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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 16th June 2017, 02:58 PM   #2361
dudalb
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And even Trump,once in a great while,does something intelligent:
He hired a criminal attorney today.
If the guy was smart, he insisted on a huge retainer being paid in advance, given Trump's history of trying to get out of paying his legal bills.
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:00 PM   #2362
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And even Trump,once in a great while,does something intelligent:
He hired a criminal attorney today.
If the guy was smart, he insisted on a huge retainer being paid in advance, given Trump's history of trying to get out of paying his legalany bills.
I hope my fix helps.
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:06 PM   #2363
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I hope my fix helps.
I stand corrected.
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Old 16th June 2017, 04:30 PM   #2364
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You seemed to be saying someone thinks Pence is guilty of something.
Not specifically; it's just that this sort of behaviour is very common, even here.
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Old 16th June 2017, 04:38 PM   #2365
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes but that is a rational calculation. I would be willing to believe that is the thinking of the party, but there is every evidence that Trump hates even the appearance of losing.

It directly attacks Trump in the ego.

As a result such a calculation could still backfire on the GOP Reprentatives and Senators as Trump will start wanting revenge.
I think this will be way down a very long list for Trump. I think it's a little like Comey's contemporaneous memos : there to point to should the need to insulate themselves arise. Until then I doubt we'll hear any more about it..
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Old 16th June 2017, 05:01 PM   #2366
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And even Trump,once in a great while,does something intelligent:
He hired a criminal attorney today.
If the guy was smart, he insisted on a huge retainer being paid in advance, given Trump's history of trying to get out of paying his legal bills.
I initially read "criminal attorney" the wrong way. I think.
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Old 16th June 2017, 05:12 PM   #2367
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Is he talking about DAG Rosenstein?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ef635f2a72.jpg

At least Trump won't have to waste any more of his time trying to convince people to report to the public that he is not under investigation. Taking a look back.

Quote:
Comey told Trump 3 times that he wasn't under investigation, but his refusal to publicly say so infuriated Trump

http://www.businessinsider.com/comey...igation-2017-6
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Old 16th June 2017, 05:50 PM   #2368
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Russia aside, this is poor logic. It allows for no possibility except guilty. Either they admit to guilt or they are lying, and their denial is proof of their guilt.

The Russians have made their mark for the whole world to see. So once again, if the Russians denied they were involved, that's proof enough they were. Their initial denial regarding the downing of Korean 007, which involved me and my aircraft in recovery operations, their explanation of the downing of MH-17, Crimea, Ukraine, etc., are prime examples.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 16th June 2017 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:48 PM   #2369
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Old 16th June 2017, 07:29 PM   #2370
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I love this one part way down the page:
Quote:
WASHINGTON—In the wake of this morning’s mass shooting in Alexandria, VA, every single American from across the political spectrum was reportedly able to cite the tragedy as irrefutable proof that they had been right about everything all along.
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Old 16th June 2017, 09:02 PM   #2371
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am getting bored with this whole "I am not defending Trump but"...routine. Wonder if there is anything I can do about it.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove reference to ignore list. Please do not discuss your ignore list in-thread; it is a breach of rule 0, rule 11 and rule 12. Thank you.
If that was a response to Emily's Cat... I was tempted to say much the same. I let it off with an eyeroll, though, when I read it.

Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
The Russians have made their mark for the whole world to see. So once again, if the Russians denied they were involved, that's proof enough they were. Their initial denial regarding the downing of Korean 007, which involved me and my aircraft in recovery operations, their explanation of the downing of MH-17, Crimea, Ukraine, etc., are prime examples.
No. The more logical takeaway is that a Russian denial means effectively nothing. It does not indicate that they were involved. It's all the actual evidence, if such exists, that they were involved that would count as proof that they were.
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Old 16th June 2017, 11:29 PM   #2372
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
No. The more logical takeaway is that a Russian denial means effectively nothing. It does not indicate that they were involved. It's all the actual evidence, if such exists, that they were involved that would count as proof that they were.

It is just a matter of looking back into history to understand where I am coming from, but most of all, it's all in the Russian doctrine; maskirovka
Not knowing your enemy can have serious consequences. Apparently, Trump doesn't realize this and he is putting US national security in jeopardy.

.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 16th June 2017 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 17th June 2017, 01:07 AM   #2373
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
It is just a matter of looking back into history to understand where I am coming from, but most of all, it's all in the Russian doctrine; maskirovka
Not knowing your enemy can have serious consequences. Apparently, Trump doesn't realize this and he is putting US national security in jeopardy.

.
I'm not going to dispute where you're coming from. The argument that you had actually presented was simply flawed. *shrug* As for Trump putting the US' national security in jeopardy... really, he's doing that on many fronts and in many ways. Let's move past Russia and how he seems intent on sucking up to them for a moment. He's been choosing to handle things in ways that make terrorist attacks notably more likely from various kinds of groups inside and outside the country. He's practically been asking for certain kinds of terrorist attacks to happen, no less, so he can gloat loudly about how his Muslim ban should have been in place. He's been pointedly provoking unfriendly countries, especially ones like North Korea. He's been pushing away many of those who we have alliances and intelligence sharing agreements with, like the Europeans and Israel. He's been alienating those that have been working with us, like Qatar. He's been just giving away classified military information to foreigners who have no problem leaking it, and seemingly without getting anything at all in return on top of it to make it even less justifiable. Even on a more bureaucratic front, he's done so badly at even nominating people to fill the holes left that that can undermine efforts of various kinds in many, many ways.

In short, yes, Trump is putting our national security at risk. What you're pointing out is something of a drop in the bucket, though.
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:16 AM   #2374
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I initially read "criminal attorney" the wrong way. I think.

Probably not.

I expect your first reaction would be appropriate for the kind of attorney that would be sleazy enough and desperate enough to take Trump as a client in criminal court.

Definitely gonna be one who gets paid on retainer and stops if it runs out.
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Old 18th June 2017, 06:51 AM   #2375
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Pro-Russian Lobbyist Is Lurking Around the White House

Quote:
Rick Gates, the longtime lobbying partner of ousted Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, is still making multiple visits to the White House—even though the Trump administration has sought to distance itself from Manafort.

Manafort may be under investigation for alleged Russia ties, and thus persona non grata at the Trump White House. However, his top deputy Gates—who also worked on behalf of Russian interests—has managed to wedge himself back into Trump-world. having landed a sweet new gig with one of President Donald Trump’s best and wealthiest friends.

After leaving the Trump-boosting nonprofit America First Policies in March—as former FBI Director James Comey officially announced an investigation into alleged ties between the Trump campaign team and Russian officials—Gates is now working directly for Tom Barrack, according to eight sources in and around the Trump White House.

Barrack, a millionaire and former Trump fundraiser who went on to lead the presidential inaugural committee, is a longtime friend of the president who still sends Trump friendly emails to remind him that, “YOU ROCK!” The Trump ally was also instrumental in bringing Manafort into Trump’s political orbit during the campaign.
No wonder the administration is upset with the new sanctions passed by the Senate.
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:52 AM   #2376
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I really want there to be a perfectly reasonable explanation for the incident. I wish I could think of one.
The news these days does seem to be one barely-credible tragic fiasco after another.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:02 PM   #2377
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.
The Trump administration is a threat to US national security.

Quote:
Putin sees chance under Trump to 'crack the NATO alliance': Former US ambassador to NATO

The former U.S. ambassador to NATO said the unpredictability of the Trump administration may open opportunities for opponents.

"This sort of unpredictability over the first five months of this administration possibly opens potential opportunities for opponents," Douglas Lute, former U.S. representative to NATO under President Obama, said in an interview on "This Week" Sunday. "Here, I think, Russia, in particular."

Asked by "This Week" co-anchor Martha Raddatz what Russian President Vladimir Putin thinks when he hears President Trump talk about Russia, Lute said Putin sees the chance to "crack the NATO alliance."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/putin...ry?id=48106001
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:40 PM   #2378
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Which is why the Senate sent Trump that little message about sanctions last week.......a shot across the bow.
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Old 18th June 2017, 03:32 PM   #2379
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Flynn got $45,000 to appear at RT dinner.

Quote:
In December 2015, Mr. Flynn traveled to Moscow for a paid speaking engagement on behalf of RT, the Kremlin-financed news network that American intelligence agencies say is a Russian propaganda outlet. RT paid Mr. Flynn $45,000 for the trip, which also included an invitation to a lavish anniversary party for the network, where he was photographed sitting at the elbow of President Vladimir V. Putin.

The three payments from Russian companies are among the issues being investigated by Robert S. Mueller III, the special counsel leading the Justice Department inquiry.

Mr. Flynn believed that Moscow could be cultivated as an ally against Islamist militants. As director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, he had even visited the headquarters of the G.R.U., the Russian military intelligence service.
I wonder how much they paid Jill Stein who was seated at the same table along with Putin.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:40 AM   #2380
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Originally Posted by quadraginta
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I initially read "criminal attorney" the wrong way. I think.

Probably not.

I expect your first reaction would be appropriate for the kind of attorney that would be sleazy enough and desperate enough to take Trump as a client in criminal court.

Definitely gonna be one who gets paid on retainer and stops if it runs out.
Considering that the criminal lawyer is Jay Seklow, Trebuchet's first reaction is most likely correct.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:09 AM   #2381
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Flynn got $45,000 to appear at RT dinner.



I wonder how much they paid Jill Stein who was seated at the same table along with Putin.
I'm curious about this post.

Is this a mild case of "Whataboutism?"

Did Dr. Stein disclose this meeting?
Did she not?
Did she have to disclose it?

I truly don't know.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:06 PM   #2382
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
The Russians have made their mark for the whole world to see. So once again, if the Russians denied they were involved, that's proof enough they were. Their initial denial regarding the downing of Korean 007, which involved me and my aircraft in recovery operations, their explanation of the downing of MH-17, Crimea, Ukraine, etc., are prime examples.
This doesn't change my assessment that this is poor logic.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:08 PM   #2383
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
No. The more logical takeaway is that a Russian denial means effectively nothing. It does not indicate that they were involved. It's all the actual evidence, if such exists, that they were involved that would count as proof that they were.
Exactly.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:14 PM   #2384
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Pro-Russian Lobbyist Is Lurking Around the White House



No wonder the administration is upset with the new sanctions passed by the Senate.
How far off from blacklisting people are we?

McCarthyism
Quote:
McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of subversion or treason without proper regard for evidence.
Just substitute "collusion" for "treason", and replace any reference to "Communism" with "Russian".
Quote:
McCarthyism soon took on a broader meaning, describing the excesses of similar efforts. The term is also now used more generally to describe reckless, unsubstantiated accusations, as well as demagogic attacks on the character or patriotism of political adversaries. During the McCarthy era, thousands of Americans were accused of being communists or communist sympathizers and became the subject of aggressive investigations and questioning before government or private-industry panels, committees and agencies. The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, educators and union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was often greatly exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment or destruction of their careers; some even suffered imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts later overturned,[3] laws that were later declared unconstitutional,[4] dismissals for reasons later declared illegal[5] or actionable,[6] or extra-legal procedures that would come into general disrepute.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:19 PM   #2385
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I'm curious about this post.

Is this a mild case of "Whataboutism?"

Did Dr. Stein disclose this meeting?
Did she not?
Did she have to disclose it?

I truly don't know.
Additional question: Did anybody ask her about it, or did nobody care, because she's not on the "wrong" side politically?
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:19 PM   #2386
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How far off from blacklisting people are we?

McCarthyism


Just substitute "collusion" for "treason", and replace any reference to "Communism" with "Russian".
Nice strawman. We're allowed to pay attention to the man behind the curtain even if you don't like it.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:21 PM   #2387
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Originally Posted by C_Felix View Post
I'm curious about this post.

Is this a mild case of "Whataboutism?"

Did Dr. Stein disclose this meeting?
Did she not?
Did she have to disclose it?

I truly don't know.
Stein would not have had to disclose the meeting unless she was being paid as an agent of Russia and then there is a form needed. You don't need a security clearance unless you are going to be shown classified material.

The Photo That May Help Unlock the Trump-Russia Scandal
Quote:
Little noticed at the time, Vladimir Putin’s guests that night included Flynn and future Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein—an odd couple who reflected the Russian president’s efforts to court fringe figures on both the right and the left and otherwise meddle in US politics. (Also at the table were Putin’s spokesman, chief of staff, and deputy chief of staff.)

Stein said the soiree was “a great opportunity to lay out some of my foreign policy proposals and get Russian reactions to them.”
Apparently she wasn't savvy enough to garner a fee. I wonder who paid for her trip, though, her campaign donors?

[/sidetrack] At least it's a sidetrack as far as we know at the moment. But I think Putin courting other candidates besides Trump is at least a tad significant. I think it's also significant that with Stein there, it suggests that Flynn was there on Trump's behalf.

The dinner date: December 2015.

Flynn Wiki
Quote:
Having already been consulted regarding national security by Fiorina as well as other candidates, including Scott Walker, Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, and Donald Trump,[59] Flynn was asked in February 2016 to serve as an adviser to the Trump campaign.[60]
It is unlikely that Trump only contacted Flynn after the dinner. But there is plausible deniability since Trump was not yet the nominee. That would make Flynn freelancing at that point.

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Old 19th June 2017, 12:32 PM   #2388
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How far off from blacklisting people are we?

McCarthyism

Just substitute "collusion" for "treason", and replace any reference to "Communism" with "Russian".
That is indeed one damn fine strawman you're beating the stuffing out of.

Blacklisting? McCarthyism? Apply your own standard of skepticism, the one you keep lecturing us about, to your characterization.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:34 PM   #2389
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Stein would not have had to disclose the meeting unless she was being paid as an agent of Russia and then there is a form needed. You don't need a security clearance unless you are going to be shown classified material.

The Photo That May Help Unlock the Trump-Russia ScandalApparently she wasn't savvy enough to garner a fee. I wonder who paid for her trip, though, her campaign donors?

[/sidetrack] At least it's a sidetrack as far as we know at the moment. But I think Putin courting other candidates besides Trump is at least a tad significant. I think it's also significant that with Stein there, it suggests that Flynn was there on Trump's behalf.

The dinner date: December 2015.

Flynn Wiki
It is unlikely that Trump only contacted Flynn after the dinner. But there is plausible deniability since Trump was not yet the nominee. That would make Flynn freelancing at that point.
Why would Stein being there suggest that Flynn was there on Trump's behalf?
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:42 PM   #2390
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Pro-Russian Lobbyist Is Lurking Around the White House

Quote:
...a sweet new gig with one of President Donald Trump’s best and wealthiest friends.
No wonder the administration is upset with the new sanctions passed by the Senate.
I thought the narrative was that Trump has no friends. Now this guy is one of his best friends... So confusing to know what I'm supposed to believe.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:56 PM   #2391
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This doesn't change my assessment that this is poor logic.

What you think is poor logic simply means that you have yet to face up to reality. I am well aware of Russian doctrine based on what I was taught during my "Rumors and Propaganda" course and what I have experienced in the field in regard to Russian doctrine and once again, I experienced Russian use of that doctrine in an incident for which I was called upon to provide support. It seems the Russians were unaware of the data was collected on the incident at the time when they denied involvement. Faced with the facts, the Russians had no choice but to admit to their involvement in the incident. With Putin at the helm, it's business as usual and let's not forget that Putin was a KGB agent who burned KGB files when the Berlin Wall fell.

You have to understand that Putin is not a friend of the United States and thanks to Putin, he has been making Trump look like the idiot that he is, which is not good for America.

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Old 19th June 2017, 01:05 PM   #2392
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
What you think is poor logic simply means that you have yet to face up to reality. I am well aware of Russian doctrine based on what I was taught during my "Rumors and Propaganda" course and what I have experienced in the field in regard to Russian doctrine and once again, I experienced Russian use of that doctrine in an incident for which I was called upon to provide support. It seems the Russians were unaware of the data was collected on the incident at the time when they denied involvement. Faced with the facts, the Russians had no choice but to admit to their involvement in the incident. With Putin at the helm, it's business as usual and let's not forget that Putin was a KGB agent who burned KGB files when the Berlin Wall fell.
Did your "Rumors and Propaganda" class teach you about all of the things that America is engaged in, with respect to those topics?

Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
You have to understand that Putin is not a friend of the United States and thanks to Putin, he has been making Trump look like the idiot that he is, which is not good for America.
No foreign entity is a "friend" of the US. They are allies only so far as it benefits them to be so. Exactly the same as we are to them.

And Putin hasn't been making Trump look bad - Trump has been making Trump look bad. Seriously, if Russia wants to destroy American democracy, pretty sure all they have to do is sit back and laugh - we're happily accomplishing their goals all by ourselves. Do you think the political strife among citizens that is now rampant and frighteningly vehement won't have an impact?

For all of my life, there have been political disagreements and ideological schisms. This is the first time I've ever been concerned that open rebellion and civil war might be plausible. And it's not the congress-critters I'm worried about - it's everyday people on the streets and the interwebs. It's the concerted effort to deny the rights of others on the basis of belief. Don't like what someone has to say? No problem - just threaten violence, throw a few rocks, and you'll get your way! Go ahead and silence political opposition, that's totally the way to win!
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:59 PM   #2393
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
No foreign entity is a "friend" of the US.
Aw come on. We've put so much effort into our relationship, eh.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:28 PM   #2394
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Did your "Rumors and Propaganda" class teach you about all of the things that America is engaged in, with respect to those topics?


No foreign entity is a "friend" of the US. They are allies only so far as it benefits them to be so. Exactly the same as we are to them.

And Putin hasn't been making Trump look bad - Trump has been making Trump look bad. Seriously, if Russia wants to destroy American democracy, pretty sure all they have to do is sit back and laugh - we're happily accomplishing their goals all by ourselves. Do you think the political strife among citizens that is now rampant and frighteningly vehement won't have an impact?

For all of my life, there have been political disagreements and ideological schisms. This is the first time I've ever been concerned that open rebellion and civil war might be plausible. And it's not the congress-critters I'm worried about - it's everyday people on the streets and the interwebs. It's the concerted effort to deny the rights of others on the basis of belief. Don't like what someone has to say? No problem - just threaten violence, throw a few rocks, and you'll get your way! Go ahead and silence political opposition, that's totally the way to win!
Threatening violence, throwing a few rocks, et al, are nothing new. That sort of attitude has been common among conservatives, including the Southern Democrats that Nixon courted, for decades. Have you never heard of lynching? The KKK?

I find it depressing how so many conservatives have suddenly decided how scary and violent rhetoric and actions are bad after the baseball shooting, but these same folks have turned a blind eye to the Ted Nugent's, Gabby Gifford's shooter, etc, of the world. Decades of violent talk and action had even our current president advocating murder of his opponent (2nd amendment solution) and it was fine, but now that one "lefty" joins in, the Pearl clutching begins.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:49 PM   #2395
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It is unlikely that Trump only contacted Flynn after the dinner. But there is plausible deniability since Trump was not yet the nominee. That would make Flynn freelancing at that point.
This points to something I've mentioned before : what passes for Trump's circle has myriad connections to Russian business and politics for entirely unrelated reasons, dating back to the 90's. He depends on them being open about it if he's not to be tarred by association, and Flynn's let him down already. (This is not to suggest that Trump knows he depends on them or has the faintest clue what's going on at any point in time, of course. He doesn't know how dirty his associates tend to be, nor would he understand what they actually got up to.)

The direct danger to Trump, I strongly suspect, is to be found in Russian money-laundering through the Western high-end property market. If the Gods still love poetry, that's the way it will go.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:50 PM   #2396
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Threatening violence, throwing a few rocks, et al, are nothing new. That sort of attitude has been common among conservatives, including the Southern Democrats that Nixon courted, for decades. Have you never heard of lynching? The KKK?

I find it depressing how so many conservatives have suddenly decided how scary and violent rhetoric and actions are bad after the baseball shooting, but these same folks have turned a blind eye to the Ted Nugent's, Gabby Gifford's shooter, etc, of the world. Decades of violent talk and action had even our current president advocating murder of his opponent (2nd amendment solution) and it was fine, but now that one "lefty" joins in, the Pearl clutching begins.
I agree there is a massive amount of hypocrisy on the right about his issue, but it is not like the left does not have a history of violent rhetoric and justifying violence .
Rembemer Jesse Jackson and "No Justice, No Peace?"
among others? It's equally disgusting coming from either side.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:04 PM   #2397
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I find it depressing how so many conservatives have suddenly decided how scary and violent rhetoric and actions are bad after the baseball shooting, but these same folks have turned a blind eye to the Ted Nugent's, Gabby Gifford's shooter, etc, of the world. Decades of violent talk and action had even our current president advocating murder of his opponent (2nd amendment solution) and it was fine, but now that one "lefty" joins in, the Pearl clutching begins.
I find it quite jaw-dropping, given what they've not complained about going back to the radio shock-jocks they happily associated with in the 90's, let alone what went on in the Obama period.

It is, without question, the GOP which has degraded US politics and political discourse, and quite deliberately.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:14 PM   #2398
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I agree there is a massive amount of hypocrisy on the right about his issue, but it is not like the left does not have a history of violent rhetoric and justifying violence .
Rembemer Jesse Jackson and "No Justice, No Peace?"
among others? It's equally disgusting coming from either side.
Remember Jesse Jackson became part of the solution, just as Gerry Adams did in Northern Ireland, and frankly without justice there is no peace - see Israel.

The left does have a history of violent rhetoric, but it has always been on the offense against established positions, and that's when rhetoric laced with violence is most called for.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:20 PM   #2399
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Aw come on. We've put so much effort into our relationship, eh.
Luckily for you we Brits are calling it quits with Europe so we're open to that Commonwealth thing again.

I say open to, I mean kinda desperate for ...
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:51 PM   #2400
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I thought the narrative was that Trump has no friends. Now this guy is one of his best friends... So confusing to know what I'm supposed to believe.
Trump has all the friends he can buy.
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