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Tags gillian gibbons , Muhammed depictions , Sudan incidents

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Old 29th November 2007, 11:35 AM   #81
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15 days in a Sudanese clink. Lovely.
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Old 29th November 2007, 11:37 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
Curious: does the "dress modestly" thing apply to all, or just chattel...er, I mean women?
Both sexes. What is modest for a man may however not be modest enough for a woman.
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Old 29th November 2007, 12:01 PM   #83
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I'm now straining not to have a knee jerk reaction to her being imprisoned and then deported however I'm struggling.

Bloody bunch of idiots - no wonder your country is in the state it is if this is the level of rationality in your society.
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Old 29th November 2007, 01:18 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
No, it's absolutely outrageous that blasphemy is a crime at all, anywhere (including the UK, though I'm certainly not suggesting our blasphemy laws are comparable with Sudan's). As you rightly say, it's an abomination, even in its accurate, unexaggerated form. Let's not allow our emotions to get in the way of our scepticism, though. However bad this is, the teacher is very unlikely to be 'facing 40 lashes', so let's stick to the facts.
Why do you say it's unlikely for the teacher to get 40 lashes? I really hope she doesn't, but it doesn't seem unlikely at all.

This is Sudan. This is the same country where the government is not-so-secretly supporting ethnic cleansing private militias. Next to that, whipping an innocent elderly woman is nothing.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...041600130.html
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Old 29th November 2007, 01:36 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by slingblade View Post
I submit you have not been to the NOW site, and have not read any of the articles I was able to pull up with simple search terms, such as "Islam" and "Sharia."

I therefore dismiss your allegation ["NOW has been utterly silent on the suffering of women in "original" cultures (such as Sudan's)"] as being without a factual basis, due to absence of research.

And no, I don't have a LIIIINNNNKK!
I got a link:

http://www.now.org/cgi-bin/search.cg...md=Please+wait...

My search only turned up three articles. One was the annual report from 2004 in which I was only able to find the mention in regards to womens rights in Afghanistan, the other two were from 2005 and concerned about the rights of women in the Iraqi constitution.

That's not utterly silent, but it's pretty close.
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Old 29th November 2007, 02:08 PM   #86
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Statement from the Muslim Council of Britain:

Quote:
MCB Appalled At Sudanese Decision to Charge Gillian Gibbons

The Muslim Council of Britain is appalled at the decision of the Sudanese authorities to charge the British schoolteacher, Gillian Gibbons, for allegedly 'insulting religion'.

"This is a disgraceful decision and defies common sense. There was clearly no intention on the part of the teacher to deliberately insult the Islamic faith. The children in Ms Gibbons' class and their parents have all testified as to her innocence in this matter. We call upon the Sudanese President, Umar al-Bashir, to intervene in this case without delay to ensure that Ms Gibbons is freed from this quite shameful ordeal," said Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, Secretary-General of the Muslim Council of Britain.
Well said, MCB.

The Foreign Secretary, however, is merely 'disappointed'.

The incident took place in September, so why has she only just been arrested? Plainly the whole thing is political:
Quote:
(From BBC News site)
Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.
The cover story (that 'several parents' complained to the police, who were then bound to investigate) is ridiculous. The clerics are demonstrating (successfully, it would seem) that the government and the courts are their puppets. Whether the incident was deliberately manufactured for this purpose, or merely appropriated, is not clear. My guess is that the Sudanese government is hoping that the UK (and the West in general) will see the sentence as a lenient compromise.

They need to be swiftly disabused of that notion.
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Old 29th November 2007, 02:22 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by mummymonkey View Post
15 days in a Sudanese clink. Lovely.
An appropriate response to this would be to bomb the presidential palace in Khartoum.

Too bad you Brits don't have a George Bush or a Dick Cheney available to get that sorted out, eh?

DR


(Please note a modest amount of sarcasm in the post.)

ETA:

(From BBC News site, courtesy of Lucky, thanks. )
Quote:
Sudan's top clerics have called for the full measure of the law to be used against Mrs Gibbons and labelled her actions part of a Western plot against Islam.
I suggest the UK demonstrate to these wankers what a Western plot against Islam might look like. A squadron of Tornado jets, bombs on about a dozen mosques in Khartoum.

Rock the Casbah.

Then they will have room to piss and moan. Teach them the meaning of the term "against Islam."
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Old 29th November 2007, 03:39 PM   #88
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This is at least some slightly more positive news about all this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119391.stm
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Old 29th November 2007, 03:50 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This is at least some slightly more positive news about all this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119391.stm
Originally Posted by your link
The media in Sudan and the Middle-East have largely ignored the case.
Nope.

Not positive.

You have been in Whoville too long, Darat. Whoville means bloody eff all in the Sudan.

DR
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Old 29th November 2007, 04:33 PM   #90
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I think they pinched the idea form Israel.They recently had TeddyHate of their own with a character on a TV show bein gdone for inciting kids to be terrorists or something.Anyway the character was killed by PLO bunnies or something.

We should respond by kicking out some Sudanesse from UK or giving them 40 lashes!
So she gets deported as well?! Wow..wild horses would have to stop me leaving once my time was up in clink.

I say Nuke em.
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Old 29th November 2007, 04:33 PM   #91
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So, Darat, Teek, has anyone on your side of the pond looked up how much foreign aid y'all give to Sudan these days? I'll bet it's too much.
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Old 29th November 2007, 04:52 PM   #92
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So what is happening to the bear? Probably getting away with crucifixion?
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Old 29th November 2007, 05:09 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
So, Darat, Teek, has anyone on your side of the pond looked up how much foreign aid y'all give to Sudan these days? I'll bet it's too much.
Yes, I thought that. Foreign aid with strings attached is a dangerous concept, but in this case, I'd be happy to withdraw all aid to Sudan pending that woman's immediate release.
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Old 30th November 2007, 12:51 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
Nope.

Not positive.

You have been in Whoville too long, Darat. Whoville means bloody eff all in the Sudan.

DR
Couldn't disagree more with your opinion that Sudanese people in Sudan complaining and protesting against this is not positive. How do you think the situation will ever improve if Sudanese people don't start to complain and protest about this type of stupidity?
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Old 30th November 2007, 12:53 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
So, Darat, Teek, has anyone on your side of the pond looked up how much foreign aid y'all give to Sudan these days? I'll bet it's too much.
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Yes, I thought that. Foreign aid with strings attached is a dangerous concept, but in this case, I'd be happy to withdraw all aid to Sudan pending that woman's immediate release.
It depends what the aid is - if it is direct humanitarian aid I wouldn't want it to stop because of this. (For all this is stupid, for all it is atrocious it is not as atrocious as not helping people in dire need.)
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Old 30th November 2007, 02:16 AM   #96
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In order not to offend you with links, I will adopt the assertion style you seem to prefer.

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
It manifests itself in the West because of libs.
No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
You don't have many conservatives nodding sagely and agreeing that it would indeed be a good idea if Muslims in their countries were to face a religious law, not the constitutional laws of the democracies in which they live.

Tokie
Yes you do. Especially the religious conservatives. They do it all the time.
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Old 30th November 2007, 02:37 AM   #97
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I'm a bit appalled by all the outrage here.

Of course, the sentence is ridiculous and nonsensical.

It's a country where women can get punished (more severely) for being raped. She should have known that the name muhamed could have given her trouble, of course it shouldn't have, but she could have known.

The fact that people here are so much more outraged over this, compared to the raped women getting whipped, is because she's one of us.

The outrage is overly selective, biassed, racistic and intolerant (though admittedly not on par with the intolerance of the Sudan court).

..

Meanwhile I've decided to call my reproductive organ: "The bearded prophet Muhamed", in protest to ALL that is wrong in countries where Islam reigns. Also I will refer to my rectum as: "Jesus Christ our lord and saviour", mainly to remind myself Islam is not alone in it's intolerance.
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Old 30th November 2007, 02:46 AM   #98
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There is another thread about the Saudi lady.

I don't think people here are more outraged about the teddy bear lady.
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Old 30th November 2007, 03:04 AM   #99
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I for one am able to be outraged about more than one thing at a time.
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Old 30th November 2007, 04:39 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
It's a country where women can get punished (more severely) for being raped. She should have known that the name muhamed could have given her trouble, of course it shouldn't have, but she could have known.
Rubbish. How on earth could she have known that naming a soft toy Mohammed, a common boy's name and chosen by the children themselves, would land her 15 days in a Sudanese jail? What utter tosh.
It's as if she'd been hauled up in front of the beak for stepping on the cracks in the pavement.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:05 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Couldn't disagree more with your opinion that Sudanese people in Sudan complaining and protesting against this is not positive. How do you think the situation will ever improve if Sudanese people don't start to complain and protest about this type of stupidity?
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It depends what the aid is - if it is direct humanitarian aid I wouldn't want it to stop because of this. (For all this is stupid, for all it is atrocious it is not as atrocious as not helping people in dire need.)
Then maybe cutting off aid is the perfect thing to do. If the Sudanese people are starting to complain and protest about this type of stupidity, imagine what their reaction might be if they were to find out that those sacks of flour with the Union Jack on them have stopped coming because of their stupid government's stupid adherence to stupid sha'aria.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:15 AM   #102
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Protesters in Khartoum are marching the streets complaining her sentence is too lenient,and calling for her to be shot!!

Lovely people.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:16 AM   #103
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Yep - just heard about that - absolutely beyond crazy.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:22 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by BPSCG View Post
Then maybe cutting off aid is the perfect thing to do. If the Sudanese people are starting to complain and protest about this type of stupidity, imagine what their reaction might be if they were to find out that those sacks of flour with the Union Jack on them have stopped coming because of their stupid government's stupid adherence to stupid sha'aria.
It might be but if the choice is about letting someone die and providing a sack of grain even to people in a country so stupid as to have carried out this miscarriage of any kind of justice I'm still for the grain to be sent.

What I think should be done is that the UK should cut off all diplomatic and official ties with Sudan, expel their diplomatic mission and refuse visas or the extension of any existing visa's to Sudanese people, not allow Sudanese officials to have access to UK based financial services and so on (once we have the woman safe of course). Whilst some of those are nothing more than symbolic measures they would send a message that whilst you can do what you like in your country it does have consequences.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:30 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by mummymonkey View Post
Rubbish. How on earth could she have known that naming a soft toy Mohammed, a common boy's name and chosen by the children themselves, would land her 15 days in a Sudanese jail? What utter tosh.
It's as if she'd been hauled up in front of the beak for stepping on the cracks in the pavement.
You are absolutely correct, this is a completely isolated incident within the Islamic world.

There have been no prior indications that there are Muslims that overreact to this kind of thing.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:32 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It might be but if the choice is about letting someone die and providing a sack of grain even to people in a country so stupid as to have carried out this miscarriage of any kind of justice I'm still for the grain to be sent.

What I think should be done is that the UK should cut off all diplomatic and official ties with Sudan, expel their diplomatic mission and refuse visas or the extension of any existing visa's to Sudanese people, not allow Sudanese officials to have access to UK based financial services and so on (once we have the woman safe of course). Whilst some of those are nothing more than symbolic measures they would send a message that whilst you can do what you like in your country it does have consequences.
Agreed. Countries have a choice. The can listen and talk to each other or to a magic sky fairy.

If they are not going to listen to reason there is little point in dialogue. Aid to individuals can continue but at a national level we should break off diplomatic relations.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:42 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
If they are not going to listen to reason there is little point in dialogue. Aid to individuals can continue but at a national level we should break off diplomatic relations.
Which I agree with emotionally, but there is a concern that the withdrawl of aid would be viewed as part of the alleged Western plot against Islam by those people who wish to do so. Given that the Sudanese government seems to hold that view, it may may life very difficult for foreign nationals providing humanitarian support.

But I can't think of anything better so I suppose I should just shut up
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:49 AM   #108
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If I was the judge, I'd have invoked the Law of Exact Revenge, a staple of the Old Testament, to which the Muslims also subscribe. I'd have done to that woman exactly what she'd done to my prophet. I'd have instructed the court to go out and purchase a teddy bear, which I would then name after her. The bear, wearing a t-shirt with the slogan 'My name is Gillian Gibbons', would be displayed in a prominent place for a year.

This ruling would satisfy (or at least shut up) everyone concerned. The moderates would be happy with the ruling, which they wouldn't consider too harsh, and the hard-liners wouldn't dare argue it was too lenient as complaining the sentence was a trivial non-punishment would also imply her actions were a trivial non-crime.

Not sure whether all this would be legally possible, of course, but wouldn't it be funny if it happened?
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:51 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
You are absolutely correct, this is a completely isolated incident within the Islamic world.

There have been no prior indications that there are Muslims that overreact to this kind of thing.
I'm unaware of any other fluffy toy offences in The Sudan of late. Care to enlighten me?
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:54 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
You are absolutely correct, this is a completely isolated incident within the Islamic world.

There have been no prior indications that there are Muslims that overreact to this kind of thing.
Of course not, not in of all places, the Sudan ...well, maybe there are. Here's the latest wrap-up on the Darfur crisis:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3496731.stm

Only an estimated mere ("no fewer than:")200,000 prematurely deceased black Africans killed by Islamic militias.

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Old 30th November 2007, 05:56 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by mummymonkey View Post
I'm unaware of any other fluffy toy offences in The Sudan of late. Care to enlighten me?
I believe they once stoned a Cabbage Patch Doll for showing her ankles in public.
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:56 AM   #112
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The MCB say the prosecution is bad because there was no intention to insult islam. Does that imply that they would support this sort of action if she had deliberately done it?

On the radio this morning they were speaking to muslims off the street (in London I think). A fair few of them were saying that some sort of punishment was deserved but the sentence was a bit harsh. WTF?!
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Old 30th November 2007, 05:57 AM   #113
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Well Cabbage patch dolls were an affront



....- to anyone with intelligence.
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Old 30th November 2007, 06:00 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by SteveGrenard View Post
Of course not, not in of all places, the Sudan ...well, maybe there are. Here's the latest wrap-up on the Darfur crisis:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3496731.stm

Only an estimated mere 200,000 prematurely deceased black Africans killed by Islamic militias.
That doesn't count according to Mummymonkey, there would have to have been a stuffy toy related incident for her to be able to conclude that some people in Sudan appoint ridiculous significance to the name Mohammed.

Heck, I live in Europe and I knew (before all this crap got in the news) how touchy some Muslims are about anything called Mohammed.

I fully choose to ignore that since I think I should be able to critisize all religions, but because I do, I also try to avoid visiting Islamic nations.

If I were to visit the US I would also be more careful with remarks I make about Jesus and God than I am back here in the Netherlands.
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Old 30th November 2007, 06:10 AM   #115
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I really think i'll rally up a mob of Danes and go singing through the streets, burning Sudanese flags until i reach their embassy, which i will burn down too ....

WAIT!! .... That sounded awfully familliar
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Old 30th November 2007, 06:14 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
She should have known that the name muhamed could have given her trouble, of course it shouldn't have, but she could have known.
She didn't name the bear. Her class named the bear. There was no intended offense, and in fact it was named after one of her class.

I believe it was the fact she was teaching her class about democracy and voting (it's how they chose the name) that has caused some of the problem, as well as her being caught in the middle of an existing political situation.

Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
The fact that people here are so much more outraged over this, compared to the raped women getting whipped, is because she's one of us.
I resent that implication, and am capable of being just as outraged by many things at once.
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Old 30th November 2007, 06:14 AM   #117
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If god is love, why is it his most enthusiastic followers are almost invariably complete [rule 8]s?

It's time to withdraw all aid from Sudan, as well as ending all diplomatic contact.
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Old 30th November 2007, 06:16 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
I believe it was the fact she was teaching her class about democracy and voting (it's how they chose the name) that has caused some of the problem, as well as her being caught in the middle of an existing political situation.
The fact that this crap only blew up two months after the incident would suggest you're right.
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Old 30th November 2007, 06:30 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
I resent that implication, and am capable of being just as outraged by many things at once.
I shouldn't have called it a fact and I'm sure that while it isn't true for everyone, there are some for which it's defenitally a factor.
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Old 30th November 2007, 06:40 AM   #120
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http://www.att.net/s/editorial.dll?p...&rg=blsadstrgt

Quote:
Calls in Sudan for Execution of Briton
Published: 11/30/07, 8:25 AM EDT
By MOHAMED OSMAN
KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gillian Gibbons, the teacher who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

They massed in central Martyrs Square, outside the presidential palace, where hundreds of riot police were deployed, although they did not try to stop the rally.

"Shame, shame on the U.K.," protesters chanted.

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

The women's prison where Gibbons is being held is far from the site. Unity High School, which is closer by in central Khartoum, is under heavy security protection.

The protest arose despite vows by Sudanese security officials the day before, during Gibbons' trial, that threatened demonstrations after Friday prayers would not take place. Some of the protesters carried green banners with the name of the Society for Support of the Prophet Muhammad, a previously unknown group.

Many protesters carried clubs, knives and axes - but not automatic weapons, which some have brandished at past government-condoned demonstrations. That suggested Friday's rally was not organized by the government.

A Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons during one sermon, saying she intentionally insulted Islam. He did not call for protests, however.

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan. But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion," the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well-known hard-liner, told worshippers.

"This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.

...
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