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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , joe biden

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Old 3rd November 2020, 07:25 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Conservative voters do not riot and loot urban areas. They mostly do not even live in them. The boarding up is obviously done against what we have seen all year in cites around the country. These owners are hedging and do not want to lose their businesses in case of some mob reaction to a Trump win, however improbable the polls may have it. They have been wrong before.
I’m sure the right wing terrorists who murder people and threaten the lives of government officials will protect conservative voters from the potential scourge of broken windows.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 07:26 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
I started to type 'If America re-elects Trump then it's finished and deservedly so' but then realised that's a bit unfair on the probably comfortably more than 1/2 of voters who'll vote for Biden and still somehow lose...
At least turnout this time will be sufficiently high so that "couldn't be bothered" won't be the largest single group.

It's still sad that there will be millions who won't be able to vote for one reason or another though.

Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
WTAF America though, this shouldn't even be close!
No. It should be a landslide, but that's only if you apply a different set of values than 40-45% of people have. What I might consider reasonable steps to constrain the spread of a pandemic, they think are intolerable constraints on their liberty. What I might think of as reasonable taxation to fund public services, they think of as theft.

My values are as alien to them, as theirs are to me. Perhaps more so because conservatives appear to be less able to consider another person's point of view.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 07:27 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I’m sure the right wing terrorists who murder people and threaten the lives of government officials will protect conservative voters from the potential scourge of broken windows.
Listen white people's property being much more important than the lives of brown people is a time honored tradition of the right.

That's why the social discourse right now is "Well I wwwwwaaaassss going to be concerned about massive civil rights violations up to and including murder by law enforcement... but then I saw some black people knock over a trash can and know I don't know what to believe..."
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Old 3rd November 2020, 07:28 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Yeah, as indicate above, I am worried about a high turnout.
The anti-Trump voters (and lets face it- that is all us "Biden Supporters" are) are already as motivated as any voting block has been in a long time. That there is massive turnout may indicate that the Trumpsters are rising to the challenge.

I need a Tums.
I'm eyeing up some Icelandic Akavit that's been in the freezer for more than four years.

Even a Trump victory couldn't be worse than that
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Old 3rd November 2020, 07:38 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Conservative voters do not riot and loot urban areas. They mostly do not even live in them. The boarding up is obviously done against what we have seen all year in cites around the country. These owners are hedging and do not want to lose their businesses in case of some mob reaction to a Trump win, however improbable the polls may have it. They have been wrong before.
I tend to agree that urban areas are not preparing for pro-Trump riots but anti-Trump riots.

But it's not just about the odds Trump wins. It's also about the odds that he tries to claim a victory when he's lost. Desperate shenanigans will likely lead to large protests which sometimes come with looting.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 07:45 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I tend to agree that urban areas are not preparing for pro-Trump riots but anti-Trump riots.

But it's not just about the odds Trump wins. It's also about the odds that he tries to claim a victory when he's lost. Desperate shenanigans will likely lead to large protests which sometimes come with looting.
Nobody wants to miss out on their chance to riot this year.
If Trump gets elected, it will absolutely demand that Foot-Lockers, Phone Stores, and drug stores be looted.
If defeated, the celebratory looting will be oddly similar in appearance.

Glad we are already all boarded up here in Philly.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:05 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Nobody wants to miss out on their chance to riot this year.
If Trump gets elected, it will absolutely demand that Foot-Lockers, Phone Stores, and drug stores be looted.
If defeated, the celebratory looting will be oddly similar in appearance.

Glad we are already all boarded up here in Philly.
What are the people of Philadelphia doing to prepare themselves for being murdered by right wingers if Trump loses?
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:07 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Do you really think businesses are boarding up because they think Trump is going to win and Biden supporters are going to riot? Surely the reverse is much more likely.
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Picture me with the straightest face you can imagine:

There store fronts are being boarded up in case Trump supports [sic] go wild if he loses.

This is NYC I'm talking about. They can be preparing for a Trump victory or a Trump loss, but either way it's not Trump supporters they are boarding up in response to. If the reality around that changes I will be glad to accept it, but until then I don't see a need to avoid the obvious.


Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That’s because right wingers aren’t satisfied with vandalism. They kill people and plot to kidnap elected officials.

Yes, only right wingers have attempted to kill elected officials. We should definitely ignore any events that happened in recent memory where that was not the case, because if we don't than we can't use that talking point.


Not directed at anyone in particular but the first part of my question seemed to be glossed over. Does anyone have memory of an election with this kind of preparation for violence due to the results? I am probably at the younger end of the posters here but I can't think of anything remotely close.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:11 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Conservative voters do not riot and loot urban areas. They mostly do not even live in them.
This is false - with the most notable examples being Boogaloo Boys, the Proud Boys, and in many cases the local police. In truth, there was little to no rioting in most cities on election day in almost every case, and even Dolt 45's inauguration saw a small handful of anarchists breaking windows - followed by a massive DoJ mess where people were rounded up indiscriminately and prosecuted with no basis, known as the J20 prosecutions.

Personally, I'm still far more worried about the same groups going violent, attacking people, and so forth, regardless of whether Toupee Fiasco wins or loses. Because they've made it clear for years that this is simply what they want to do - thus the fantasies about running people over, shooting nonwhite people, wild conspiracy theories about child sacrifices in the nonexistent basements of local pizza parlors, and so forth.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:11 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
What are the people of Philadelphia doing to prepare themselves for being murdered by right wingers if Trump loses?
For some reason, we are amazingly unconcerned with that possibility.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:14 AM   #91
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Anyone who is claiming they think the precautions are for right wing rioters is not being honest and/or serious, not sure which.

If Trump loses you'll see some whining, maybe hear about some guys in trucks somewhere honking a bit, and later you'll hear about the FBI stopping some militia group who planned to do something trivial and if you dig into it you'll find out the FBI actually put them up to it anyway.

If Trump wins, especially if it's close or there's any sort of disputed element, the left / Antifa / BLM will continue doing what they've done for months and they will burn and loot and commit violence.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:15 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Yes, only right wingers have attempted to kill elected officials. We should definitely ignore any events that happened in recent memory where that was not the case, because if we don't than we can't use that talking point.
We don’t need to use “talking points“. We can use aggregated data. It paints a pretty clear picture of where the majority of the violence is coming from, and it’s not antifa window-breakers.

Quote:
Not directed at anyone in particular but the first part of my question seemed to be glossed over. Does anyone have memory of an election with this kind of preparation for violence due to the results? I am probably at the younger end of the posters here but I can't think of anything remotely close.
Probably not. Mostly because we don’t usually have one of the candidates of a presidential election who actively condones and provokes violence from his supporters.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:17 AM   #93
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Well we're back in Trumper fantasy land where the big mean... wussy latte-sipping, kale-eating, limp wristed liberals who don't know which bathroom to use and need safe spaces are also the biggest terrorist group in the world.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:19 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Anyone who is claiming they think the precautions are for right wing rioters is not being honest and/or serious, not sure which.

If Trump loses you'll see some whining, maybe hear about some guys in trucks somewhere honking a bit, and later you'll hear about the FBI stopping some militia group who planned to do something trivial and if you dig into it you'll find out the FBI actually put them up to it anyway.

If Trump wins, especially if it's close or there's any sort of disputed element, the left / Antifa / BLM will continue doing what they've done for months and they will burn and loot and commit violence.
Here’s you, openly advocating for state-sanctioned mass murder:
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I wish the police were just straight up opening fire on these groups of protestors at this point
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:20 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well we're back in Trumper fantasy land where the big mean... wussy latte -kale-eating limp wristed liberals who don't know which bathroom to use and need safe spaces are also the biggest terrorist group in the world.
And where “something trivial” = a plot to kidnap a governor.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:21 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Yes, only right wingers have attempted to kill elected officials. We should definitely ignore any events that happened in recent memory where that was not the case, because if we don't than we can't use that talking point.
While it's entirely reasonable to say that businesses boarding up in NYC are far more concerned about Trump winning outrage than Biden winning outrage... trying to create a false equivalence isn't going to help your case on that point. There really is no honest equivalence to be found between the left and right when it comes to extremist killings and violence.


Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Not directed at anyone in particular but the first part of my question seemed to be glossed over. Does anyone have memory of an election with this kind of preparation for violence due to the results? I am probably at the younger end of the posters here but I can't think of anything remotely close.
I'm not coming up with anything close, either, really, in recent history. And that's fundamentally one of the main reasons that Trump really needs to be gone.

With that said, though, I feel like poking at a couple headlines/articles -

On this day 100 years ago, a White mob unleashed the deadliest Election Day violence in US history

And...

Violence Has Long Been a Feature of American Elections

In America's past, efforts by disadvantaged citizens to secure greater political influence have been met with violent repression
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Here’s you, openly advocating for state-sanctioned mass murder:
That's me saying that when you have people who are burning cities down, throwing bricks at police's heads, attacking people they perceive to be the wrong political camp and/or wrong race and/or a business owner - and they've been doing this across the country for months, it isn't unreasonable to give the police / national guard orders to start firing at them with live rounds.

Because it isn't unreasonable. It's incredibly, breath-takingly basic and normal to suggest that.

It's actually remarkable that it wasn't done months ago. The great majority of these events happened BECAUSE it wasn't done.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:24 AM   #98
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Here in New Jersey, we've been seeing Trumpanzee parades, pickemup trucks with flags and banners honking their horns and blocking traffic (no guns, tho, no-carry State). Yesterday one had a black armored personnel carrier in with the pickemups. Pretty sure that had to come from county SORT, but I couldn't see the plates or lettering. Also pretty sure it shouldn't legally have been used there. Then again, two local municipalities here have 'In God We Trust' on the backs of cop cars.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:26 AM   #99
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Oh Trump still has the "Giant Ovesized Pickup Truck Flag" demographic locked down pretty much 100%.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:27 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
That's me saying that when you have people who are burning cities down, throwing bricks at police's heads, attacking people they perceive to be the wrong political camp and/or wrong race and/or a business owner - and they've been doing this across the country for months, it isn't unreasonable to give the police / national guard orders to start firing at them with live rounds.

Because it isn't unreasonable. It's incredibly, breath-takingly basic and normal to suggest that.

It's actually remarkable that it wasn't done months ago. The great majority of these events happened BECAUSE it wasn't done.
If you are an occupying force in a foreign country you may have a point but in the USA citizens shooting citizens as you describe should be totally abhorrent and "unreasonable" to any decent human being.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:28 AM   #101
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County gov't militarized vehicles along side them scare the bejeezus out of me.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:29 AM   #102
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Well the board's open white supremacist is perfectly okay with opening fire on "protestors" (read "Brown people.")

That's not exactly surprising. But I wish others would acknowledge the company they are keeping.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:29 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
It is easier to vote against. IMO higher turnout is good sign for Biden (taking aside general view that higher turnout favors democrats on average).
I think so, too. I think it means young people and minorities voting in higher percentages than they normally do.

However, I know that I have read news stories about Republicans recruiting first time voters to keep the evil socialists at bay. The next polls close eight hours from now, so we'll start to see some indications at that time.


On a related note, the change in turnout actually affects the poll predictions themselves. As people have been pointing out, polls aren't really polls anymore. In a poll, you ask people how they'll vote, and you add up your responses and those are your poll results. What really happens these days is that you ask a certain number of people, and you know that the voting population is made up of X% white, an Y% over 50 and whatever profile you know is voting. Then, if your samples don't match the percentage that's in the projecteed electorate, you "weight" your results, so that if there are not enough white males that responded, you multiply the responses by some factor so that the white males who did respond get extra weight in your final results.

So, there's an historical percentage of how many young people show up to vote. That's what the poll weights are based on. If a higher percentage of young people show up than what the pollsters expect, the weights will be wrong, and the results will be wrong.

This election is like no other before it, so I can't expect the polls to be correct.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:30 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Anyone who is claiming they think the precautions are for right wing rioters is not being honest and/or serious, not sure which.

If Trump loses you'll see some whining, maybe hear about some guys in trucks somewhere honking a bit, and later you'll hear about the FBI stopping some militia group who planned to do something trivial and if you dig into it you'll find out the FBI actually put them up to it anyway.

If Trump wins, especially if it's close or there's any sort of disputed element, the left / Antifa / BLM will continue doing what they've done for months and they will burn and loot and commit violence.
Looking at the terrorists the FBI arrested who were going to kidnap and/or murder the governor in Michigan, if they do arrest more of their kind the country will have lost no one of value. We can always get immigrants to replace their kind and they would be better Americans.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:30 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
This is false - with the most notable examples being Boogaloo Boys, the Proud Boys, and in many cases the local police.
For what it's worth, I had let that particular statement slide because I don't consider any of those groups to be "conservatives." Right-wing =/= conservative, after all. Also of note is that the preparations would be based on fears far more than objective assessments of reality, especially after both the MSM and right-wing media spent rather disproportionate time on the rioters during the protests.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:31 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm at my polling place, a school. I've never seen more than 50 people tops. The line today wraps the block. I'm at the far end of the football field! I estimate 800 or so in line ahead of me. This one is different.
I'm in a comfortable suburb of Boston and showed up at 10:00am to find a line of maybe half a dozen. I imagine we have shorter lines because of more early voting, but I also imagine that this is a fairly privileged location.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:32 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well the board's open white supremacist is perfectly okay with opening fire on "protestors" (read "Brown people.")

That's not exactly surprising. But I wish others would acknowledge the company they are keeping.
Plenty of white antifa burning and destroying.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:32 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Plenty of white antifa burning and destroying.
I'm sure you just consider those race traitors, brown on the inside.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:33 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Plenty of white antifa burning and destroying.
Perhaps they aren't avid fans of police gunning people down? Just a thought.

eta: also, not antifa.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:35 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
That's me saying that when you have people who are burning cities down, .
No city has been remotely close to burning down. I'm not sure that is even possible given building codes.

You should retract your position.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:35 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Looking at the terrorists the FBI arrested who were going to kidnap and/or murder the governor in Michigan, if they do arrest more of their kind the country will have lost no one of value. We can always get immigrants to replace their kind and they would be better Americans.
The FBI is adept at finding misfit losers who they can insert an agent into, and start planting the seeds of "we should do ______" and then get the guys to eventually be talking about it enough that they decide its time to arrest them.

Based on what I've seen, that's exactly what happened with that incident about the governor. I don't think those fools were ever going to do anything.

The mastermind was an FBI agent putting them up to it. That's who the ringleader / main guy was, based on what I've read.

And these guys don't even seem to have really been right wing in any meaningful way, anyway. They were apparently anarchists who hated politicians on both sides, Trump included.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:36 AM   #112
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
That's me saying that when you have people who are burning cities down, throwing bricks at police's heads, attacking people they perceive to be the wrong political camp and/or wrong race and/or a business owner - and they've been doing this across the country for months, it isn't unreasonable to give the police / national guard orders to start firing at them with live rounds.

Because it isn't unreasonable. It's incredibly, breath-takingly basic and normal to suggest that.

It's actually remarkable that it wasn't done months ago. The great majority of these events happened BECAUSE it wasn't done.
I just checked the dictionary for the definition of the word “protestor”.

None of the words you just used to describe it were there.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:36 AM   #113
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The Trumptrash seemed to do a pretty good job of rioting in Portland when the morons had their little parade of trucks.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:36 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Yup, as angrysoba points out, we're seeing exactly the same thing as happened last time around:
  • The polls generally narrowing significantly as polling approaches - which usually happens
  • Swing states changing even more than the national numbers in President Trump's favour
  • President Trump performing within the margin of error, but outperforming the polls by 1% to 3%
No we are not.

538 has shown no significant change in polling averages in the past 3 days and shows Biden as a 90% favourite to win the White House. It still has him as a ~30% chance to win a landslide, *3 times more likely an outcome than Trump squeaking out an EC victory*

Swing states are tighter races, so they will be more swingy by definition, which doesn't indicate a great deal one way or the other.

We won't know how much Trump has under or over performed vs his polling averages fir a few days.

Quote:
OTOH if they are presented with a less exciting candidate, Gore, Hillary, Dukakis, Kerry, then they'll stay at home.
The GOP have put up an anti-rockstar candidate which means the Democrat voters are more than motivated to get out and vote. See early voting numbers to date.

I still think this is a landslide Biden win. I agree with theatheist that polls might well undercount young voters who generally favour Biden.

I still think Texas might flip blue. Its going to be that big a win.

Trump his cooked. Polling is more science than art and the polls are highly unlikely to be that far wrong again.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:40 AM   #115
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The FBI is adept at finding misfit losers who they can insert an agent into, and start planting the seeds of "we should do ______" and then get the guys to eventually be talking about it enough that they decide its time to arrest them.

Based on what I've seen, that's exactly what happened with that incident about the governor. I don't think those fools were ever going to do anything.

The mastermind was an FBI agent putting them up to it. That's who the ringleader / main guy was, based on what I've read.

And these guys don't even seem to have really been right wing in any meaningful way, anyway. They were apparently anarchists who hated politicians on both sides, Trump included.
One of them was anti Trump. Another made a pro Trump video. As for your lie about the FBI agent putting them up to it, I'll take the word of the US Attorney over some white supremacist thanks. White supremacists have certain issues with the claims they make if you follow my meaning.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:41 AM   #116
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The Trumptrash seemed to do a pretty good job of rioting in Portland when the morons had their little parade of trucks.
Right, but we can’t know with any degree of certainty that those people are right wingers or Trump supporters. Also, the FBI probably tricked them.

However, anyone who throws a brick through a window is a 100% certified Antifa super soldier personally trained by Obama at his hidden lair inside of a volcano.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:45 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
We don’t need to use “talking points“. We can use aggregated data. It paints a pretty clear picture of where the majority of the violence is coming from, and it’s not antifa window-breakers.
Or maybe I'm talking about the olden days of yore, i.e the 2017 Congressional baseball shooting.


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
While it's entirely reasonable to say that businesses boarding up in NYC are far more concerned about Trump winning outrage than Biden winning outrage... trying to create a false equivalence isn't going to help your case on that point. There really is no honest equivalence to be found between the left and right when it comes to extremist killings and violence.

I have not tried to create a false equivalence. It's just other posters adding whataboutism's they think prove some point that wasn't being made. I made an observation that is obvious, and I hate the idea everyone has to tip toe around the obvious.


Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I'm not coming up with anything close, either, really, in recent history. And that's fundamentally one of the main reasons that Trump really needs to be gone.

With that said, though, I feel like poking at a couple headlines/articles -

On this day 100 years ago, a White mob unleashed the deadliest Election Day violence in US history

And...

Violence Has Long Been a Feature of American Elections

In America's past, efforts by disadvantaged citizens to secure greater political influence have been met with violent repression
Ya political violence 100+ years ago was definitely the norm, especially in regards to black Americans voting or gaining political positions. What's scary are the countless stories that we probably will never know about because the victims weren't around after to tell their side.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:47 AM   #118
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Quote:
Here's today's Lincoln Project video.

Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but I loved it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjyhDMNB400
I mostly like that when the the song says "sea to shining sea" they don't cut to the Atlantic and Pacific coasts like a sophomore in art school.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:53 AM   #119
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
That's me saying that when you have people who are burning cities down, throwing bricks at police's heads, attacking people they perceive to be the wrong political camp and/or wrong race and/or a business owner - and they've been doing this across the country for months, it isn't unreasonable to give the police / national guard orders to start firing at them with live rounds.

Because it isn't unreasonable. It's incredibly, breath-takingly basic and normal to suggest that.

It's actually remarkable that it wasn't done months ago. The great majority of these events happened BECAUSE it wasn't done.
And that's where the disconnect seems to lie. What you say would be much more reasonable if your premises were actually meaningfully true. They're not.

In Portland, for example, the Feds were sent in over GRAFFITI in what was fairly certainly nothing more than a political stunt to try to make things escalate. Across the country, for that matter, police used tactics that have long been known to create and escalate violence among peaceful citizens exercising their 1st Amendment rights, with most right wing media actively working to do anything they could to make Republicans look better and Democrats look worse, with little regard for truth or principle. Right-wingers go far out of their way and murder cops? Not news. Right-wingers go far out of their way and murder peaceful citizens exercising their 1st Amendment rights? Obviously those right-wingers were justified in doing so. Left-winger ends up killing a right-winger who was actively looking to do harm? Time for an extrajudicial execution.

Before you lecture others about the speck in their eye, get the friggin plank out of your own.
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Old 3rd November 2020, 08:59 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
This is NYC I'm talking about. They can be preparing for a Trump victory or a Trump loss, but either way it's not Trump supporters they are boarding up in response to. If the reality around that changes I will be glad to accept it, but until then I don't see a need to avoid the obvious.





Yes, only right wingers have attempted to kill elected officials. We should definitely ignore any events that happened in recent memory where that was not the case, because if we don't than we can't use that talking point.


Not directed at anyone in particular but the first part of my question seemed to be glossed over. Does anyone have memory of an election with this kind of preparation for violence due to the results? I am probably at the younger end of the posters here but I can't think of anything remotely close.
We can argue about who might riot. But the real question is WHY. And it's obviously because of Trump. It's not a question of Biden winning or losing. It's about Trump winning or losing. Trump lies at the core of what stresses all in this election.
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