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Tags american culture , Rural values , urban values

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Old 18th June 2017, 09:50 AM   #1
William Parcher
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Poll Shows Cultural Divide Between Rural And Urban

America’s cultural divide runs deep. While rural and urban Americans share some economic challenges, they frequently diverge on questions of culture and values. On few issues are they more at odds than immigration.

Originally Posted by The Washington Post
The political divide between rural and urban America is more cultural than it is economic, rooted in rural residents’ deep misgivings about the nation’s rapidly changing demographics, their sense that Christianity is under siege and their perception that the federal government caters most to the needs of people in big cities, according to a wide-ranging poll that examines cultural attitudes across the United States.

The Washington Post-Kaiser Family Foundation survey of nearly 1,700 Americans — including more than 1,000 adults living in rural areas and small towns — finds deep-seated kinship in rural America, coupled with a stark sense of estrangement from people who live in urban areas. Nearly 7 in 10 rural residents say their values differ from people who live in big cities, including about 4 in 10 who say their values are “very different.”...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph.../rural-america
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Old 18th June 2017, 10:18 AM   #2
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While trying to push certain bills through the state legislature I noticed that the divide was more rural vs urban than democrat vs republican. This is nothing new to me.

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Old 18th June 2017, 11:25 AM   #3
Red Baron Farms
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
While trying to push certain bills through the state legislature I noticed that the divide was more rural vs urban than democrat vs republican. This is nothing new to me.

Ranb
That's because of the false dichotomy. Currently both parties are urban based, so it's rich city folks against poor city folks and small town USA crumbles.

All by design though. Rural America has been targeted for elimination since the early 1970's at least. Some say even earlier.
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Old 18th June 2017, 12:16 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
That's because of the false dichotomy. Currently both parties are urban based, so it's rich city folks against poor city folks and small town USA crumbles.

All by design though. Rural America has been targeted for elimination since the early 1970's at least. Some say even earlier.
CT threads are That-a-way ==>
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Old 18th June 2017, 01:11 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
That's because of the false dichotomy. Currently both parties are urban based, so it's rich city folks against poor city folks and small town USA crumbles.

All by design though. Rural America has been targeted for elimination since the early 1970's at least. Some say even earlier.
This is patently false. No one is targeting rural America for elimination. It is simply that economic pressures combined with automation has ravaged rural America and that has been a steady process for at least a hundred years. In 1930, the average farmer fed 4 people and today that number has risen to 155. Fewer and fewer children take over the family farm although I have read a few articles that suggest that could be changing.

I have no doubt that Christianity is feeling the pressures of modernity. That's because it is 2000 year old bs. And this poses a greater threat in rural America because church plays a more central role in their lives than it does with most people in the cities. It's about community. And that is synonymous with the church. As a former Christian I miss the church very much. The religion, not so much.

.
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Old 18th June 2017, 01:26 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
That's because of the false dichotomy.....
Nope. While I claimed there was a divide, it was based on the opinions of a few gun control bills and not anything else. The resources controlled by those in rural areas are of enough significance that those rural people are going to remain a large influence in the years to come.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:19 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
CT threads are That-a-way ==>
Conspiracies require some sort of secret devious plot. That does not apply when it is advertised as a good thing and publically announced.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:27 PM   #8
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There was a cultural divide between city and country probably as soon as the first city sprang up in Sumeria. It's one of the constants of history.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:30 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is patently false. No one is targeting rural America for elimination. It is simply that economic pressures combined with automation has ravaged rural America and that has been a steady process for at least a hundred years. In 1930, the average farmer fed 4 people and today that number has risen to 155. Fewer and fewer children take over the family farm although I have read a few articles that suggest that could be changing.

I have no doubt that Christianity is feeling the pressures of modernity. That's because it is 2000 year old bs. And this poses a greater threat in rural America because church plays a more central role in their lives than it does with most people in the cities. It's about community. And that is synonymous with the church. As a former Christian I miss the church very much. The religion, not so much.

.
I ma a skeptic when it comes to religion in general, but, given it's history, I think Christianity can survive this storm as it has others.
I think you are making some genersations about rural life and the churches I would like to see more evidence of.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:35 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is patently false. No one is targeting rural America for elimination. It is simply that economic pressures combined with automation has ravaged rural America and that has been a steady process for at least a hundred years. In 1930, the average farmer fed 4 people and today that number has risen to 155. Fewer and fewer children take over the family farm although I have read a few articles that suggest that could be changing.

I have no doubt that Christianity is feeling the pressures of modernity. That's because it is 2000 year old bs. And this poses a greater threat in rural America because church plays a more central role in their lives than it does with most people in the cities. It's about community. And that is synonymous with the church. As a former Christian I miss the church very much. The religion, not so much.

.
Good example where it is advertised as a good thing. But the transition to full mechanised tractors was completed shortly after WWII

What devastated Rural America financially happened much later. It was planned and devised by this man:

Quote:
Earl Butz

His mantra to farmers was "get big or get out," and he urged farmers to plant commodity crops like corn "from fencerow to fencerow." These policy shifts coincided with the rise of major agribusiness corporations, and the declining financial stability of the small family farm
The infamous quote that revealed Earl was a bigoted Butz-hole…

A reflection on the lasting legacy of 1970s USDA Secretary Earl Butz

Top 10 Worst Cabinet Members - TIME

His campaign to drive farmers off the land, the so called "get big or get out" campaign to destabilize farmers financially is very real, not some make believe conspiracy theory. It involved very real Agricultural policy and billions of directed subsidies to accomplish his set goal. But that of course isn't proof he succeeded. After all there have been countless government policies that have failed to meet their goals.

So lets see if the stats back it up.
In 1945 27% of farmers in US were forced to work off farm to earn a decent living. By 2002 93% of farmers had off-farm income to make ends meet.

Source: Compiled by Economic
Research Service, USDA, using
data from Census of Agriculture
and Census of the United States

In 2012 the average age of farmers was 58.3 with over 20 times more farmers over age 75 as under 25. This has been growing steadily every year, as income:cost of living ratio has dropped. When new young farmers can’t afford to get in, old farmers can’t retire. 52.2% of those farmers principle income off farm and only 46.1% of farmers with net positive income from farming.

Source: USDA-NASS, Census of Agriculture

In 1950 farmers received 41% of the food dollar spent by consumers. Now it is 17.4% on average. Certain things like commodity grains even as low as 3%.

Source: USDA-ERS

The entire economic foundation of the heartland of this great country completely gutted by one evil man’s policies. Never in the history of US politics has anyone ever so thoroughly devastated the constituency they were supposed to protect. Exactly why the guy can be removed from office in disgrace, thrown in jail and completely universally despised; yet his Ag policies remain, though slightly modified, is beyond comprehension to me.
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:39 PM   #11
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Christianity itself was an urban religion. That's why the early ones called nonbelievers "pagans". It means "hicks".
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Old 18th June 2017, 02:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
when it is advertised as a good thing and publically announced.
It is a good thing. I was raised on a farm, but would never go back to that lifestyle by choice.

The divide between rural and urban isn't due to geography. Rural residents’ values are different because they are different, not because of where they live. They live in rural areas because they want to be isolated from change, while those who were willing to change moved to the cities.

Quote:
The entire economic foundation of the heartland of this great country completely gutted by one evil man’s policies.
The problem with your conspiracy theory is that the same trends have occurred in other countries.
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Old 18th June 2017, 03:39 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
It is a good thing.
Claim without evidence.
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I was raised on a farm, but would never go back to that lifestyle by choice.
Meaningless anecdote. But obviously internally inconsistent, because if it was so good (subjectively your words) then you wouldn't be saying "I'll never go back".

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The divide between rural and urban isn't due to geography. Rural residents’ values are different because they are different, not because of where they live. They live in rural areas because they want to be isolated from change, while those who were willing to change moved to the cities.
No that's what you did, and why. Meaningless anecdote regarding Rural USA.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The problem with your conspiracy theory is that the same trends have occurred in other countries.
By design as well:
How American Food Aid Keeps the Third World Hungry

Food Dumping [Aid] Maintains Poverty

Behind India’s ‘Epidemic’ Of Farmer Suicides

American Food Aid: Disruption and Development in Haiti

Drought, Corruption, and War: Syria's Agricultural Crisis

You are not so good at this whole skeptic thing are you? I mean critical thinking with evidence rather than spewing whatever happens to sound good to you at the moment?
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Old 18th June 2017, 04:59 PM   #14
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The move to big business farming is somehow the fault of big city liberals?
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Old 18th June 2017, 05:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The move to big business farming is somehow the fault of big city liberals?
The unholy alliance between Neolibs and Neocons, yes. Completely gutted the entire economic base of rural america and redirected it to Chicago and New York.
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Old 18th June 2017, 05:05 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The move to big business farming is somehow the fault of big city liberals?
I know yeah.
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Old 18th June 2017, 05:24 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
There was a cultural divide between city and country probably as soon as the first city sprang up in Sumeria. It's one of the constants of history.
As a kid, I remember being boggled by the fact that New York City was not the capital of New York State. But if you look around the country, very few states have their biggest city as the capital (Arizona and Massachusetts are notable exceptions).
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Old 18th June 2017, 05:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The move to big business farming is somehow the fault of big city liberals?
Neolibs...yes.

Neoliberalism – the ideology at the root of all our problems
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Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 18th June 2017 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:41 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
As a kid, I remember being boggled by the fact that New York City was not the capital of New York State. But if you look around the country, very few states have their biggest city as the capital (Arizona and Massachusetts are notable exceptions).
Atlanta
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Old 18th June 2017, 07:44 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Atlanta
Indianapolis
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Old 18th June 2017, 09:28 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Indianapolis
Little Rock
Denver
Boise
Des Moines
Jackson
Columbus
OKC
Providence
Columbia, SC
Salt Lake City
Charleston, WV
Cheyenne
Honolulu

~ 1/3 = "very few" indeed. :-p
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Old 19th June 2017, 03:49 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The move to big business farming is somehow the fault of big city liberals?
No, it's all the fault of one man! [/ct]
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:34 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
The move to big business farming is somehow the fault of big city liberals?
Exactly they pioneered the green revolution in the 1700 and it has been all down hill from there.
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Old 19th June 2017, 04:38 AM   #24
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A poll was needed, seriously?
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
As a kid, I remember being boggled by the fact that New York City was not the capital of New York State. But if you look around the country, very few states have their biggest city as the capital (Arizona and Massachusetts are notable exceptions).
For those that aren't, what were the criteria ?

Were they the largest (or close to) when the state capital was chosen ?

Was the choice made because they are geographically central within the state and/or at the time had really goof transport links ?
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Old 19th June 2017, 06:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
For those that aren't, what were the criteria ?

Were they the largest (or close to) when the state capital was chosen ?

Was the choice made because they are geographically central within the state and/or at the time had really goof transport links ?
I know for Wisconsin, Madison was selected because one of the politicians owned a bunch of land on the the isthmus. I think it was Jame Duane Doty. Madison wasn't even a town at the time of selection.

Back to the OP, he poll is unsurprising. People living in rural areas have less diversity and therefore fewer outside ideas being introduced therefore they are less likely to change. However, I wonder how mass media impact this now?
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Old 19th June 2017, 07:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
No, it's all the fault of one man! [/ct]
Nonsense. You think Butz was the only one that expressed that position? Politics 101, the iron rule of oligarchy.
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Old 19th June 2017, 08:05 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by seayakin View Post
I know for Wisconsin, Madison was selected because one of the politicians owned a bunch of land on the the isthmus. I think it was Jame Duane Doty. Madison wasn't even a town at the time of selection.

Back to the OP, he poll is unsurprising. People living in rural areas have less diversity and therefore fewer outside ideas being introduced therefore they are less likely to change. However, I wonder how mass media impact this now?
Probably the ones not glued to the Ministry of Propaganda Fox News all the time move away to the cities as well.
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Old 19th June 2017, 08:09 AM   #29
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The great American fallout: how small towns came to resent cities
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...lican-democrat

Quote:
Observers wonder when “these people” will wake up and realise that Trump does not have their interests at heart. But rural folks have gotten used to a system that does not have their interests at heart.

In fact, the Trump supporters I spent time with in rural communities don’t seem to believe that even their president is going to do much for them.

The Monday morning after the 2016 election, in a gas station in a logging town in north-west Wisconsin, I asked a group of retired and working men what they thought Trump would do to help them.

Ron, a logger, replied: “Nothing. Nothing. We’re used to living in poverty, we’re used to it. It ain’t never going to change. How many times we got to tell you that? But you don’t listen.”

He told me the country had to try something different, even if it wasn’t going to help his town.

Why?

“Because this country has got to change. It’s wrong. And when you got guys that are on these programmes driving around $60,000 pick-ups, it’s not fair to the people who have been going to work all their life.”

His left-leaning friend, Mitch, chimed in.

“I agree with that now, and I’m on the other side of the fence. I vote mostly Democratic, but I hate the giveaways. I can’t stand it. It’s wrong. It’s real wrong.”
I've heard similar myths to the $60K pick-ups "those guys" get on "programmes". Human nature seems to make us prone to them.

Quote:
It is no secret that Trump benefited from the support of voters in rural places. But the rural resentment is bigger than Trump. It preceded him, and will outlast him. The system is rigged against many workers, in most types of places. But because it is currently a winning strategy to draw voters’ attention to “undeserving” others, who are conveniently associated with cities in the public mind, and because so many of our cultural divides correspond with geographic ones, we should expect to keep hearing that the injustice is not between the people and the system, but between rural folks and our cities.
For some reason Trump's inherited wealth does not make him one of those "undeserving others". Yet. It's still one part of the poor against another.
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Old 19th June 2017, 08:10 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Probably the ones not glued to the Ministry of Propaganda Fox News all the time move away to the cities as well.
And who wants to be the only black family in a rural town? They will rape your son with a coathanger and it is chalked up to boys being boys.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...john-rk-howard

That is good old fashion american values there.
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Old 19th June 2017, 08:19 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly they pioneered the green revolution in the 1700 and it has been all down hill from there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

Quote:
Enclosure (sometimes inclosure) was the legal process in England during the 18th century of enclosing a number of small landholdings to create one larger farm.[1] Once enclosed, use of the land became restricted to the owner, and it ceased to be common land for communal use. In England and Wales the term is also used for the process that ended the ancient system of arable farming in open fields. Under enclosure, such land is fenced (enclosed) and deeded or entitled to one or more owners. The process of enclosure began to be a widespread feature of the English agricultural landscape during the 16th century. By the 19th century, unenclosed commons had become largely restricted to rough pasture in mountainous areas and to relatively small parts of the lowlands.
Been there, done that, had the riots and rick-burning. Followed by mass-transportation of the rural excess to the Appalachians.
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Old 19th June 2017, 09:53 AM   #32
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Most Americans live in suburbs, which is quite a different lifestyle and culture from either "rural" or "urban".
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Most Americans live in suburbs, which is quite a different lifestyle and culture from either "rural" or "urban".
I think that is a good point and easy to forget in these discussions.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:29 AM   #34
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The Great Plains have been in a steady population decline for over 100 years. Rural flight is happening in just about every country. Cities are more efficient and provides more opportunities to people. We need less farmers, loggers, and miners and we need less people to service rural communities or the people servicing them no longer need to by physically colocated with rural people. It isn't some plot or "neoliberalism", it is simply technological progress.
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:34 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
The Great Plains have been in a steady population decline for over 100 years. Rural flight is happening in just about every country. Cities are more efficient and provides more opportunities to people. We need less farmers, loggers, and miners and we need less people to service rural communities or the people servicing them no longer need to by physically colocated with rural people. It isn't some plot or "neoliberalism", it is simply technological progress.
There also were small rural factory towns that seem to be going away. As the need for unskilled labor in a factory declines what is there to draw employers to rural areas to open factories?
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Old 19th June 2017, 11:44 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Poverty is falling faster right now than at any time in history thanks to globalization and market liberalization.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:48 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
As a kid, I remember being boggled by the fact that New York City was not the capital of New York State. But if you look around the country, very few states have their biggest city as the capital (Arizona and Massachusetts are notable exceptions).
I live in Sacramento, tell me about it........

I also think we have to be careful about lumping all rural communites together.
There is a LOT of difference between a small town in the Central Valley of California, a Small Town in Wyoming, a Small town In Kansas,and a small town in Georgia.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:52 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by seayakin View Post
I think that is a good point and easy to forget in these discussions.
ANd there is a gray line between Surburban and Rural....quite a few rural communites are finding themselves being transformed into Surburbs.

A example in my own neighborhood is Placerville, which is rapidly becoming a bedroom community for Sacramento.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:56 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The great American fallout: how small towns came to resent cities
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...lican-democrat


I've heard similar myths to the $60K pick-ups "those guys" get on "programmes". Human nature seems to make us prone to them.



For some reason Trump's inherited wealth does not make him one of those "undeserving others". Yet. It's still one part of the poor against another.
Once again, Small Towns have ALWAYS resented big cities,the whole folklore of the "City Slicker " shows that.
And Big Cities have already regarded small towns with a certain contempt;all the "hick" jokes.
And this is nothing new:In Ancient Rome we know residents of the City ridiculed people who lived in the provinces.
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Old 19th June 2017, 12:58 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANd there is a gray line between Surburban and Rural....quite a few rural communites are finding themselves being transformed into Surburbs.

A example in my own neighborhood is Placerville, which is rapidly becoming a bedroom community for Sacramento.
That holds for vacation areas also, the Berkshires is an example. The southern Berkshires in Massachusetts have been taken over by a large extent by wealthy New Yorker's building expensive second homes. The old time locals can't afford to live there and have to leave to urban/suburban areas to find work. This is not due to any grand conspiracy but the economic reality that the portlandatheist mentioned of factories leaving areas. New England is certainly filled with depressed old mill towns.
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