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Old 15th June 2017, 10:33 AM   #1841
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Anyone that relied on the media to inform them was uninformed.

I still haven't found one positive thing about the UK leaving the EU. If that's the case, and I challenge you to find something positive, and what was termed 'project fear' is proving to be accurate then yes, people that voted to leave voted on the back of poor or inco0mplete information.
What do you mean?

We are able to enact immigration legislation that Trump would be proud of, roll back ECHR protections to whatever third world level we like and according to our new environment minister we can scale back those restrictions to the same level as India. What's not to like?
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Old 16th June 2017, 01:52 AM   #1842
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Some Brexit good news at last, Prince Andrew the Duke of York has advised businesses to take advantage of new business opportunities outside the EU.

Of course there's no indication why advances made post-Brexit will be any better received or why EU membership stopped these advances being made in the past. IMO it's more a case of UK businesses having to do business elsewhere - with no indication whether that business will be profitable.

Quote:
"We've been concentrating on 27 countries, if you take that as an internal market.

"There's an external market that's a lot bigger, and many businesses hadn't looked over that garden fence to some extent.

"And in my experience recently, businesses that look over the garden fence have gone: "Hmm, [the] grass is not quite as dark and unforgiving as you might expect.
Stirring words indeed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40296649
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:27 AM   #1843
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The UK has apparently reversed it's position and agreed to go with the EU timetable:

Originally Posted by BBC
The UK has agreed to sort out its EU "divorce bill" and citizens' residence rights before starting Brexit trade talks, EU sources have told the BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

Seems that the EU is a bit more prepared than the UK...
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:30 AM   #1844
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The UK has apparently reversed it's position and agreed to go with the EU timetable:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

Seems that the EU is a bit more prepared than the UK...

I'm shocked, I tells you.

All those that planned the leaving who then wanted those who wanted to remain to sort it all out for them were *********** incompetent liars in the first place. I would no more expect them to have a viable plan now than I did a year ago.

Cockwombles.
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Old 16th June 2017, 06:52 AM   #1845
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
The UK has apparently reversed it's position and agreed to go with the EU timetable:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761...
The content of that BBC article doesn't support the claim you are making, and your claim is contradicted by the UK Brexit dept.
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Old 18th June 2017, 06:32 AM   #1846
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm shocked, I tells you.

All those that planned the leaving who then wanted those who wanted to remain to sort it all out for them were *********** incompetent liars in the first place. I would no more expect them to have a viable plan now than I did a year ago.

Cockwombles.
It's an absolute ******** so far. Not unexpectedly. Of course the people who wanted it continue to have Euroboners at the prospect of taking back control even though it's increasingly being shown to be an expensive and nonsense vanity project for a few right wing clowns.
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:10 AM   #1847
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From CNN today:

Quote:
Brexit Secretary David Davis arrived in Brussels on Monday to launch talks he hoped would produce a "new, deep and special partnership" with the EU in the interest of Britons and all Europeans.

Beaming as he met the European Union's chief negotiator Michel Barnier at the EU executive's Berlaymont headquarters, the veteran campaigner for Britain to quit the bloc said he aimed for a "positive and constructive" tone in the talks, adding: "There is more that unites us than divides us."
What is it with the Tories? Divorcees do not retain conjugal privileges. Must be those alt-right shibboleths like "sovereignty" still clouding all judgment. Does one constituency lose sovereignty when the nation votes? Then neither did the UK when part of a suprastate in which it had proportional representation. This very sad showing by the Tories, essentially claiming the rights to the having and eating of cake, is getting quite odd when repeated so late in the game. You sign your divorce papers, then maybe spend time repairing relations to see if you can have tea every other month to discuss the weather. Kissy-kissy statements in divorce court are out of place.

Unless, of course, this is the prelude to recognition of infidelity and renewed courtship in earnest to restore the relation. Otherwise, odd.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:35 AM   #1848
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
From CNN today:



What is it with the Tories? Divorcees do not retain conjugal privileges. Must be those alt-right shibboleths like "sovereignty" still clouding all judgment. Does one constituency lose sovereignty when the nation votes? Then neither did the UK when part of a suprastate in which it had proportional representation. This very sad showing by the Tories, essentially claiming the rights to the having and eating of cake, is getting quite odd when repeated so late in the game. You sign your divorce papers, then maybe spend time repairing relations to see if you can have tea every other month to discuss the weather. Kissy-kissy statements in divorce court are out of place.

Unless, of course, this is the prelude to recognition of infidelity and renewed courtship in earnest to restore the relation. Otherwise, odd.
What a ********, appropriating the words of Jo Cox who, lest we forget, was killed during the referendum campaign

IMO this is all part of the "blame the foreigners" policy which will follow our disastrous Brexit negotiations - we were ready to be friendly but those big foreign meanies refused to allow us access to the EU market whilst we restrict movement of EU nationals, opt out of the EHCR and refuse to pay what's owed
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:12 AM   #1849
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
......What is it with the Tories?........
What is it with people who can't just read words and accept them at face value?There is absolutely nothing sinister or having-your-cake-and-eating it about saying "we're leaving the EU, but hope to forge a new and long lasting deep relationship with the group we are leaving". It's sad that some people have got so bitter and twisted about this whole issue that even the blandest of bland statements such as this can lead to assinine anti-Tory rants.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:58 AM   #1850
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
What is it with people who can't just read words and accept them at face value?There is absolutely nothing sinister or having-your-cake-and-eating it about saying "we're leaving the EU, but hope to forge a new and long lasting deep relationship with the group we are leaving". It's sad that some people have got so bitter and twisted about this whole issue that even the blandest of bland statements such as this can lead to assinine anti-Tory rants.
The UK had a long lasting deep relationship with the EU. It's called membership. And if you leave, there's nothing you can expect.

And, to expand Hlafordlaes' analogy with a divorce of a married couple: this was an abusive relationship. A relationship in which the UK was the abuser, beating up the rest of the EU while shouting "I want my money back!". A relationship in which the UK got a massive 30% rebate on their contributions, and in which the UK got opt-outs for large parts of EU policy, such as Schengen, the Euro and the Social Charter (the latter which Blair, to his credit, opted in again). When Cameron, early 2016, went to the EU to negotiate even more exceptions for the UK, there was nothing left to reasonably give. The rest was thoroughly fed up with the UK always wanting to be the special kid.

To put it in a nutshell: the UK was the abuser in this relationship, and when the rest of the EU didn't put up anymore with the abuse, the UK left in a huff. That's how politically informed people in the 27 see it. But I'm afraid that much of the British public, especially the Sun and Daily Mail readers, don't appreciate that.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:01 PM   #1851
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
What is it with people who can't just read words and accept them at face value?There is absolutely nothing sinister or having-your-cake-and-eating it about saying "we're leaving the EU, but hope to forge a new and long lasting deep relationship with the group we are leaving". It's sad that some people have got so bitter and twisted about this whole issue that even the blandest of bland statements such as this can lead to assinine anti-Tory rants.
Whatever. I see Michel Barnier paraphrased my remarks during the PC today.

Back when all this started I gave my formal views on what it means for European security, and how destabilizing it was/is at a bad time - a disaster of epic proportions. I've also recently expressed the view that post-Brexit there might be rapprochement, even using the situation to create framework agreements of more general use. However, I am also of the very fair view that Brexit, to have any meaning, means first of all exit, especially from the point of view of those who so voted, followed by new beginnings whose only condition is that they be of strictly mutual interest. And that level of interest is what seems highly unlikely to be business-as-usual from the EU perspective, yet this is often the claim by the, yes, now desperately duplicitous Tories. The writing is on the wall in neon lights, dude.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:10 PM   #1852
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Apparently talks with the DUP are on a knife edge and they are shocked by the low levels of negotiation experience in Mays team. That sounds positive for Brexit talks then.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:17 PM   #1853
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Well, ddt, Hlafordlaes......What could David Davis have said in his opening remarks that wouldn't have got you turning puce? Think of some bland nothingness that you couldn't possibly criticise. Maybe someone with some perspective will then be able to critique your answer. Faced with the least offensive or loaded set of words I think it possible for Davis to utter you come up with a wtf-are-you-saying-you-moron type of response, so let's see how well you do yourselves.
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:21 PM   #1854
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Because we are a democratic nation and follow the rule of law.
And If Democracy is a failure,what are we going to replace it with?
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:23 PM   #1855
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, ddt, Hlafordlaes......What could David Davis have said in his opening remarks that wouldn't have got you turning puce? Think of some bland nothingness that you couldn't possibly criticise. Maybe someone with some perspective will then be able to critique your answer. Faced with the least offensive or loaded set of words I think it possible for Davis to utter you come up with a wtf-are-you-saying-you-moron type of response, so let's see how well you do yourselves.
Davis is a Tory, therefore Davis is either evil, or stupid,or a combination of both. I think that about covers it....
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Old 20th June 2017, 12:36 PM   #1856
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Davis is a Tory, therefore Davis is either evil, or stupid,or a combination of both. I think that about covers it....
No, it only half covers it. Don't forget that all Tories also hate wogs, women, poofs and the Irish. Obviously.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:30 PM   #1857
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, it only half covers it. Don't forget that all Tories also hate wogs, women, poofs and the Irish. Obviously.
I think that comes under the heading of "Evil".

But this whole "Everybody on the opposite side it Evil" attitude potentially dangerous. I give you the shootings in DC last week as an example.
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Old 20th June 2017, 10:12 PM   #1858
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, it only half covers it. Don't forget that all Tories also hate wogs, women, poofs and the Irish. Obviously.
I see you've given up even the pretence of reasoned argument in defending the May administration. Pity, because there are plenty of specifics to consider. But it really is a complete mess, so maybe your strategy really is the best line of defence currently available.

Now if you want to keep the Tories free from suspicion of being religious and sexual bigots, may I suggest advising them not to put their government under an obligation to show "respect" to the DUP. because that outfit really is suspected of hating wogs, women, poofs and the Irish; and of being sectarian religious bigots, creationists, climate change denialists and financial scammers in addition to these other flaws.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:12 PM   #1859
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I see you've given up even the pretence of reasoned argument in defending the May administration. Pity......
Beautiful! Just lovely. You attack me for quoting back The Don's words smearing all conservatives, but didn't comment at all when he used them in earnest. This really is turning into the pit where critical thinking went to die.
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Old 21st June 2017, 12:50 AM   #1860
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Beautiful! Just lovely. You attack me for quoting back The Don's words smearing all conservatives, but didn't comment at all when he used them in earnest. This really is turning into the pit where critical thinking went to die.
I did ?

You're going to have to remind me of where I did that.

I do remember saying that the Conservatives want to take us back to the 50's when blacks, poofs and Irish knew their place and I've repeatedly referred to the Daily Mail and Daily Express who IMO act as the mouthpieces for the core of Conservative support - and the xenophobic, racist and homophobic content of those rags.

OTOH I'm pretty sure that I haven't said that every single Conservative Party member or every single Conservative Party supporter or every single Conservative Party voter is racist . I have however suggested that xenophobia, racism and homophobia is rife in the Conservative Party that these views have a tangible impact on Conservative Party policy.

It's also the reason IMO why the DUP have found it acceptable to consider a supply and confidence relationship with The Conservative Party.
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Old 21st June 2017, 02:44 PM   #1861
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Beautiful! Just lovely. You attack me for quoting back The Don's words smearing all conservatives, but didn't comment at all when he used them in earnest. This really is turning into the pit where critical thinking went to die.
How very disagreeable that is, but unspecific as a response.
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Old 21st June 2017, 07:49 PM   #1862
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From the Torygraph

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/...YrC&ocid=wispr

H'Madge predicts mass defection of EU members to below the original 6 Commoner Marketeers
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Old 22nd June 2017, 04:03 PM   #1863
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And after the NHS another group sounds the alarm about potential labour shortages and big prices rises as a consequence:

Fruit and veg farmers facing migrant labour shortages

And as to why they don't just replace them with UK workers:

Quote:
So why doesn't horticulture, now a £3bn industry, simply try to employ British workers?
The answer is straightforward for Beverley Dixon, from G's Fresh, which employs some 2,500 seasonal workers growing salad crops across large areas of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk, as well as other farms dotted across the UK.
"We operate in areas of such low unemployment, so here in Cambridgeshire, it's less than 1.5%," she said.
"So there simply aren't the people available to do the work, added to which UK people tend to want permanent year-round work and this is seasonal work.'
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:10 PM   #1864
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And after the NHS another group sounds the alarm about potential labour shortages and big prices rises as a consequence:

Fruit and veg farmers facing migrant labour shortages

And as to why they don't just replace them with UK workers:
The reality of Brexit begins to dawn.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:30 PM   #1865
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And after the NHS another group sounds the alarm about potential labour shortages and big prices rises as a consequence:

Fruit and veg farmers facing migrant labour shortages

And as to why they don't just replace them with UK workers:
Dr Pangloss: This will be good for children in their holidays.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 22nd June 2017, 05:35 PM   #1866
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Okay, so PM May has said that EU citizens who arrive between now and some point in the future before Brexit is finalized will be able to gain the rights of British citizens.

Well, I expect this is about as good a commitment as can be given, though it now seems strange that no clarification has been given until now. The previous rationale was that it was a bargaining chip that she didn't want to reveal. Is there any reason why this was held back until now?

My own suspicion is that she didn't want to give the UKIPs and country Conservatives some kind of reason to go mental about a happy hour dash to the U.K. by the Slavic hordes, the blacks, the Irish and the poofs.

Please discuss.
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Old 22nd June 2017, 08:50 PM   #1867
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And after the NHS another group sounds the alarm about potential labour shortages and big prices rises as a consequence:

Fruit and veg farmers facing migrant labour shortages

And as to why they don't just replace them with UK workers:
Song I remember from childhood
Wha saw the tattie howkers,

Wha saw them gang awa'?

Wha saw the tattie howkers,

Marching through the Broomielaw?

Some o' them had bits an' stockings,

Some o' them had nane at a',

Some o' them had umberellas

Fur tae keep the rain awa'
So the tattie howkers will indeed "gang awa'" post Brexit.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:14 AM   #1868
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And after the NHS another group sounds the alarm about potential labour shortages and big prices rises as a consequence:

Fruit and veg farmers facing migrant labour shortages

And as to why they don't just replace them with UK workers:
This was being pointed out (quite a lot) before the vote last year.

It was one of the things I kept referring to.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:21 AM   #1869
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It's hard to see how Brexit has changed the labour market for seasonal agricultural workers, when absolutely nothing whatever has changed yet. Labour markets are subject to a number of influences, and I'd like to see an expert analysis of why things are tighter in the Fens this year before assigning any blame to something that hasn't happened yet.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:35 AM   #1870
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's hard to see how Brexit has changed the labour market for seasonal agricultural workers, when absolutely nothing whatever has changed yet.
Perception of future has changed, which influences the actions of people today.

It has all to do with our ability to predict the effect our present action or events will have on the future. Supporters of Brexit seem be quite deficient in this ability.

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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:37 AM   #1871
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Perception of future has changed, which influences the actions of people today.......
Forgive me, but how does "perception of the future" influence a seasonal agricultural worker's decision to come or not come to Britain for a couple of months now?
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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:42 AM   #1872
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Forgive me, but how does "perception of the future" influence a seasonal agricultural worker's decision to come or not come to Britain for a couple of months now?
Apparently the ability of the worker to come again a few years in the future is a sufficiently important consideration to at least cause concern among agricultural businesses.

They'll reduce or hold off investments first. A little while later, problems will explode.

http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/...ertainty-looms

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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:47 AM   #1873
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
It's hard to see how Brexit has changed the labour market for seasonal agricultural workers, when absolutely nothing whatever has changed yet. Labour markets are subject to a number of influences, and I'd like to see an expert analysis of why things are tighter in the Fens this year before assigning any blame to something that hasn't happened yet.
The exchange rate.
For seasonal workers from, say, Poland the current rate (in Euros) is quite a bit less than it was beginning of June last year.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 01:47 AM   #1874
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Apparently the ability of the worker to come again a few years in the future is a sufficiently important consideration to at least cause concern among agricultural businesses.

They'll reduce or hold off investments first. A little while later, problems will explode.

http://www.fruitnet.com/fpj/article/...ertainty-looms

McHrozni
I'm aware of that, but it doesn't alter the point I made. How is recruitment now, this year, affected by something which hasn't happened yet?

Ninja'd by Tolls.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 02:27 AM   #1875
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
The exchange rate.
For seasonal workers from, say, Poland the current rate (in Euros) is quite a bit less than it was beginning of June last year.
Not to mention the general feeling of being unwanted and stories of xenophobia and abuse.

Of course nothing has actually changed yet in the rules. Wait till it does.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 02:41 AM   #1876
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The 14% fall in the Pound against the Euro may well have had an effect. From the 2016 NFU Labour Provider Survey:

“This is the first year since 2008, just before the SAWS work card allocation was increased that we have failed to fill the seasonal labour requirements of some of our growers due to a shortage of labour. This has only revealed itself since the result of the referendum. The media in Europe is reporting the outcome of the referendum quite negatively, including some of the xenophobic attacks, and there is a feeling that workers will not be made welcome compared to other countries. This is affecting initial levels of interest. The value of the pound will inevitably have some effect as other countries start to look more financially attractive than they were before compared to the UK”.

Link to pdf.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:17 AM   #1877
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CNN posted a lovely infographic of something the British government barely mentioned thus far.

UK relied on EU for external trade and cooperation treaties for decades. Once out of EU the treaties will no longer apply. UK needs to figure out which ones it needs and which ones it can do away with and renegotiate them. There are over 600 treaties with 150 states in total, I guesstimate UK needs about 100-150 of them.

Given that the country was forced to import negotiators from New Zealand for Brexit, I foresee a series of miserable failures on this front.

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/new...exit-treaties/

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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:33 AM   #1878
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Gee, it's almost like, no matter how long we stare at it, it continues to be a *********** disastrous idea. I am at a loss as to why the current narrative isn't 'Leaving the EU, there are no good reasons to do so'.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:41 AM   #1879
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Gee, it's almost like, no matter how long we stare at it, it continues to be a *********** disastrous idea. I am at a loss as to why the current narrative isn't 'Leaving the EU, there are no good reasons to do so'.
Because the people who voted for it did it for bad reasons and those continue to be the case.

Seriously it remains to be about Muslims, Syrian refugees and taking back control from the foreigners.
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Old 23rd June 2017, 03:45 AM   #1880
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Gee, it's almost like, no matter how long we stare at it, it continues to be a *********** disastrous idea. I am at a loss as to why the current narrative isn't 'Leaving the EU, there are no good reasons to do so'.
I find it alarming that new downsides are uncovered on an almost daily basis, whereas the upsides are still the vague few promises of a "Global Britain", which remain without substance.

Any Brit should too. It seems that Brexit will create an isolated Britain, first and foremost. Even small advantages are at best decades away.

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