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Tags gillian gibbons , Muhammed depictions , Sudan incidents

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Old 27th November 2007, 04:35 AM   #41
gtc
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Originally Posted by Zep View Post
I suspect the whole bear/prophet's name thing is a complete and utter furphy - irrelevant to the point of what is really happening. I expect it will fade to oblivion, and the teacher will be freed with a "warning".

Because if you read the article carefully and a bit more dispassionately, it becomes VERY obvious that there are entirely other political issues afoot there that are much more of import. The shouting youths are like any mob of louts anywhere - they just like shouting threats and being violent (or they are a government "rent-a-crowd").

Perhaps it's also worth thinking on what is NOT being said: WHY is the Sudanese minister grossly misstating the "offence"? WHY have the British consulate not been heard from? What is the Sudanese government response to this "serious" issue? How come it was reported to the outside media at all? (Sudan practices severe censorship.) And so on.

Oh and Tokie - we just elected a left-wing government in a huge landslide. Go chew on that.
I have read the BBC article, but I don't see what the other political issues are. What do you think is happening?
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Old 27th November 2007, 08:50 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by gtc View Post
I have read the BBC article, but I don't see what the other political issues are. What do you think is happening?
From the article:

Quote:
Bishop Ezekiel Kondo, chairman of the school council, told The Times that the school was in dispute with authorities over taxes, and suggested that Ms Gibbons, who arrived in Khartoum in August, may have been caught up in that. "The thing may be very simple but there are people who are trying to make it bigger. It's a kind of blackmail," he said.
Other issues might include letting Christians and Muslims attend the same school and letting European women teach children of Sudanese citizens. I'm not saying there is measurable evidence for either of those theories, but the idea that it is only about naming a teddy bear Muhammed is difficult to comprehend.
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Old 27th November 2007, 11:20 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
careful, someone might try to set fire to JREF....
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Old 27th November 2007, 11:25 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
From the article:



Other issues might include letting Christians and Muslims attend the same school and letting European women teach children of Sudanese citizens. I'm not saying there is measurable evidence for either of those theories, but the idea that it is only about naming a teddy bear Muhammed is difficult to comprehend.
Yes, insanity is difficult to comprehend. If there truly are legimate issues, they might find more support if they were to come forth with those issues. I'm wondering why none of the 20 children who voted for the name realized that they shouldn't be naming a toy Muhammed. Perhaps their indoctrination methods are slipping . . .
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Old 27th November 2007, 01:30 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
I'm reminded of a Darwin Award I read recently:

<snip>

Fortunately, the story goes, her legs remained attached after the car came down on them, but just barely.

Fortunately as well, our stalwart hero was quick on the draw with his cell and in getting the car up and off the College Wymyn before the ambulance arrived, no doubt saving her much further damage.
You just make up stuff as you go along don't you? The Darwin Awards are named for people who do stupid things and thus remove themselves from the gene pool by DYING. Since the woman didn't die, this is not a Darwin Award winner.
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Old 27th November 2007, 02:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by supercorgi View Post
You just make up stuff as you go along don't you? The Darwin Awards are named for people who do stupid things and thus remove themselves from the gene pool by DYING. Since the woman didn't die, this is not a Darwin Award winner.
They do have runners up and near misses as well. I haven't seen Tokie's there, though.
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Old 27th November 2007, 03:36 PM   #47
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They're now claiming this is insulting because culturally, they don't have teddy bears and so are used to the bear as a ferocious thing which eats people. Or some crap like that.
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Old 28th November 2007, 08:46 AM   #48
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Well, apparently she's now been charged with insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs. Aye, well, Cornwall again for me next year I think.

Edit: And this kid strikes me as brave, under the circumstances:

Quote:
A Sudanese pupil of a British woman arrested on blasphemy allegations has said it was his idea to name a teddy bear Muhammad ... one boy said: "The teacher asked me what I wanted to call the teddy. I said Muhammad. I named it after my name."
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Old 28th November 2007, 08:50 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by richardm View Post
Well, apparently she's now been charged with insulting religion, inciting hatred and showing contempt for religious beliefs. Aye, well, Cornwall again for me next year I think.

Edit: And this kid strikes me as brave, under the circumstances:
Well, if there's one positive thing to come out of this, it's that British Muslims are falling over themselves to distance themselves from this sort of extremism. That can only be a good thing. The more ridiculous the interpretation of Islam, the more questions moderate Muslims will start asking.

There's a really cynical part of me that wants to say "if you go and work in a strict Muslim country, learn the rules" but that isn't very helpful at this stage.

Last edited by tkingdoll; 28th November 2007 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 28th November 2007, 09:36 AM   #50
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I'm hoping that the kids will carry some good lessons from this insanity.
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Old 28th November 2007, 09:56 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
There's a really cynical part of me that wants to say "if you go and work in a strict Muslim country, learn the rules" but that isn't very helpful at this stage.
Good advice in principle but not so useful when the "rules" are apparently open to interpretation by religious zealots.
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Old 28th November 2007, 10:07 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
This is ridiculous, even if you are a Muslim.

Mohammed is, by far, the most common name for males in Muslim cultures.

Mohammed, as the Koran takes great pains to point out, was not divine and is not to be worshipped, so anything involving his name cannot be "blasphemy".
Yep, else a certain superb professional boxer might have been, by taking on the name he did from Cassius Clay, had a fatwa declared against him.

As Zep pointed out, this is politics.

DR
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Old 28th November 2007, 10:21 AM   #53
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This is all a kind of passive terrorism, the goal being that as more incidents like this occur, non-Muslims everywhere will become hesitant about doing or saying anything might offend Islam. With any luck, it will backfire on them. If a western country arrested a muslim for allegedly offending some Western ideal, they would no doubt consider it an act of aggression. I really hope the British gov't stands up for this woman. If she ends up being publicly flogged, the real atrocity would be to let that go unanswered.
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Old 28th November 2007, 10:24 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
This isn't the libs fault of course, but you will not see any leftist org decrying this, just as here in the USofA NOW has been utterly silent on the suffering of women in "original" cultures (such as Sudan's) while shrieking ceaselessly about men looking at women and the non-existent "glass ceiling" etc., etc.

Tokie
I submit you have not been to the NOW site, and have not read any of the articles I was able to pull up with simple search terms, such as "Islam" and "Sharia."

I therefore dismiss your allegation ["NOW has been utterly silent on the suffering of women in "original" cultures (such as Sudan's)"] as being without a factual basis, due to absence of research.

And no, I don't have a LIIIINNNNKK!
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Old 28th November 2007, 11:22 AM   #55
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Teddy takes offence!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7117430.stm

News today says she is due before a judge tomorrow.Get your cartoons ready.
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Old 28th November 2007, 11:48 AM   #56
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Don't Name your Teddy Mohammed

Not to be outdone by Saudi Arabia's applying the lash to its gangrape victims the Sudan has now charged a British teacher who could suffer a year in jail plus 40 lashes for her terrible crime. This is what you get folks when you want to educate children by going overseas to help teach them. Clearly this will end up "costing" children everywhere in Islam and it is they who always suffer in the end.

Quote:
KHARTOUM, Sudan (CNN) -- A British teacher arrested in Sudan after allowing her class to name a teddy bear "Mohammed" has been charged by authorities with offending religion, British officials say.

Gillian Gibbons, 54, is being held by police in the capital Khartoum after she asked her class of seven-year-olds to come up with a name for the toy as part of a school project, Robert Boulos, the head of Unity High School told CNN.

It is expected that she will appear in court Thursday, Sudan state media reported.

A British Foreign Office spokeswoman said Gibbons had been charged under Article 125 of Sudan's constitution, the law relating to insulting religion and inciting hatred.

The spokeswoman said the Sudanese ambassador had been summoned to the offices of the British Foreign Secretary David Miliband to discuss the case. Gibbons was arrested under the country's Islamic Sharia law after parents of some of her students complained to police. Hear about the charges against Gibbons »

Under country's law, the offense is punishable with 40 lashes, a jail term of up to a year or a fine.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa...ef=mpstoryview
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Old 28th November 2007, 11:54 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
I submit you have not been to the NOW site, and have not read any of the articles I was able to pull up with simple search terms, such as "Islam" and "Sharia."

I therefore dismiss your allegation ["NOW has been utterly silent on the suffering of women in "original" cultures (such as Sudan's)"] as being without a factual basis, due to absence of research.

And no, I don't have a LIIIINNNNKK!
Hey tokie! LIIIIIIINKKKKK!

NOW is not silent on Sudan.
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Last edited by bruto; 28th November 2007 at 11:55 AM. Reason: FORGOT THE LINK!
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Old 28th November 2007, 11:56 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Hey tokie! LIIIIIIINKKKKK!

NOW is not silent on Sudan.
But, why should Tokie "click on a link from a lib?"

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Old 28th November 2007, 12:45 PM   #59
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Hope the bear ends up on EBay, is purchased, defecated upon, soaked in gas, and burned; whilst it all being taped and then posted to Youtube. Then send all the kids new teddy bears.

Perhaps the Rational Response Squad should start up a second Blasphemy Challenge; this time for Mohammed.
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Old 28th November 2007, 01:00 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Hope the bear ends up on EBay, is purchased, defecated upon, soaked in gas, and burned; whilst it all being taped and then posted to Youtube. Then send all the kids new teddy bears...
How about Teddy Ruxpin dolls that say, "I keeel you!!"?
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Old 28th November 2007, 01:21 PM   #61
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Quote:
OFFICIAL:
You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of uttering the name of our Lord, and so, as a blasphemer,...
CROWD:
Ooooh!
OFFICIAL:
...you are to be stoned to death.
CROWD:
Ahh!
MATTHIAS:
Look. I-- I'd had a lovely supper, and all I said to my wife was, 'That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.'
CROWD:
Oooooh!
OFFICIAL:
Blasphemy!
http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-04.htm
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Old 28th November 2007, 01:38 PM   #62
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I've only now just learned of the "teddy bear fiasco". Absolutely unbelievable! Whatever hope I've might of had for the human race has just been ratcheted down a few notches ...
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Old 28th November 2007, 02:20 PM   #63
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Ah so here is thread! I did look before making mine...

The teacher is up before the judge in the morning.Let's hope sense is prevalent.
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Old 28th November 2007, 03:08 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
There's a really cynical part of me that wants to say "if you go and work in a strict Muslim country, learn the rules" but that isn't very helpful at this stage.
Well I worked in Saudi Arabia for four years and had a comprehensive induction which included "Cultural sensitivity training".

No booze - "Check, knew that."
No women - "The wife knew that one."
Stay indoors at prayer times - "Sure, nothing open anyway."
Dress modestly - "Yup - sunburn sucks."
Don't eat outdoors during Ramadan - "Fine"
No Christmas decorations visible to Saudi citizens - "I suppose."
Be careful what name you give your Teddy Bear - "Say what?"

I do recall somebody getting into trouble for juggling with oranges once though (They are gifts from Allah and so must not be respected). In four years I was arrested only once - birdwatching without due care and attention.
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Old 28th November 2007, 05:00 PM   #65
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The real danger is that the teddy bear may develop a new religion, and sweep across the Middle East and Africa converting people to the New Plush Faith. "There is no god but Pooh Bear, and Muhammed Bear is his prophet!" I wonder if the Care Bears would become angels, saints, or demons of the new religion? Would they be cast down as a pantheon of devils, or would they syncretize into the new Fluffy Monotheism?
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Old 28th November 2007, 05:37 PM   #66
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeq2...eature=related

Maybe they should have her defence counsel show this.



Or maybe not.
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Old 28th November 2007, 05:53 PM   #67
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Idol or not, there are Teddy Bears throughout the Islam....
Attached Images
File Type: jpg teddy1.jpg (2.3 KB, 175 views)
File Type: jpg teddy2arab.jpg (12.4 KB, 176 views)
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Old 28th November 2007, 06:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNeq2...eature=relatedMaybe they should have her defence counsel show this.
Remember the ruckus nearly thirty years ago when they released "Life of Brian"? Imagine the uproar that movie would create if it was released today in our hypersensitive politically correct society ...
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Old 28th November 2007, 06:37 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Remember the ruckus nearly thirty years ago when they released "Life of Brian"? Imagine the uproar that movie would create if it was released today in our hypersensitive politically correct society ...
What would you call Jerry Springer the Musical then? OK, not a movie, but the same principle. I don't think society is hypersensitive and politically correct, I think politicians and bureaucrats are.

(Opera? Musical? Whatever it is)

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Old 28th November 2007, 07:18 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
Hope the bear ends up on EBay, is purchased, defecated upon, soaked in gas, and burned; whilst it all being taped and then posted to Youtube. Then send all the kids new teddy bears.
This just makes me want to make a YouTube video...

No, I'm really thinking about it. Certainly not to the extreme as mentioned above, but I have a few ideas. In fact, it would be rather tame unless misinterpreted.

Sure it could be considered freedom of speech, but what if it incites riots and retaliation in other parts of the world?
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Old 28th November 2007, 10:43 PM   #71
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According to a CTV News report aired earlier tonight (online written version here; the link to the report aired is on the right side of that page), a letter was sent to the parents mentioning the name the class had selected for the bear, and for two months there were no problems.

If correct, it smacks to me of the Sudanese government getting involved behind the scenes to try and generate a controversy.
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Old 29th November 2007, 12:04 AM   #72
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Gee. That'll learn her I guess.
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Old 29th November 2007, 02:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
What would you call Jerry Springer the Musical then? OK, not a movie, but the same principle. I don't think society is hypersensitive and politically correct, I think politicians and bureaucrats are.

(Opera? Musical? Whatever it is)
Well it did result in the biggest ever single protest against a TV programme in the UK, at least one charity even refused a donation because of pressure from one of the Christian protest groups.

Obviously nothing compared to the teddy bear stupidity but clearly showing that parts of UK society are very hypersensitive.
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Old 29th November 2007, 03:50 AM   #74
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There was also a considerable amount of hoo-ha over a play set in a Sikh temple. Still not quite as brainless as the reaction we're seeing in the Sudan though. Well, not as state-sanctioned anyway.

I see the teacher is in court as I type, amid "chaotic scenes" and with riot police at the entrances to the building keeping everyone else out.

Initially she wasn't allowed access to her legal team, but they've sorted that out now. Hearing is due to start at 1100 GMT.
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Rimmer: Look at her! Magnificent woman! Very prim, very proper, almost austere. Some people took her for cold, thought she was aloof. Not a bit of it. She just despised fools. Quite tragic, really, because otherwise I think we'd have got on famously.

Last edited by richardm; 29th November 2007 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 29th November 2007, 04:16 AM   #75
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It is heartening to see that Sudan has changed so much since a week last Thursday. Glad to see that they got all those pesky human rights issues sorted out and no longer have to rely on external support to keep going and they can afford to spend the resources on dealing with this absolute terrible attempt to undermine this stable and peaceful country by inciting the worse kind of hatred - teddyhate. My hat goes off to them for at long last getting their priorities sorted out!
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Old 29th November 2007, 06:46 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
You forgot to blame it on the liberals.
It manifests itself in the West because of libs. You don't have many conservatives nodding sagely and agreeing (Canada, Holland, Denmark) that it would indeed be a good idea if Muslims in their countries were to face a religious law, not the constitutional laws of the democracies in which they live.

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Old 29th November 2007, 06:49 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by mummymonkey View Post
Well I worked in Saudi Arabia for four years and had a comprehensive induction which included "Cultural sensitivity training".

No booze - "Check, knew that."
No women - "The wife knew that one."
Stay indoors at prayer times - "Sure, nothing open anyway."
Dress modestly - "Yup - sunburn sucks."
Don't eat outdoors during Ramadan - "Fine"
No Christmas decorations visible to Saudi citizens - "I suppose."
Be careful what name you give your Teddy Bear - "Say what?"

I do recall somebody getting into trouble for juggling with oranges once though (They are gifts from Allah and so must not be respected). In four years I was arrested only once - birdwatching without due care and attention.
Curious: does the "dress modestly" thing apply to all, or just chattel...er, I mean women?

I visited Orlando pre-911, and had to laugh at all the Muslims there....the men were dressed like me: short pants, sport shirt or t, tennies...the women were in those enormous cocoons. In 220% humidity.

Seems a bit...contradictory.

Anyway, in Saud: I ride a bike and of course, I have to wear those tiny little tight shorts and tight shirts...no-no?

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Old 29th November 2007, 07:57 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
Anyway, in Saud: I ride a bike and of course, I have to wear those tiny little tight shorts and tight shirts...no-no?

Several years ago I was told off for wearing shorts when playing football with kids in a small Palestinian villiage in the West Bank. It was apparently indiscreet as the villiage womenfolk might be watching. Kind'a flattering.
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Old 29th November 2007, 08:37 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is heartening to see that Sudan has changed so much since a week last Thursday. Glad to see that they got all those pesky human rights issues sorted out and no longer have to rely on external support to keep going and they can afford to spend the resources on dealing with this absolute terrible attempt to undermine this stable and peaceful country by inciting the worse kind of hatred - teddyhate. My hat goes off to them for at long last getting their priorities sorted out!
Spot on, Darat, and consistent with Corsair115 pointing out that for two months, it was not an issue.

Politics, such a lovely calling. Maybe I'll sign on. It would allow me to become a right prick, professionally, and get paid for it. All I need is to find the right project, accept the right level of bribes (seven figures) and then retire to a small cottage in the country after the obligatory "I am retiring from public life to spend more time with my family" speech, given at a press conference just after the outrage hits over the pork barrel project I help get approved.

Don't see a downside.

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Old 29th November 2007, 09:06 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well it did result in the biggest ever single protest against a TV programme in the UK, at least one charity even refused a donation because of pressure from one of the Christian protest groups.

Obviously nothing compared to the teddy bear stupidity but clearly showing that parts of UK society are very hypersensitive.
It also attracted an enormous amount of praise and support. And I for one welcome that sort of protest, because it shows up for the rest of the country just how quick the religous are to place restrictions on everybody. I think the dialogue it creates is great.

For example, a Christian is now suing the musical for blasphemy. That's great, because most of the country probably didn't realise that blasphemy is against the law. And the guy is saying "you wouldn't be get away with blasphemy against Islam, why should you get away with it against Christianity? It's even against the law, let's have some justice". And people will think, 'uh, but he's right. If we're going to roundly mock one god, we should be able to roundly mock them all, or none at all. And I don't like the none at all option, because that means no Jerry Springer Musical. And why is Christian blasphemy against the law anyway? About time that was repealed', and so on.

The more stupid and narrow-minded and dictating the religious become, the more difficult it is to justify giving anyone special treatment on the basis of their belief, or more importantly, on the basis of their quickness to take offense. Do it for one and you have to do it for all, and that's an unworkable society right there.
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