonably accurate. Quote: What this boils down to is that you've come up with a narrative that justifies Bush's actions but condemns Biden's and you are now asserting that narrative as fact despite there being nothing to support that narrative. I'm not asserting it as fact, but if you're a journalist and you're going to attack somebody for being a harasser, you need more than just a two second faux pas. In the case of Biden, there is plenty more to go on.

25th February 2015, 02:42 PM	#187
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,759	Originally Posted by Crossbow I suggest that you read the whole thing as opposed to just the bit that suits your immediate purpose. Biden did agree to the Iraq War based on the data that was largely provided by the Bush Administration, and at the time of the vote, the Bush Administration had a great deal of credibility in regards to foreign policy. But later, it turned out that the Bush Administration was nothing but a load of lairs and war criminals. In any event, Biden went on to say in the very same interview that you cite: Quote: Quote: The thing that I regret, and I’ll say it again, and I said it way before ‘07 and going to Iowa, is that I regret having had the—believed that this administration had any competence. It is the most incompetent administration I’ve ever—if I’d known they were going to misuse the authority we gave them the way they did, if I’d known that they were going to, once they used it, be so incompetent in the using of it, I would have never ever, ever given them the authority. If I were president, would I have asked for the authority? I would have asked for the authority in order to demonstrate to the world that they better not be lifting sanctions, they better not be putting pressure on having no-fly zones, and they better join with us in putting the screws onto Saddam by screwing down the sanctions on Saddam as opposed to lifting the sanctions. That’s what the debate was about at the time. I see him disagreeing with him voting for the war (wasn't he running for POTUS at the time?), not the intelligence of WMD which was assumed true back to the Clinton administration. As has been shown in other threads, Saddam admitted in interviews prior to his well deserved hanging that he was going to continue where he left off with developing WMD.
Wolrab Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 4,759	__________________ "Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov

25th February 2015, 02:43 PM	#188
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,358	It might have saved some time (and focused the arguments better) if the thread had been titled, "Who's Not Embarrassed by Joe Biden?"
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

25th February 2015, 02:46 PM	#189
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,863	There's nothing worse than a load of lairs. So many places to hide.

25th February 2015, 02:57 PM	#190
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,468	Originally Posted by sunmaster14 After six years of embarrassing behavior, it was certainly about time. Is Biden's (or Bush's) creepy hands really the biggest or most important issue to cover? Originally Posted by sunmaster14 Here. Can't view. Apparently, I've looked at too many Newsweek articles this month. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 She looked kind of uncomfortable to me. And, from "looked kind of uncomfortable to me", you reached this conclusion? Quote: Stephanie Carter had to endure an excruciatingly prolonged and gross violation of her personal space because she was terrified of being rude to the man who is first in line to the most powerful office in the world. Originally Posted by sunmaster14 But it's not really mind-reading. It's interpretation of body language and facial expressions. It's not 100%, but it's reasonably accurate. And, yet, from Merkel's body language, where she reacts almost like she's in pain, you concluded that she and Bush have a secret relationship, away from the public eye? Originally Posted by sunmaster14 I'm not asserting it as fact You didn't say she seemed terrified, you stated that she was terrified. You didn't say she appeared to be enduring a gross violation of her personal space, you stated that she did endure a gross violation of her personal space. Merkel, on the other hand, who actually reacted like she had just received a gross violation of her personal space, well, she and Bush are secret buddies, so that's okay.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

25th February 2015, 02:58 PM	#191
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,863	Despite my prior comments, I have no dog in this fight. But, I'd like to mention that Americans really aren't qualified to read German body language or facial expressions. It's a completely different thing, and you are most likely way, way off when you do so.

25th February 2015, 02:59 PM	#192
Tony Stark Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 9,626	Originally Posted by carlitos Of the top of my head, that's 4,500 KIA in Iraq and another 2,000 in Afghanistan, and call it another 1,000 from training and transportation exercises. So 7,500. That's "more lives than have ever died from terrorism?" No, it actually isn't. Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism. Quote: Vladimir Putin, Kim Jung-Un, Juan-María Bodebarry, Raúl Castro, Robert Mugabe, Radovan Karadzic, Mswati III, Al-Sadaad in Syria, Aleksander Lukashenko, Ratko Mladić, Omar al-Bashir, Nguema in Equatorial Guinea, etc. In summary, you are completely, 100% wrong. Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating a power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out.
Tony Stark Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 9,626	Last edited by Tony Stark; 25th February 2015 at 03:04 PM.

25th February 2015, 03:10 PM	#193
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,863	Originally Posted by Tony Stark Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism. I really don't have "comprehension issues," but your phrasing was unclear to me. Around 7,000 Americans "died because of Cheney" in your view. In the past few decades, 4 or 5,000 have died from terrorism. I suppose that you are correct, but I'd have to look it up to see if "ever" was true. Originally Posted by Tony Stark Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating the power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out. I thought that it would take a few more posts before you moved the goalposts and started with the special pleading. My mistake. If you'd like to learn something, go back and read the words that you wrote, as well as my response.
	Last edited by carlitos; 25th February 2015 at 03:11 PM.

25th February 2015, 03:19 PM	#194
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Upchurch Is Biden's (or Bush's) creepy hands really the biggest or most important issue to cover? You could say the same about any thread here. We pick a horse, argue over it, kill it, beat it, and then move on. At least that's what I like to do. Quote: Can't view. Apparently, I've looked at too many Newsweek articles this month. Don't bother. Carlitos' links are far more persuasive. Quote: And, from "looked kind of uncomfortable to me", you reached this conclusion? And, yet, from Merkel's body language, where she reacts almost like she's in pain, you concluded that she and Bush have a secret relationship, away from the public eye? I was joking around, but the point is that we don't really know if Bush was harassing Merkel. Actually, from what I've learned from Carlitos' links, I'd have to say that they were already very comfortable with one another, and my link implied that there was reciprocal "back-slapping." Quote: You didn't say she seemed terrified, you stated that she was terrified. You didn't say she appeared to be enduring a gross violation of her personal space, you stated that she did endure a gross violation of her personal space. Fine, in the case of Stephanie Carter, I withdraw any claims to certainty. However, I think the probability that at least several of Biden's recent close encounters with female family members of new appointees and Congressmen constituted unwelcome intrusions of personal space is close to 1.

25th February 2015, 03:23 PM	#195
sunmaster14 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Tony Stark Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said that it "cost more Americans their lives than have ever died from terrorism". My meaning is clear but let me restate since you have comprehension issues: more Americans died because of Cheney than have ever died from terrorism. I don't think it's fair that you attribute all of those deaths to Cheney. Why should he get all the credit? Quote: Which of those men is responsible for a pointless war that cost ~500k people their lives? Which of those men is responsible for creating a power vacuum that allowed a terrorist group to take over large amounts of territory and declaring itself a state? The damage Cheney is responsible for is unmatched and still ongoing. ISIS is trying to draw the US into another ground conflict that will be framed as a holy war, and Republicans are probably dumb enough to take the bait if they take the WH so who knows how that will turn out. 500,000 people? In Iraq? That number sounds wildly inflated. Also, why does Cheney get all of the credit for sectarian violence, most of which was probably inevitable anyway? What about all of the people that Saddam didn't get to kill? Shouldn't we subtract those guys from Cheney's kill count?