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Tags gillian gibbons , Muhammed depictions , Sudan incidents

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Old 30th November 2007, 07:03 AM   #121
BPSCG
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Quote:
Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gillian Gibbons, the teacher who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.
Hm. They went to their prayer services, then came out demanding death for Gibbons.

Anyone care to hazard a guess what their imams were telling them inside the mosques?

From selected suras of the Koran:

2.173 "Allah is Forgiving"
2.182 "Allah is Forgiving"
2.192 "Allah is Forgiving"
2.199 "Allah is Forgiving"
2.218 "Allah is Forgiving"
2.225 "Allah is Forgiving"
2.235 "Allah is Forgiving"
3.31 "Allah is Forgiving"
3.89 "Allah is Forgiving"
3.129 "Allah is Forgiving"
3.155 "Allah is Forgiving"
4.23 "Allah is Forgiving"
4.25 "Allah is Forgiving"
4.96 "Allah is Forgiving"
4.100 "Allah is Forgiving"
4.106 "Allah is Forgiving"
4.129 "Allah is Forgiving"
4.152 "Allah is Forgiving"
5.3 "Allah is Forgiving"
5.34 "Allah is Forgiving"
5.39 "Allah is Forgiving"
5.74 "Allah is Forgiving"
5.98 "Allah is Forgiving"
5.101 "Allah is Forgiving"
8.69 "Allah is Forgiving"
8.70 "Allah is Forgiving"
9.5 "Allah is Forgiving"
9.27 "Allah is Forgiving"
9.91 "Allah is Forgiving"
9.99 "Allah is Forgiving"
9.102 "Allah is Forgiving"
16.18 "Allah is Forgiving"
16.115 "Allah is Forgiving"
24.5 "Allah is Forgiving"
24.22 "Allah is Forgiving"
24.33 "Allah is Forgiving"
24.62 "Allah is Forgiving"
25.70 "Allah is Forgiving"
33.5 "Allah is Forgiving"
33.24 "Allah is Forgiving"
33.50 "Allah is Forgiving"
33.59 "Allah is Forgiving"
33.73 "Allah is Forgiving"
42.23 "Allah is Forgiving"
48.14 "Allah is Forgiving"
49.5 "Allah is Forgiving"
49.14 "Allah is Forgiving"
57.28 "Allah is Forgiving"
58.12 "Allah is Forgiving"
60.7 "Allah is Forgiving"
60.12 "Allah is Forgiving"
64.14 "Allah is Forgiving"

One must conclude from these people's behavior on leaving their mosques that the above suras are held up as examples of sarcasm.

Last edited by BPSCG; 30th November 2007 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:04 AM   #122
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Most popular teddy bear names in the west

2006
1. Winnie
2. Theo
3. Barney

2008
1. Muhammad
2. Mohammed
3. Mohamed
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:11 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
The fact that people here are so much more outraged over this, compared to the raped women getting whipped, is because she's one of us.

The outrage is overly selective, biassed, racistic and intolerant (though admittedly not on par with the intolerance of the Sudan court).
Illogical and ridiculous. I'm British, so Ms Gibbons is 'one of us'. That may be the reason I've bothered to post about this case (I don't post much), but there is absolutely no justification for inferring that I, or others here, feel less outrage about other instances of appalling treatment of women by Islamic regimes.


Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
That doesn't count according to Mummymonkey, there would have to have been a stuffy toy related incident for her to be able to conclude that some people in Sudan appoint ridiculous significance to the name Mohammed.

Heck, I live in Europe and I knew (before all this crap got in the news) how touchy some Muslims are about anything called Mohammed.
The information we have makes it clear that the charges, the 'spontaneous' protests, the sentence, and the rabble baying for blood, are an anti-Western demonstration and a show of strength, ordered by the clerics (just as with the Mohammad cartoons). It's a bit gullible to believe that anyone's religious sensibilities have actually been offended.

Muslim organisations and scholars here have made it clear that the charges are utterly nonsensical, that there is no religious justification for them. Ms Gibbons had no reason to think that allowing her class to give the name Mohammad to a toy would be construed as insulting Islam - except, of course, that anything she, as a Westerner, did in Sudan could be construed that way. Her actual mistake was to go to Sudan at all, where any Westerner is liable to be arrested on trumped up anti-Islamic charges for political reasons.


Originally Posted by NeilC View Post
The MCB say the prosecution is bad because there was no intention to insult islam. Does that imply that they would support this sort of action if she had deliberately done it?

On the radio this morning they were speaking to muslims off the street (in London I think). A fair few of them were saying that some sort of punishment was deserved but the sentence was a bit harsh. WTF?!
We have no way of knowing how representative those Muslims are, as no doubt the interviewers, in standard irresponsible media fashion, were after a 'balance of views'.

In an interview with two Muslim 'representatives' a few days ago, one of them (some barmy cleric) was saying that Ms Gibbons should not be punished at all in this case, as it wasn't an intentional insult, but if it had been then the authorities in Sudan had every right to punish her as they saw fit. The other one, from the MCB, said that was ridiculous, and that kind of statement was harmful to Islam and to British Muslims.
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:12 AM   #124
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I think she needs to come back home for her own safety, once this is over. I would also like to know what the british diplomatic contacts are doing for her out there? Are they negotiating early release? Are they ensuring her safe passage after? Are they doing anything to support her, or fight her cause at all?
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:20 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
That doesn't count according to Mummymonkey, there would have to have been a stuffy toy related incident for her to be able to conclude that some people in Sudan appoint ridiculous significance to the name Mohammed.
I'm sure she was aware of and tried to be respectful to the religous customs of the Sudanese people. I'm quite sure also it wouldn't have crossed her mind that naming a teddybear Mohammed was a disrespectful act. I lived in the region for four years and I wouldn't have given it a second thought.
Everyone was taught that images of the prophet Mohammed are forbidden but no warning was given about the use of the name. The name's everywhere over there. Mohammed's Taxis, Mohammed's Bakery whatever. On billboards, shop fronts and in magazines and newspapers. It's a nonsense to suggest that she "should" have known this would have happened.
It's likely she's the victim of circumstance and is caught up in some local political/religious game to do with the school.
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:26 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
Illogical and ridiculous. I'm British, so Ms Gibbons is 'one of us'.
and that is what is most shocking about this case to us Brits. A scouser arrested for something other than theft.
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:26 AM   #127
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I have a question. Why would a non resident non muslim go to the Sudan in the first place? I bet after this episode there will be an exodus of foreign teachers and other non muslims leaving the country and in the future only the suicidal will go there.
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:31 AM   #128
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Sudan is one of those countries that desperately needs teachers (as well as a comprehensive educational system), lots of people want to help such a society.
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:41 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
I think she needs to come back home for her own safety, once this is over.
It occurs to me to wonder if she'll be all that safe even when she does get home. There seems to be quite a supply of extremists who might go after her
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:51 AM   #130
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I can see local yobs throwing teddy bear heads into Mosque's now instead of pig's.More hygenic at least.
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Old 30th November 2007, 07:56 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I have a question. Why would a non resident non muslim go to the Sudan in the first place? I bet after this episode there will be an exodus of foreign teachers and other non muslims leaving the country and in the future only the suicidal will go there.
She is teaching in a program called TEFL, "Teaching English as a Foreign Language". Apparently it is quite remunerative.

Head of teacher recruitment Janet Tufnell says: "We tell our teachers to respect the culture of the country." I'll bet they didn't say anything about naming teddy bears.

I doubt that the teddy bear was much of a problem until a bigwig imam decided that this would be a good way to put western civ in it's place once again. And so, once again, the government gets to look good by letting her off easy in the face of populistic death threats, and simultaneously pass a message to other foreigners about how they must tread in the future.

I think they ought to require Sudanese who want to learn English move to England.

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Old 30th November 2007, 08:34 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
This isn't the libs fault of course, but you will not see any leftist org decrying this, just as here in the USofA NOW has been utterly silent on the suffering of women in "original" cultures (such as Sudan's) while shrieking ceaselessly about men looking at women and the non-existent "glass ceiling" etc., etc.
Tokie, it'd greatly help your cause if you'd just shut the hell up for once. It's getting on my nerves, really; this endless bickering about liberals, leftists, whatever -- in this case even in a thread where everyone essentially agrees on the main point. Bashing leftists can be great fun, but your angry and bitter rants certainly aren't.

Sorry for getting personal. Back to topic: I agree with everyone else, it's an abomination, and I couldn't care less about the precise count of lashes. I also agree there is no need to exaggerate, unless of course your aim is to come off as an moronic bigot.

Rant over.

By the way, as much as I'm skeptical of Muslim organizations in Europe (I just had to endure a talk at university where I was told how devilishly the media portraits the poor Muslims and that nobody with any knowledge of the religion would associate it with violence, blah, blah, whine, whine, etc.) -- I think it's great that they immediately denounced this silliness. I can't find the quote right now, but I think I remember a tone of exasperation, which is definitely appropriate. It's just mindbogglingly mad, as though Sudan were located in a weird parallel universe or something. Right now I'm reading that the mob now demands her death. WTF?! How brainwashed can these people be? It's a frickin' teddy-bear!

OK, second rant over. I feel better now.
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Old 30th November 2007, 08:38 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
and that is what is most shocking about this case to us Brits. A scouser arrested for something other than theft.
That is most politically incorrect, so it didn't make me smile.

I see our government is still expressing "in the strongest terms" that it's a wee bit miffed. Sadly, Ms Gibbons' MP, Louise Ellman, is a bit limited in what she can do to help. According to those less than charming folks from Respect and the Muslim Association of Britain (not to be confused with the Muslim Council of Britain), Ms Ellman is "Israel's MP on Merseyside" (she's Jewish).

Anyway, this affair has solved the problem of what to call my new kittens. We were thinking about Moshi and Miri (Moses and Miriam), but now it's Mohammad and Miri.
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Old 30th November 2007, 08:49 AM   #134
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Bearing in mind she's still incarcerated in a Sudanese jail cell, the British government can only tread carefully. As soon as she's back home, though, they'd better advise all British subjects in Sudan to leave, and then cut off all aid. According to Richard Littlejohn, we've given them £326 million over the last five years, with £114 million more to come, so it would definitely hurt.
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Old 30th November 2007, 09:05 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by danielk View Post
Tokie, it'd greatly help your cause if you'd just shut the hell up for once.
Apart from anything else, he's wrong - Amnesty International for one have said that it is "mockery of justice" and are calling for her immediate and unconditional release. Damn those liberals

Originally Posted by Lucky View Post
now it's Mohammad and Miri.
Have you considered Mohammed and Khadijah for the full effect?
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Old 30th November 2007, 09:29 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
and that is what is most shocking about this case to us Brits. A scouser arrested for something other than theft.
Very funny.
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Old 30th November 2007, 09:56 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by SomeGuy View Post
I'm a bit appalled by all the outrage here.

Of course, the sentence is ridiculous and nonsensical.

It's a country where women can get punished (more severely) for being raped. She should have known that the name muhamed could have given her trouble, of course it shouldn't have, but she could have known.

The fact that people here are so much more outraged over this, compared to the raped women getting whipped, is because she's one of us.

The outrage is overly selective, biassed, racistic and intolerant (though admittedly not on par with the intolerance of the Sudan court).
.
Tokie, this would have been your queue.
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Old 30th November 2007, 12:05 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Bearing in mind she's still incarcerated in a Sudanese jail cell, the British government can only tread carefully. As soon as she's back home, though, they'd better advise all British subjects in Sudan to leave, and then cut off all aid. According to Richard Littlejohn, we've given them £326 million over the last five years, with £114 million more to come, so it would definitely hurt.
This is more than a Sudan thing. A lot of people fail to realize it is a Shari'a thing, a Pan-Islamic thing. Sure a lot of Muslims are appalled but until or unless Islam rids itself of shari'a and its fanatical clergy it is a religion that will suffer for its excesses. Here's a late report from the NY Daily News of the rising tensions in Sudan over this Teddy Bear insult:

Quote:
Thousands of protesters, many brandishing clubs and swords, took to the streets of Sudan’s capital Friday, demanding the execution of a British teacher who let her students name a teddy bear Muhammad.

Gillian Gibbons, 54, was moved from the women’s prison near Khartoum to a secret location for her protection, her lawyer said.

Gibbons was found guilty Thursday of insulting Islam and sentenced to 15 days in jail. She was spared the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

That angered many in Khartoum, who rallied in Martyrs Square outside the presidential palace. Protesters waved sticks, knives, axes and swords.

“Kill her, kill her by firing squad!” they chanted. “No tolerance, execution!”
Others shouted, “Shame, shame on the U.K.”

A cleric at Khartoum’s main Martyrs Mosque claimed Gibbons had intentionally insulted the Muslim faith.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_w...achers_de.html

One picture, unfortunately, in this case, is worth a 1000 words. It is truly hard to believe that all these people are taking to the street with their swords unsheathed veying for the privilege of cutting this lady's head off. Clearly the rage that is apparent on the faces of the rioters is the result of them being worked up into a frenzied state by their illustrous imams.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sudanteddybear.jpg (21.7 KB, 186 views)

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Old 30th November 2007, 01:34 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Most popular teddy bear names in the west

2006
1. Winnie
2. Theo
3. Barney

2008
1. Muhammad
2. Mohammed
3. Mohamed
2108
1. Computron
2. 3928-AX2
3. Ursine Simulation
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Old 30th November 2007, 01:39 PM   #140
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I think the best response is to shop now for your muhammed, muhammad, mohammed or mahomet Teddy Bear!
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Old 30th November 2007, 02:20 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well Cabbage patch dolls were an affront

....- to anyone with intelligence.
We have an accord.
Originally Posted by a5
Protesters in Khartoum are marching the streets complaining her sentence is too lenient,and calling for her to be shot!!

Lovely people.
Originally Posted by Ranillon's article link
"Shame, shame on the U.K.," protesters chanted.

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad."

The women's prison where Gibbons is being held is far from the site. Unity High School, which is closer by in central Khartoum, is under heavy security protection.

The protest arose despite vows by Sudanese security officials the day before, during Gibbons' trial, that threatened demonstrations after Friday prayers would not take place. Some of the protesters carried green banners with the name of the Society for Support of the Prophet Muhammad, a previously unknown group.

Many protesters carried clubs, knives and axes - but not automatic weapons, which some have brandished at past government-condoned demonstrations. That suggested Friday's rally was not organized by the government.

A Muslim cleric at Khartoum's main Martyrs Mosque denounced Gibbons during one sermon, saying she intentionally insulted Islam. He did not call for protests, however.

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan. But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion," the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well-known hard-liner, told worshippers.

"This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.
That rather neutralizes the other protests from which you drew some scent of silver lining in the cloud, but I understand your feeling that "better than nothing" can sometimes be considered good news.

DR
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Old 30th November 2007, 03:12 PM   #142
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An old Muslim on BBC news leaned to camera and said" If I find this woman,I will kill her myself and cut her head off"

i think she's been made a patsy.Where's the child whose idea it was? Eh? It's a travesty.
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Old 30th November 2007, 03:14 PM   #143
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How about designing a T-Shirt: "Muhammad ate my teddy bear!"

ETA: I'm still exasperated. I mean, teddy bears are cuddly! They are supposed to make people mellow and all woozzie in the head. Cuteeeessssiieeee teddy bear! I mean, what's wrong with these people?

Maybe they are still holding some grudge against Theodor Roosevelt because of some conspiracy against them of his making. Who knows, maybe the teddy incident will enter history because it blew the lid off of the greatest conspiracy of all time. Or something. Maybe I should start just asking questions.
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Old 30th November 2007, 09:37 PM   #144
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Hmmm -- look what I "found"... Here's hoping it doesn't start an international incident, although it is perfectly innocent.

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I AGREE
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Old 30th November 2007, 11:39 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Hmmm -- look what I "found"... Here's hoping it doesn't start an international incident, although it is perfectly innocent.

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That teddybear reminds me of my dog. Kind of a "love me or I'll eat your soul" sort of relationship.
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Old 1st December 2007, 04:39 AM   #146
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Action Man and Care Bears coalition are sending a release and rescue team to Sudan right now.
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Old 1st December 2007, 07:39 AM   #147
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oops
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Old 1st December 2007, 10:15 AM   #148
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I heard on the news she is going to jail, 55 days comes to mind.
In some horrific women's prison, from memory.
(Sorry no link to confirm.)

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Old 1st December 2007, 10:16 AM   #149
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I went on the best comedy site on the Internet, ask-imam that is, and did a search for "teddy".

There was a question about teddy bears, namely
Quote:
"Teddy Bears, stuffed animals, cuddly toys, cartoon characters, walking and speaking robots, are these toys allowed in Muslim homes, for their children to play or sleep with?"
The reply was
Quote:
"Islam prohibits the keeping of pictures of any animate objects in one's home. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has mentioned, The angels of mercy do not enter such homes wherein pictures of animate objects are kept."

If this is right, and I am not sure as this site seems to be full of really weird stuff, then the family of the child who owns (owned) the bear should be chastised too.
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Old 1st December 2007, 12:06 PM   #150
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"The angels of mercy do not enter such homes wherein pictures of animate objects are kept"?

So, heavenly agents of the all-powerful god can be kept at bay by Hello Kitty?

I knew there was evil power in Hello Kitty, I just never realized it could be used as a defense against gods. Like garlic against vampires, presumably. I wonder if Hello Kitty wards off Jesus, too? If only the Romans had known that, they could have stuck a Hello Kitty lunchbox in the tomb and prevented the Resurrection!
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Old 1st December 2007, 12:40 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by biomorph View Post
I heard on the news she is going to jail, 55 days comes to mind.
In some horrific women's prison, from memory.
(Sorry no link to confirm.)

regards
BM
Fifteen days, five-six which she's already served. Little consolation for her though. Just goes to show how far-reaching our diplomatic sway is these days.

Last edited by Big Les; 1st December 2007 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 1st December 2007, 04:12 PM   #152
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As I understand it, it was the kids who named the bear Mohammed. Why not sentence the kids to time/lashes/death? They're the ones who instigated it!
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Old 1st December 2007, 04:14 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by greymatters View Post
As I understand it, it was the kids who named the bear Mohammed. Why not sentence the kids to time/lashes/death? Their the ones who instigated it!
They tried, but the first girl was wearing a "Dora the Explorer" t-shirt, so the religious authorities were unable to approach her for fear of idolatry via osmosis.
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Old 1st December 2007, 04:48 PM   #154
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The rules only apply to white British citizens.
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Old 1st December 2007, 04:55 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by greymatters View Post
As I understand it, it was the kids who named the bear Mohammed. Why not sentence the kids to time/lashes/death? They're the ones who instigated it!
They should've named it Mahmoud, Khalid,
Achmed or K-Fed or something.

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Old 2nd December 2007, 01:35 AM   #156
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Buddha Bear

There seem to be at least four issues here.

1.) Is it acceptable for a country to have laws that exist solely to protect/promote a religion? (laws against blasphemy, laws against polygamy, etc. - regardless of the punishment for breaking those laws)

2.) It is acceptable to whip someone for breaking a law? (I imagine people are whipped every day for lots of different violations)

3.) Is ignorance of a law or accidentally breaking a law still illegal?

4.) Is the problem only that the punishment does not fit the crime? (i.e. both religious laws and whipping are fine, but in this case the potential punishment is too severe)

What would have happened if she named the bear Jesus?
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Old 2nd December 2007, 01:49 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Smackety View Post
<snip>What would have happened if she named the bear Jesus?
I do not know of anyone living called Jesus. However there are many people called Mahammad. The bear in quesiton was named after one of the students.

If she was in Australia and called it Jesus then I doubt that it woudl casue much of a problem.

Bear for sale
Name - Mohamed Teddy Bear AKA Jesus Bear Buddha Bear Tony Bear
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Old 2nd December 2007, 01:59 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by tkingdoll View Post
They're now claiming this is insulting because culturally, they don't have teddy bears and so are used to the bear as a ferocious thing which eats people. Or some crap like that.
Ah yes, that would be the Sandy-Eared Bear native to the Middle East, infamous in legend and song for the great gnashing of jagged teeth and the consumption of many brave Saracen warriors.

-Gumboot
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Old 2nd December 2007, 04:57 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I do not know of anyone living called Jesus.

You have to be kidding. Oh, maybe you don't have any Latinos living by you. Jesus is common.
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Old 2nd December 2007, 08:20 AM   #160
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I really need to stay away from Sudan. My temptation would have been to call a press conference, humbly apologize for the unwitting offense, then make it all better by renaming the bear to "Allah".
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