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Tags gun incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 10th July 2016, 08:03 PM   #361
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Lesee-Stopped 52 times, CCW from the town he used to live in- were all those stops while carrying, so no probs until this cop? Or stops in the old town before CCW?
Time line?
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Old 10th July 2016, 08:45 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Anyway, my point is that I now gather the shot man had 52 previous traffic stops to his name, and Ranb describes having been stopped in six states. Just how regularly does the average US driver get pulled over?
Every time I was pulled over it was for a legitimate infraction except for the time the officer thought I was allowing a child under 12 (actually my 40 year old wife) to ride in the front seat.

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Old 10th July 2016, 10:00 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Lesee-Stopped 52 times, CCW from the town he used to live in- were all those stops while carrying, so no probs until this cop? Or stops in the old town before CCW?
Time line?
Over a period of 14 years
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Old 10th July 2016, 10:02 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Good try, but "tragic" is unnecessary, and "brought about by the officer" clearly indicates the officer played a major role. But extra points for the use of "presence of a gun" to imply that the gun itself had anything to do with it instead of the cop shooting as soon as the guy said "I have a gun-." Also, penalty for the use of the present tense when a shift to past tense would be justifiable.

7/10, would be involved in a related incident with again.

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Old 11th July 2016, 03:30 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Also, nationwide statistics mean little when responding to a situation where you expect hostility. Whether it is due to reliable information that a suspect might be armed, or an officer's intuition (justified or otherwise), it is impossible, despite any training, to completely remove the human element. Heightened awareness, focus, panic set in differently for individuals.
It is unrealistic to expect robotic sound judgement from all of these people in the heat of the moment.
Police officers are expected to panic and it is the job of the public to keep them calm and not set of their propensity for violence?
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Old 11th July 2016, 03:34 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Since the claim is about what I think (the sentence starts with "I don't think...") the literal answer is: "I am the evidence."

However, if you mean how do I support my opinion, probably in the same drawer as "most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops". There isn't good evidence about activity that by definition is being covered up.
And you have no evidence for your belief that most cops are good cops.

This article hits what a lot of the problem is.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977...police-officer

The problem is that police culture puts more emphasis on supporting your fellow officers even if they kill someone that it does on doing the right thing.
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Old 11th July 2016, 03:36 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Correct, but that's not the reasoning the 'fellow travellers' critics are employing. They're talking about how just by being silent and not repudiating everything about the category, one is giving encouragement to others in the category to do morally wrong things. For example, that a Mennonite pacifist (who has already rejected all violence) is still accountable for a Baptist's abortion clinic bombings by not repudiating their shared 'Christianity'.
Kind of like how people want muslims to disavow terrorism just for being muslim. Of course we will never see any officer punished for covering up the actions of their partner who murdered someone. That would be as crazy as prosecuting police caught planting evidence.
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Old 11th July 2016, 03:38 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Something is seriously wrong when a woman whose partner has just been shot and whose kid is in the back seat is calm, while the person who is supposedly the authority figure and has a drawn gun is screaming like a little girl
We have to expect our cops to panic and be out of control, it is the public's responsibility to calm them down. Failure to do so gets what it deserves. This law abiding gun owner failed to properly account for police panic and died as a result as he clearly deserves.
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Old 11th July 2016, 03:40 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
It was the quantitative part of the claim I was pushing back on. And I guess the scope of the infractions involved. Would they look the other way if their partner didn't polish their boot with an approved brand of polish? Sure, probably 100% of them would.

Would they look the other way if their partner violated a serious law, a life-threating situation? I'm thinking very few would, and there doesn't seem to be compelling evidence to believe otherwise.
And why are all the shootings on video where there are multiple officers who do exactly that not evidence? Find me the case where someone actually reporting their partner for shooting someone and planting evidence instead of it coming out on video.
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Old 11th July 2016, 03:44 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
The anti-gun nutters on this board have finally found themselves a 'gun lover' they can support, what a strange turn of events.
And the gun lovers on this now have to show that someone having a gun is scary and a good reason to freak out and kill the person with the gun. Clearly it is correct to be very afraid of anyone with a CCW licience.
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Old 11th July 2016, 03:47 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You missed a few.

Tamir Rice - 12 yrs old holding a toy gun Murdered
Walter Scott - fleeing from cop, shot in the back Murdered Cop in this case charged with murder.
Covered for by fellow cops
Quote:
Laquan McDonald - teen with three inch knife he wasn't threatening anyone with, walking away from cops shot 16 times by a cop who had just arrived on the scene. Cop had to be stopped by other officers when he continued to shoot the lifeless body of the teen.
None of whom felt it necessary to actually report anything wrong happening.
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Old 11th July 2016, 03:51 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
I don't see anybody saying that (admittedly, I only read through the first page). Everybody in that thread seems to be agreeing that the cop screwed up and panicked and should be in jail.

So why are you implying that people were blaming Jones for the incident or defending the cop? I don't see any of that.
He failed to treat the officer as the panicky violent individual that you have to treat all police officers as, as such he deserves what he had coming and the decorated heroic cop shouldn't be blamed for one little mistake.
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Old 11th July 2016, 05:36 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
How did you act the first time you shot someone?

How many times do you think this woman has had the person sitting next to her shot and killed? And yet she handles the situation infinitely better than the person who should have been trained to handle high-stress situations.

Yes, killing someone is not something you can entirely prepare for, but don't pretend he couldn't have handled the situation better. And don't pretend that this doesn't show him to be horribly unfit for the job.

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Old 11th July 2016, 05:47 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would say that the likelihood of a CCW permit holder out in his car with partner and child is not going to suddenly draw and fire on a police officer.

The cop who killed the driver is going to exaggerate the actions of the driver so as to try and justify his actions to himself and others. Fact is the cop grossly over reacted to a low threat situation, panicked and fired.
But you have to expect the cops to panic and open fire. That is police interactions 101 people seriously.
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:02 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
I went back and looked at what I was replying to, and yeah, I messed up. I apologize.

My intent was to compare what you posted to that crap site Conservative Treehouse, who I absolutely do put on the same level as Birth of a Nation. But that didn't come through.
Thank You. I understand emotions will run high in these types of threads and mistakes will happen.
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:28 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He failed to treat the officer as the panicky violent individual that you have to treat all police officers as, as such he deserves what he had coming and the decorated heroic cop shouldn't be blamed for one little mistake.
So in answer to my question "who is saying this" your response is "nobody is saying this, it's a pure straw man."

Yes?
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:38 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
So in answer to my question "who is saying this" your response is "nobody is saying this, it's a pure straw man."

Yes?
That is how many people are advising people treat police officers at all times, as the violent unstable people so many of them clearly are. He failed to do that, so he deserves what he got just like in the case in the OP.
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:41 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is how many people are advising people treat police officers at all times,
So, again, you claimed that people were defending the cop in the other thread. When asked to back up your claim, you ignore the request. Repeatedly. Is that right?
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:43 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
So, again, you claimed that people were defending the cop in the other thread. When asked to back up your claim, you ignore the request. Repeatedly. Is that right?
I am applying peoples logic toward this victim to the victim of that shooting. The logic should clearly hold if it has value.
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:43 AM   #380
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To refresh everyone's memory, here was your post:
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But what did Mr. Jones do wrong to cause this to happen? He really should have done things differently and not gotten shot I am sure. Just go back to the thread here from the time that happened.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283366
You depicted this as a thread where Jones was clearly an innocent victim but everyone was still blaming him. And yet, nobody did so, in that thread or here. Right?
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:49 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
To refresh everyone's memory, here was your post:

You depicted this as a thread where Jones was clearly an innocent victim but everyone was still blaming him. And yet, nobody did so, in that thread or here. Right?

Then the defenders of the police have gotten to expect much lower bar for violence by police since then. Now they blame someone for getting shot while doing exactly what he was supposed to, they they figured that shouldn't be enough to get shot.
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:52 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
To refresh everyone's memory, here was your post:

You depicted this as a thread where Jones was clearly an innocent victim but everyone was still blaming him. And yet, nobody did so, in that thread or here. Right?
Well, there's always one:
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I watched the video, fully expecting the cop to be completely in the wrong. But the guy did go back into the van quickly, which seems to have precipitated the problem.
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:54 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Then the defenders of the police have gotten to expect much lower bar for violence by police since then. Now they blame someone for getting shot while doing exactly what he was supposed to, they they figured that shouldn't be enough to get shot.
Nope, the people blaming the guy in this thread are blaming him for ignoring what the cop said and violating what CCWs are trained to do. Cop said don't move, keep your hands where I can see them. The passenger instead reached for his ID.

That's very different than what happened to Mr. Jones. Your straw men are getting downright dishonest.
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Old 11th July 2016, 07:59 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Nope, the people blaming the guy in this thread are blaming him for ignoring what the cop said and violating what CCWs are trained to do.
OF course this isn't even remotely standard in such training. In many cases the individuals are required to notify the police exactly like what got him killed.

And these same people seem to think guns are not threatening but then jump to explain how a cop would find that terribly threatening.
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Old 11th July 2016, 08:04 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Nope, the people blaming the guy in this thread are blaming him for ignoring what the cop said and violating what CCWs are trained to do. Cop said don't move, keep your hands where I can see them. The passenger instead reached for his ID.

That's very different than what happened to Mr. Jones. Your straw men are getting downright dishonest.
You're 100% confident that is how the exchange occurred? Because I don't see evidence for it.
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Old 11th July 2016, 08:06 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
You're 100% confident that is how the exchange occurred? Because I don't see evidence for it.
But no cop would ever shoot someone for doing what they are told, well again after that first one anyway.
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Old 11th July 2016, 08:10 AM   #387
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And no cop, being human, would ever remember things differently than they had actually occurred.

I probably missed it, but was there a body cam in this case that just hasn't been released yet?
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Old 11th July 2016, 08:29 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
OF course this isn't even remotely standard in such training. In many cases the individuals are required to notify the police exactly like what got him killed.
Show me one training manual or guideline for CCW that says "if the cop tells you to keep your hands where he can see them, reach for your ID."
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Old 11th July 2016, 08:54 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Show me one training manual or guideline for CCW that says "if the cop tells you to keep your hands where he can see them, reach for your ID."
Got the video of that? Or is the cop in this case so much more trustworthy than the decorated cop in the other one?

It is easy to see the cop coming up and demanding ID first and the driver then mentioning that he has a CC permit. Obeying the officer and giving them information that they need.

Now this isn't treating the police as the over reacting, excessively violent prone and constantly terrified that you need to do to survive an encounter with them but then neither did the other guy.
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Old 11th July 2016, 08:55 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I'm middle aged white and have a short hair cut, I live in Ontario Canada.

When I get pulled over for a bad light or speeding or whatever, I put the window down all the way, I pull over asap, shut off my car, and place my arms on the top of the steering wheel with my hands RIGHT UP by the WINDSHIELD.

When the officer asked for my ID I tell him were it is and ask if it's OK to retrieve it now, and I do so slowly with one hand.

If I can do that here ... everyone can do that everywhere.
I find it disconcerting that you get pulled over so often that you have a ritual for traffic stops. I'm 44 and I've been pulled over maybe 5-6 times in my life.
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:08 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by ZirconBlue View Post
I find it disconcerting that you get pulled over so often that you have a ritual for traffic stops. I'm 44 and I've been pulled over maybe 5-6 times in my life.
I've been pulled over zero times and I'm 40.
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:10 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got the video of that?
Does that mean you concede that reaching for your ID when the cop says not to move would not be according to CCW training?
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:18 AM   #393
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From the girlfrind: "He let the officer know that he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet and the officer just shot him in his arm," Reynolds said as she broadcast the details of Wednesday's evening shooting on Facebook."

Sounds like he did it backwards. Should have said "I have CCW permit" while keeping his hands still.
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:24 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Does that mean you concede that reaching for your ID when the cop says not to move would not be according to CCW training?
And there is no actual evidence that the cop told him not to move. There is one account that the cop asked for ID. Now sure cops don't have to give possible order like demanding people not move while also demanding they get their ID out.
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:34 AM   #395
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There is no actual evidence for anything what happened.
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:37 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
There is no actual evidence for anything what happened.
I am wondering how bad the dash cam video makes the cop look so that it hasn't been released yet.
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:40 AM   #397
AdamSK
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And
Does this "And..." imply that you concede the point?

If he moved after being told not to, if he reached for something after being told to keep his hands visible, then he was not acting consistent with CCW training. Yes?
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:50 AM   #398
Dr.Sid
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am wondering how bad the dash cam video makes the cop look so that it hasn't been released yet.
Dash cam would not show anything .. we have to know what the cop said, and what the man did, and we are talking about pretty small movements.
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Old 11th July 2016, 09:54 AM   #399
AdamSK
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
You're 100% confident that is how the exchange occurred? Because I don't see evidence for it.
Nope, nowhere near 100% confident. Hopefully the facts become clearer soon.

I would particularly like confirmation about whether Castile actually had a CCW permit, and whether he really did reach in the direction of the gun on his thigh after the police officer told him not to.
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Old 11th July 2016, 10:13 AM   #400
Upchurch
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Does this "And..." imply that you concede the point?

If he moved after being told not to, if he reached for something after being told to keep his hands visible, then he was not acting consistent with CCW training. Yes?
Since you're being hyper-pedantic, are you going to concede that you were actually wrong about this point?
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
To refresh everyone's memory, here was your post:

You depicted this as a thread where Jones was clearly an innocent victim but everyone was still blaming him. And yet, nobody did so, in that thread or here. Right?
I only ask because you never came back to it after I produced a quote of someone doing just just that.
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