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Tags gun incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 7th July 2016, 06:56 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
From the linked articel:


Bad idea, telling a cop at a stop that you have a gun while you are reaching for something the cop can't see. A more experienced cop would likely have told him to stop reaching and get out of the car. It's far safer to tell the cop either before or after, but not while, reaching for your ID.
You don't know this. Are you trying to excuse this cop? What is wrong with people that feel the need to blame the victim?

The guy is a cafeteria manager in a school, no record. A calm woman tells the hysterical cop, "you told him to get his ID, he was reaching for his wallet."

The hysterical cop screams that he told him to keep his hands where he could see them.

I believe the calm woman over the hysterical cop, myself.
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Old 7th July 2016, 06:57 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I'd like to think I would be clearly narrating my intentions to provide aid and to hell with the consequences.
Yeah right!
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Old 7th July 2016, 06:58 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't know this. Are you trying to excuse this cop? What is wrong with people that feel the need to blame the victim?
For one thing, it's important that people know that these incidents happen because the "victim" acted badly - and if they don't act badly, this won't happen to them.

By the way, if you're being robbed and somebody trains a gun on you, my advice is exactly the same. Don't move when you are told not to move. And, again, if you move and get shot, no sympathy.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:00 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
For one thing, it's important that people know that these incidents happen because the "victim" acted badly - and if they don't act badly, this won't happen to them.

By the way, if you're being robbed and somebody trains a gun on you, my advice is exactly the same. Don't move when you are told not to move. And, again, if you move and get shot, no sympathy.
There really isn't a difference between cops and felons then. It is your job to keep them calm and they have no responsibilty
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:01 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
For one thing, it's important that people know that these incidents happen because the "victim" acted badly - and if they don't act badly, this won't happen to them.

By the way, if you're being robbed and somebody trains a gun on you, my advice is exactly the same. Don't move when you are told not to move. And, again, if you move and get shot, no sympathy.
I get the sense that there'd be no sympathy from you regardless of circumstance.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:03 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Just a few points. You are a young black man, with a CCW, driving around with a "busted taillight".

This is likely not the best idea to start with.

Upon being stopped, you'd think the lad would have kept his hands on the steering wheel, told the police officer clearly that he was a CCW permit holder, and that he was armed.... And asked for directions.

We get the impression that he was fishing for his wallet and perhaps the officer saw the pistol? That's not clear.
Not too long ago we had the black guy who got out of his car, the cop asked him for ID, he turned to get it out of the car and the cop shot him.

I'm sorry, I know you do everything to blame the victim here but give the citizen a break here, cop asked him for ID, he said he had a permitted weapon. There is no reason in that exchange to think the victim was going for his gun.

Where is the cop's common sense and responsibility handling his weapon in this case?

Death penalty for not reading the cop's mind?

Come on.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:04 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There really isn't a difference between cops and felons then.
Felons are more likely to go to jail if they shoot.

Quote:
It is your job to keep them calm and they have no responsibilty
The fact that you feel the need to lie about my position is pretty persuasive evidence that my actual position must not be that objectionable. So thanks.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:05 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
The cop told him not to reach for anything. He reached for something. He got shot. No sympathy.
Hysterical cop swears that's what he said. Calm witness says, "no you didn't."

Why do you believe the hysterical cop?
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:06 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Contempt of cop clearly deserving a death sentence. Here I thought people legally carrying guns were not threatening, so why the high stress? It is almost as if he found the CCW permit by a black man inherently threatening.
In this case there is not even evidence of contempt of cop.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:06 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Not too long ago we had the black guy who got out of his car, the cop asked him for ID, he turned to get it out of the car and the cop shot him.
I have never, once, seen someone give an honest summary of one of these cases. So perhaps you will name and link to the case, and we can assess if the facts fit your depiction.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:07 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Not too long ago we had the black guy who got out of his car, the cop asked him for ID, he turned to get it out of the car and the cop shot him.

I'm sorry, I know you do everything to blame the victim here but give the citizen a break here, cop asked him for ID, he said he had a permitted weapon. There is no reason in that exchange to think the victim was going for his gun.

Where is the cop's common sense and responsibility handling his weapon in this case?

Death penalty for not reading the cop's mind?

Come on.
Oh blame the heroically decorated cop for one little mistake in shooting an innocent person now. The standard is cops are never responsible for their actions and can not be held accountable and anything they do to anyone is that it was their fault.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:08 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Hysterical cop swears that's what he said. Calm witness says, "no you didn't."

Why do you believe the hysterical cop?
Why do I believe the hysterical person is less likely to be lying than the calm one?
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:09 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You of all people should recognise deliberate hyperbole when you see it.

The police here were poorly trained cowboys.

I've said it time and time again. The biggest problem with policing in the US is the vast number of police forces, each with different standards of recruitment, training and policy setting. A "force" of a hundred police can't have the same standards as the Met, the RCMP or state forces of 15,000+ in Australia.

Small forces have small mindsets and poor training. Leading to stupid events like this. Amalgamate US forces. Have state forces. Learn from others. For one of the very rare times.
That's just ignorance, though.

Only a very few megalopolis areas have their own police academies and even those are heavily regulated by the various states from which everyday law enforcement powers are derived. Academy recruits have to meet both those standards to attend the academy and the standards of the local jurisdiction. On top of that, there is a set of standards promulgated by the federal government in order to receive funding, participate in data sharing and to comply with various federal legislation.

Local forces are, by-and-large, enforcing state laws and codes (or local codes set up to comply with state models in the case of local traffic ordinances), using largely state training and policies set by state and federal courts.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
I have never, once, seen someone give an honest summary of one of these cases. So perhaps you will name and link to the case, and we can assess if the facts fit your depiction.
Me either, the cops usually lie.

If you want a link to the guy who turned to get his ID, give me a minute.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:11 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
I have never, once, seen someone give an honest summary of one of these cases. So perhaps you will name and link to the case, and we can assess if the facts fit your depiction.
That would be felon and former decorated police officer Sean Groubert.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-so...n-levar-jones/

So even doing what the police order you to do will get you shot and it will still be your fault.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Why do I believe the hysterical person is less likely to be lying than the calm one?
Because the hysterical person was not acting reasonably. There is no way in that situation that the cop was reasonable to think that victim was reaching for a gun, no way that cop took the time to clearly state put your hands on the wheel or anything.

Black guy moves, cop shoots.

If the cop really did say don't move your hands, why wouldn't the victim do that?
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:15 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't know this. Are you trying to excuse this cop? What is wrong with people that feel the need to blame the victim?

The guy is a cafeteria manager in a school, no record. A calm woman tells the hysterical cop, "you told him to get his ID, he was reaching for his wallet."

The hysterical cop screams that he told him to keep his hands where he could see them.

I believe the calm woman over the hysterical cop, myself.
Since you seem to be asserting your person belief as argument, I guess it's only fair to point out how consistently and profoundly wrong you've been in the past. Tax Day, and all...

How about waiting for evidence to shed light on this event.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:17 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Me either, the cops usually lie.

If you want a link to the guy who turned to get his ID, give me a minute.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:17 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
That's just ignorance, though.

Only a very few megalopolis areas have their own police academies and even those are heavily regulated by the various states from which everyday law enforcement powers are derived. Academy recruits have to meet both those standards to attend the academy and the standards of the local jurisdiction. On top of that, there is a set of standards promulgated by the federal government in order to receive funding, participate in data sharing and to comply with various federal legislation.

Local forces are, by-and-large, enforcing state laws and codes (or local codes set up to comply with state models in the case of local traffic ordinances), using largely state training and policies set by state and federal courts.
So states have finally reached treating the police with the level of professional that they have treated barbers with for decades? That every state has professional standards for them.

It does not seem to be universal yet by this article though

"The 2012 IADLEST Survey indicates that 86 percent of the 36 states reporting have some form of police licensure and revocation. This finding is consistent with the research of Professor Roger Goldman who reports that 44 states authorize a state agency, typically POST, to license police officers and to also revoke such licenses.8"

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/m...issue_id=22014

So simply hiring people and giving them only on the job training with no formal academy training is likely still allowed in a few states.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:18 AM   #60
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I wonder how many cops get shot during stops like these .. I guess there are cases here and then, but I doubt it's as frighteningly high number ..
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:18 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There really isn't a difference between cops and felons then. It is your job to keep them calm and they have no responsibilty
I like how the police are now to be dealt with like vicious dogs.

Don't make any sudden moves. Don't assume a posture that could be interpreted as agressive. Don't express fear, they can sense that.

Failing any of that, and it's your fault if you get bit.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:19 AM   #62
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Rather than blaming the object/tool, everyone here should be condemning the people involved. Specifically black people.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:19 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
Since you seem to be asserting your person belief as argument, I guess it's only fair to point out how consistently and profoundly wrong you've been in the past. Tax Day, and all...

How about waiting for evidence to shed light on this event.
Tax Day? WTF are you talking about?

The evidence is right there streaming live. You want evidence cops lie? Seriously?
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:19 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I wonder how many cops get shot during stops like these .. I guess there are cases here and then, but I doubt it's as frighteningly high number ..
It is enough to generate a culture of fear in the police emphasizing the danger of these stops even if they are statistically not dangerous at all.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:20 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I wonder how many cops get shot during stops like these .. I guess there are cases here and then, but I doubt it's as frighteningly high number ..
So that means we should accept all the times they get it wrong and shoot innocent people?
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:20 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I wonder how many cops get shot during stops like these .. I guess there are cases here and then, but I doubt it's as frighteningly high number ..
It happens. There was one around here about 5 or 6 years ago. I wonder if any of them took the time to announce they had a CCW first though? I rather strongly doubt it.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:22 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
The cop told him not to reach for anything. He reached for something. He got shot. No sympathy.
So if you have a CCW you must act precisely as the police want you to. Any deviation to this warrants an immediate execution. FFS.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:23 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Felons are more likely to go to jail if they shoot.
And apparently more likely to go to the morgue if they don't.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:24 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
So if you have a CCW you must act precisely as the police want you to. Any deviation to this warrants an immediate execution. FFS.
Only gun grabbers and cops find the mere presence of someone having a gun threatening causing them to react in fear though.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:24 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is enough to generate a culture of fear in the police emphasizing the danger of these stops even if they are statistically not dangerous at all.
Good point, there is a denominator here.

It's also worth pointing out the number of these cases with black men being killed by the cops after stops or arrests for the most minor things is looking very disproportional.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:24 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
I have never, once, seen someone give an honest summary of one of these cases. So perhaps you will name and link to the case, and we can assess if the facts fit your depiction.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justic...oper-shooting/
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:24 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
My third sentence.
If he told the cop after there is a risk that the cop might glimpse it and shoot.

Did he have a chance to tell the cop before ? (bearing in mine that any failure to comply immediately with the request for ID may also get him shot)
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:30 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
bearing in mine that any failure to comply immediately with the request for ID may also get him shot

There's a brilliant catch 22 there.

Don't reach for your ID/CC permit = disobeying a cop = Shot

Reach for the permit = He was reaching for a gun = Shot.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:37 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There's a brilliant catch 22 there.

Don't reach for your ID/CC permit = disobeying a cop = Shot

Reach for the permit = He was reaching for a gun = Shot.
Well, as we've been told, the rule is "don't do whatever it is you were doing. I don't actually know what it was, but don't have a weapon/drive a car/be near a toy gun/have a wallet/wear a hoodie/whatever incidental thing."

The overall rule here is "don't be black", as we've seen for quite some time now. Too bad it's an impossible request for some of us.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:44 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He was the passenger. And the story is that he did inform the officer of his CCW status and being armed.

The mistake here was CCW while black.
He's in the driver's seat. Somehow the video is flipped left to right, I think?
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:52 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't know this.
I'm simply going by this direct quote from the article linked in the OP:
Quote:
Reynolds says to her Facebook viewers that Castile was licensed to carry a weapon and told the officer he had a firearm as he reached for his wallet and ID.
I have not watched the video, I'm simply going by the article quoting the girlfriend. If she was wrong, or misquoted and he was not reaching in his pockets/glove-box at the time he said he had a gun then of course my comment does not apply.

I think I heard her say the exact quoted words on NPR this morning but hey if there's any evidence she was misquoted or wrong I'd like to see it.
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Old 7th July 2016, 07:59 AM   #77
SteveL
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
He's in the driver's seat. Somehow the video is flipped left to right, I think?
It's on a UK website. Maybe they flipped the video/pics so it would make sense to their targeted viewers?
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Old 7th July 2016, 08:04 AM   #78
lobosrul
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
It's on a UK website. Maybe they flipped the video/pics so it would make sense to their targeted viewers?
The article says something about her recording from the front facing camera and that flips everything.
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Old 7th July 2016, 08:05 AM   #79
Blaster
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
So if you have a CCW you must act precisely as the police want you to. Any deviation to this warrants an immediate execution. FFS.
I would say yes, you should probably cooperate and act precisely as the police want you to when you have a firearm in your possession, legally or otherwise.

Having a CCW doesn't excuse you from being responsible for both parties.

That said, if what is quoted as having happened is what did happen, that he announced his CCW as he was reaching for his wallet/ID, then the officer most likely could not process the situation in time and fired out of panic after hearing the word 'gun'. If so then this is extremely poor training (or handling) and the officer should face at a minimum manslaughter charges, the dept should be fined, and a mandatory retraining program should be forced on all officers in the district.

Even if the cop is hysterical in the video, it doesn't excuse any potential negligence on the drivers part that would have lead up to this happening.
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Old 7th July 2016, 08:12 AM   #80
Beelzebuddy
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Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
If so then this is extremely poor training (or handling) and the officer should face at a minimum manslaughter charges, the dept should be fined, and a mandatory retraining program should be forced on all officers in the district.
But what he'll get is paid administrative leave until the issue blows over.

What you suggest doesn't even happen when cops kill someone in cold blood. The issue is always "complex," and we need to "gather all the information," then press conferences are issued about how "mistakes were made," possibly "of a racial nature," and everyone involved keeps mumbling until the spotlight moves on.
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