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Tags inaugurations , joe biden , Kamala Harris , presidential events

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Old 27th January 2021, 09:08 AM   #241
catsmate
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
No, it is never correct to start with a lie. Do better.
Well Trump did it, it's not really fair to expect Trumpettes do do any different.
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Old 27th January 2021, 09:10 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Lying is a literary choice now?

I think you could make a case that it is a lifestyle choice, but probably not one I would aspire to.

No, I have no desire to scorn you. And I don't really think you intend to debate in an honest way. Especially since you seem to think lying is a literary choice.

And there is another reason I don't expect the truth to matter much to you. I don't intend to debate with someone who believes alternative facts and thinks lying is the best way to start a post. But I may still step in to point out when I see post with lies in it. Not always, that would be too exhausting, but occasionally, if I have the time.
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Old 27th January 2021, 09:41 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He was elected on election day, and appointed President on inauguration day.....


Bull.
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Old 27th January 2021, 10:09 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Sure, but I already did:



This is a lie. You do not in fact wonder. You admitted as much.

Based on your posting history I believe it would be more honest of you to say:
I believe there is an important difference between hiring/placing the best qualified person for the job regardless of skin color as opposed to the best qualified person of a certain skin color for that job.
This appears to be a stylistic choice of yours. It makes your posts less clear. Maybe that is your intent, I do not know. But, the cloak of lying for stylistic purposes is hardly a shield against criticism of both form and function.
Understatement

Definition:
"This literary device refers to the practice of drawing attention to a fact that is already obvious and noticeable. Understating a fact is usually done by way of sarcasm, irony, wryness or any other form of dry humor. Understating something is akin to exaggerating its obviousness as a means of humor."

One should first learn how to understand a post, then intelligently debate the content if able. This speaks directly to my earlier assessment of your intentions.

I do not actually "wonder" whether Biden's actions of appointing positions based on race are racist. Obviously they are, if they were not, race would not have been a factor in the choice for the position.
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Old 27th January 2021, 10:21 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
This is what unconscious "systemic" racism looks like.
It's not always evil, not even intentional.
But it's effects linger. Generationaly.
Point of education*

If skin color is a factor in choosing someone for a job, THAT is racist.

We can tell ourselves all kinds of stories to make racism more acceptable and some frequently do, but at the end of the day racism is racism and it's wrong.
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Old 28th January 2021, 09:01 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Understatement

Definition:
"This literary device refers to the practice of drawing attention to a fact that is already obvious and noticeable. Understating a fact is usually done by way of sarcasm, irony, wryness or any other form of dry humor. Understating something is akin to exaggerating its obviousness as a means of humor."

One should first learn how to understand a post, then intelligently debate the content if able. This speaks directly to my earlier assessment of your intentions.

I do not actually "wonder" whether Biden's actions of appointing positions based on race are racist. Obviously they are, if they were not, race would not have been a factor in the choice for the position.
If you were aiming for sarcasm, irony, wryness, or any other form of dry humor, you missed the mark. Bigly.

Be better next time.
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Old 28th January 2021, 09:05 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Point of education*

If skin color is a factor in choosing someone for a job, THAT is racist.

We can tell ourselves all kinds of stories to make racism more acceptable and some frequently do, but at the end of the day racism is racism and it's wrong.
What if the person of color is better qualified to do the job because they are a person of color? Is that racist in your book, too?

It's funny, I can think of lots os situations where a person of color would be better at a job than someone who was not. But I have a hard time thinking of jobs where a person of color would be worse at the job because of their skin color. Maybe I'm just not creative enough.
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Old 28th January 2021, 09:30 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He was elected on election day, and appointed President on inauguration day.
That's nice. Wrong, but nice.

Quote:
And yes he is a rich old white man.
Holy pejorative horror, Batman!
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Old 28th January 2021, 10:54 AM   #249
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Even if there is reason for a choice of words, the Constitution has a word for what happened on January 20. There is a period during which the validity of a election can be contested, but if it is confirmed, then there is no option in who will take office.

Of course there's always some slack in language, but the word "appointed" at least implies that a choice is available to someone in charge. That is not the case in an election unless the election is overridden and someone who did not win the election is appointed as T**** apparently hoped would happen. Otherwise there is, I think, a good reason why the word "inaugurated" and not "appointed" is specified for the event.
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Old 28th January 2021, 01:52 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Point of education*

If skin color is a factor in choosing someone for a job, THAT is racist.

We can tell ourselves all kinds of stories to make racism more acceptable and some frequently do, but at the end of the day racism is racism and it's wrong.
Now, let me see if I have this right.

My wife and I, both white, have decided to adopt. Because we wish to give a helping hand to someone we perceive to be at some disadvantage, we're considering either a Hispanic child from Peru, or a Vietnamese orphan, or a black baby who was apparently left in a dumpster to die. We could choose a white kid, but we both want to help bring about a more multi-ethnic world, so we sign the papers for a little Asian girl.

So. Am I racist? My wife? At the end of the day?
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Old 28th January 2021, 03:35 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
It's funny, I can think of lots os situations where a person of color would be better at a job than someone who was not. But I have a hard time thinking of jobs where a person of color would be worse at the job because of their skin color. Maybe I'm just not creative enough.
You want to eat cake and have it too.

If someone is better at some job because of certain color of skin, it implies that someone else with different color of skin would be worse at the job.

Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
So. Am I racist? My wife? At the end of the day?
Positive racism is certainly more tolerable, but it is still racism.
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Old 28th January 2021, 08:48 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He was elected on election day, and appointed President on inauguration day.

And yes he is a rich old white man.
But he was not rich before he became VP. He was not rich while he was VP. He became rich through book deals and speaking engagements afterwards.
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Old 28th January 2021, 09:21 PM   #253
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People were expecting all kinds of stuff to happen that day but nothing did thankfully.....
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:47 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Now, let me see if I have this right.

My wife and I, both white, have decided to adopt. Because we wish to give a helping hand to someone we perceive to be at some disadvantage, we're considering either a Hispanic child from Peru, or a Vietnamese orphan, or a black baby who was apparently left in a dumpster to die. We could choose a white kid, but we both want to help bring about a more multi-ethnic world, so we sign the papers for a little Asian girl.

So. Am I racist? My wife? At the end of the day?
As you may be about to find, it could be argued that, yes, you are. This is ISF after all.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:09 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
You want to eat cake and have it too.

If someone is better at some job because of certain color of skin, it implies that someone else with different color of skin would be worse at the job.
I guess so. The thing is that there are jobs where having a POC would be a benefit, such as efforts to communicate with or create credibility within their community. But the reverse is not really true. Tiger Woods can sell just as many golf clubs as Phil Mickelson, even if most of the buyers are white. But Vanilla Ice is never going to sell as much product as Ice-T, if most of the target audience are POC.

It is a matter of trust. For hundreds of years the powers that be in the United States have told POC that they can not trust white people. And they have learned that lesson. And when they haven't, we have punished them harshly.

Therefore, after creating this huge inequality in trust it is to be expected that we will need to lean on POC to rebuild that trust.

The inequality exists and if your company wants to bridge that inequality to market and sell its services or products it will need POC inside those efforts to be successful. There are books to be written about old white men trying to influence markets they don't understand, and most of them will be quite funny.

I'd say the same is true of youth. If you want to have a credible presence on social media you better not have an old white guy running that effort without meaningful input from young people.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:25 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
As you may be about to find, it could be argued that, yes, you are. This is ISF after all.
Really I do not think it is possible to find an adult person that is not racist under some definition of the word. No functional person is completely blind to superficial "racial" features.
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:37 AM   #257
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We all have racist impulses, but the better of us do not by word or deed act on them.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:20 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He was elected on election day, and appointed President on inauguration day.
If that were true, it would be called Appointment day.

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-over...f-Appointments
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:23 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
As you may be about to find, it could be argued that, yes, you are. This is ISF after all.
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Really I do not think it is possible to find an adult person that is not racist under some definition of the word. No functional person is completely blind to superficial "racial" features.
Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
We all have racist impulses, but the better of us do not by word or deed act on them.
Seeing what there is to see is only racist by a definition of the word that's so broad as to make it meaningless; acting as if what you see is some automatic key for judging what's underneath is what the word is meant to convey. Racists don't get to get out from under a burden they've assumed by hairsplitting whatabouts that they can use to pretend everyone carries the same load.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:30 AM   #260
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Of course if you define racism as noticing race, we're all likely guilty of it, just as we're presumably sexist if we notice whether we're in the presence of a man or a woman. But clearly there are times when such a distinction is apt and when it is not. Because it's sexist to deny a job to a woman, is it sexist to base your marital choices on it? We don't, these days, consider it permissible to discriminate against left handed people, but it's not generally considered outré to make left handed golf clubs.

I think some people are arguing this wrong. There are circumstances where distinction requires certain actions in order to make the ultimate goal of equality work better. In the case of race, there is such a backlog of discriminatory actions and consequences that to advocate sudden colorblindness does not actually correct what needs to be corrected, but simply insures that the dominant, default situation continues uncorrected.

To suggest that this is racism, in the pejorative sense, is a bit like saying that since skidding is wrong, you shouldn't steer into a skid when it happens, or if you tilt too far to one side you shouldn't tilt the other way to keep from falling over.

To speak of correction as racism is to deny the deep seated damage and continued bias that we need to remedy.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:55 AM   #261
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This:
Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
We all have racist impulses, but the better of us do not by word or deed act on them.
This:
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Seeing what there is to see is only racist by a definition of the word that's so broad as to make it meaningless; acting as if what you see is some automatic key for judging what's underneath is what the word is meant to convey. Racists don't get to get out from under a burden they've assumed by hairsplitting whatabouts that they can use to pretend everyone carries the same load.
And this:
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course if you define racism as noticing race, we're all likely guilty of it, just as we're presumably sexist if we notice whether we're in the presence of a man or a woman. But clearly there are times when such a distinction is apt and when it is not. Because it's sexist to deny a job to a woman, is it sexist to base your marital choices on it? We don't, these days, consider it permissible to discriminate against left handed people, but it's not generally considered outré to make left handed golf clubs.

I think some people are arguing this wrong. There are circumstances where distinction requires certain actions in order to make the ultimate goal of equality work better. In the case of race, there is such a backlog of discriminatory actions and consequences that to advocate sudden colorblindness does not actually correct what needs to be corrected, but simply insures that the dominant, default situation continues uncorrected.

To suggest that this is racism, in the pejorative sense, is a bit like saying that since skidding is wrong, you shouldn't steer into a skid when it happens, or if you tilt too far to one side you shouldn't tilt the other way to keep from falling over.

To speak of correction as racism is to deny the deep seated damage and continued bias that we need to remedy.
I agree with completely.

Example: Our adopted daughter is part Inuit. My wife and I are not. By some stretched beyond reality definitions of racism my wife and I could be identified as racists for recognizing that. My view is that we are not
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Old 29th January 2021, 12:15 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
To speak of correction as racism is to deny the deep seated damage and continued bias that we need to remedy.
No one told you that two wrongs does not make right? If you think that correct course of action against, for example, "white privilege" is introduction of "black privilege" (obviously named totally differently so it is not too obvious it is same old crap), I can't help you.
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Old 29th January 2021, 12:34 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
No one told you that two wrongs does not make right? If you think that correct course of action against, for example, "white privilege" is introduction of "black privilege" (obviously named totally differently so it is not too obvious it is same old crap), I can't help you.
If your car pulls to the right, you have to steer a bit to the left to stay in your lane. This is bad for your tires over time. The better option is to fix the pull and then not have to steer away from it. But as you are driving to the alignment shop you don't all of a sudden ignore that your car pulls to the right, unless you want to end up in the ditch.

If we can erase all of the baggage of racism that pulls on our fellow citizens, then we don't have to keep yanking on the steering wheel to stay on the road. But until then, let's not ignore the problem and end up in the ditch.
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Old 29th January 2021, 06:47 PM   #264
Mader Levap
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
If your car pulls to the right, you have to steer a bit to the left to stay in your lane. This is bad for your tires over time. The better option is to fix the pull and then not have to steer away from it. But as you are driving to the alignment shop you don't all of a sudden ignore that your car pulls to the right, unless you want to end up in the ditch.

If we can erase all of the baggage of racism that pulls on our fellow citizens, then we don't have to keep yanking on the steering wheel to stay on the road. But until then, let's not ignore the problem and end up in the ditch.
I find your comparison utterly ridiculous.

Feel free to continue supporting racist polices just because blacks are beneficiaries instead of whites.
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:13 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I find your comparison utterly ridiculous.

Feel free to continue supporting racist polices just because blacks are beneficiaries instead of whites.
My brother-in-law is white, as am I. We each own a retail shop, his a burger joint, mine an ice cream parlor, both situated downtown, across the street from each other. We both have “Help Wanted” signs in our front windows, coincidentally identical.

One day I happened to see a young black man walk out of the burger place. I thought nothing of it until, a couple minutes later, the BIL walked though my door (which rings a little tinkly bell) as upset as I’d seen him in quite a while.

“Ain’t no way,” he said. “I don’t care what anybody says, ain’t no way I’m hiring one a them for behind the counter handling everbody’s food! I’ll serve ‘em, their money’s as good as anybody’s, but that’s it.”

Fortunately, there was no one in my place at the time, so my brother-in-law’s little rant wasn’t going to disturb anybody, never mind he turned and walked right back out, not even considering I might have something to say in response.

As my head turned to follow my wife’s hot-headed sibling re-cross the street, my eyes caught sight of the same young man whose interest in flipping burgers for a few bucks an hour incensed my relative so, waiting at the corner bus stop. It wasn’t far, so even though I hustled out to beat the bus’s arrival I wasn’t out of breath when I offered him a job scooping cones.

With that, I guess I have to admit it, I’m a racist. Right?
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:35 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
Now, let me see if I have this right.

My wife and I, both white, have decided to adopt. Because we wish to give a helping hand to someone we perceive to be at some disadvantage, we're considering either a Hispanic child from Peru, or a Vietnamese orphan, or a black baby who was apparently left in a dumpster to die. We could choose a white kid, but we both want to help bring about a more multi-ethnic world, so we sign the papers for a little Asian girl.

So. Am I racist? My wife? At the end of the day?
Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post


Positive racism is certainly more tolerable, but it is still racism.
Racism can be positive? I guess if you read Urban Dictionary it can be. Seems like a different term would be in order in this case.

If he picked a white child would he be racist? If so then what could he possibly do to not be racist in this case? Not adopt an orphan child at all?

He obviously was not looking for a specific race of child as he had three different ones to choose from.

Regnad, you are pretty damn far from racist.
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:55 PM   #267
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In an ideal world positive discrimination would be neither necessary nor acceptable.

This is not an ideal world.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:38 PM   #268
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
I do not actually "wonder" whether Biden's actions of appointing positions based on race are racist. Obviously they are, if they were not, race would not have been a factor in the choice for the position.
And this is what made your argument dishonest. You don't really wonder, but "I wonder" is a handy rhetorical device that, among other things, helps the speaker avoid making a claim.

My impression is that conservatives are worse about this than liberals. Maybe I just don't notice when liberals do it.

So, IMO, you've progressed here, being more direct, more or less saying Biden is racist. I think picking a running mate is not quite the same as hiring the most qualified person to do a job, because you are looking to balance the ticket so that you can each attract different demographics to your team. Age, geography and gender are all factors, because you're looking for variety, for someone who appeals to a somewhat different constituency.

Last edited by Minoosh; 30th January 2021 at 12:08 AM. Reason: added a fair bit
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Old 30th January 2021, 12:20 AM   #269
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There is a more structural definition of racism that involves more than simply reacting differently to different people based on skin color.

Under that view racism is a system for keeping people down, favoring an in-group that has monopolized power over an extended period. I don't know if I totally buy into that, because I think anyone can be racist, but I can also see how the more political definition also describes a real phenomenon.
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Old 30th January 2021, 09:28 AM   #270
Mader Levap
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Racism can be positive?
Yep. Word "positive" is not used here in meaning of "moral judgement"*.

In this context, it means discrimination that is beneficial for someone with certain color of skin.
In contrast, "standard" racism, kind that we hear about most often, is negative racism - discrimination against someone with certain color of skin.

Obviously, in instances where there is zero-sum game, these two cases are two sides of same coin. In other instances I find it more acceptable (I will take completely aside discussion about who what and when deserve it - it is separate issue imo).

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
He obviously was not looking for a specific race of child as he had three different ones to choose from.
"I will pick someone from any race except race x" is still racism, however acceptable this particular instance we find.

To be clear: I do agree some degree of "racism" is inevitable and unavoidable. But if people can whine about "people tending to gravitate to hire people who feel familiar, who share a speaking style, a dress style, a cultural background", I can nitpick about things like selecting anyone except white.

*For example, phrase like "Positive result for HIV" show different meaning of this word than commonly used.
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