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Old 27th December 2020, 05:26 PM   #81
Orphia Nay
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Would you make the same excuses for a right wing regime?
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But you defend and excuse them..at least if they have a left wing ideology.
China is a vast, complex, place.

Reducing the issues to right/left, black/white, isn't what we're here for.
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Old 27th December 2020, 11:57 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Would you make the same excuses for a right wing regime?
It's not an excuse, it's a psychological effect:

if the cake grows so that most people's slices stay the same in volume whilst another one's slice grows, it feels to the others who are no worse off like something has been taken away from them.
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Old 28th December 2020, 12:07 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's not an excuse, it's a psychological effect:

if the cake grows so that most people's slices stay the same in volume whilst another one's slice grows, it feels to the others who are no worse off like something has been taken away from them.
Good example.

We're not all exploiting the world's resources as much as we used to when China was seen as The Yellow Peril by the USA.

We're more intelligently creating ways to use and reuse them. It's been a slow process, and there's a long way to go, but it's scientifically proven.
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Old 28th December 2020, 12:27 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It's not an excuse, it's a psychological effect:

if the cake grows so that most people's slices stay the same in volume whilst another one's slice grows, it feels to the others who are no worse off like something has been taken away from them.
The ever-enlightening "elephant chart"



The dirt poorest in the world are still right where they were, but up to 70th percentile all got dramatically less poor. India and China are frequent examples of the peak there (

Then it nosedives into the 80th percentile until the very end (basically the poor and middle classes of the developed world). Then, of course, a dramatic spike for the already affluent.

"Share of growth" instead of "cumulative growth" makes these swings even more volatile.

*Unless in the top 2% or so (but nevermind them, they aren't why you're poor, China is! They terk'r'jerbs!)

So yeah, a big swathe of everyday Joes and Janes got next to no growth while literally everyone but them (and people who have been living rough for over a decade already) had some of that "upward mobility" and ta-da.

Resentment!

ETA: but also, seriously myopic, privileged, and entirely self-deluded resentment.

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Old 28th December 2020, 02:23 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
China is a vast, complex, place.
That's a cop-out.

The size of the country and diversity of populace is irrelevant when a central committee runs the place homogenously.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Reducing the issues to right/left, black/white, isn't what we're here for.
Depends if the issue is black & white, and in the case of China, it is.

Xi is boss for life, and he's continually tightening the grip of the CCP over the population. They're rewriting history as we type. In another generation no Chinese person under 30 will know that Genghis Khan conquered the country, that Uighurs are muslin Chinese, or that Honkers used to be British.

This story certainly appears to be real: https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/27/drug-...ldren-7665476/

Here's the Chinese version, including video, and there are definitely schoolkids there: http://v.hinews.cn/page-1329629.html

Is that the action of a sane regime? Looks very black and white to me.
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Old 28th December 2020, 07:09 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
China is a vast, complex, place.
That's a cop-out.
Not cop-out. Just sad attempt of apologia for totalitarian dictatorship without being laughed out of room on spot.
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Old 28th December 2020, 01:10 PM   #87
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Old 28th December 2020, 08:01 PM   #88
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And just to balance the scales a little - China isn't entirely bad, and nor is totalitarianism.

In some things, having a totalitarian regime works well - Covid, for instance. If China's response had been as pathetic as America's, they'd have 15 million dead about now, instead of the paltry 4000, which were all right at the start.

Another example is how China refuses to accept monopolistic practices. Alibaba getting too much power?

Smack!

Meanwhile, how are the anti-trust cases going in USA?

No system is bad of itself - the people cause the problems, and as I mentioned before, Acton's Law has a greater chance of success in a dictatorship.
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Old 28th December 2020, 08:46 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Not cop-out. Just sad attempt of apologia for totalitarian dictatorship without being laughed out of room on spot.
Another attempt to bully me for starting a thread when there wasn't one about China and for trying to address both sides.

I made a short reply above to a short post.


Thanks The Atheist, for going into more detail about the good and the bad.
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Old 28th December 2020, 09:00 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's a cop-out.

The size of the country and diversity of populace is irrelevant when a central committee runs the place homogenously.



Depends if the issue is black & white, and in the case of China, it is.

Xi is boss for life, and he's continually tightening the grip of the CCP over the population. They're rewriting history as we type. In another generation no Chinese person under 30 will know that Genghis Khan conquered the country, that Uighurs are muslin Chinese, or that Honkers used to be British.

This story certainly appears to be real: https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/27/drug-...ldren-7665476/

Here's the Chinese version, including video, and there are definitely schoolkids there: http://v.hinews.cn/page-1329629.html

Is that the action of a sane regime? Looks very black and white to me.

It didn't show that the students saw the shootings. The prisoners were walked away into divvy vans.

But it's shocking that students who appear to be middle school age are taken to see the prisoners just before they die.

These days executions we see more about them because of the world of Twitter and Trump pardoning them.

"Amnesty International claims that Mainland China executes more people than all other countries combined,[9] though if China's very large population is taken into account, the number of executions per capita is comparable to Vietnam and Thailand, and much lower than several countries, including Saudi Arabia, Iran and the United States.[10] The exact numbers of executions, and death sentences, are considered a state secret by China, and not publicly available.[11] According to the Dui Hua Foundation, a U.S.-based organization, the estimated number of executions has declined steadily in the twenty-first century, from 12,000 each year to supposedly 2,400.[12]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capita...hment_in_China

Nothing about capital punishment is sane.
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Old 28th December 2020, 09:11 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's a cop-out.

The size of the country and diversity of populace is irrelevant when a central committee runs the place homogenously.



Depends if the issue is black & white, and in the case of China, it is.

Xi is boss for life, and he's continually tightening the grip of the CCP over the population. They're rewriting history as we type. In another generation no Chinese person under 30 will know that Genghis Khan conquered the country, that Uighurs are muslin Chinese, or that Honkers used to be British.

This story certainly appears to be real: https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/27/drug-...ldren-7665476/

Here's the Chinese version, including video, and there are definitely schoolkids there: http://v.hinews.cn/page-1329629.html
Can't see anyone either immediately executed or school kids.

Looks like just a few drug dealers being the face the camera.

Maybe they got executed later, but can't tell as I don't speak cantonese.

Not that it really matters as apparently like a lot of countries it looks like drug dealers end up dead.

Bad luck and that, but who cares.
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Old 28th December 2020, 09:39 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
China is a vast, complex, place.

Reducing the issues to right/left, black/white, isn't what we're here for.
Taiwan offers a great model for how China could have developed as a country if the communists had not taken over: it would hardly have been a perfect (or even guaranteed) transition from poor authoritarian developing country to a modern developed liberal democracy, but at least it would be a whole lot better than anything that the communists would do.

Just like with Lenin and the Soviet Union, Mao and his successors set China back a many decades by in effect entrenching the worst regressive authoritarian and illiberal tendencies of the regimes that they replaced. There's no need to balance the "good" they did with the "bad" simply because they don't depend on each-other.
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Old 28th December 2020, 10:17 PM   #93
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Here's where I think is at the root of Western fear of China. In Europe, the US, Australia etc. people grow up believing that their prosperity is directly tied to Western values such as respect for individual rights. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc. China doesn't have any of that but it has industrialized rapidly and raised living standards. So what does that tell the West about its origin myths?

When the CCP wants to build a hydroelectric dam they don't need to worry about the consent of the governed, or do environmental studies or buy property. They just do it. Displaced people will be told where to live next and what sort of job they'll be doing. Historically and at present the emphasis has always been on doing what's said to be good for the collective. Of course China is a huge diverse place and you will find all kinds of interesting people there and some are wise to the ways of the government. But policy is to throttle any democratic reform in the cradle. No, you can't be that religion. No, you can't say that. No, you can't read about that. Mostly people just accept it.

If it's possible to have a high standard of living without having any of the freedoms we've had in the West, you begin to wonder whether freedom has any intrinsic value. If people's needs are met just as well without all the Bill of Rights rigamarole, perhaps honoring individual rights is foolish. Perhaps we should put our faith in a small group of elites who will decide what's best for everybody. That appears to be where the planet is headed these days with the rise of authoritarian governments. Western minds will balk - we respect individual rights because it's the right thing to do and we believe it makes our countries stronger. What if it makes us weaker? We'll be easy pickings for those who wield power more ruthlessly.
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Old 28th December 2020, 10:50 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Here's where I think is at the root of Western fear of China. In Europe, the US, Australia etc. people grow up believing that their prosperity is directly tied to Western values such as respect for individual rights. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc. China doesn't have any of that but it has industrialized rapidly and raised living standards. So what does that tell the West about its origin myths?

When the CCP wants to build a hydroelectric dam they don't need to worry about the consent of the governed, or do environmental studies or buy property. They just do it. Displaced people will be told where to live next and what sort of job they'll be doing. Historically and at present the emphasis has always been on doing what's said to be good for the collective. Of course China is a huge diverse place and you will find all kinds of interesting people there and some are wise to the ways of the government. But policy is to throttle any democratic reform in the cradle. No, you can't be that religion. No, you can't say that. No, you can't read about that. Mostly people just accept it.

If it's possible to have a high standard of living without having any of the freedoms we've had in the West, you begin to wonder whether freedom has any intrinsic value. If people's needs are met just as well without all the Bill of Rights rigamarole, perhaps honoring individual rights is foolish. Perhaps we should put our faith in a small group of elites who will decide what's best for everybody. That appears to be where the planet is headed these days with the rise of authoritarian governments. Western minds will balk - we respect individual rights because it's the right thing to do and we believe it makes our countries stronger. What if it makes us weaker? We'll be easy pickings for those who wield power more ruthlessly.


Meanwhile they at least in appearance seem to give a **** more about global warming in comparison to the US.
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Old 28th December 2020, 11:26 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Meanwhile they at least in appearance seem to give a **** more about global warming in comparison to the US.
China is a very old country that has managed to sustain itself for centuries with most arable land under constant cultivation. Nothing was wasted. People just didn't have enough stuff to waste. Night soil provided fertilizer, old clothes were made into shoes, etc. I'm sure that has changed with consumer culture.

China has as big stake in lowering greenhouse gases; they live on the same planet as everyone else. And their top-down government can issue more directives limiting emissions. They still burn a lot of dirty coal though.

They also want to sell the rest of the world their solar panels etc.
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Old 29th December 2020, 12:56 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Another attempt to bully me for starting a thread when there wasn't one about China and for trying to address both sides.

I made a short reply above to a short post.


Thanks The Atheist, for going into more detail about the good and the bad.
Right. I get so tired when people insist on seeing even semi-complex systems in black and white (and of course implying that they own the definition of what is black and white). It gets even worse when they claim that everyone who doesn't buy into their interpretation is actively endorsing the opposite color.

And China is not just complex. China is arguably the most complex nation on the planet.

Hans
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Old 29th December 2020, 01:06 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
China is a very old country that has managed to sustain itself for centuries with most arable land under constant cultivation. Nothing was wasted. People just didn't have enough stuff to waste. Night soil provided fertilizer, old clothes were made into shoes, etc. I'm sure that has changed with consumer culture.

China has as big stake in lowering greenhouse gases; they live on the same planet as everyone else. And their top-down government can issue more directives limiting emissions. They still burn a lot of dirty coal though.

They also want to sell the rest of the world their solar panels etc.
Doesn't really moot my point.
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Old 29th December 2020, 03:05 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Nothing about capital punishment is sane.
Could not agree more.

It doesn't show our species in great light.

Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Can't see anyone either immediately executed or school kids.
The story was in English as well. It appears to be true.
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Old 29th December 2020, 09:33 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Doesn't really moot my point.
I wasn't trying to moot it. I mean what I say about China and sustainability. But it's a simple fact that it's easier to modify behavior there than it is in the West. If you're raised to believe the government knows best, you are more willing to accept top-down directives. If you believe free human beings generate superior solutions, you're less inclined to accept that the government knows best.
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Old 30th December 2020, 12:58 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Not cop-out. Just sad attempt of apologia for totalitarian dictatorship without being laughed out of room on spot.
And you can say the same about any country...certainly applies to Nazi Germany.
The real joke is that China is not a Socialist Country despite the Government's rhetoric...The CCP had been sescribed as a CINO party..Communist in Name Only.
And that that mass murderer Mao is still held up as some kind of God should tell you something.
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Old 30th December 2020, 01:05 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Right. I get so tired when people insist on seeing even semi-complex systems in black and white (and of course implying that they own the definition of what is black and white). It gets even worse when they claim that everyone who doesn't buy into their interpretation is actively endorsing the opposite color.

And China is not just complex. China is arguably the most complex nation on the planet.

Hans
I repeat, this is an awful lot like the crap printed in the 1930's to try to excuse Uncle Joe.
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Old 30th December 2020, 01:11 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I repeat, this is an awful lot like the crap printed in the 1930's to try to excuse Uncle Joe.
It's even worse rubbish when the CCP is deliberately and obviously homogenising the country.

The differences between the regions are irrelevant when you have a single, centralised command.

I struggle to see why that's so hard to understand.
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Old 30th December 2020, 02:21 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And you can say the same about any country...certainly applies to Nazi Germany.
The real joke is that China is not a Socialist Country despite the Government's rhetoric...The CCP had been sescribed as a CINO party..Communist in Name Only.
And that that mass murderer Mao is still held up as some kind of God should tell you something.
China is not very socialist, no.

The general Chinese position on Mao is that 60% of what he did was good, so he ain't half bad.

Bit strange in our eyes, but Chinese way of reckoning is different.

Hans
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Old 30th December 2020, 03:39 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
The general Chinese position on Mao is that 60% of what he did was good, so he ain't half bad.
A lot of Chinese don't know what Mao did. There was a Reddit thread recently about Chinese immigrants who found out what their taught history had omitted. Not just recent things like Tianaman Square--things like the entire Cultural Revolution were blamed on deputies "because Mao was ill at the time", the Great Leap Forward and Hundred Flowers were omitted entirely. And of course if you don't know about something you don't know that you don't know it. Control information and you can get the population to believe whatever you like. For that alone I think we can say that China is not governed by benevolent parties.
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Old 30th December 2020, 08:40 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
China is not very socialist, no.

The general Chinese position on Mao is that 60% of what he did was good, so he ain't half bad.

Bit strange in our eyes, but Chinese way of reckoning is different.

Hans
Anokther variation on "..but he made the trains run on time".

And again, it this were a right wing regime would be making the same "differenent way o reckoning" excuse.

Or do you advocate total there is no right or wrong amorality?
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Old 31st December 2020, 07:02 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Anokther variation on "..but he made the trains run on time".

And again, it this were a right wing regime would be making the same "differenent way o reckoning" excuse.

Or do you advocate total there is no right or wrong amorality?

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Anokther variation on "..but he made the trains run on time".
That's a cop out.

Quote:
And again, it this were a right wing regime would be making the same "differenent way o reckoning" excuse.

Or do you advocate total there is no right or wrong amorality?

At what rank in the CCP do you become a totalitarian dictator?
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Old 31st December 2020, 07:41 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
At what rank in the CCP do you become a totalitarian dictator?
President.
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Old 1st January 2021, 03:37 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Anokther variation on "..but he made the trains run on time".

And again, it this were a right wing regime would be making the same "differenent way o reckoning" excuse.

Or do you advocate total there is no right or wrong amorality?
I'm not advocating anything. This thread is about whether people are afraid of China and why. Therefore information about China is important. I am supplying information about China.

Sure, my opinion on China is no doubt different from that of several people here, but I'm not making excuses for that or for China. I don't need to.

Hans
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Old 1st January 2021, 04:02 AM   #109
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It's a country governed by communist dictatorship.

Democracy is non existent.
Free speech is a criminal offence.
Millions of Uighurs are incarcerated for no other reason than being Muslim.

And the western world uses it as a sweatshop.
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Old 1st January 2021, 04:11 PM   #110
Mader Levap
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It's a country governed by communist dictatorship.

Democracy is non existent.
Free speech is a criminal offence.
Millions of Uighurs are incarcerated for no other reason than being Muslim.

And the western world uses it as a sweatshop.
But... but... they are very diverse and have very long history and very rich culture!

That current Chinese gov is trying to suppress that richness and culture and diversity is just little unimportant detail, right Orphia Nay, MRC_Hans?
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Old 2nd January 2021, 03:59 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
But... but... they are very diverse and have very long history and very rich culture!

That current Chinese gov is trying to suppress that richness and culture and diversity is just little unimportant detail, right Orphia Nay, MRC_Hans?
Where did I say that?

Hans
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Old 2nd January 2021, 04:32 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Where did I say that?



Hans
It's not what you said, it's what you didn't say.

:monocle:
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Old 3rd January 2021, 04:03 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
It's not what you said, it's what you didn't say.

:monocle:
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Old 5th January 2021, 01:38 AM   #114
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Not even Jack Ma can criticise the PRC: https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/3...banking-sector
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Old 8th January 2021, 01:28 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Not even Jack Ma can criticise the PRC: https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/3...banking-sector
This article seems to (IMHO) show a correlation between the Ant Group platform and many opinions of the Facebook tech giant:

"Ma has been remarkably quiet since then. The Ant IPO has sunk and the company could potentially be broken up as regulators look to get the company to provide more transparency on its inner- workings. Faced with this level of scrutiny keeping a low profile is probably in Ma's best interest."

https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...06-p56s1z.html (Sydney Morning Herald).


In other China news, Chinese annual import quotas on Australian wool have been lifted by 5% (around 11,000 bales).

https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/20...quota/13039656 (ABC News)

No news on lobster and wine, though, quotas that China reduced in 2020.
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Old 8th January 2021, 11:56 AM   #116
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SIgh...the Useful Idiots will never learn.
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Old 13th January 2021, 10:59 AM   #117
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The reasons to be afraid of China are similar to the reasons to be afraid of a Trump Presidency in the US. If you are afraid of one but not the other there is likely some cognitive bias going on. If you are afraid of neither there is likely some cognitive deficit going on.
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Old 13th January 2021, 11:07 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And that that mass murderer Mao is still held up as some kind of God should tell you something.
It's not unusual for national mythologies to be at odds with historical facts.
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Old 13th January 2021, 11:52 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
The reasons to be afraid of China are similar to the reasons to be afraid of a Trump Presidency in the US. If you are afraid of one but not the other there is likely some cognitive bias going on. If you are afraid of neither there is likely some cognitive deficit going on.
It may be obvious, but could you possibly spell out the Trump/China parallels?
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Old 13th January 2021, 01:46 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
It may be obvious, but could you possibly spell out the Trump/China parallels?
Their approach to trade, international relations and internal politics are all very similar. They view trade as a zero sum game they can "win" by exploiting other nations instead of a partnership where both sides benefit.


International relations are all about projecting prestige and power and exerting authority and control over other nations with military and economic threats. Also, once you dig a little there is an innate sense of racial superiority underpinning their perceptions of what the world order should look like.

In terms of internal politics they are both Xi and Trump authoritarian where people are expected to spend considerable time and effort making them look good. Rules can be made or broken on a whim to further their personal goals regardless of any long term negative consequences. China is one party rule, while Republicans in general and Trump in particular are doing many things in the background to ensure one party rule in spite of being a minority.

Trump doesn't have the same level of control over government institutions nor has he suppressed the challenges to his rule, but he certainly made a play for it.
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