Teddy Muhammad

[ravdin]

More insanity from the Religion of Perpetual Outrage.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2947734.ece

[richardm]

I've just been reading the BBC's account of it. Absolutely crazy.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by ravdin

More insanity from the Religion of Perpetual Outrage.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2947734.ece

Yes, it's pretty sick, but to be fair, she might not have been formally charged and she certainly hasn't been convicted.

Saying she's 'facing 40 lashes' is a bit like saying, "Bill the British guy is facing three months in prison and a £2500 fine after he deliberately snapped Fred's pencil in half". That is indeed the maximum sentence he could theoretically face for Criminal Damage, but as his crime is at the other end of the scale, so will be the penalty.

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Yes, it's pretty sick, but to be fair, she might not have been formally charged and she certainly hasn't been convicted.

Saying she's 'facing 40 lashes' is a bit like saying, "Bill the British guy is facing three months in prison and a £2500 fine after he deliberately snapped Fred's pencil in half". That is indeed the maximum sentence he could theoretically face for Criminal Damage, but as his crime is at the other end of the scale, so will be the penalty.

You don't get it, do you? The fact that she faces any punishment at all is an abomination.

[Wildy]

So you can't call a bear Muhammed, but you can call a child that?

I would have thought that a person would be far more dangerous to name after a holy figure then a toy bear because the person could do many evil things that would hurt the name.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by BPSCG

You don't get it, do you? The fact that she faces any punishment at all is an abomination.

Absolutely, but let's come at it from that angle, rather than the 40-lashes hyperbole. The situation is bad enough as it is - exaggeration is superfluous.

[Tokenconservative]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Yes, it's pretty sick, but to be fair, she might not have been formally charged and she certainly hasn't been convicted.

Saying she's 'facing 40 lashes' is a bit like saying, "Bill the British guy is facing three months in prison and a £2500 fine after he deliberately snapped Fred's pencil in half". That is indeed the maximum sentence he could theoretically face for Criminal Damage, but as his crime is at the other end of the scale, so will be the penalty.

Wow....I mean, just...wow.

What sort of intellectual masturbation do you have to go through, and how pretzelized must you make your "logic" to believe what this poster is saying.

No, Ian, it's actually like saying this: Sudan, like most Muslim nations, is a barbaric place that does things like this.

That's what it's like saying.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Originally Posted by Wildy

So you can't call a bear Muhammed, but you can call a child that?

I would have thought that a person would be far more dangerous to name after a holy figure then a toy bear because the person could do many evil things that would hurt the name.

A stuffed animal is an idol. In actual fact, under Sha' ria (sp...oh, wait...I don't really care) law, the bear itself should be illegal, naming it is another thing.

Tokie

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

No, Ian, it's actually like saying this: Sudan, like most Muslim nations, is a barbaric place that does things like this.

You forgot to blame it on the liberals.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

A stuffed animal is an idol. In actual fact, under Sha' ria (sp...oh, wait...I don't really care) law, the bear itself should be illegal, naming it is another thing.

Tokie

So Sharia considers a stuffed toy an idol? Will that mean the parents of the girl who bought the bear (as I understand it from the articles) will be getting in trouble too?

[ravdin]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Absolutely, but let's come at it from that angle, rather than the 40-lashes hyperbole. The situation is bad enough as it is - exaggeration is superfluous.

The hyperbole here is in detaining someone for giving a toy bear the wrong name. Or that blasphemy is punishable by 40 lashes, whether or not this teacher will have to face the punishment.

But let's not lose our heads, shall we? How might we reasonably discuss the legitimate complaints of these pious individuals? Over a jolly cup of tea?

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by ravdin

But let's not lose our heads, shall we? How might we reasonably discuss the legitimate complaints of these pious individuals? Over a jolly cup of tea?

Who said they were 'the legitimate complaints of these pious individuals'? I certainly didn't. I agree we should 'reasonably discuss' it, though. Milk, no sugar...

[BPSCG]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Absolutely, but let's come at it from that angle, rather than the 40-lashes hyperbole. The situation is bad enough as it is - exaggeration is superfluous.

So you'd be just fine if she only got one lash?

Or maybe a small fine?

Community service?

It's an abomination. Period. It's not "an abomination, but..."

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by BPSCG

So you'd be just fine if she only got one lash?

Or maybe a small fine?

Community service?

It's an abomination. Period. It's not "an abomination, but..."

No, it's absolutely outrageous that blasphemy is a crime at all, anywhere (including the UK, though I'm certainly not suggesting our blasphemy laws are comparable with Sudan's). As you rightly say, it's an abomination, even in its accurate, unexaggerated form. Let's not allow our emotions to get in the way of our scepticism, though. However bad this is, the teacher is very unlikely to be 'facing 40 lashes', so let's stick to the facts.

[richardm]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

the teacher is very unlikely to be 'facing 40 lashes', so let's stick to the facts.

The Sudanese courts are not above handing down such sentences for minor transgressions, though, e.g. giving women 30 lashes for wearing trousers... Although apparently they have been calming down a bit in recent years, and I'd be more worried about the mob that's gathered outside, helped along by the Attorney-General's spokesman:

Quote:

It quoted Mutusim Abdallah, who heads the attorney's office, as saying that she printed the name of the Prophet on the bear. "Then she wrote letters to student guardians telling them that they should receive a doll on which the name Muhammad is printed," he said. "However this event was met with wide condemnation by guardians of the students."

[666]

From this story.

Quote:

A British schoolteacher has been arrested in Sudan accused of insulting Islam's Prophet, after she allowed her pupils to name a teddy bear Muhammad.

Over-reaction or genuine grievance?

[fuelair]

Flipping primitive rectum breathers would be my guess.

[ravdin]

1. Report to the hospital for a CAT scan if you think this is a genuine grievance.
2. Beat you to it.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

My teddy's named Lord Shiva Buddha Christ the Prophet May Peace Be Upon Him Espuire.

Sudan is so off my list of countries to live.

But that's what she gets for bringing democracy to the classroom. [/jk]

So sad.

[Tokenconservative]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

You forgot to blame it on the liberals.

This isn't the libs fault of course, but you will not see any leftist org decrying this, just as here in the USofA NOW has been utterly silent on the suffering of women in "original" cultures (such as Sudan's) while shrieking ceaselessly about men looking at women and the non-existent "glass ceiling" etc., etc.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Originally Posted by Wildy

So Sharia considers a stuffed toy an idol? Will that mean the parents of the girl who bought the bear (as I understand it from the articles) will be getting in trouble too?

They should. However, only if the mother bought it. If she can provide 3 males who will testify that she did not, then of course she's off the hook.

Tokie

[Tokenconservative]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

No, it's absolutely outrageous that blasphemy is a crime at all, anywhere (including the UK, though I'm certainly not suggesting our blasphemy laws are comparable with Sudan's). As you rightly say, it's an abomination, even in its accurate, unexaggerated form. Let's not allow our emotions to get in the way of our scepticism, though. However bad this is, the teacher is very unlikely to be 'facing 40 lashes', so let's stick to the facts.

So...since the anti-sodomy laws (aimed at gays) in most of the states in the US were not enforced for 30 years or so before they were finally taken off the books most places, it was just fine that they were there...maybe....just in case some sodomite needed a little arse whuppin' at some point?

Tokie

[Beerina]

Originally Posted by ravdin

1. Report to the hospital for a CAT scan if you think this is a genuine grievance.

Real jail bars are hardly un-genuine.

Quote:

2. Beat you to it.

...bearly.

[ravdin]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

So...since the anti-sodomy laws (aimed at gays) in most of the states in the US were not enforced for 30 years or so before they were finally taken off the books most places, it was just fine that they were there...maybe....just in case some sodomite needed a little arse whuppin' at some point?

Tokie

I don't think that an argument based on cultural relativism has been advanced here. If it has, then Tokie is making a valid point. So I really hope it hasn't. I don't want to have to back him up.

[Tokenconservative]

Originally Posted by ravdin

I don't think that an argument based on cultural relativism has been advanced here. If it has, then Tokie is making a valid point. So I really hope it hasn't. I don't want to have to back him up.

So what you are saying is we need to look at this thing in a liberal-vacuum: it's perfectly fine for a truly and cruelly patriarchal society such as you find in most Muslim nations to say, mete out a punishment of 200 lashes to a 19 year old girl for the crime of being gangraped (this is being carried out in Saud, virtually as we speak) because after all, this is an "original" culture (i.e.: not Western) and that orgs. like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty Int'l have no business saying a thing about it. Certainly our own wymyn's rights orgs here in the US and in Europe, who have their hands full dealing with the horrors wymyn in the West face daily from the evil patriarchy that represses them through acts such as men offering a wolf whistle to a girl in a short skirt or maybe holding a door open for a lady... But hey, it's all relative, right? 200 lashes in Saud = wolf whistle in Manhatttan. Being buried up to your neck in an ants nest and having honey poured all over your head in Iran = a member of the evil patriarchy holding a door open for you in Chicago...

I'm reminded of a Darwin Award I read recently:

Synopsis: A couple of young college women get a flat tire in front of a frat house that caters to engineering types. They get out and do the usual hemming and hawing wymyn do about flat tires for a few minutes, giving a frat member who'd been enjoying a cold adult beverage on the front stoop time to wander down and ask the "ladies" if he'd like them to change that tire for them...it'd only take him a jiff!

They of course were College Wymyn and absolutely incensed by the very SUGGESTION that they could not handle it themselves. Our hero, not interested in a fight about feminism while he still had the rest of that six pack back in the cooler on the porch shrugged and headed back to his lawn chair.

He then watched as these College Wymyn proceeded to bollix the job up in if nothing else, amusing ways he'd never have thought of himself.

But then it got less amusing to the young stalwart, no feminist himself and rather fond of women, even College Wymyn, generally.

Alas, he was too late to stop them as one of them decided the best way to approach the problem after removing the flat was, for some reason, to stick both her legs, up to mid-thigh under the chasis on either side of the emergency tire she was hoping to attach.

Fortunately, the story goes, her legs remained attached after the car came down on them, but just barely.

Fortunately as well, our stalwart hero was quick on the draw with his cell and in getting the car up and off the College Wymyn before the ambulance arrived, no doubt saving her much further damage.

Tokie

[666]

Mods, feel free to merge this with the other thread.

[ImaginalDisc]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

So what you are saying is we need to look at this thing in a liberal-vacuum: it's perfectly fine for a truly and cruelly patriarchal society such as you find in most Muslim nations to say, mete out a punishment of 200 lashes to a 19 year old girl for the crime of being gangraped (this is being carried out in Saud, virtually as we speak) because after all, this is an "original" culture (i.e.: not Western) and that orgs. like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty Int'l have no business saying a thing about it.

Please name a single person on this entire forum who holds that opinion and cite where they said it, or admit that you made it up because you like the shape of it.

[Tanstaafl]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

So what you are saying is we need to look at this thing in a liberal-vacuum: it's perfectly fine for a truly and cruelly patriarchal society such as you find in most Muslim nations to say, mete out a punishment of 200 lashes to a 19 year old girl for the crime of being gangraped (this is being carried out in Saud, virtually as we speak) because after all, this is an "original" culture (i.e.: not Western) and that orgs. ...etc...

Tokie

Fortunately, this post put the world back on its proper axis. Up until this point, I was in the awkward position of agreeing with most of what Tokie said. I'm glad to see he's back to his usual random right-wing rantings to set things right again.

[sinclairmcevoy]

What about the students? THEY chose the name. THEY are Islamic. Wouldn't it make sense in a twisted way to punish them as well? Why shoot the messenger? Of course, I don't think anyone should be punished for this. It's ridiculous.

[ravdin]

Originally Posted by Tanstaafl

Fortunately, this post put the world back on its proper axis. Up until this point, I was in the awkward position of agreeing with most of what Tokie said. I'm glad to see he's back to his usual random right-wing rantings to set things right again.

Ditto.

Tokie, try waiting until someone actually makes a specious argument based on cultural relativism. Then bite.

I know it's fun to poke holes in PC silliness, but you're doing it in a vacuum here. It makes it impossible to take you seriously.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by sinclairmcevoy

What about the students? THEY chose the name. THEY are Islamic. Wouldn't it make sense in a twisted way to punish them as well? Why shoot the messenger? Of course, I don't think anyone should be punished for this. It's ridiculous.

I was listening to the headmaster of the school in an interview tonight and it appears that the parents and kids were all fine about this but there were issues that she'd broken the school's policies (I suppose along the lines we've seen of teachers at a Catholic school coming a cropper because of some non-Catholic stuff). He'd been trying to keep it within the school but it appears someone at the education department wasn't happy about this.

One teacher colleague was praising her for getting her young kids interested in voting and making it work The madness of religion rears its ugly head again.

[Ian Osborne]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

So...since the anti-sodomy laws (aimed at gays) in most of the states in the US were not enforced for 30 years or so before they were finally taken off the books most places, it was just fine that they were there...maybe....just in case some sodomite needed a little arse whuppin' at some point?

How on Earth do you infer this from my post, where I said blasphemy laws are outrageous?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Tanstaafl

Fortunately, this post put the world back on its proper axis. Up until this point, I was in the awkward position of agreeing with most of what Tokie said. I'm glad to see he's back to his usual random right-wing rantings to set things right again.

I know what you mean. I was actually agreeing with him for a while there.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

This isn't the libs fault of course, but you will not see any leftist org decrying this, just as here in the USofA NOW has been utterly silent on the suffering of women in "original" cultures (such as Sudan's) while shrieking ceaselessly about men looking at women and the non-existent "glass ceiling" etc., etc.

Tokie

Interesting Universe you live in Tokie. Does it have any intersection with the one the rest of us live in?

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

Yes, it's pretty sick, but to be fair, she might not have been formally charged and she certainly hasn't been convicted.

Saying she's 'facing 40 lashes' is a bit like saying, "Bill the British guy is facing three months in prison and a £2500 fine after he deliberately snapped Fred's pencil in half". That is indeed the maximum sentence he could theoretically face for Criminal Damage, but as his crime is at the other end of the scale, so will be the penalty.

From the story:

Quote:

Her colleagues said that they feared for her safety after reports that groups of young men had gathered outside the Khartoum police station where she was taken and were shouting death threats.

I suspect that the situation would be more similar after UK youth shouted death threats against Bill for breaking a pencil in half.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

I'm reminded of a Darwin Award I read recently:

Synopsis: A couple of young college women get a flat tire in front of a frat house that caters to engineering types. They get out and do the usual hemming and hawing wymyn do about flat tires for a few minutes, giving a frat member who'd been enjoying a cold adult beverage on the front stoop time to wander down and ask the "ladies" if he'd like them to change that tire for them...it'd only take him a jiff!

They of course were College Wymyn and absolutely incensed by the very SUGGESTION that they could not handle it themselves. Our hero, not interested in a fight about feminism while he still had the rest of that six pack back in the cooler on the porch shrugged and headed back to his lawn chair.

He then watched as these College Wymyn proceeded to bollix the job up in if nothing else, amusing ways he'd never have thought of himself.

But then it got less amusing to the young stalwart, no feminist himself and rather fond of women, even College Wymyn, generally.

Alas, he was too late to stop them as one of them decided the best way to approach the problem after removing the flat was, for some reason, to stick both her legs, up to mid-thigh under the chasis on either side of the emergency tire she was hoping to attach.

Fortunately, the story goes, her legs remained attached after the car came down on them, but just barely.

Fortunately as well, our stalwart hero was quick on the draw with his cell and in getting the car up and off the College Wymyn before the ambulance arrived, no doubt saving her much further damage.

Tokie

I was going to ask for a link to that story, but I know how serious your tantrums are when anyone asks for independent confirmation of information you provide. So instead, I'll just cite a Darwin Award showing that conservatives can be just as idiotic as liberals when changing tires. A man exercising his God-given right to use firearms in any manner whatsoever injured himself when he fired his shotgun at a stuck lug nut on an automobile wheel. Boy oh boy, those conservatives with guns are kooky. I don't have any evidence that a liberal tried to talk him out of the action, but I'll just pretend that it happened that way to make it a better story.

[Zep]

I suspect the whole bear/prophet's name thing is a complete and utter furphy - irrelevant to the point of what is really happening. I expect it will fade to oblivion, and the teacher will be freed with a "warning".

Because if you read the article carefully and a bit more dispassionately, it becomes VERY obvious that there are entirely other political issues afoot there that are much more of import. The shouting youths are like any mob of louts anywhere - they just like shouting threats and being violent (or they are a government "rent-a-crowd").

Perhaps it's also worth thinking on what is NOT being said: WHY is the Sudanese minister grossly misstating the "offence"? WHY have the British consulate not been heard from? What is the Sudanese government response to this "serious" issue? How come it was reported to the outside media at all? (Sudan practices severe censorship.) And so on.

Oh and Tokie - we just elected a left-wing government in a huge landslide. Go chew on that.

[Ian Osborne]

[fuelair]

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

http://www.taz.de/blogs/wp-inst/wp-c...20Mohammed.jpg

Copied that puppy to my pen drive!! In case it vanishes.

[godless dave]

This is ridiculous, even if you are a Muslim.

Mohammed is, by far, the most common name for males in Muslim cultures.

Mohammed, as the Koran takes great pains to point out, was not divine and is not to be worshipped, so anything involving his name cannot be "blasphemy".