ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags gun incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

Reply
Old 7th July 2016, 11:35 AM   #121
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Yes, but notice, at this instant, you have stopped obeying his last order (fetch the ID) so you have given him reason to regard you as a threat, visually.
No you say what you're doing first and ask if it's OK ... for example I used to keep my wallet in my tool box so i would not lose it climbing in the steel (when I worked in construction)

If the LEO says "Let's see some ID" I would not immediately jump over the seat and open a steel box in the back of the van.

I would say, "No problem sir, it's locked in my tool box in the back , shall I go to the back doors to get it now?"
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:36 AM   #122
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 37,778
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Yep. That's why I like the analogy. Neither has central leadership, they disagree among themselves on practically everything &c. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, is what I'm saying. But only if people want to be consistent.
So you are saying most muslims are covering up the wrongful actions of fellow muslims, like most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops?
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:38 AM   #123
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 37,778
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
No you say what you're doing first and ask if it's OK ... for example I used to keep my wallet in my tool box so i would not lose it climbing in the steel (when I worked in construction)

If the LEO says "Let's see some ID" I would not immediately jump over the seat and open a steel box in the back of the van.

I would say, "No problem sir, it's locked in my tool box in the back , shall I go to the back doors to get it now?"
Exactly you have to treat all cops as is they are trigger happy crack heads. There really is no distinction in how one needs to behave in an arrest or a mugging as they are functionally identical.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:41 AM   #124
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly you have to treat all cops as is they are trigger happy crack heads. There really is no distinction in how one needs to behave in an arrest or a mugging as they are functionally identical.
The protocols I posted are recommended and taught at CCW classes in the US.

I don't see the need for the hyperbole ...
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:47 AM   #125
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
I wonder how many cops get shot during stops like these .. I guess there are cases here and then, but I doubt it's as frighteningly high number ..
Quick check ... about one cop per month is shot during traffic stops, just in the US ...
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:50 AM   #126
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Very true, except it only happens in the USA, no where else in the world. Americans need to get their heads around that.

THIS ONLY HAPPENS IN THE USA AND IT HAPPENS REGULARLY.
False
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:54 AM   #127
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 16,632
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Good for you. Do you think its acceptable to be shot if you reach for your ID too quickly? I've been pulled over exactly once; I was nervous and jumpy as hell and couldn't find my insurance in my wallet. Glad the cop didn't assume I had a gun in the center console when I opened it fishing for it (ETA: which is actually perfectly legal here without a license) . I recall him looking a bit nervous when I did though.
I knew a (white) man who was shot and killed by a police officer when he was reaching for his ID. His three boys (about my age) were in the car. Granted, this was 40 years ago, but it's not always about race.

However, in this case I think it was a large factor.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 11:58 AM   #128
lobosrul
Master Poster
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Quick check ... about one cop per month is shot during traffic stops, just in the US ...
Given there are 900,000 sworn LEO's in the US that's a rate of 1.33 per 100,000 per year. Hardly justification to shoot people if they believe they just might be reaching for a gun.

Last edited by lobosrul; 7th July 2016 at 11:59 AM.
lobosrul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:02 PM   #129
Pterodactyl
Muse
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 554
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Given there are 900,000 sworn LEO's in the US that's a rate of 1.33 per 100,000 per year. Hardly justification to shoot people if they believe they just might be reaching for a gun.
Consider the possibility that there are relatively few shootings of this nature, not because it isn't dangerous, but because specific training (S.T.O.P.S.) greatly reduces the number of these occurrences.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:02 PM   #130
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 14,297
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You of all people should recognise deliberate hyperbole when you see it.

The police here were poorly trained cowboys.

I've said it time and time again. The biggest problem with policing in the US is the vast number of police forces, each with different standards of recruitment, training and policy setting. A "force" of a hundred police can't have the same standards as the Met, the RCMP or state forces of 15,000+ in Australia.

Small forces have small mindsets and poor training. Leading to stupid events like this. Amalgamate US forces. Have state forces. Learn from others. For one of the very rare times.
Indeed.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf



Quote:
About 8,800 state and local law enforcement agencies (49% of the total) employed fewer than 10 full-time sworn personnel, and about 5,400 (30%) employed fewer than 5 officers. Among these smaller agencies, about 2,100 (12%) had just one full-time officer or had part-time officers only
Quote:
The 2008 CSLLEA included 17,985 state and local law enforcement agencies employing at least one full-time officer or the equivalent in part-time officers.
The total included—

12,501 local police departments

3,063 sheriffs’ offices

50 primary state law enforcement
agencies

1,733 special jurisdiction agencies

638 other agencies, primarily county
constable offices in Texas.
In comparison, the smallest police force in the UK is the Civil Nuclear Constabulary with 750 officers and an obvious highly specialised role.

There are 45 territorial police forces in the UK and 3 special police forces (including the aforementioned Civil Nuclear Constabulary).

There have been discussions as to whether some of these territorial forces are too small for efficiencies of scale.

A 5-person police force lacks the oversight that a larger one could have. It also seems an environment that could be conducive for small-scale corruption.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:08 PM   #131
lobosrul
Master Poster
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Consider the possibility that there are relatively few shootings of this nature, not because it isn't dangerous, but because specific training (S.T.O.P.S.) greatly reduces the number of these occurrences.
I don't doubt proper training has reduced police deaths. There were 123 LEO's killed in the line of duty last year compared to an average of 162 a year in the 1990's (those figures include traffic accidents), despite there being more police now.

What does that training consist of? Googling S.T.O.P.S. is not helpful. I hope they're not trained to shoot at the mere belief that maybe the driver was reaching for a gun when he said he was getting his wallet.

Source: http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/
lobosrul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:10 PM   #132
Yeggster
Master Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,322
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Given there are 900,000 sworn LEO's in the US that's a rate of 1.33 per 100,000 per year. Hardly justification to shoot people if they believe they just might be reaching for a gun.
I could only make that judgement if I was in the situation ...

I'm sure the "statistically low probability of death" is not what's going through anyone's mind when they fear they may be shot.

Some of this could be well served by more technology .... its WAY cheaper than the lawsuits resulting.

If it was the poor kids car the officer should KNOW with ZERO effort the guy has a carry permit (license plate scan, on computer, shows his info)

Cops in Ontario have had a notice on their computer screens by default (once your plate number is entered) that alerts them if the vehicle's registee simply even OWNS a handgun ... since at least the early the 1990's

Many recent cruisers scan plates automatically too (although I don't know if it's planned for all cruisers here)
Yeggster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:11 PM   #133
lobosrul
Master Poster
 
lobosrul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,312
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Indeed.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf







In comparison, the smallest police force in the UK is the Civil Nuclear Constabulary with 750 officers and an obvious highly specialised role.

There are 45 territorial police forces in the UK and 3 special police forces (including the aforementioned Civil Nuclear Constabulary).

There have been discussions as to whether some of these territorial forces are too small for efficiencies of scale.

A 5-person police force lacks the oversight that a larger one could have. It also seems an environment that could be conducive for small-scale corruption.
Yup and little towns use them as revenue generation. One town in Colorado was pulling over people for having obstructed windshields and writing them a ticket. The obstruction was sometimes as small as a 3"x3" parking pass sticker.
lobosrul is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:11 PM   #134
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 16,632
The guy was not shot by a white cop. Nevertheless, it is still indicative of a problem.

(eta) and they "had some weed in the car", according to the woman. Not that that should make a bit of difference but I'm sure some factions are going to pounce on that. Details emerge.

Last edited by alfaniner; 7th July 2016 at 12:23 PM.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:15 PM   #135
Pterodactyl
Muse
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 554
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
I don't doubt proper training has reduced police deaths. There were 123 LEO's killed in the line of duty last year compared to an average of 162 a year in the 1990's (those figures include traffic accidents), despite there being more police now.

What does that training consist of? Googling S.T.O.P.S. is not helpful. I hope they're not trained to shoot at the mere belief that maybe the driver was reaching for a gun when he said he was getting his wallet.

Source: http://www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/
It is basically just tactics to safely approach and deal with a stopped vehicle.

It most certainly doesnt train people to shoot at motorists reaching for their wallets, but it does teach tactics to keep a officer out of the line of fire.
I'm not making a comment on this officer's specific actions, just that with the proliferation of gun ownership (legal or otherwise), the general attitude (even in these threads, and maybe not wholly unjustified) of the public toward police, it is indeed dangerous business.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:19 PM   #136
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So you are saying most muslims are covering up the wrongful actions of fellow muslims, like most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops?
I don't think most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops, no.

The 'fellow traveller' argument is that one does not have to be involved in the original bad act to be held accountable by association. That the only way to prove one is morally right is to immediately and publicly cease affiliation. In the religious context, the advocates of this POV say they will be satisfied if the person publicly denounces her religion. In the police context, this would mean an officer quitting his job.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:29 PM   #137
DreadNiK
A typical atypical
 
DreadNiK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 886
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I don't think most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops, no.

The 'fellow traveller' argument is that one does not have to be involved in the original bad act to be held accountable by association. That the only way to prove one is morally right is to immediately and publicly cease affiliation. In the religious context, the advocates of this POV say they will be satisfied if the person publicly denounces her religion. In the police context, this would mean an officer quitting his job.
I don't think the two are analogous. not that I think either is a valid claim;

'signing up to' a religion means you are signing up to a doctrine of morals or whatever, and it is pretty demonstrable that these doctrines are ethically screwed up, and also that most adherents don't actually follow what their book etc says but tend to just take the socially and morally acceptable and leave the rest, pretty much according to the century or decade, and some of them actually take it way too seriously and do some deeply wrong stuff, but that isn't actually all that at odds with what their doctrines state

signing up to be a police officer, whether or not that is the actual motivation for every single individual, is signing up to uphold the moral doctrines of society, and some of them do some deeply wrong stuff that is completely at odds with the stated doctrines...

ETA:

I think the key difference is, there were some actually pretty bad 'doctrines' with regards to policing, but when they updated them, they got rid of the old ones.

Religions never do this. They just have some collective understanding that they ignore certain parts. Probably why it gets such bad results sometimes, the cognitive dissonance must be a strain
__________________
Question Everything - Just not always out loud...

Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate

Last edited by DreadNiK; 7th July 2016 at 12:34 PM.
DreadNiK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:49 PM   #138
Fudbucker
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 6,137
Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
The cop told him not to reach for anything. He reached for something. He got shot. No sympathy.
Even assuming this was a justified shooting, what happened is a tragedy and very much deserving of sympathy. This cop, if he's a decent person, will carry this with him the rest of his life, and the guy who was shot was apparently doing nothing more than reaching for his I.D., which normally isn't a death sentence.
Fudbucker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:57 PM   #139
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,063
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I don't think most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops, no....
You'd be wrong.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 12:59 PM   #140
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,063
Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Even assuming this was a justified shooting, ...
Are you including gross incompetence in your 'justified' category?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:08 PM   #141
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 37,778
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Given there are 900,000 sworn LEO's in the US that's a rate of 1.33 per 100,000 per year. Hardly justification to shoot people if they believe they just might be reaching for a gun.
It isn't about statistics or risk it is about the police mindset and that focuses on how randomly dangerous they are even if they are less dangerous that driving around in their patrol car and not pulling anyone over. The driving is enough of a constant that the risks there get ignored but those events especially now there is dash cams to show a few of them are blown all out of proportion in perceived risk.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:10 PM   #142
Caper
Philosopher
 
Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,727
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I knew a (white) man who was shot and killed by a police officer when he was reaching for his ID. His three boys (about my age) were in the car. Granted, this was 40 years ago, but it's not always about race.

However, in this case I think it was a large factor.
The Chinese don't like the blacks.
Caper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:11 PM   #143
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 37,778
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I don't think most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops, no.
So where is your evidence for this claim? There certainly are many murders committed by the police with other officers around that only ever came to be prosecuted because the video got out. Why does it seem only bad cops are on scene of these murders? At the least cops who will cover up and not rat on their partner over little things like murdering someone seem to be the norm.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:14 PM   #144
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 37,778
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
The Chinese don't like the blacks.
That was a major point in the manslaughter conviction of a Chinese american officer in NYC for negligently discharging his pistol in a stairwell and killing a black man. A large section of the chinese comunity felt he wouldn't even have been charged if he was white. I am not sure I disagree with them on that point.

Fortunately for them the judge largely threw up the jury verdict.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:15 PM   #145
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,052
That cop should have been never allowed on the job let alone carry a gun.

He is clearly not the full deck.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:16 PM   #146
Pterodactyl
Muse
 
Pterodactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 554
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It isn't about statistics or risk it is about the police mindset and that focuses on how randomly dangerous they are even if they are less dangerous that driving around in their patrol car and not pulling anyone over. The driving is enough of a constant that the risks there get ignored but those events especially now there is dash cams to show a few of them are blown all out of proportion in perceived risk.
Also, nationwide statistics mean little when responding to a situation where you expect hostility. Whether it is due to reliable information that a suspect might be armed, or an officer's intuition (justified or otherwise), it is impossible, despite any training, to completely remove the human element. Heightened awareness, focus, panic set in differently for individuals.
It is unrealistic to expect robotic sound judgement from all of these people in the heat of the moment.
Pterodactyl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:20 PM   #147
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So where is your evidence for this claim?
Since the claim is about what I think (the sentence starts with "I don't think...") the literal answer is: "I am the evidence."

However, if you mean how do I support my opinion, probably in the same drawer as "most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops". There isn't good evidence about activity that by definition is being covered up.


Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
There certainly are many murders committed by the police with other officers around that only ever came to be prosecuted because the video got out. Why does it seem only bad cops are on scene of these murders? At the least cops who will cover up and not rat on their partner over little things like murdering someone seem to be the norm.
This is certainly evidence that there are nonzero quantity of crappy officers, and nonzero quantity of officers who collude to suppress evidence of their incompetence or malevolence. I don't know how to quantify how far on the continuum from 'at least one' to 'most'. Also: this estimate is different than estimates of conspiracy to suppress evidence.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:24 PM   #148
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 16,632
So far, one guy with signs in front of the Police Dept. I'm guessing there will soon be more.

(This is all within walking distance.)
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:31 PM   #149
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
I don't think the two are analogous. not that I think either is a valid claim;

'signing up to' a religion means you are signing up to a doctrine of morals or whatever, and it is pretty demonstrable that these doctrines are ethically screwed up, and also that most adherents don't actually follow what their book etc says but tend to just take the socially and morally acceptable and leave the rest, pretty much according to the century or decade, and some of them actually take it way too seriously and do some deeply wrong stuff, but that isn't actually all that at odds with what their doctrines state

signing up to be a police officer, whether or not that is the actual motivation for every single individual, is signing up to uphold the moral doctrines of society, and some of them do some deeply wrong stuff that is completely at odds with the stated doctrines...
Correct, but that's not the reasoning the 'fellow travellers' critics are employing. They're talking about how just by being silent and not repudiating everything about the category, one is giving encouragement to others in the category to do morally wrong things. For example, that a Mennonite pacifist (who has already rejected all violence) is still accountable for a Baptist's abortion clinic bombings by not repudiating their shared 'Christianity'.



Originally Posted by DreadNiK View Post
ETA:

I think the key difference is, there were some actually pretty bad 'doctrines' with regards to policing, but when they updated them, they got rid of the old ones.

Religions never do this. They just have some collective understanding that they ignore certain parts. Probably why it gets such bad results sometimes, the cognitive dissonance must be a strain
Religions do this all the time - that's why there's so many of them. At any given moment, 'Islam' represents something in the neighbourhood of about a billion conflicting doctrines.

For example, Christianity: this is the doctrine where you give to the poor... or not... kill people... or not... depends on what kind of Christian. Protestantism is the rejection of the Catholic doctrines, Catholicism is the rejection of the Jewish docrines, &c.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:41 PM   #150
Caper
Philosopher
 
Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,727
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
From where she stands as a black woman, the danger zone is the entire USA at this point.

ETA: and it's not the population she's worried about: it's the police.
Yeah. I think the police in Atlanta would be fine. Your wife's hang ups are largely unfounded. The odds of her getting roughed up by a cop in Atlanta for being a successful black woman are astronomical..... Actually if shes worried more about the police then she is pretty bad at risk assessment.
Caper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:46 PM   #151
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,063
Originally Posted by Caper View Post
The Chinese Cops don't like the blacks.
ftfy
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:48 PM   #152
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,063
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
... probably in the same drawer as "most police cover up the wrongful acts of fellow cops". There isn't good evidence about activity that by definition is being covered up....
Yes there is. There is overwhelming evidence of this.

So much evidence it makes me wonder why you aren't aware of it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:51 PM   #153
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,052
Something is seriously wrong when a woman whose partner has just been shot and whose kid is in the back seat is calm, while the person who is supposedly the authority figure and has a drawn gun is screaming like a little girl
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 01:51 PM   #154
Skeptic Ginger
formerly skeptigirl
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 61,063
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
From where she stands as a black woman, the danger zone is the entire USA at this point.

ETA: and it's not the population she's worried about: it's the police.
How does this square with you thinking cops don't cover up for each other? How many of these cops have ever been convicted? Just the sheer number of incidents now that cameras are all over, vs the number that didn't go public because the cops always denied things regardless of how many were on the scene should be a clue.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 02:01 PM   #155
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes there is. There is overwhelming evidence of this.

So much evidence it makes me wonder why you aren't aware of it.
I'm not sure it's quantitative, is the thing. "most" was the problematic word, there. Does that mean you think that >50% of police are as we speak knowingly involved in a coverup of a peer's criminal activity? I don't think there's evidence that supports these numbers.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 02:30 PM   #156
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 10,496
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How does this square with you thinking cops don't cover up for each other?
It was the quantitative part of the claim I was pushing back on. And I guess the scope of the infractions involved. Would they look the other way if their partner didn't polish their boot with an approved brand of polish? Sure, probably 100% of them would.

Would they look the other way if their partner violated a serious law, a life-threating situation? I'm thinking very few would, and there doesn't seem to be compelling evidence to believe otherwise.



Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How many of these cops have ever been convicted?
We don't know, since we don't know how many were found innocent specifically because of conspiracy to suppress evidence among their peers.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just the sheer number of incidents now that cameras are all over, vs the number that didn't go public because the cops always denied things regardless of how many were on the scene should be a clue.
Yes, this is something I was saying to my wife this morning (I think I even facebooked it, let me check... oh yes, i'll copy/paste it here):
Quote:
I was just thinking about the stark difference between how the recent ubiquity of cameras has so negatively impacted support for UFOs, Cryptozoology, and ghosts, while simultaneously boosting the credibility of racially targeted LEO murders.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 02:51 PM   #157
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 12,052
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
It doesn't matter if we think its acceptable or not (obviously it's not) ... the issue is its POSSIBLE, and that makes it wise to do everything to mitigate the possibility.

My suggestion is just one way, I'm not saying the poor kid should have been shot because he should not have ... but he did not follow proper protocol for a CCW permit holder.

You don't say "I have a gun" and reach for you wallet unless you want to be shot ...

You do NOT even use the word "gun" you say, something like ...

“Officer, I want to let you know that I have a concealed carry permit, I currently have one on my person. How would you like me to proceed?”

If he asks for ID you say ... "I am Carrying in a waistband holster located about 5 o’clock which is the same general location as my wallet wallet ... do you want me to go ahead?"


Often they'll say NO and tell you to slowly get out of the vehicle.
Lol

Geezes H
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 03:27 PM   #158
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 16,632
The woman certainly had presence of mind (and a lot of time?) to start broadcasting on Facebook live. I know what the video looks like, but I am still open to the possibility that the inciting incident was something more severe than stated.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 03:37 PM   #159
fagin
Illuminator
 
fagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: As far away from casebro as possible.
Posts: 4,037
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Lol

Geezes H
It's almost incomprehensible isn't it?

Just a different world I suppose.
__________________
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
fagin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2016, 03:42 PM   #160
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,161
Originally Posted by fagin View Post
It's almost incomprehensible isn't it?

Just a different world I suppose.
A world in which the people tasked with protecting the public are dangerously unstable and can react lethally with the just the slightest provocation, apparently.

Sounds like a horrible world.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:32 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.