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Tags bullying , koskela , murder

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Old 21st February 2021, 12:33 PM   #1
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Teenage Killers in Finland

There have been shock waves throughout Finland over a murder of a 16-year-old schoolboy by his fellow classmates, three other 16-year-old boys. He was beaten to death 4 December 2020 on public grounds near a hospital in Koskela, Helsinki. The shock comes from the fact that the victim has been bullied by two of the same boys since primary school and by the other who more recently joined his high school class.

Interviews with his classmates and teachers revealed that they had all been aware of the bullying for a long time...yet nobody in this welfare state paradise, with a famed 'best education system in the world' plaudit, together with a much cited generous 'baby box' to all new mothers full of baby clothes, blankets and newborn accessories...stepped in once to stop it!

The victim is described as really well behaved, kind and submissive. So much so, that he had even once removed his glasses so that another boy could hit him in the head, whilst he was laying on a bench.

All four 16-year-olds are described as 'Finns' - presumably to make clear it is not a 'hate' crime.

The victim attended the 'birthday party' of one of the boys in a kind of park area. He was given extremely strong alcohol to drink and the other boys took it in turns to beat him and brutally degrade him by ripping his clothes. Two girls who passed by witnessed the boys and said they thought they they were 'very drunk or on drugs'. The boys deny murder, with which they are charged, claiming that it was just grievous bodily harm as they didn't intend to kill him. However, throughout the hours long beating, they recorded themselves on Snapchat and circulated the pictures. In one picture, next morning, after returning to the boy where he had been left, one of the teens is heard to say, I think he's dead. They even discuss what they should do with the body and whether to destroy it. A third boy claims he only went back once or twice to level a blow on the victim but was not present at the fatal end.

The trial is currently being held behind closed doors. Because of their age, the maximum sentence is between two to eight years, depending on whether they are found guilty of murder or a lesser charge. To American readers this will sound incredibly light, as compared to the USA. However, the victim's parents are demanding €12,000 each in damages, which is how most European courts operate: perps have to pay their victim compensation.

You can read about the case, here, on Wikipedia:

Quote:
Prior to the homicide, suspects had robbed the victim in August 2020. In connection with the robbery, the victim was subjected to violence and deprived of property and money. The case was reported to the police in September. [4] The victim had also been beaten on several occasions by the suspects since the summer. [2] [5]

The victim and the perpetrators had celebrated one perpetrator's birthday in the vicinity of Koskela Hospital on Friday, December 4th. At some point in the evening, the three sons of the party had begun to beat the partially defenseless fourth son of the party. [6] Violence had taken place in various parts of the hospital area. [7] According to the police, the violence lasted up to 3-4 hours and was humiliating for the victim: the perpetrators had forced the victim to drink alcohol , as well as brutal violence on various parts of the victim's body and urination . [8] The suspects described their actions on their phones. [9] [10]Two of the perpetrators had visited the body the next day. The body was to be destroyed, but eventually the idea was abandoned. [11]

The victim's body had time to be at the scene of the killing over the weekend until Monday, December 7, when it was discovered by a builder who came to work. The body was partially naked when found. [12]

In February 2021, three 16-year-old boys were charged with murder , robbery , incitement to robbery and nine assaults
[Google Translated]

Experts are blaming the use of social media - sharing extreme video images - and there is a lot of fuss in the newspaper about the 78% increase in teenage violence over the last year.
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Old 21st February 2021, 12:38 PM   #2
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What I find interesting is that it seems like nobody - not parents, not educators, not sociologists, not regulators, not lawmakers - have any ******* clue how to deal with bullies.

The entire world seems to agree that the only real response to bullying is to just close your eyes and hope it doesn't get too bad.
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Old 21st February 2021, 12:56 PM   #3
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Slightly an aside, but three murdering psychos just happened to find each other in the same school? Sounds like they are not as rare as we often assume, and the bastards are everywhere. Maybe sitting near you right now. Maybe a few of them.

Also, 12k Euros for murdering a child? There's a bigger payout for a slip and fall in a commercial establishment in the States, paid out as a nuicance settlement to avoid the cost of litigation.
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Old 21st February 2021, 12:59 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I find interesting is that it seems like nobody - not parents, not educators, not sociologists, not regulators, not lawmakers - have any ******* clue how to deal with bullies.

The entire world seems to agree that the only real response to bullying is to just close your eyes and hope it doesn't get too bad.
They do know what works but are not willing to go the route of severe consequences for bullies.
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Old 21st February 2021, 01:05 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Slightly an aside, but three murdering psychos just happened to find each other in the same school? Sounds like they are not as rare as we often assume, and the bastards are everywhere. Maybe sitting near you right now. Maybe a few of them.

Also, 12k Euros for murdering a child? There's a bigger payout for a slip and fall in a commercial establishment in the States, paid out as a nuicance settlement to avoid the cost of litigation.
One of the bullies - the best friend from primary school - is said to be popular and well-liked. However, one of the other alleged killers is described as being a truly nasty character, aggressive, from a bad home, and is likely the ringleader.
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Old 21st February 2021, 01:06 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There have been shock waves throughout Finland over a murder of a 16-year-old schoolboy by his fellow classmates, three other 16-year-old boys. He was beaten to death 4 December 2020 on public grounds near a hospital in Koskela, Helsinki. The shock comes from the fact that the victim has been bullied by two of the same boys since primary school and by the other who more recently joined his high school class.

Interviews with his classmates and teachers revealed that they had all been aware of the bullying for a long time...yet nobody in this welfare state paradise, with a famed 'best education system in the world' plaudit, together with a much cited generous 'baby box' to all new mothers full of baby clothes, blankets and newborn accessories...stepped in once to stop it!

The victim is described as really well behaved, kind and submissive. So much so, that he had even once removed his glasses so that another boy could hit him in the head, whilst he was laying on a bench.

All four 16-year-olds are described as 'Finns' - presumably to make clear it is not a 'hate' crime.

The victim attended the 'birthday party' of one of the boys in a kind of park area. He was given extremely strong alcohol to drink and the other boys took it in turns to beat him and brutally degrade him by ripping his clothes. Two girls who passed by witnessed the boys and said they thought they they were 'very drunk or on drugs'. The boys deny murder, with which they are charged, claiming that it was just grievous bodily harm as they didn't intend to kill him. However, throughout the hours long beating, they recorded themselves on Snapchat and circulated the pictures. In one picture, next morning, after returning to the boy where he had been left, one of the teens is heard to say, I think he's dead. They even discuss what they should do with the body and whether to destroy it. A third boy claims he only went back once or twice to level a blow on the victim but was not present at the fatal end.

The trial is currently being held behind closed doors. Because of their age, the maximum sentence is between two to eight years, depending on whether they are found guilty of murder or a lesser charge. To American readers this will sound incredibly light, as compared to the USA. However, the victim's parents are demanding €12,000 each in damages, which is how most European courts operate: perps have to pay their victim compensation.

You can read about the case, here, on Wikipedia:

[Google Translated]

Experts are blaming the use of social media - sharing extreme video images - and there is a lot of fuss in the newspaper about the 78% increase in teenage violence over the last year.
Not quite sure what a welfare state has to do with this. It's typical teenage human bullying behaviour world-wide for a few ******** to beat up on "weaker" kids. Often communities tend to see this as "usual" and "part of growing up", like the drinking and riding motorcycles into traffic.
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Old 21st February 2021, 01:09 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Not quite sure what a welfare state has to do with this. It's typical teenage human bullying behaviour world-wide for a few ******** to beat up on "weaker" kids. Often communities tend to see this as "usual" and "part of growing up", like the drinking and riding motorcycles into traffic.
The thing about this teen is that he was in the care of child social services. His parents had sent him to an 'orphanage' in Helsinki because he had some kind of mental health issue and suffered badly from depression and mild delinquency. One of the bullies is actually known to the parents as he used to go round there to play together.

The orphanage he was staying at didn't even report him missing until the Tuesday (died Friday, found Monday by a builder).
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Old 22nd February 2021, 03:08 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I find interesting is that it seems like nobody - not parents, not educators, not sociologists, not regulators, not lawmakers - have any ******* clue how to deal with bullies.

The entire world seems to agree that the only real response to bullying is to just close your eyes and hope it doesn't get too bad.
I have a method for dealing with bullies, but it is very unpopular with many. When my sister was being bullied at school, I found out about it. He was well known as the school bully, and he pretty much picked on kids that were smaller than himself.

Well, I cornered the little bastard when he was trying to force my sister out into a busy street to get past him as she tried to walk home, and I gave him a hiding he would not soon forget. I warned him that if he so much as looked at my sister again, I would be around with a few schoolmates and we would finish the job.

That was 50 years ago, I was 15 my sister was 11, and that action would probably not go down well these days. It was, however, effective. Not only did he never bother sis again, he stopped being the school bully - lesson learned the hard way.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:08 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I find interesting is that it seems like nobody - not parents, not educators, not sociologists, not regulators, not lawmakers - have any ******* clue how to deal with bullies.

The entire world seems to agree that the only real response to bullying is to just close your eyes and hope it doesn't get too bad.
There's always Bullies2Buddies.

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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:09 AM   #10
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The suspects are named as Veeti Neramo, Heikki Juutinen and Alexis Koskivaara (pictured). There was a fourth boy, who seems to have had the charges dropped. According to the charge sheet, Juutinen appears to be identified by the police as the lead aggressor.

Alexis' mother is an English and Swedish teacher.

Veeti's stepfather had a baby six years ago with his mother, Inka Neramo.

The victim is named as Atso Liuhanen.

Case adjourned until early March. Now in camera because it was thought the suspects might be inhibited from giving evidence freely in the presence of the public and the press, despite the prosecutor arguing that the case was of public interest and should be publicised as plainly as possible.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have a method for dealing with bullies, but it is very unpopular with many. When my sister was being bullied at school, I found out about it. He was well known as the school bully, and he pretty much picked on kids that were smaller than himself.

Well, I cornered the little bastard when he was trying to force my sister out into a busy street to get past him as she tried to walk home, and I gave him a hiding he would not soon forget. I warned him that if he so much as looked at my sister again, I would be around with a few schoolmates and we would finish the job.

That was 50 years ago, I was 15 my sister was 11, and that action would probably not go down well these days. It was, however, effective. Not only did he never bother sis again, he stopped being the school bully - lesson learned the hard way.
That's right! The way to teach people that threatening people with violence is wrong is to threaten them with violence.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:20 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have a method for dealing with bullies, but it is very unpopular with many. When my sister was being bullied at school, I found out about it. He was well known as the school bully, and he pretty much picked on kids that were smaller than himself.

Well, I cornered the little bastard when he was trying to force my sister out into a busy street to get past him as she tried to walk home, and I gave him a hiding he would not soon forget. I warned him that if he so much as looked at my sister again, I would be around with a few schoolmates and we would finish the job.

That was 50 years ago, I was 15 my sister was 11, and that action would probably not go down well these days. It was, however, effective. Not only did he never bother sis again, he stopped being the school bully - lesson learned the hard way.
I would be willing to bet that a hell of a lot of people being bullied do not have an older sibling or someone that could step in and defend them like that.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have a method for dealing with bullies, but it is very unpopular with many. When my sister was being bullied at school, I found out about it. He was well known as the school bully, and he pretty much picked on kids that were smaller than himself.

Well, I cornered the little bastard when he was trying to force my sister out into a busy street to get past him as she tried to walk home, and I gave him a hiding he would not soon forget. I warned him that if he so much as looked at my sister again, I would be around with a few schoolmates and we would finish the job.

That was 50 years ago, I was 15 my sister was 11, and that action would probably not go down well these days. It was, however, effective. Not only did he never bother sis again, he stopped being the school bully - lesson learned the hard way.
Exactly my point. We get these apocryphal anecdotes here and there. But somehow the world's sociologists, educators, and regulators can't figure out how to make your solution into policy.

Also your solution sounds a little too good to be true. Not all bullies are gonna be cured by a simple threat. And not all victims have a guardian who can threaten their bully.

I'm more interested in your explanation for why there is a worldwide inability to handle bullies systemically.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:58 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
That's right! The way to teach people that threatening people with violence is wrong is to threaten them with violence.
I wish that insight could be universalized--I believe as much as anyone that violence often begets violence, and should be used only as a last resort.

However I also believe there are some cases where the perpetrators cannot be taught a thing and the only remedy is to protect threatened victims as best you can, and specifically by making sure that the bully knows that initiating an attack is dangerous for themselves.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Exactly my point. We get these apocryphal anecdotes here and there. But somehow the world's sociologists, educators, and regulators can't figure out how to make your solution into policy.

Also your solution sounds a little too good to be true. Not all bullies are gonna be cured by a simple threat. And not all victims have a guardian who can threaten their bully.

I'm more interested in your explanation for why there is a worldwide inability to handle bullies systemically.
The Interior Minister for Finland, Maria Ohisalo (Green) is now going to bring out some kind of law.

Quote:
Minister of the Interior Maria Ohisalo (Green) says that she is deeply shocked by the homicide in Koskela, Helsinki , which involved a 16-year-old boy and three suspected boys of the same age. Ohisalo describes the act as shocking social peace.

- This should by no means happen in the welfare state. I have to ask what drives people to do such a shocking act. I extend my condolences to the relatives of the victim.

According to Ohisalo, in today’s society, many are doing better than ever before. At the same time, some are experiencing very serious problems.

- Bullying is, in the worst cases, a very criminal activity. We have already discussed this among ministers, and an action plan against loneliness and bullying is being prepared by the Ministry of Education and Culture.

Invest in multi-professional cooperation
Ohisalo says police resources have been steadily declining over the past decade until 2017.

- Now we have strengthened preventive and preventive work, a concrete example of which is the Anchor activity. Here, the police work in collaboration with social services, schools, youth work and health work.
YLE

It does sound like the 'we take this matter very seriously' -type of word salad we have come to expect any time there is a scandal anywhere.

Does youth work work? Heikki Juutinen is/was actually a youth footballer with KäPa
a Third Division professional Finnish Football Club, modelled on the English football league structure. One would have thought that sufficiently glamourous for a 16-year-old boy. A bright future ahead of him thrown away. There is little doubt of the boys' involvement, the only question is whether it is murder or a lesser verdict.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:42 AM   #16
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In my years of school, both US and Finland, I was only beaten once when I was 15. I got a bloody lip when two of the class bullies, both Jukka, ganged up on me on way home.

I went to high school for a few months on the North side of Chicago. I was very careful walking home, but I did see some gang activity. The school had no books, one teacher wrote the daily lesson on the board and we copied it. Luckily my dad's job moved to the suburbs then, so he was only happy to move us out, rent a rather plain apartment near Elmhurst. I had to use the school bus one semester. Back then the cliques were greasers and climbers. The greasers had the tough look, and interfered with people sitting on the bus seats, ordering them around. Freshman class. They would be the first to get cars, crappy ones, so that was that. I never saw them in any class.

But thinking back, the Finnish school was typical suburban school in East Helsinki. There was always a bit of violence in the school yard. The bullies had to be punished with an hour of sitting after school at the desk at least once a month. 1969.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:49 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All four 16-year-olds are described as 'Finns' - presumably to make clear it is not a 'hate' crime.
Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you seem awfully disappointed that it turned out the perpetrators were white.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 05:52 AM   #18
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It's just typical language the papers use. When the race or nationality of the people is NOT mentioned, the nationalists can then simply assume it was foreigners.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:12 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I would be willing to bet that a hell of a lot of people being bullied do not have an older sibling or someone that could step in and defend them like that.
That also is the tried and true method world wide. The older sibling always walked the younger home. I saw this in my Chicago 8th grade school. The few black kids in the school did that. I, as an only child, had to be very talkative on the way home from school and tag along with any small group for the first few blocks to see what the situation was that day.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I find interesting is that it seems like nobody - not parents, not educators, not sociologists, not regulators, not lawmakers - have any ******* clue how to deal with bullies.

The entire world seems to agree that the only real response to bullying is to just close your eyes and hope it doesn't get too bad.
Actually, my understanding is that we actually can and do do a lot to reduce bullying. It's just that what we do works very poorly with a) kids whose parents don't give a damn and b) ing psychos. Nobody really has a clue how to deal with ing psychos.

And Vixen, did we really need the names and pictures of everyone involved?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:33 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you seem awfully disappointed that it turned out the perpetrators were white.
You are misreading it.


Unfortunately, here in Europe, after any atrocity, the neo-nazi far right puts out fake claims the perp/s are 'Somali', which is a shame, as all the Somalis I have ever met have seemed really sweet-natured.

The police put an end to the speculation in this case by making that statement. One child expert interviewed by TURUN SANOMAT kept going on about immigration so you can see the assumptions people make, albeit unwittingly.

Sadly, there are a certain type of persons driven by political agenda, who try to stoke up hatred and negative attributes towards target groups.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:51 AM   #22
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Bullying is nothing new, of course. When I was at school in England, the physical type of bullying was more to do with the boys (pushing, kicking, playing 'tag' [grabbing the other's personal parts]), with girls it was a lot more sophisticated and consisted of exclusion. Girls would go around in ostentatious groups and could exercise bullying by denying other girls admission into their clique, or they'd fail to invite someone to a party. I do think this type of emotional cruelty is far more damaging psychologically than someone tripping you up in the hallway or shoving you out of the way. Perhaps. Maybe a sweeping generalisation.

AUIU the victim in this case was a very lonely child and his hanging around with people who clearly did not see him as an equal nor treated him with respect, was so desperate to have a peer group he played along in the subservient role accorded him by these bullies, who revelled in their dominance.

I note there was a lot of alcohol involved. There was a study some years ago that linked drinking alcohol to violent and uninhibited reckless behaviour in Finnish men, who were the only ones to have that particular gene. ISTM it is possible one or more of the perps may have had this gene...?

Quote:
The 'violent' gene: Genetic mutation found only in Finnish men that makes them fight

A genetic mutation that makes men impulsive and aggressive, especially when drunk, has been isolated in Finnish men.

Research on violent criminals in Finland has uncovered a genetic variant of a brain receptor molecule that contributes that makes people more likely to be aggressive when they have been drinking.

The findings could lead to a better understanding into why some people are more prone to sudden bouts of violence and to the treatment of violent offenders.

<snip>

A report of the findings appears in the December 23rd issue of Nature.

'Impulsivity, or action without foresight, is a factor in many pathological behaviours including suicide, aggression, and addiction,' says David Goldman chief of the Laboratory of Neurogenetics at the NIH's National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA).

<snip>


The findings could lead to a better understanding into why some people are more prone to sudden bouts of violence and to the treatment of violent offenders.

Incredibly, the gene is only found in men from Finland and so cannot explain similar behaviour in other countries such as the UK.

'But it is also a trait that can be of value if a quick decision must be made or in situations where risk-taking is favoured.'

In collaboration with researchers in Finland and France, Dr. Goldman and colleagues studied a sample of violent criminal offenders in Finland.

The hallmark of the violent crimes committed by individuals in the study sample was that they were spontaneous and purposeless.

'We conducted this study in Finland because of its unique population history and medical genetics,' says Dr. Goldman.

'Modern Finns are descended from a relatively small number of original settlers, which has reduced the genetic complexity of diseases in that country.

‘Studying the genetics of violent criminal offenders within Finland increased our chances of finding genes that influence impulsive behaviour.'
Certainly alcohol and other drugs are known to have a disinhibiting effect on the nervous system and therefore, behaviour.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 08:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Actually, my understanding is that we actually can and do do a lot to reduce bullying. It's just that what we do works very poorly with a) kids whose parents don't give a damn and b) ing psychos. Nobody really has a clue how to deal with ing psychos.

And Vixen, did we really need the names and pictures of everyone involved?
In many of these types of killings there is parental neglect to be found in the background (Mary Bell, Venables & Thompson). However, there is usually one ringleader and in cases like this, it can be very hard to unravel how much each boy is responsible for their acts Two claim the third, Veeti, also was violent towards them; two seem to come from good homes and were well-liked by their peer group. One seems to have been the angry 'rebel without a cause' outsider. Police believe the two boys are simply trying to pin it on the other but no doubt the dynamics of group crime are more complex than meets the eye.

The identities appear to be in the public domain anyway and the prosecutors want them published, as in the Kuopio school killing, due to the depravity involved, according to TS.

Quote:
The Kuopio school stabbing occurred on 1 October 2019 at Savo Vocational College in Kuopio, Northern Savonia, Finland. Armed with a sabre, 25-year-old student Joel Otto Aukusti Marin killed a female student and wounded nine others. He also carried an air pistol which was not used during the attack; it was initially mistaken for a real firearm. The attack ended when a policeman shot and wounded Marin.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 11:20 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I find interesting is that it seems like nobody - not parents, not educators, not sociologists, not regulators, not lawmakers - have any ******* clue how to deal with bullies.

The entire world seems to agree that the only real response to bullying is to just close your eyes and hope it doesn't get too bad.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Slightly an aside, but three murdering psychos just happened to find each other in the same school? Sounds like they are not as rare as we often assume, and the bastards are everywhere. Maybe sitting near you right now. Maybe a few of them.

Also, 12k Euros for murdering a child? There's a bigger payout for a slip and fall in a commercial establishment in the States, paid out as a nuicance settlement to avoid the cost of litigation.

From childhood on, people learn what they can, and cannot, get away with. Boundaries and limits are explored, and consequences–if any & the severity–of their actions, are learned.

There's a range of bad actions; some bad actions are on a lesser-scale, and some on a grander-scale. But the issue is, there's a lot of people who are mean, and/or cruel, and/or selfish. I don't know what that number is, or how to quantify how many, or what percentage, of the population is mean/cruel/selfish.

Some people develop problematic behaviors, and may relish whatever it is they get from their meanness, and/or cruelty, and/or selfishness.

Someone can inflict harm on an individual. Someone can inflict harm on many people. Some of the people who inflict harm can be one part, of any number of other people who form and aggregate of harmers. People who harm may be a family member, or someone in a position of trust, or power. They likely don't want to be found out, or held accountable. They (typically) desire and need to protect themselves from being caught, from being held accountable.

Don't look for abuse, or harm, to stop:

Some of the people in power might include those in the financial service industry, legal profession, law enforcement, or, ANY profession, service, or personal connection. They may be socially, industry-related, and/or politically connected.

Carla F. Bad

Carla F. Bad is a "readily memorized acronym that reminds investigators of just what to investigate when looking into someone’s background," wrote retired FBI supervisory special agent James A. Gagliano, CNN law enforcement analyst, and adjunct assistant professor at St. John’s University in Queens, New York. [1]

The acronym represents character, associates, reputation, loyalty, ability, finances, bias, alcohol and drugs.

While James A. Gagliano's article mentions how investigators might look into someone's background, his article doesn't address (nor was it intended to address) the number of people who commit harm; either an individual (one-off) act, or multiple acts, of harm.

Daily news, word of mouth, and court cases, are some ways to see that there are a lot of people who harm others.

Source:
1. Gagliano, James A. "If FBI investigated allegation against Kavanaugh, here's what it would do." CNN.com. September 25, 2018. https: //www .cnn.com/2018/09/24/opinions/kavanaugh-fbi-investigation-process-gagliano/index.html Accessed 22 Feb 2021.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 11:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
That's right! The way to teach people that threatening people with violence is wrong is to threaten them with violence.

Shame that was your takeaway.. you entirely missed the point.

Bullies generally need to be on the receiving end of what they dish out - if the only thing they understand is violence, then violence is the only thing they will understand.

In my case, I protected my sister from an immediate threat to her safety. The bully was blocking the footpath and whenever she tried to get past him, he would push her out into the traffic of a very busy road. What would you have me do... appeal to his better angel, talk him to death?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 11:52 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Shame that was your takeaway.. you entirely missed the point.

Bullies generally need to be on the receiving end of what they dish out - if the only thing they understand is violence, then violence is the only thing they will understand.

In my case, I protected my sister from an immediate threat to her safety. The bully was blocking the footpath and whenever she tried to get past him, he would push her out into the traffic of a very busy road. What would you have me do... appeal to his better angel, talk him to death?
While your point is valid, that sometimes emergent violent action is necessary to mitigate an immediate threat, what do you think was the bully's takeaway? I'd guess he thought that "the highest level of violence wins". Probably counterproductive in the overall, no? If he is the industrious sort, he has just been incentivised to be the most violent on the block to get his way.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 12:01 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Shame that was your takeaway.. you entirely missed the point.

Bullies generally need to be on the receiving end of what they dish out - if the only thing they understand is violence, then violence is the only thing they will understand.

In my case, I protected my sister from an immediate threat to her safety. The bully was blocking the footpath and whenever she tried to get past him, he would push her out into the traffic of a very busy road. What would you have me do... appeal to his better angel, talk him to death?

You did well. Bullies need to be taught that their actions have consequences. The consequences must be tailored to the actions of the bully. Sometimes there is a small window of opportunity to delve into the assessment and counselling aspects of behaviour modification while other times the timing and circumstances do not allow for this.
Since your sister was in immediate danger you did the right thing.
Your sister did not suffer harm. The bully got taught a very good lesson about how his actions caused consequences in the form the pain and humiliation of a good thrashing; and, he was assured that his actions would be monitored and he could expect further negative consequences for bad behaviour.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 12:04 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
While your point is valid, that sometimes emergent violent action is necessary to mitigate an immediate threat, what do you think was the bully's takeaway? I'd guess he thought that "the highest level of violence wins". Probably counterproductive in the overall, no? If he is the industrious sort, he has just been incentivised to be the most violent on the block to get his way.
He most likely learned that day that he was NOT the most violent on the block and that his actions would have seriously negative consequences if he tried.
The pleasure versus pain equation is understood by even the most dimwitted.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 12:28 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are misreading it.


Unfortunately, here in Europe, after any atrocity, the neo-nazi far right puts out fake claims the perp/s are 'Somali', which is a shame, as all the Somalis I have ever met have seemed really sweet-natured.

The police put an end to the speculation in this case by making that statement. One child expert interviewed by TURUN SANOMAT kept going on about immigration so you can see the assumptions people make, albeit unwittingly.

Sadly, there are a certain type of persons driven by political agenda, who try to stoke up hatred and negative attributes towards target groups.
Apologies. You are, unfortunately, very correct that the most racist would assume any act of violence was perpetrated by the non-white population unless it was specified.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 01:57 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
He most likely learned that day that he was NOT the most violent on the block and that his actions would have seriously negative consequences if he tried.
The pleasure versus pain equation is understood by even the most dimwitted.
Did he though? Or did he simply take his violence else-where? I simply don't believe a beat-down stops a bully from being a bully.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 02:15 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Did he though? Or did he simply take his violence else-where? I simply don't believe a beat-down stops a bully from being a bully.
A threatened beat-down. Did our 15 year old guardian angel actually follow the bully around and make sure he never victimized another kid? Or did some other 11 year old get to discover what life is like when you don't have an older brother threatening fisticuffs on your behalf?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 02:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Did he though? Or did he simply take his violence else-where? I simply don't believe a beat-down stops a bully from being a bully.
There is no way to deal with this other than one case at a time. Like any other villainous element in society they will continue their actions when they think they can get away with it. Or, the benefit they get is outweighed by the consequences. In other words - they will only stop when they have to.
Unless, perhaps, you have a solution?
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Old 22nd February 2021, 02:32 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A threatened beat-down. Did our 15 year old guardian angel actually follow the bully around and make sure he never victimized another kid? Or did some other 11 year old get to discover what life is like when you don't have an older brother threatening fisticuffs on your behalf?
Hopefully the bully at last found out that there were consequences to his actions. However, like I posted above, you can only deal with one case at a time.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 04:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A threatened beat-down. Did our 15 year old guardian angel actually follow the bully around and make sure he never victimized another kid? Or did some other 11 year old get to discover what life is like when you don't have an older brother threatening fisticuffs on your behalf?
The bully is now a local real-estate agent...

Make of that what you will!
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:30 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
While your point is valid, that sometimes emergent violent action is necessary to mitigate an immediate threat, what do you think was the bully's takeaway? I'd guess he thought that "the highest level of violence wins". Probably counterproductive in the overall, no? If he is the industrious sort, he has just been incentivised to be the most violent on the block to get his way.
That seems like a rather sophisticated message to take away (and one just justified by the limited data he has anyway). I suspect his much less philosophical take away was "don't mess with that girl", or potentially "don't mess with people".

I experienced an intermediate amount of bullying growing up, and responded to it in a few ways. When I was in 1st to 3rd grade there was a kid who would beat me up every time he could get alone with me, probably because I was the smallest kid in our grade. I have a pretty distinct memory of him grabbing me by the hair swinging me against a wall one time when I ran into him in the bathroom. I'd then tell my friends and a group of us would get revenge, but then the next time he found me alone he'd just do it again. That didn't work out for me. So it seems Smartcookie's method doesn't always work. Later I tried befriending him, and I became his best friend. He stopped beating me up, but I was still always afraid of him.

Another time, in sixth grade, a kid told me he was going to give me a beating. I had no idea why. I never really interacted with him. First I talked to our mutual friends, but they didn't want to get involved. He started following me around the playground. I was sort of terrified. One day while he was following me I just stopped and turned around and tackled him. I held him down and yelled "What is your problem!" In his face. After that he never bothered me again and we always treated each other with mutual respect.

When I got to junior high it was more pyschological bullying. I remember having nightmares most nights in 7th grade because every day in one of my classes the kids sitting next to me would spend the whole class making fun of me. That lasted until I got out of that class. I was an awkward kid and didn't have the wit to give back as much as I was getting so they really had no motivation to stop. There were other similar times, but that was the worst. I can't really think of anything I've experienced in my life that was worse than that.

I think I had it worse than most but much better than some. In a class of 30 kids there were probably three or four others who had it worse than I did. Having experienced it myself, I tried to stop bullying when I saw it. So, for instance when kids were playing "keep away" with someone's books or toy I'd just go over and give it back, or confront the bully with straight questions "why are you trying to make him cry?" Which would usually get them to stop. But that doesn't work if the victim says it.

Nevertheless there was one kid who, to my continued shame and regret, I never intervened for. He was terrorized every day. The only thing I can say is I didn't participate. I was scared of being a target. 30 years later I still feel sorry for that kid. Even the teachers didn't stand up for him (the kids would throw things at him, then during the ruckus would blame him for it, and usually the teachers would go along with that). It's hard to imagine that they couldn't see what was going on. He went to a different junior high school than I did and I always hoped things got better for him after entering a new peer group.

I have to agree with theprestige: it'd be nice to know of some effective way of dealing with bullies.
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Old 22nd February 2021, 06:44 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
...

And Vixen, did we really need the names and pictures of everyone involved?
I was curious to see what they looked like, actually. So yes. And why would it matter if people on this forum knew the kids' names and faces?

Re intervention, that 'orphanage' needs some serious investigation as does the school and whatever social workers might have been involved in previous incidents.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 02:37 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was curious to see what they looked like, actually. So yes. And why would it matter if people on this forum knew the kids' names and faces?

Re intervention, that 'orphanage' needs some serious investigation as does the school and whatever social workers might have been involved in previous incidents.
I was shocked by how young they looked. We forget how childlike many sixteen-year-olds still are - one was just turning sixteen on the day of the crime - and it is appalling that they are being indicted for murder aggravated by beatings and torture. The suspect named as A. seems to have become obese and has adopted a weird hairstyle - as is the wont of teenagers - and who knows what stürm und drangst they might have been going through at home and in general, with nothing to do but hang out at the local park.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
There is no way to deal with this other than one case at a time. Like any other villainous element in society they will continue their actions when they think they can get away with it. Or, the benefit they get is outweighed by the consequences. In other words - they will only stop when they have to.
Unless, perhaps, you have a solution?
I don't have a solution, no. This is why we have child and family experts. I'm pretty confident that giving the bully a slap doesn't stop him being a bully though.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:10 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
I don't have a solution, no. This is why we have child and family experts. I'm pretty confident that giving the bully a slap doesn't stop him being a bully though.
Do we have any experts who are actually capable of lowering rates of bullying?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:15 AM   #40
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I'd say that's likely--or at least that claim levels of success. I can't say I've scrutinized their figures or measurement methods.
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