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Old 18th June 2017, 02:03 PM   #521
jimbob
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
London Fire Brigade Chief Dany Cotton announced that in her 29 years - or was it 19 - in the fire brigade she had 'never seen a fire like this'.

She should know.

I believe her.

Others are free to say she is 'an unreliable source'.
That seems to be missing the point. There has been no fire of this magnitude in the UK for a long time - the Bradford City* fire or Kings Cross fires were probably the last ones.

However that is not the same as saying that even when they are not trying to deceive, the press often oversimplifies and gets things wrong.

Even if they weren't, we still don't know what caused the fire.

*We watched footage of that at my last first aid course. It was shocking how quickly a minor puff of smoke turned into a massive blaze.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:05 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post

<snipped for brevity>

The aforementioned CDM regulations, when taken in conjunction with the old six pack, require us as designers to consider in some considerable detail how buildings will perform across a range of different factors. Many of them will include issues around forms of construction and life safety.

It is necessarily complex.

Let me give you a very simple example. Were you aware that normal wiring cannot be used in conjunction with certain insulants because plasticiser migration leaves the wire brittle and subject to accelerated failure? Now, imagine that you had such a situation in situation where internally there were no cavity fire breaks (for example an early timber kit multi-storey building).

The health & safety manuals in our office fill the better part of a whole shelf in the library.
[/color]


Of course I have no technical knowledge. And of course an accountancy module in H&S is hardly going to be much beyond basic standard, it's more a training in leadership skills in business.

I have worked in highly regulated industries. Our regulators certainly did not give us any slack at all. Despite paying hefty subscription fees, it never hesitated in slapping our wrists if conformance to any of the numerous regulations were lacking.

Like most accountants I know, I have come across fraud and embezzlement in the workplace and true to my ethical standards, I reported it through the correct channels.

Objectivity is absolutely essential.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:08 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If you search for things like "emergency high-rise egress" you find quite a number of devices. Some are not very realistic, like parachutes, but some look pretty practical, in theory, like giant enclosed slides. Whether they could be used by hundreds of people at once is still a big question.

I might like to travel with this in a suitcase (and there are several similar gadgets):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbZFv-o69V8

Of course, one big problem here was the "shelter in place" advice; if people had been trained to leave the building the moment the alarm went off (assuming a functioning alarm system), there would have been fewer deaths. And if the building had been designed with two fire-protected stairwells on opposite sides, they could have gotten out faster.

That is really scary!
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:11 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Absolutely. 100%. That's my experience on many, many occasions. Even if interviewed on TV the editing can change your meaning beyond recognition.

What some posters don't understand is that we are at the "opinion" stage of this puzzle. When we are at the "fact" stage, maybe said posters will stop mis-representing opinions as facts. We are quite some time away from knowing the facts.
That is your straw man and your excuse for making unwarranted attacks. I do not recall anybody here claiming to know 'the facts'.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:11 PM   #525
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Mod WarningSeveral posts moved to AAH. Please keep to the topic of the thread which is, as ever, not each other.

Thank you.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:36 PM   #526
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There are rules and regulations, and even laws and maintenance schedules in the aircraft industry, and for very good reason. Some woman was interviewed on TV and she said she was involved in fire safety at that tower block. She once wrote to a tenant who was blocking some kind of fire exit with a bicycle. I don't think that's a focus on priorities. There is more to fire prevention than that. It's more like criminal negligence to me and unprofessional. My sister said that at her workplace they often and regularly have fire drills and fire alarm tests, and evacuation of the building tests.

It was the fault of the architect for not specifying fire resistant cladding.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 18th June 2017 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:39 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There are rules and regulations, and even laws and maintenance schedules in the aircraft industry, and for very good reason. Some woman was interviewed on TV and she said she was involved in fire safety at that tower block. She once wrote to a tenant who was blocking some kind of fire exit with a bicycle. I don't think that's a focus on priorities. There is more to fire prevention than that. It's more like criminal negligence to me and unprofessional. My sister said that at her workplace they often and regularly have fire drills and fire alarm tests, and evacuation of the building tests.

It was the fault of the architect for not specifying fire resistant cladding.
Tell us what cladding was specified.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:42 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Tell us what cladding was specified.
The cheapest.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:50 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The cheapest.
Evidence?
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:50 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The cheapest.
It is possible that the "cheapest" was installed. Henri McPhee said that fire resistant cladding was not specified. You tell us the cheapest was specified. I would like either of you to tell us, with evidence, what was specified
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Old 18th June 2017, 03:30 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Evidence?

It was a tongue-in-cheek comment based on various news reports.

I should have included a :/
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Old 18th June 2017, 03:49 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was a tongue-in-cheek comment based on various news reports.

I should have included a :/
Hard to tell. It appeared consistent with your other posts in this thread.
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Old 18th June 2017, 04:00 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
I fear that an extinguisher would never have helped after the fire took hold. Good fire escapes would have been the only thing, although one might speculate as to whether properly used smoke hoods might have helped (if they were practicable).
I agree, but am thinking more about what happens before the fire takes hold. If there's a way to prevent an event from becoming one of those terrible things for which even reasonable precautions don't suffice - prevention rather than cure - then it seems worth pursuing.
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Old 18th June 2017, 11:37 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
....It was the fault of the architect for not specifying fire resistant cladding.
Oh good, you have access to the original contract, including specifications and drawings. Excellent, I've been waiting for someone to get hold of these. There is lots to be gleaned from that. As a matter of interest, how did you manage to copy private documents?
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:07 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
External cladding didn't lead to this. The use of a product which was specifically contraindicated because of the risk of fire caused this.

Just because someone chose to use inappropriate materials to cut corners doesn't invalidate the entire project.

If a contractor used topsoil instead of compacted fill to repair a road and the road caved in would you say that the road repair was at fault?
Yes I would. So would most people. One expects the people / organisation employed to be competent and use appropriate materials.

Then you would be wrong.

You are conflating two different things here. The need/utility/appropriateness of an project are not properly judged by the execution of that project. Whether or not the road repair was done correctly has no bearing on the need for the repair in the first place.

What one "expects" has no bearing on real life. If a human system lacks perfection when performing some task, that does not mean that the task is the problem.
Quote:

I understand the point being made. The wrong material being chosen does not invalidate the general concept of cladding. The wrong material may have been chosen because of ignorance, incompetence or corruption.

I don't think you do, or you wouldn't follow a paragraph prefaced by your disagreement with one which seems to emphasizes the very point I was making.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:18 AM   #536
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The one group that are surprisingly silent are the insurance companies. The building itself would likely be insured, and often insurance companies inspect large risks. Normally individuals would have household insurance, mine includes cover for rehousing. One of the scenes from flooding events is the insurance companies quite rapidly move in assessors. Now it may be that they are involved and it is just not reported.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:22 AM   #537
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The insurers are likely to have appointed specialist assessors, who in turn will review the emerging technical investigation.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:42 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
<snip>

Private building inspectors know exactly which side their bread is buttered, and being an employee of their client, and wishing to be employed again by that client, are universally thought of as being easier to please. Oh yes, the paperwork always looks first rate. The communications are brilliant, and the technical knowledge is first rate............but I've never had one stand on site and say "sorry, you're going to have to take that down and do it again properly".

<snip>
And that is one of the reasons why we do not have private building inspectors/control officers in Scotland.
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I didn't know that. If you ever hear of proposals to introduce private inspectors in Scotland, raise as much opposition to it as you can possibly muster. It is in principle a corrupt relationship, and I'd love to see us return to the status quo anti, post haste. In the meantime, I always ask my clients to use Council Inspectors.

I have to think that the two of you are referring to "private inspectors" in situations where they are the only inspection being done.

I can see how that would present issues for you.

That doesn't happen here.

At a minimum we will always have local jurisdiction building and fire inspectors. The local jurisdiction building inspection process usually has several different inspection departments, so that a building inspector is not signing off on the electrical inspection (for example).

When the building is partly or wholly funded by state money there will also be state inspectors with the same sort of separation of responsibilities. Federally funded buildings add another set of inspectors. An additional one.

"Private inspectors" are not uncommon. Most of the large projects I have worked on have private inspectors who are either hired by the architects/engineers who designed the building or are part of the architectural/engineering firms who did the contract. I've developed fairly close working relationships with more than a few of them during the course of a project, to the point where at least once they had made the awarding of a later contract with the company I was working for contingent on my involvement in the new project.

These "private inspectors" were quite capable and more than willing to say, "Sorry, you're going to have to take that down and do it again properly".

On one hospital complex the neonatal nursing staff came through to view their ward, and as a result we had to rip out and redo the infant isolation area (to the tune of a hundred grand or so) because they felt there were too many horizontal mullions in the glass walls of the enclosure.

On buildings I have done which were being build for IBM (but not owned by them) they would send their own handicap accessibility inspector to verify ADA compliance, after the local building inspector had already signed off.

They were sneaky about it. They used a real handicapped guy ... in a wheelchair. He could say, "Sorry, you're going to have to take that down and do it again properly". And if we didn't then IBM could refuse to take possession of the building. And would.

So, when discussing private inspection it bears some qualification. That's the point I am making.

The situation which you describe, where the only inspection is a private entity belonging to the owner, is one fraught with potential for abuse.

The private inspectors I have worked with are fully vested with the authority to make changes or disapprove work, and are an extra layer of protection above and beyond that of whatever official regulatory authorities might provide.

I just don't want them all being tarred with the same brush you are using.

I've always been grateful for their contributions. The more eyes, the better.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:50 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
The one group that are surprisingly silent are the insurance companies. The building itself would likely be insured, and often insurance companies inspect large risks. Normally individuals would have household insurance, mine includes cover for rehousing. One of the scenes from flooding events is the insurance companies quite rapidly move in assessors. Now it may be that they are involved and it is just not reported.
More than that, almost all the people involved in the contract for refurbishing the building will have their own insurance. Professional indemnity insurance for architects, surveyors, structural engineers etc. These insurers have their own lawyers, so I really wouldn't expect to hear any comments from anyone involved until the Public Enquiry sits.

I haven't time for a full answer to Quadraginta's point ATM.....but yes, we're talking about private building inspectors, who supplant the role of the local authority. They aren't in addition to it, they are in place of it.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:51 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
The insurers are likely to have appointed specialist assessors, who in turn will review the emerging technical investigation.
I was more thinking
1) did they assess the fire risk before the event, they would have to have been informed about significant modifications to the building and agree to provide insurance.
2) Should they not be providing accommodation / emergency payments for the tenants (for whom they are the insurers).
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:53 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I was more thinking
1) did they assess the fire risk before the event, they would have to have been informed about significant modifications to the building and agree to provide insurance.
2) Should they not be providing accommodation / emergency payments for the tenants (for whom they are the insurers).
The tenants are not their customers the management company is.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:59 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
<snip>

I have worked with US clients and contractors. At the risk of a smack, we might have to explain to you what this "health and safety" thing is.

From what I've see here it appears more likely that the information stream should go in the other direction.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:03 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The tenants are not their customers the management company is.
When I was a tenant in a shared block I had household insurance cover including rehousing in the event that one needed rehousing because of e.g. fire or flood. I accept some may not have insurance, but I would expect most would.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:06 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not quite to that level of variability but "escape chutes" and "escape rescue systems" do exist and they could be an option of last resort in some high rise buildings but then we get back to what I was saying earlier - it won't be until such methods are used in a real situation we will have a proper understanding whether they are better than nothing or are worse than nothing i.e. can cause more deaths.

(Some of them are meant to be able to be used by the elderly and disabled.)

High-rise buildings present practical issues which "escape chute" type systems are not able to address. Keep in mind, such a system is by definition a controlled fall, and their is a height beyond which any sort of control is not possible.

Even the escape slides on passenger jets are expected to, and do cause injury, Sometimes serious. Magnify that by an order of magnitude or more.

Escape systems which can critically injure or kill more people than they save might not be the best place to devote funding.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:12 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
There seems to be some confusion about alarms. A smoke alarm goes off in the unit where somebody's burning toast; he can put out his toast and shut off his alarm himself, no harm done. A building alarm is manually operated by pulling a lever on a box in the hall, and it sounds bells or sirens throughout the building. That only happens (or is supposed to happen) when an actual person detects real danger, and that's the signal to get out. I live in an urban area with a lot of high-rises, and false fire alarms don't seem to be any problem at all.
http://www.wikihow.com/Pull-a-Fire-Alarm

I agree about the confusion.

You seem to be confusing a smoke alarm, which is a gizmo mounted on the ceiling or high on a wall which may or may not be connected to some central alarm system with a central fire alarm system itself.

A pull station will always be connected to the central fire alarm system. It would do no good at all if it wasn't.

If a building has pull stations then that is a pretty good sign it has a central fire alarm system. Alarm devices (e.g., smoke detectors) in individual areas may or may not also be connected depending on a number of factors.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:15 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What do you think it was I encountered in that student lodging room in Exeter in 1974? It was an attic room in a house in this street, though I can't say it was any of these houses - the street is very long and I can't remember the number. The bedroom was a twin and I shared it with another vet student.

https://goo.gl/maps/9arf6kwAGA82

The device was a big reel of some sort of webbing secured inside the dormer window. I don't remember being shown how to use it. I assume there was some sort of harness and you could lower yourself to the ground with it. How it would be sent up for the other occupant I don't know.

For starters, you were in a house, not a high-rise. Possible escape solutions are far more abundant when you are at most twenty or thirty feet from the ground than they are when you are a hundred or more.
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NFPA 5000TM-2002, define high-rise buildings as buildings 75 feet or greater in height measured from the lowest level of fire department vehicle access to the floor of the highest occupiable story.
The highlighted part is a moving target, dependent on the equipment locally available to respond to a fire, and the proximity to the building which that equipment can manage.

In general, lowering yourself down from buildings that high will be a non-trivial exercise, assuming the fire itself will permit it.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:20 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
When I was a tenant in a shared block I had household insurance cover including rehousing in the event that one needed rehousing because of e.g. fire or flood. I accept some may not have insurance, but I would expect most would.
That's your personal household insurance not the insurers you seemed to be talking about.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:25 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Diesel delivery trucks idling in the driveway under our hospitals air intake used to set off the hospital's fire alarm. Fun.

Somebody needs to have their cage rattled.

When I have done additions to hospitals which were (for example) merely near something like a surgical suite we couldn't even have equipment running during certain hours, just because of possible vibration, as well as any exhaust issues, which we'd better not have to begin with.

That meant any equipment. Not just heavy stuff like backhoes and loaders, but welders, generators, air compressors, etc.

We could get calls if hammers were too noisy.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:35 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
When I was a tenant in a shared block I had household insurance cover including rehousing in the event that one needed rehousing because of e.g. fire or flood. I accept some may not have insurance, but I would expect most would.

Most rental contracts in the U.S will have clauses requiring the tenant to have their own insurance. Generally they also require proof of that.

Even the storage facility I rent a crummy little 10' x 10' space in requires it. I just had to go down there last week with a copy of my insurance policy to prove it was current. If you aren't covered by any other current policy you may have they require you to subscribe to one which they provide, at a tidy additional profit.

These property managers aren't requiring this through any sort of benevolence, though. They want to make sure that their exposure to liability is as limited as possible.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 19th June 2017 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 19th June 2017, 01:46 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
We were developing Carbon monoxide detectors, which are generally less prone to false alarms, but we did have to consider tweaking the initial thresholds for use in say Athens, due to the ambient pollution.

Underground carparks were another place where they weren't recommended

A carbon monoxide detector should not be used as a replacement for a smoke detector, but only in addition to one.

They serve two entirely different purposes and each can be activated by conditions which do not activate the other but still present dangerous, emergency situations.

Even their proper installation is completely different. They have to be placed in entirely different locations to function properly.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:19 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
When I was a tenant in a shared block I had household insurance cover including rehousing in the event that one needed rehousing because of e.g. fire or flood. I accept some may not have insurance, but I would expect most would.
Don't bet on it. Although it's often a condition of the tenancy (to include tenants liability in case you burn down the building), many won't as it's a fairly poor area.

My current landlord checked I have cover when I moved into my house three years ago, but has never checked since. I do but it would have been easy to let it lapse.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:48 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
It is possible that the "cheapest" was installed. Henri McPhee said that fire resistant cladding was not specified. You tell us the cheapest was specified. I would like either of you to tell us, with evidence, what was specified
I agree with Vixen. One of my second cousins is an architect. I have a boy scout fire badge which involved attending a lecture at a fire station.

My information about the planning application for Grenfell Tower refurbishment comes from Sky News on Sunday at 10pm. They said there that the architect did not specify fire retardant cladding, and that they had seen the planning application. I hope the documentation and correspondence with regard to the matter is not now being secretly shredded for legal reasons. The Daily Mail has reported that the cladding boss and his wife are rolling in it. I am not quite clear who buys this dangerous non fire retardant cladding, unless it is just used for things like garden sheds.

There is a bit about the matter at an architects journal website, which I can't link:

Quote:
In 2009, a BBC London investigation found that hundreds of tower blocks across London had not been properly assessed for fire safety.
Using FOI, the investigation found that councils had failed to fire check at least 253 social housing high-rises – something that constitutes a criminal offence.
Requests sent to 32 boroughs showed at least eight councils had failed to make proper checks.

Comments

Hannah Mansell, chair of the Passive Fire Protection Forum, trustee of the Children’s Burns Trust and spokesperson for the BWF’s Fire Door Safety Week campaign.

We have a right to be very angry at the news about Grenfell Tower. I regularly sit in meetings with fire safety professionals, and their fury and frustration at the inaction of local councils and social landlords is palpable.
We have been warning about the risks of a fire like this for years. ‘What we need to get people to take notice is a huge fire in a tower block’ they say. Well, here it is.

’There’s an endemic fire safety problem in this type of housing stock’

There is an endemic fire safety problem in this type of housing stock. I have walked around tower blocks documenting and filming the fire safety breaches. I’ve seen flats without fire doors, no emergency lighting or signage on fire doors and escape routes, broken fire rated glass, wedged-open fire doors, poor fire stopping around service hatches that breach compartmentation, no smoke seals in fire doors, rubbish and combustible material left in the common areas, and no information displayed on the specific fire plan of the building.
But that information appears to fall on deaf ears. Action must be taken now to address these issues.

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Old 19th June 2017, 02:54 AM   #553
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Met police have stated that the number of dead or missing, presumed dead is now 79, but may change (BBC).
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:14 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
The Daily Mail has reported that the cladding boss and his wife are rolling in it.
Even if the Daily Mail has managed to get something right for a change, what does this have to do about anything apart from the owners of the cladding firm run a profitable business ?
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:19 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
A carbon monoxide detector should not be used as a replacement for a smoke detector, but only in addition to one.

They serve two entirely different purposes and each can be activated by conditions which do not activate the other but still present dangerous, emergency situations.

Even their proper installation is completely different. They have to be placed in entirely different locations to function properly.
It was this model (ETA range, which included that model) it is a fire sensor that primarily uses CO detection for its signature.

https://www.acornfiresecurity.com/80...tor-minerva-mx
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:24 AM   #556
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Link to a Guardian story regarding the cladding:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...mnis-exteriors

Quote:
Material used in the cladding that covered the Grenfell Tower was the cheaper, more flammable version of the two available options, an investigation of the supply chain has confirmed.

Omnis Exteriors manufactured the aluminium composite material (ACM) used in the cladding, a company director, John Cowley, confirmed to the Guardian.

He also said Omnis had been asked to supply Reynobond PE cladding, which is £2 cheaper per square metre than the alternative Reynobond FR, which stands for “fire resistant” to the companies that worked on refurbishing Grenfell Tower.
If this story is accurate then Omnis Exteriors supplied the materials it was asked to. The Guardian story then goes on to a breathless expose (my words) of the fact that Omnis Exteriors is profitable. I'm not sure what blame could be attributed to Omnis Exteriors as long as they supplied the specified materials.

The Guardian goes on to say.....

Quote:
Omnis sold ACM cladding to Harley Facades, which was responsible for installing it.

Construction firm Rydon Maintenance was the lead contractor on the project but sub-contracted elements of the work to smaller companies, including Harley.
So are Harley Facades to blame ? Who knows ? If they were also working to specification then it could hardly be their "fault".

Then again, according to the same Guardian story:

Quote:
In the UK there are no regulations requiring the use of fire-retardant material in cladding used on the exterior of tower blocks and schools.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:33 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
......One of my second cousins is an architect. I have a boy scout fire badge which involved attending a lecture at a fire station.

My information about the planning application for Grenfell Tower......
Is this really what it's come to?

A 2nd cousin and a boy scout badge. Honest to god, you couldn't make this up.

You do realise that the Planning process has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the specification of the cladding or insulation, don't you? I mean, no-one with a boy scout badge and a 2nd cousin who is an architect could possible confuse the Planning Application with the Building Regulations application, could they.
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:10 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If this story is accurate then Omnis Exteriors supplied the materials it was asked to. The Guardian story then goes on to a breathless expose (my words) of the fact that Omnis Exteriors is profitable. I'm not sure what blame could be attributed to Omnis Exteriors as long as they supplied the specified materials.
Well, clearly they should have considered the total size of the order, calculated it must have been for cladding a single building over XX mtres, and then second-guessed the buyer and insisted they buy a different product instead.

Or something....
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:20 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Is this really what it's come to?

A 2nd cousin and a boy scout badge. Honest to god, you couldn't make this up.
Edited by Agatha:  Edited breach of rule 12

Last edited by Agatha; 19th June 2017 at 08:55 AM.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:54 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I agree with Vixen. One of my second cousins is an architect. I have a boy scout fire badge which involved attending a lecture at a fire station.

My information about the planning application for Grenfell Tower refurbishment comes from Sky News on Sunday at 10pm. They said there that the architect did not specify fire retardant cladding, and that they had seen the planning application. I hope the documentation and correspondence with regard to the matter is not now being secretly shredded for legal reasons. The Daily Mail has reported that the cladding boss and his wife are rolling in it. I am not quite clear who buys this dangerous non fire retardant cladding, unless it is just used for things like garden sheds.

There is a bit about the matter at an architects journal website, which I can't link:
A lot of words to just say that you do not know what was specified.
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