ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags gun incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

Reply
Old 7th July 2016, 08:14 AM   #81
lobosrul
Master Poster
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
I would say yes, you should probably cooperate and act precisely as the police want you to when you have a firearm in your possession, legally or otherwise.

Having a CCW doesn't excuse you from being responsible for both parties.

That said, if what is quoted as having happened is what did happen, that he announced his CCW as he was reaching for his wallet/ID, then the officer most likely could not process the situation in time and fired out of panic after hearing the word 'gun'. If so then this is extremely poor training (or handling) and the officer should face at a minimum manslaughter charges, the dept should be fined, and a mandatory retraining program should be forced on all officers in the district.

Even if the cop is hysterical in the video, it doesn't excuse any potential negligence on the drivers part that would have lead up to this happening.
Yes I agree you should. And it sounds to me as if he meant to comply, but maybe didn't do so exactly right. Announce you have a CCW: correct you have to do that. Show the cop your license: correct you have to do that. I guess the best thing to do would be to have the license out on your lap, or dashboard before the police even get to your door?

On the other hand, unless and until, someone actually has a weapon in their hand*, its always unjustifiable for LEO to shoot based on the assumption that there will be.

Unless there is a lapel video recording though its just he-said/she-said. There won't even be a trial.

*barring some sort of extreme circumstances that I'm sure one of our posters will come up with if I didn't put this clause in and still probably will

ETA: I'm unclear on what the underlined means

Last edited by lobosrul; 7th July 2016 at 08:17 AM.
lobosrul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 08:15 AM   #82
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That would be felon and former decorated police officer Sean Groubert.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/white-so...n-levar-jones/

So even doing what the police order you to do will get you shot and it will still be your fault.
Yes, SG's summary of the incident appears accurate. My sympathy to Mr. Jones. It is good that the trooper is going to jail.
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 08:23 AM   #83
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,369
No attempt was made to give the driver any sort of first aid, instead he was held at gun point and they watched him die. The female passenger, who was clam and cooperative was treated like she was a danger to all of those armed police officers.

The US police force have repeatedly shown themselves to be trigger happy cowards who do not care about consequences.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 08:26 AM   #84
Blaster
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
But what he'll get is paid administrative leave until the issue blows over.

What you suggest doesn't even happen when cops kill someone in cold blood. The issue is always "complex," and we need to "gather all the information," then press conferences are issued about how "mistakes were made," possibly "of a racial nature," and everyone involved keeps mumbling until the spotlight moves on.
No, I agree. I'm talking what I'd like to see. I don't know how to do that, because it's political wagon circling. How does one break the cycle?
Blaster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 08:41 AM   #85
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 10,641
Something doing the rounds on FB "We live in a world where trained police officers are allowed to panic and act on impulse but untrained civilians are expected to stay calm and follow directions while a gun is pointed in their face."

And as to what can be done: a good starting point might be this article link

Quote:
as an Air Force officer and pilot I knew the way safety investigations are conducted, and I was thinking that this was going to be conducted this way. Yet within 48 hours I got the message: The police had cleared themselves of all wrongdoing. In 48 hours! They hadn’t even taken statements from several eyewitnesses.
......
In April of this year we passed a law that made Wisconsin the first state in the nation to mandate at legislative level that police-related deaths be reviewed by an outside agency.
......................
I’m not anti-cop. And I am finding that many police want change as well: The good officers in the state of Wisconsin supported our bill from the inside, and it was endorsed by five police unions
__________________
Aphorism: Subjects most likely to be declared inappropriate for humor are the ones most in need of it. -epepke
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 08:51 AM   #86
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,425
Originally Posted by Blaster View Post
No, I agree. I'm talking what I'd like to see. I don't know how to do that, because it's political wagon circling. How does one break the cycle?
It's already happening. The sad thing about all these killings is that they aren't a new thing. Cops have ALWAYS done it, and lied about it, and gotten off more-or-less scot free. But civilian cameras are increasingly common, and sunlight is still the best disinfectant, so people and politicians are gradually coming around.

If you want to speed it up, find a high-profile case where the officer's buddies clearly act as accomplices to the crime, and charge them as such. There'll be a lot more pushback on that front, because it's an assault on one of the basic principles by which police officers conduct themselves. Even the "good" cops would rather shelter a murderer in their ranks than be labeled a snitch.
Beelzebuddy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:00 AM   #87
Cylinder
Philosopher
 
Cylinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 6,053
In April of this year we passed a law that made Wisconsin the first state in the nation to mandate at legislative level that police-related deaths be reviewed by an outside agency.

This is misleading. Every department is required by DOJ and various case law to have use-of-force reviews and reporting within the agency and use-of-deadly-force reviews by an independent agency. I don't know how many are legislative versus administration regulation or promulgated down form the state as opposed to up through the jurisdiction, so I'll accept for argument that the quote is facially correct.

For metro departments, use-of-deadly force reviews (I think)can be conducted interagency by an internal affairs department, but these departments cannot (or aren't supposed to) kind of co-mingle with everyday policing or police.

In Arkansas, every use of deadly force (even those not resulting in death) and every death in custody must be reported to and investigated by the Arkansas State Police. Use of force by the ASP is coincidentally reviewed by an ASP task force and the local jurisdiction. It's also a common occurrence that a grand jury will investigate where factual disputes exist.
__________________
If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed ; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves. - Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm
Cylinder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:03 AM   #88
Mumbles
Illuminator
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,474
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
It's already happening. The sad thing about all these killings is that they aren't a new thing. Cops have ALWAYS done it, and lied about it, and gotten off more-or-less scot free. But civilian cameras are increasingly common, and sunlight is still the best disinfectant, so people and politicians are gradually coming around.

If you want to speed it up, find a high-profile case where the officer's buddies clearly act as accomplices to the crime, and charge them as such. There'll be a lot more pushback on that front, because it's an assault on one of the basic principles by which police officers conduct themselves. Even the "good" cops would rather shelter a murderer in their ranks than be labeled a snitch.
Which leads us to a few questions. First, what constitutes a "good" cop? You'd think it was one that would not participate in any such cover up, but it turns out, not so much?

Second, what is the correct office to turn to here? At the moment, I'm thinking an independent DA that does not have to work with the local PD all the time, since we've seen local DAs get frozen out for any such prosecution. For that matter, recall the hysterical reaction to Bill Di Blasio saying that he taught his black son to be careful around police. I'm not so certain that the DOJ is the department to turn to, either - how often to they handle basic murder/manslaughter cases?
Mumbles is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:03 AM   #89
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 38,792
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Yes, SG's summary of the incident appears accurate. My sympathy to Mr. Jones. It is good that the trooper is going to jail.
But what did Mr. Jones do wrong to cause this to happen? He really should have done things differently and not gotten shot I am sure. Just go back to the thread here from the time that happened.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283366
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:06 AM   #90
lobosrul
Master Poster
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
In April of this year we passed a law that made Wisconsin the first state in the nation to mandate at legislative level that police-related deaths be reviewed by an outside agency.

This is misleading. Every department is required by DOJ and various case law to have use-of-force reviews and reporting within the agency and use-of-deadly-force reviews by an independent agency. I don't know how many are legislative versus administration regulation or promulgated down form the state as opposed to up through the jurisdiction, so I'll accept for argument that the quote is facially correct.

For metro departments, use-of-deadly force reviews (I think)can be conducted interagency by an internal affairs department, but these departments cannot (or aren't supposed to) kind of co-mingle with everyday policing or police.

In Arkansas, every use of deadly force (even those not resulting in death) and every death in custody must be reported to and investigated by the Arkansas State Police. Use of force by the ASP is coincidentally reviewed by an ASP task force and the local jurisdiction. It's also a common occurrence that a grand jury will investigate where factual disputes exist.
Hmm the police department here was essentially exonerating themselves almost immediately after fatal shootings until a DOJ investigation a few years back.
lobosrul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:08 AM   #91
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 38,792
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Hmm the police department here was essentially exonerating themselves almost immediately after fatal shootings until a DOJ investigation a few years back.
I believe the idea is that the local prosecutor counts as the independent agency.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:11 AM   #92
lobosrul
Master Poster
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I believe the idea is that the local prosecutor counts as the independent agency.
But if the PD refuses to investigate the local prosecutor is rather powerless. Things actually got rather ugly between the two here.
lobosrul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:16 AM   #93
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Too many potential fuses for the situation to go horribly bad VERY quickly: Black guy, CCW, armed, jumpy cop also armed, car stop situation...

...and it did go wrong.

Heck, I'm NEVER going to hire a car again in the USA if this is how they issue tail-light tickets!
This is the situation now, unfortunately. I don't think Americans are aware of how much the world sees the USA as a downward spiralling nation of armed bigots at war with their brown population. My wife is a member of an organization that has annual meetings rotating among different cities around the USA, and this year it was in Atlanta.

So... this is the year she stayed home. "I'm a black woman with a medical degree. Pretty much the definition of uppity negro who needs to be put in her place. It's not worth the risk." Her Muslim and Jewish coworkers all made the same decision. I think only two of the 40 people in her department went this year, versus 30 who went to the one in Honolulu.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:20 AM   #94
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 16,344
Saw this rant yesterday (before the latest killing), and it's dead on right.

https://twitter.com/OnlyHipHopFacts/...36351675445248

As long as cops are unwilling to step up and lead the way, people are going to judge them. I've said this all the time, when you have bad people in your profession, the right thing to do is to get rid of them. Doctors need to lead the way to rid the world of bad doctors. Lawyers need to lead the way to get rid of bad lawyers. And cops need to lead the way to get rid of bad cops. And if they aren't going to do it, then they are part of the problem.

Step 1: Admit there is a problem. You have to admit that someone screwed up in order to fix it.
__________________
I have a permanent room at the Home for the Chronically Groovy - Floyd from the Muppets
pgwenthold is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:24 AM   #95
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Yes I agree you should. And it sounds to me as if he meant to comply, but maybe didn't do so exactly right. Announce you have a CCW: correct you have to do that. Show the cop your license: correct you have to do that. I guess the best thing to do would be to have the license out on your lap, or dashboard before the police even get to your door?
This is a common problem, and has contributed to several incidents escalating: conflicting or vague instructions, which cannot be obeyed correctly by the suspect.

Usually it's when more than one LEO is giving instructions: "Freeze" "Hands above your head" "Kneel Down" "Hands against the Car" - whatever the suspect does, three of the LEO will see him directly violate their direction, and are justified in shooting.

In this case, the victim had been given a script for when you're pulled over. The LEO was not going by the script. Now everybody's improvising and trying to interpret intentions.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:26 AM   #96
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,425
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Which leads us to a few questions. First, what constitutes a "good" cop? You'd think it was one that would not participate in any such cover up, but it turns out, not so much?
The "good" cops are the vast majority of the police force who are not the rare "bad apples" what do the actual racist murdering. Of course, the meaning of the bad apple metaphor - that as long as there's a single bad apple remaining, there are no good apples - is the precise opposite of what they want it to mean, but that's the rhetoric.

Quote:
Second, what is the correct office to turn to here? At the moment, I'm thinking an independent DA that does not have to work with the local PD all the time, since we've seen local DAs get frozen out for any such prosecution. For that matter, recall the hysterical reaction to Bill Di Blasio saying that he taught his black son to be careful around police. I'm not so certain that the DOJ is the department to turn to, either - how often to they handle basic murder/manslaughter cases?
Yes, those are interesting and important questions. I don't know what might work, only that nothing we've tried so far has.
Beelzebuddy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:29 AM   #97
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 38,792
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The "good" cops are the vast majority of the police force who are not the rare "bad apples" what do the actual racist murdering. Of course, the meaning of the bad apple metaphor - that as long as there's a single bad apple remaining, there are no good apples - is the precise opposite of what they want it to mean, but that's the rhetoric.
And then there are the snitches who report it when their partner murders someone. They get driven out of the department right quick. Good cops just cover for the bad ones, it doesn't make them bad after all.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:37 AM   #98
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,369
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Something doing the rounds on FB "We live in a world where trained police officers are allowed to panic and act on impulse but untrained civilians are expected to stay calm and follow directions while a gun is pointed in their face."

....
Very true, except it only happens in the USA, no where else in the world. Americans need to get their heads around that.

THIS ONLY HAPPENS IN THE USA AND IT HAPPENS REGULARLY.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:38 AM   #99
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
The "good" cops are the vast majority of the police force who are not the rare "bad apples" what do the actual racist murdering. Of course, the meaning of the bad apple metaphor - that as long as there's a single bad apple remaining, there are no good apples - is the precise opposite of what they want it to mean, but that's the rhetoric.
I think the extension of 'bad cop' was to what skeptics have come to call 'fellow travelers' in other contexts. "All Muslims share responsibility for every terrorist attack, if they do not immediately and publicly renounce their religion."

The cops who do not quit in disgust, by the same reasoning, are signalling their complicity.


Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Yes, those are interesting and important questions. I don't know what might work, only that nothing we've tried so far has.
Yes, it's hard to identify a truly independent party. The state is pretty united in their interest to obtain a high volume of convictions, which makes LEO and the DoJ and DA strongly interdependent and chummy.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:45 AM   #100
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,932
Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
I'm simply going by this direct quote from the article linked in the OP:


I have not watched the video, I'm simply going by the article quoting the girlfriend. If she was wrong, or misquoted and he was not reaching in his pockets/glove-box at the time he said he had a gun then of course my comment does not apply.

I think I heard her say the exact quoted words on NPR this morning but hey if there's any evidence she was misquoted or wrong I'd like to see it.
I have seen the video three times now. Your quote is not quite correct:
Quote:
Bad idea, telling a cop at a stop that you have a gun while you are reaching for something the cop can't see. A more experienced cop would likely have told him to stop reaching and get out of the car. It's far safer to tell the cop either before or after, but not while, reaching for your ID.
She said to the cop, "you told him to get his ID, he was reaching for his wallet, he told you he had a gun and a permit" or something close to that. The cop argued saying "I told him not to move his hands" and the girlfriend tells the cop that is not what he, the cop, said.

Clearly it was what the cop mistakenly assumed, but this is just like the Tamir Rice case, the cops don't give people time to comply before the cops shoot.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 7th July 2016 at 09:46 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 09:52 AM   #101
Caper
Philosopher
 
Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,727
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
This is the situation now, unfortunately. I don't think Americans are aware of how much the world sees the USA as a downward spiralling nation of armed bigots at war with their brown population. My wife is a member of an organization that has annual meetings rotating among different cities around the USA, and this year it was in Atlanta.

So... this is the year she stayed home. "I'm a black woman with a medical degree. Pretty much the definition of uppity negro who needs to be put in her place. It's not worth the risk." Her Muslim and Jewish coworkers all made the same decision. I think only two of the 40 people in her department went this year, versus 30 who went to the one in Honolulu.


What? Atlanta is like the blackest city in US. I think she would have been ok.
Caper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:07 AM   #102
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
What? Atlanta is like the blackest city in US. I think she would have been ok.
From where she stands as a black woman, the danger zone is the entire USA at this point.

ETA: and it's not the population she's worried about: it's the police.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by blutoski; 7th July 2016 at 10:09 AM.
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:09 AM   #103
332nd
Penultimate Amazing
 
332nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,082
Has the NRA gotten involved?
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail
332nd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:10 AM   #104
HenryLee
Muse
 
HenryLee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 753
Good. More sworn law enforcement officers need to start wasting these pistol packing vigilantes.
HenryLee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:10 AM   #105
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
This is the situation now, unfortunately. I don't think Americans are aware of how much the world sees the USA as a downward spiralling nation of armed bigots at war with their brown population. My wife is a member of an organization that has annual meetings rotating among different cities around the USA, and this year it was in Atlanta.
Nice to know that the media narrative has completely overridden the actual facts in peoples' minds.
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:12 AM   #106
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Has the NRA gotten involved?
My prediction is that they will, but they will blame the victim, and say that owning a gun is a responsibility, and irresponsible gun owners put themselves and their families and our heroes in law enforcement at risk. "Fortunately" they will emphasize, "99.999% of gun owners are responsible, and gun ownership makes all of us safer."
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:13 AM   #107
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Nice to know that the media narrative has completely overridden the actual facts in peoples' minds.
I disagree. I think there's a massive problem in the USA and progress will be difficult as long as so much of the population chooses to live in denial about it.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:15 AM   #108
AdamSK
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 1,952
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I disagree. I think there's a massive problem in the USA and progress will be difficult as long as so much of the population chooses to live in denial about it.
And is this "massive problem" backed with facts? How much worse do "uppity Negroes" in Atlanta have it in 2016 than they did in 2006, 1996, or 1986?

Or are these inconvenient questions because you can't pull out a handful of anecdotes to answer them?
AdamSK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:19 AM   #109
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,425
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think the extension of 'bad cop' was to what skeptics have come to call 'fellow travelers' in other contexts. "All Muslims share responsibility for every terrorist attack, if they do not immediately and publicly renounce their religion."

The cops who do not quit in disgust, by the same reasoning, are signalling their complicity.
Sure, because Hicktown PD and a global set of interconflicting religious sects have so much in common.

Actually, I'll make you a deal. If we can start pursuing abusive cops and those who support them with the same fervor that we pursue Islamic terrorists and those who support them, you can make that comparison all you want. Hell, even sync up the rhetoric used in the two cases.

Who are these "skeptics," anyway? Aside from a few blatant racists I haven't heard anyone calling for that.

[ETA] I'm assuming you're being sarcastic with your post. Are you being sarcastic with your post? If you're being earnest, that needs a whole different response (but it's still wrong).

Last edited by Beelzebuddy; 7th July 2016 at 10:22 AM.
Beelzebuddy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:29 AM   #110
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Sure, because Hicktown PD and a global set of interconflicting religious sects have so much in common.
Yep. That's why I like the analogy. Neither has central leadership, they disagree among themselves on practically everything &c. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, is what I'm saying. But only if people want to be consistent.



Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Actually, I'll make you a deal. If we can start pursuing abusive cops and those who support them with the same fervor that we pursue Islamic terrorists and those who support them, you can make that comparison all you want. Hell, even sync up the rhetoric used in the two cases.
Not sure what you mean.



Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Who are these "skeptics," anyway? Aside from a few blatant racists I haven't heard anyone calling for that. Why has it become popular lately to use "skeptic" as a sarcastic pejorative?
Well, yes, there's risk of "no true skeptic" on this one, but pretty much all the New Atheists, for example, use the 'fellow travellers' argument to extend accountability for religious violence to all religious people. I believe Dawkins popularized the term in through several of his books, and Shermer uses it in some of his op/ed publications as well, and he's in charge of the Skeptics Society, so hard to argue he's not a skeptic. Hitchens and Sam Harris, too, but it's not clear if they would qualify as a skeptic in the traditional sense, but I feel there's a valid argument for it.

Heck: Harris extends the 'fellow travellers' umbrella to include atheist Liberals in his writings, since Liberals generally support religious pluralism as a feature of democracies.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:31 AM   #111
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
[ETA] I'm assuming you're being sarcastic with your post. Are you being sarcastic with your post? If you're being earnest, that needs a whole different response (but it's still wrong).
Oops. I posted my immediately previous post before you had a chance to finish this edit.

I'm not being sarcastic, but rather, saying that I observe a lot of inconsistency among some of the more conservative skeptics. All X should be responsible for something an X does (and coincidentally, I'm not an X). But if a fellow Y does something bad, I shouldn't be held accountable just because I'm also a Y.

This reasoning is inconsistent, and may actually be hypocrisy.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:42 AM   #112
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,472
I'm middle aged white and have a short hair cut, I live in Ontario Canada.

When I get pulled over for a bad light or speeding or whatever, I put the window down all the way, I pull over asap, shut off my car, and place my arms on the top of the steering wheel with my hands RIGHT UP by the WINDSHIELD.

When the officer asked for my ID I tell him were it is and ask if it's OK to retrieve it now, and I do so slowly with one hand.

If I can do that here ... everyone can do that everywhere.
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:46 AM   #113
lobosrul
Master Poster
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I'm middle aged white and have a short hair cut, I live in Ontario Canada.

When I get pulled over for a bad light or speeding or whatever, I put the window down all the way, I pull over asap, shut off my car, and place my arms on the top of the steering wheel with my hands RIGHT UP by the WINDSHIELD.

When the officer asked for my ID I tell him were it is and ask if it's OK to retrieve it now, and I do so slowly with one hand.

If I can do that here ... everyone can do that everywhere.
Good for you. Do you think its acceptable to be shot if you reach for your ID too quickly? I've been pulled over exactly once; I was nervous and jumpy as hell and couldn't find my insurance in my wallet. Glad the cop didn't assume I had a gun in the center console when I opened it fishing for it (ETA: which is actually perfectly legal here without a license) . I recall him looking a bit nervous when I did though.

Last edited by lobosrul; 7th July 2016 at 11:04 AM.
lobosrul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 10:48 AM   #114
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I'm middle aged white and have a short hair cut, I live in Ontario Canada.

When I get pulled over for a bad light or speeding or whatever, I put the window down all the way, I pull over asap, shut off my car, and place my arms on the top of the steering wheel with my hands RIGHT UP by the WINDSHIELD.

When the officer asked for my ID I tell him were it is and ask if it's OK to retrieve it now, and I do so slowly with one hand.

If I can do that here ... everyone can do that everywhere.
Yep. And that's what the victim did. The officer in fact instructed him to fetch his ID, and he was complying.

The problem was that he had a 2nd mandatory requirement, which is to tell officers that he has a permit for a CCW - he's required to do this by law. The LEO appears to have conflated that in his head with the hand motion he just ordered the victim to undertake ("fetch your ID") and shot him. The LEO appears to have momentarily forgotten that the victim's hand motion was actually complying with his own order.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by blutoski; 7th July 2016 at 10:50 AM.
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:11 AM   #115
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Good for you. Do you think its acceptable to be shot if you reach for your ID too quickly? I've been pulled over exactly once; I was nervous and jumpy as hell and couldn't find my insurance in my wallet. Glad the cop didn't assume I had a gun in the center console when I opened it fishing for it. I recall him looking a bit nervous when I did though.
It doesn't matter if we think its acceptable or not (obviously it's not) ... the issue is its POSSIBLE, and that makes it wise to do everything to mitigate the possibility.

My suggestion is just one way, I'm not saying the poor kid should have been shot because he should not have ... but he did not follow proper protocol for a CCW permit holder.

You don't say "I have a gun" and reach for you wallet unless you want to be shot ...

You do NOT even use the word "gun" you say, something like ...

“Officer, I want to let you know that I have a concealed carry permit, I currently have one on my person. How would you like me to proceed?”

If he asks for ID you say ... "I am Carrying in a waistband holster located about 5 o’clock which is the same general location as my wallet wallet ... do you want me to go ahead?"


Often they'll say NO and tell you to slowly get out of the vehicle.
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:13 AM   #116
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,626
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
You do NOT even use the word "gun" you say, something like ...

“Officer, I want to let you know that I have a concealed carry permit, I currently have one on my person. How would you like me to proceed?”
Yes, but notice, at this instant, you have stopped obeying his last order (fetch the ID) so you have given him reason to regard you as a threat, visually.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:17 AM   #117
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,472
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post

The problem was that he had a 2nd mandatory requirement, which is to tell officers that he has a permit for a CCW
Actually I just checked and this incident occurred in Minesota ... in that sate there is no requirement to inform unless specifically asked.
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:22 AM   #118
Beelzebuddy
Philosopher
 
Beelzebuddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,425
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Oops. I posted my immediately previous post before you had a chance to finish this edit.

I'm not being sarcastic, but rather, saying that I observe a lot of inconsistency among some of the more conservative skeptics. All X should be responsible for something an X does (and coincidentally, I'm not an X). But if a fellow Y does something bad, I shouldn't be held accountable just because I'm also a Y.

This reasoning is inconsistent, and may actually be hypocrisy.
Oh, okay, you were making an unrelated dig. I've never had much interest in identity politics, so I don't know what skeptics are supposed to think.

I don't think all cops are bad. But I do think a lot more cops are bad than cops like to think, and much of the time that manifests when they shelter the cops that get labeled as "bad apples." It may have been the bad apple that shot the innocent civilian, but it was someone else who covered for him. Who destroyed the evidence. Who stonewalled the investigation. Probably lots of someones.
Beelzebuddy is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:29 AM   #119
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,094
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Yep. And that's what the victim did. The officer in fact instructed him to fetch his ID, and he was complying.

The problem was that he had a 2nd mandatory requirement, which is to tell officers that he has a permit for a CCW - he's required to do this by law. The LEO appears to have conflated that in his head with the hand motion he just ordered the victim to undertake ("fetch your ID") and shot him. The LEO appears to have momentarily forgotten that the victim's hand motion was actually complying with his own order.
I didn't see any of that on the video I saw, just the lady's narrative about it. Is it a given that her description is correct? Is there another video showing that part?
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:33 AM   #120
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 38,792
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think the extension of 'bad cop' was to what skeptics have come to call 'fellow travelers' in other contexts. "All Muslims share responsibility for every terrorist attack, if they do not immediately and publicly renounce their religion."

The cops who do not quit in disgust, by the same reasoning, are signalling their complicity.
Are say the cops who were covering up the murder of Laquan McDonald good cops or bad cops? It seems that none of the rather many cops who were covering up the evidence had an issue with it.

So if most cops are good cops, and most cops cover up felonies committed by fellow cops, then covering up felonies of fellow cops is an acceptable activity for good cops.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:17 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.