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Old 16th June 2017, 02:27 PM   #1
MicahJava
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The state of Oregon adds "Non-Binary" option to Driver's License

http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-o...censes-n772891

I must say that I strongly despise anybody who questions non-binary people's right to exist. You'd have to be a damn stupid idiot to be anti-gender minority, especially if you are pro-gay in the first place. Use inductive reasoning. What are these morons thinking? "Obviously blacks are equal to whites, obviously females are just as intelligent as males, obviously being gay is ok, but I think there just might be something to this hatred of trans and non-binary people!". So gullible. These yahoos are no better than the people who used to (and still do) say "PENIS GOES INTO THE VAGINA, PEOPLE! COME ON, THIS IS SCIENCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE! HOMOSEXUALITY IS UNNATURAL!". Oregon totally has the right idea.

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Old 16th June 2017, 02:59 PM   #2
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Who are you yelling at?

Also, yay non-binary people! And yay Oregon!

I forsee some problems. If a penile non-binary wants to be put in a holding cell with the women, do the police oblige? If a vaginal non-binary needs to be strip-searched, does a female cop have to be present? Does "non-binary" on the driver's license actually have any practical effect?

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Old 16th June 2017, 03:01 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who are you yelling at?
THEM!
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:28 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-o...censes-n772891

I must say that I strongly despise anybody who questions non-binary people's right to exist. You'd have to be a damn stupid idiot to be anti-gender minority, especially if you are pro-gay in the first place. Use inductive reasoning. What are these morons thinking? "Obviously blacks are equal to whites, obviously females are just as intelligent as males, obviously being gay is ok, but I think there just might be something to this hatred of trans and non-binary people!". So gullible. These yahoos are no better than the people who used to (and still do) say "PENIS GOES INTO THE VAGINA, PEOPLE! COME ON, THIS IS SCIENCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE! HOMOSEXUALITY IS UNNATURAL!". Oregon totally has the right idea.
I have never heard that complaint. What I have heard is more along the lines of bi-skeptics: they don't actually exist, they are mistaken, it is a fad, etc.

Transgender and non-binary are contradictory and they are distinct groups, but that is another discussion. Needless to say, one has had extensive scientific research, and the other not so much.

I disagree with your "logic", however. We still have plenty of people who are bigoted on race but not sexuality, etc. There is no transitional logic because race and sex and sexuality are all separate issues.

And technically this change isn't about "non-binary", but "other" or "non-specified" options.
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Old 16th June 2017, 10:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I forsee some problems. If a penile non-binary wants to be put in a holding cell with the women, do the police oblige?
Maybe the problem there is the concept a holding cell for more than one person in the first place. This is the 21st Century, after all.
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Old 17th June 2017, 03:56 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Maybe the problem there is the concept a holding cell for more than one person in the first place. This is the 21st Century, after all.
I don't think that's the problem. And what does the Gregorian calendar have to do with anything? Does human civilization magically change after a certain number of pages are flipped?
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:11 AM   #7
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[quote=theprestige;11887869]I don't think that's the problem.[quote]
I thought it was fairly obvious. Having separate self-contained holding cells rather than a communal one means you don't have any issues of who should be put in with whom. Certainly in the UK police stations have an adequate number of single cells, and they would only have to think about putting more than one person in each at times of very exceptional load.
Quote:
And what does the Gregorian calendar have to do with anything? Does human civilization magically change after a certain number of pages are flipped?
It was a not-exactly-unheard-of way of suggesting that communal holding cells are archaic.

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Old 17th June 2017, 04:17 AM   #8
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[quote=Information Analyst;11887876][quote=theprestige;11887869]I don't think that's the problem.
Quote:
I thought it was fairly obvious. Having separate self-contained holding cells rather than a communal one means you don't have any issues of who should be put in with whom. Certainly in the UK police stations have an adequate number of single cells, and they would only have to think about putting more than one person in each at times of very exceptional load.

It was a not-exactly-unheard-of way of suggesting that communal holding cells are archaic.
OK, so what happens to the non binary under exceptional load?
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:21 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who are you yelling at?

Also, yay non-binary people! And yay Oregon!

I forsee some problems. If a penile non-binary wants to be put in a holding cell with the women, do the police oblige? If a vaginal non-binary needs to be strip-searched, does a female cop have to be present? Does "non-binary" on the driver's license actually have any practical effect?
We used to have "administrative segregation" for this situation. It seemed to make everyone happy or as happy as one gets in immigration detention.
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Old 17th June 2017, 04:24 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
OK, so what happens to the non binary under exceptional load?
Well, obviously it would have to be very very exceptional load if occupants couldn't be shuffled around to accommodate that. Given the odds it may never actually happened. Even as it is, the fact that single cells already exist for a variety of other reasons just mean that this particular "problem" is unlikely to arise. For example, it seems that holding cells assaults/homicides are far more prevalent in the US than in the UK.
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:57 AM   #11
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I'm not sure about this. The point of the piece of paper is to identify the person. Ht, wt, hair color,... Does "non-binary" do anything to add to that, or is it just so broad to be useless? Or just a warning- "Might be Dressed like a girl, but it is still the legal entity known as John Doe"? Gay has little to do with ID, cross dressing does. So the debacle does little for civil rights of most genders.

It might give interesting data though. Give it a few years, and see how many non-binary there are out there? ALL studies are biased, how about some reality?
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Old 18th June 2017, 08:23 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who are you yelling at?

Also, yay non-binary people! And yay Oregon!

I forsee some problems. If a penile non-binary wants to be put in a holding cell with the women, do the police oblige? If a vaginal non-binary needs to be strip-searched, does a female cop have to be present? Does "non-binary" on the driver's license actually have any practical effect?
Well getting rid of binary holding cells may stop people going gay for the stay. Won't anybody think of the hetro prison rapists?
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Old 18th June 2017, 09:51 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Well, obviously it would have to be very very exceptional load if occupants couldn't be shuffled around to accommodate that. Given the odds it may never actually happened. Even as it is, the fact that single cells already exist for a variety of other reasons just mean that this particular "problem" is unlikely to arise. For example, it seems that holding cells assaults/homicides are far more prevalent in the US than in the UK.
Well, maybe it does not have to be very exceptional. If someone is arrested in a large city, like Portland, they go to the county jail. That county has a population of about 800,000. County jails normally house inmates serving a sentence of a year or under as well as people brought in by cops on patrol, those awaiting trial, and those waiting to be bailed out. That total number could be pretty big for a county of that size.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every jail in every Oregon county has the budget and the space to house every inmate in a separate cell.
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Old 18th June 2017, 09:58 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
... it is a fad ...
Thats a good point ... this kind of thing is very popular nowadays ... like vegans and gluten free warriors
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Old 18th June 2017, 04:55 PM   #15
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Is this for people whose gender is "physically ambiguous" or for anyone who wants to call themselves non-binary?

Can a person with a penis be listed as non-binary, or female for that matter? Gender on a license is for identification purposes so I would think that the information should be factual.
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Old 18th June 2017, 05:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Is this for people whose gender is "physically ambiguous" or for anyone who wants to call themselves non-binary?

Can a person with a penis be listed as non-binary, or female for that matter? Gender on a license is for identification purposes so I would think that the information should be factual.
Not factual. Apparent.

"Pulled oven an individual for excessive speed. Apparently brown haired. Apparently blue eyed. Apparently about 5'8". Apparently male-"

"I'm not male! I'm non-binary!"

"-Apparently male."
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Old 18th June 2017, 06:54 PM   #17
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Haha well that clears it up!

I knew my choice of word would be a problem. So can my license say I'm female if I have a penis, and only a penis? The whole penis and nothing but the penis?

Can I alter my apparent date of birth? I look so young...

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Old 18th June 2017, 07:03 PM   #18
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I thought the whole point of "freedom" was that we don't have to live our lives to suit the maximum convenience of the police in hypothetical future situations? "No, dear, you have to pick a gender because just think how confusing it would be for the booking sergeant if you ever get arrested for murder!"
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
Well, maybe it does not have to be very exceptional. If someone is arrested in a large city, like Portland, they go to the county jail. That county has a population of about 800,000. County jails normally house inmates serving a sentence of a year or under as well as people brought in by cops on patrol, those awaiting trial, and those waiting to be bailed out. That total number could be pretty big for a county of that size.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every jail in every Oregon county has the budget and the space to house every inmate in a separate cell.
The discussion was about holding cells in police stations, but also about exceptional cases, not "every inmate."

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Old 19th June 2017, 10:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought the whole point of "freedom" was that we don't have to live our lives to suit the maximum convenience of the police in hypothetical future situations?
None of the information on my driver's license has anything to do with how I live my life. The whole point of "freedom" is that your identity isn't defined by what's printed on your government ID card. You don't wake up each morning thinking you're 5'10" tall because the government says so. You don't go through your day thinking of yourself as a green-eyed person because the government says that's the kind of person you are. Why would you care what gender the government has you down for?
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:31 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
None of the information on my driver's license has anything to do with how I live my life. The whole point of "freedom" is that your identity isn't defined by what's printed on your government ID card. You don't wake up each morning thinking you're 5'10" tall because the government says so. You don't go through your day thinking of yourself as a green-eyed person because the government says that's the kind of person you are. Why would you care what gender the government has you down for?
We are a highly individualized society and have promoted individualism (rugged or otherwise) over group welfare for quite some time. These are the results.
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Who are you yelling at?

Also, yay non-binary people! And yay Oregon!

I forsee some problems. If a penile non-binary wants to be put in a holding cell with the women, do the police oblige? If a vaginal non-binary needs to be strip-searched, does a female cop have to be present? Does "non-binary" on the driver's license actually have any practical effect?
It will give them major problems going to the bathroom in the south.
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
None of the information on my driver's license has anything to do with how I live my life. The whole point of "freedom" is that your identity isn't defined by what's printed on your government ID card. You don't wake up each morning thinking you're 5'10" tall because the government says so. You don't go through your day thinking of yourself as a green-eyed person because the government says that's the kind of person you are. Why would you care what gender the government has you down for?
Why does the government care about my gender? You liberals and your insistence on big government collecting personal data...
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Old 19th June 2017, 10:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Thats a good point ... this kind of thing is very popular nowadays ... like vegans and gluten free warriors
Or gay marriage.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:03 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not factual. Apparent.

"Pulled oven an individual for excessive speed. Apparently brown haired. Apparently blue eyed. Apparently about 5'8". Apparently male-"

"I'm not male! I'm non-binary!"

"-Apparently male."
Height, eye and hair color are objective. Speed is objective.

There is an argument that gender is not. I am not aware of any argument that height is not. Outside of freshmen philosophy classes, I am not aware or arguments that color is objective. I see a difference here.
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:40 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It will give them major problems going to the bathroom in the south.
They check your driver's license in southern bathrooms?
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:42 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why does the government care about my gender? You liberals and your insistence on big government collecting personal data...
Government IDs can be a contentious subject. But to me, at least, the idea of a driver's license ID makes a certain amount of sense.

Sarcasm aside, do you have a problem with government ID cards as such?
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Old 19th June 2017, 02:53 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by beren View Post
Height, eye and hair color are objective. Speed is objective.
Not always. The cop doesn't check your weight on a scale, or pull out a yardstick to verify your height. Hair goes grey over time, or can be dyed, or shaved. The cop is making a rough estimate in any case.

Quote:
There is an argument that gender is not.
Well, "penis" is a pretty objective observation. But the cop isn't even checking that. Does it really matter to the cop, your nuanced sense of what your secondary sexual characteristics mean to your self-identity? Does it really matter to you, to get that reflected on your driver's license?

Presumably most (all?) non-binaries are functional enough to pick a restroom when they have to pee. "I don't *really* think of myself as a woman, but all I really want to do is take a leak and move on. There's more to life than getting stuck on gendered bathrooms."

And there's more to life than getting stuck on nuanced gender identities on driver's licenses. But whatevs. It clearly matters a lot to some people, and they've gotten something they've been fighting for. So good for them! I hope it's everything they imagined it would be.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:08 PM   #29
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I get the majority of non binary (or what ever the word of the moment is) people's issues and frustation it must cause, but I can't for the the life of me see how this one is such a big deal in amongst the others.

Quote:
In September, Keenan was able to change her New York City-issued birth certificate. Previously reading "female" in the sex field, it is now accurate for the first time in Keenan's life: It says "intersex."
Why the need to change history when zero people had any idea what you would grow into, except whether you had a knob or not or both?

Obviously it's a major issue for some, but just seems a bit OTT in the has to be perfect side of things
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Government IDs can be a contentious subject. But to me, at least, the idea of a driver's license ID makes a certain amount of sense.

Sarcasm aside, do you have a problem with government ID cards as such?
Nope. I just don't see why it would be a problem to have more than two options for sex. "Possible inconvenience to the penal system" doesn't strike me as significant enough to even count as a problem.
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:26 PM   #31
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If the worry is that picking a different sex on your driver's license will cause difficulty in identifying you, you should suggest they start including photographs on licenses. That would be a startling novelty.
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:04 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Nope. I just don't see why it would be a problem to have more than two options for sex. "Possible inconvenience to the penal system" doesn't strike me as significant enough to even count as a problem.
Enh. Possible inconvenience to the penal system doesn't seem like that big of a problem.

But answer me this: Why don't you have a problem with government ID?
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Enh. Possible inconvenience to the penal system doesn't seem like that big of a problem.

But answer me this: Why don't you have a problem with government ID?
Why don't you have a problem with the orbit of Neptune?

I don't know why you expect me to have a problem with government ID.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:10 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why don't you have a problem with the orbit of Neptune?

I don't know why you expect me to have a problem with government ID.
On the contrary; your comments have led me to believe you don't have a problem with government ID. What I'm asking is, why?
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:15 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, yay non-binary people!
That's like saying "yay dragons."
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渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

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Old 19th June 2017, 05:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why does the government care about my gender?
Why does the government care about your height?
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渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

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Old 19th June 2017, 05:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
On the contrary; your comments have led me to believe you don't have a problem with government ID. What I'm asking is, why?
It's difficult to answer a negative. Why don't you have a problem with the orbit of Neptune? was an example.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:31 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's difficult to answer a negative. Why don't you have a problem with the orbit of Neptune? was an example.
Oh, that's easy. The orbit of neptune is the best orbit, objectively. Ergo, no problem.
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渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

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Old 19th June 2017, 05:57 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Haha well that clears it up!

I knew my choice of word would be a problem. So can my license say I'm female if I have a penis, and only a penis? The whole penis and nothing but the penis?

Can I alter my apparent date of birth? I look so young...

If you were just a penis, I'd say you were being a dick.
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:00 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's like saying "yay dragons."
Really?
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