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Tags gun incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 7th July 2016, 11:44 PM   #201
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I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun. Don't even announce that you have a permit to carry a gun. Once the officer is at your window, you tell him you are going to reach for your ID. Hand the officer your Driver license and permit at the same time. Let him digest that. He will then ask if you are carrying. Which at that time you tell him, yes I am. Then do exactly what he asks you to do.
By telling him you have a gun or permit, then reaching for something, he is going to get very nervous. Best to not do that.
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Old 7th July 2016, 11:48 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
Good for you. Do you think its acceptable to be shot if you reach for your ID too quickly? I've been pulled over exactly once; I was nervous and jumpy as hell and couldn't find my insurance in my wallet. Glad the cop didn't assume I had a gun in the center console when I opened it fishing for it (ETA: which is actually perfectly legal here without a license) . I recall him looking a bit nervous when I did though.
I am from England. i have been stopped once in a hire car in Arizona. I probably did all the things I was not supposed to do. So I guess i am lucky not to be shot. I definitely undid my seat belt, I did not keep my hands on the wheel. I probably tried to get out of the car. I probably tried to take the car documents out of the glove box, and went for my handbag for my passport (I suspect when asked for my photo id he did not expect a British passport. Luckily the police officer spoke English. he also did answer my question about how you decide who goes first at a four way stop sign, though I suspect he thought I was taking the piss. Cleary hire cars should have printed instructions on what to do if stopped by the police, especially for us foreigners.
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Old 8th July 2016, 12:12 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun.
This gets confusing. 2 years ago Sean Hannity, knowing police treat white and black people the exact same, told people how to not get shot by the police and in his imaginary experiences of being pulled over the very first thing you needed to do was tell the officer you had a gun. Now it is the opposite.
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Old 8th July 2016, 12:23 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
It is unrealistic to expect robotic sound judgement from all of these people in the heat of the moment.
Are you talking about the officer or the civilian?
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Old 8th July 2016, 12:29 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
This gets confusing. 2 years ago Sean Hannity, knowing police treat white and black people the exact same, told people how to not get shot by the police and in his imaginary experiences of being pulled over the very first thing you needed to do was tell the officer you had a gun. Now it is the opposite.
Don't forget, he also counseled to get out of the car and lift your shirt to show where the gun is. I'm sure that everyone agrees that cops would just love to have a bunch of black guys getting out of cars and exposing guns as soon as they could at every traffic stop.
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Old 8th July 2016, 12:34 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Indeed.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/csllea08.pdf







In comparison, the smallest police force in the UK is the Civil Nuclear Constabulary with 750 officers and an obvious highly specialised role.

There are 45 territorial police forces in the UK and 3 special police forces (including the aforementioned Civil Nuclear Constabulary).

There have been discussions as to whether some of these territorial forces are too small for efficiencies of scale.

A 5-person police force lacks the oversight that a larger one could have. It also seems an environment that could be conducive for small-scale corruption.
What about Kew?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kew_Constabulary

Though as far as I know their armed response unit carries secateurs not firearms.

Like their hats!
http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/kew-con...ry-constables/

Last edited by Planigale; 8th July 2016 at 12:37 AM. Reason: added link
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Old 8th July 2016, 01:08 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
This gets confusing. 2 years ago Sean Hannity, knowing police treat white and black people the exact same, told people how to not get shot by the police and in his imaginary experiences of being pulled over the very first thing you needed to do was tell the officer you had a gun. Now it is the opposite.
Feel free to do whatever Mr. Hannity suggests. I'll be following the advice of a professional firearms instructor.
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Old 8th July 2016, 01:14 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
Feel free to do whatever Mr. Hannity suggests. I'll be following the advice of a professional firearms instructor.
In my 65 long years in Australia I've never needed the advice of a firearms instructor. This is something US citizens might want to reflect on.
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Old 8th July 2016, 01:23 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
In my 65 long years in Australia I've never needed the advice of a firearms instructor. This is something US citizens might want to reflect on.
Getting shot by an officer during s traffic stop is also not on my mind either. This is the calm we breathe.
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Old 8th July 2016, 01:26 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
In my 65 long years in Australia I've never needed the advice of a firearms instructor. This is something US citizens might want to reflect on.

That you missed your opportunity?
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Old 8th July 2016, 02:02 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
What about Kew?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kew_Constabulary

Though as far as I know their armed response unit carries secateurs not firearms.

Like their hats!
http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/kew-con...ry-constables/
Could cause a serious injury with that mighty watch though.
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:20 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
No sympathy.
None, at all?

We're talking about, to the best of our knowledge, a law abiding citizen who needlessly died in a moment of confusion and you can find no sympathy for him?
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Old 8th July 2016, 05:05 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun. Don't even announce that you have a permit to carry a gun. Once the officer is at your window, you tell him you are going to reach for your ID. Hand the officer your Driver license and permit at the same time. Let him digest that. He will then ask if you are carrying. Which at that time you tell him, yes I am. Then do exactly what he asks you to do.
By telling him you have a gun or permit, then reaching for something, he is going to get very nervous. Best to not do that.
Yes. Did you watch the video I posted (post 21)?
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Old 8th July 2016, 05:15 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
None, at all?

We're talking about, to the best of our knowledge, a law abiding citizen who needlessly died in a moment of confusion and you can find no sympathy for him?
If one discounts the racial motive and is a CCW holder then, for the sake of one's own sanity, it's vitally important to believe that this was all the fault of the deceased. A belief that it could happen to anyone who doesn't make a mistake would lead to some extremely nervy traffic stops later in the CCW holders life.
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Old 8th July 2016, 05:31 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Since data on unarmed men killed by cops is not kept, where do you recommend we look?
Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Hummm...

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I like how the police are now to be dealt with like vicious dogs.

Don't make any sudden moves. Don't assume a posture that could be interpreted as agressive. Don't express fear, they can sense that.

Failing any of that, and it's your fault if you get bit.
I live in Canada, where we don't have this police problem, and I'm white, but I wouldn't do any of that.
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:16 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But what did Mr. Jones do wrong to cause this to happen? He really should have done things differently and not gotten shot I am sure. Just go back to the thread here from the time that happened.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283366
I don't see anybody saying that (admittedly, I only read through the first page). Everybody in that thread seems to be agreeing that the cop screwed up and panicked and should be in jail.

So why are you implying that people were blaming Jones for the incident or defending the cop? I don't see any of that.
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:19 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun. Don't even announce that you have a permit to carry a gun. Once the officer is at your window, you tell him you are going to reach for your ID. Hand the officer your Driver license and permit at the same time. Let him digest that. He will then ask if you are carrying. Which at that time you tell him, yes I am. Then do exactly what he asks you to do.
By telling him you have a gun or permit, then reaching for something, he is going to get very nervous. Best to not do that.
Here, CCW instructors give the opposite advice - likely because state law requires that you announce your firearm promptly if you are pulled over and keep your hands in plain sight at all times. We have always done this without incident. Then again, we also don't reach for ID when we are told not to.

Last edited by AdamSK; 8th July 2016 at 06:21 AM.
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:32 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
Feel free to do whatever Mr. Hannity suggests. I'll be following the advice of a professional firearms instructor.
The instructor is absolutely correct, but that approach does come with it's own set of unintended consequences.

In California, CC regulations vary by county, but it's pretty much universal that a licensed carrier must inform the LEO that s/he is carrying.

There has been a bit of confusion on the part of individual LEO's about when they should be informed by the individual they're interacting with, and I'm aware of more than one incident where a licensed carrier did pretty much exactly what the instructor advised only to find themselves in custody (temporarily) for not informing the officer at the onset of the encounter - in one incident, an individual was approached by an officer responding to a suspicious person call (which the contactee wasn't), approached the licensed carrier and began questioning the individual. According to the carrier, he attempted multiple times to inform the officer he was carrying only to be told to shut up, and when the contact went to a Terry search the officer discovered the carry gun, immediately took down the carrier and commenced subduing him the old fashioned way - witness accounts described the officer striking the carrier with his baton while dragging him by his hair towards the patrol unit.

End result: cash settlement, all charges dropped, medical bills paid, firearm returned - in exchange - no public civil suit filed.

The officer in question in the above incident was eventually fired from his agency, not for excessive force or other incidents involving his poor decision making but for totaling his patrol unit, driving in an area out of his departments jurisdiction. No assistance call, no pursuit call, -0- reason to be where he was doing what he was. Pretty clear to observers that he was using that particular road for what many folks used it for, performance driving on a beautifully curved stretch of pavement.
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:39 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Here, CCW instructors give the opposite advice - likely because state law requires that you announce your firearm promptly if you are pulled over and keep your hands in plain sight at all times. We have always done this without incident. Then again, we also don't reach for ID when we are told not to.
I think the problem here may be the semantics -- it depends on how it's taught (or what people take away from their training). You should declare that you have the CCW permit first, then let the officer lead the question to if you have a weapon ready at hand. Not say "I have a weapon" and begin any kind of hand motion. Perhaps something as standard as the Miranda rights.
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:44 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I think the problem here may be the semantics -- it depends on how it's taught (or what people take away from their training). You should declare that you have the CCW permit first, then let the officer lead the question to if you have a weapon ready at hand. Not say "I have a weapon" and begin any kind of hand motion.
Yes, exactly right. If the cop comes to the window and immediately asks for identification, they are given the CCW license first. If the cop asks any questions, the first words in reply are "I have a permit to carry."
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:44 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
I would suggest that you do not announce that you have a gun. Don't even announce that you have a permit to carry a gun. Once the officer is at your window, you tell him you are going to reach for your ID. Hand the officer your Driver license and permit at the same time. Let him digest that. He will then ask if you are carrying. Which at that time you tell him, yes I am. Then do exactly what he asks you to do.
By telling him you have a gun or permit, then reaching for something, he is going to get very nervous. Best to not do that.
Then there is a need for consistency in the law and procedure through out the USA when a driver is stopped. It could be introduced as part of the driving test.
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Old 8th July 2016, 06:46 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Then there is a need for consistency in the law and procedure through out the USA when a driver is stopped. It could be introduced as part of the driving test.
These things are covered under state law, not federal law. And, yes, most states have a CCW class where you are supposed to be told the exact procedure.

The majority of drivers don't carry but most carriers drive, so it wouldn't make sense to move the training from CCW to driver's ed.
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Old 8th July 2016, 07:00 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
These things are covered under state law, not federal law. And, yes, most states have a CCW class where you are supposed to be told the exact procedure.

The majority of drivers don't carry but most carriers drive, so it wouldn't make sense to move the training from CCW to driver's ed.
The lack of clarity and consistency is clearly a problem, as shown by the disagreements in this thread and what happened in the instance being examined.

I think that unarmed drivers should also be made aware of what to do. If I hire a car in the USA, I want to know what to do.
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Old 8th July 2016, 07:05 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Getting shot by an officer during s traffic stop is also not on my mind either. This is the calm we breathe.
Same here, just worry about the bahşiş once in a while.
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Old 8th July 2016, 07:07 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think that unarmed drivers should also be made aware of what to do. If I hire a car in the USA, I want to know what to do.
FYI, If you rent a car* in the US, you need to understand that criminal law and police are state specific. You need to know what to do in the state where you will be driving.




*To clarify, if you are driving the car, in the US this is called "car rental." To "hire a car" generally means paying for a car and driver.

Last edited by AdamSK; 8th July 2016 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 8th July 2016, 07:18 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The lack of clarity and consistency is clearly a problem, as shown by the disagreements in this thread and what happened in the instance being examined.

I think that unarmed drivers should also be made aware of what to do. If I hire a car in the USA, I want to know what to do.
Although written by a Minnesota lawyer in 2012 this advice is nearly identical to what I was taught in Massachusetts public school driver education classes in the 70s and has worked well for me over the decades.

Know Your Rights: Traffic Stop
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:02 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Are you talking about the officer or the civilian?
Can we find some other term instead of civilian? Police officers are civilians, not an occupying military force. I think part of the problem is that many people, including LEOs do not see it this way.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:03 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Can we find some other term instead of civilian? Police officers are civilians, not an occupying military force. I think part of the problem is that many people, including LEOs do not see it this way.
Fair point. Wasn't sure what else to use. Sam Vimes would be cross at me.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:10 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
FYI, If you rent a car* in the US, you need to understand that criminal law and police are state specific. You need to know what to do in the state where you will be driving.




*To clarify, if you are driving the car, in the US this is called "car rental." To "hire a car" generally means paying for a car and driver.
Since your life can depend on getting it right, both driver and police, a nationally agreed code of practice would reduce risks.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:22 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
The Minneapolis Star Tribune has posted a transcript of the Facebook video @ http://www.startribune.com/transcrip...deo/385850431/
Thanks for posting that. It's equally sad and horrifying. Unfortunately, it's after the shooting and we only have her word on what happened prior to her video. Does anyone know if there is bodycam or dashcam footage of the entire stop? I can't find anything in the news articles.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:40 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
Feel free to do whatever Mr. Hannity suggests. I'll be following the advice of a professional firearms instructor.
If I did everything wrong I would still have less chance of being shot as a black man who does everything correct.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:46 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Max_mang View Post
Thanks for posting that. It's equally sad and horrifying. Unfortunately, it's after the shooting and we only have her word on what happened prior to her video. Does anyone know if there is bodycam or dashcam footage of the entire stop? I can't find anything in the news articles.
That was my curiosity also. There are many things that could have happened prior to the beginning of the video. She was oddly well-composed. Nevertheless, no matter what the cop says happened, the veracity of it will be questioned extensively.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:55 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
That was my curiosity also. There are many things that could have happened prior to the beginning of the video. She was oddly well-composed. Nevertheless, no matter what the cop says happened, the veracity of it will be questioned extensively.
I would be composed if I had had it drummed into me by repeated shootings that I am at high risk of being shot by the police and I was protecting myself and my daughter. She was also clearly working to the camera as she gathered evidence of what was happening. Well done her.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:56 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Since your life can depend on getting it right, both driver and police, a nationally agreed code of practice would reduce risks.
The federal government doesn't have the authority to do that. Police powers are generally left to the states. That's how our Constitution works.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:57 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
The federal government doesn't have the authority to do that. Police powers are generally left to the states. That's how our Constitution works.
Can't the feds just threaten to take the highway money away again like they did for drinking ages?
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In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old 8th July 2016, 09:59 AM   #236
AdamSK
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
If I did everything wrong I would still have less chance of being shot as a black man who does everything correct.
No, if you violently assault a police officer while white, you have a much higher chance of being shot than if you sit with your hands in plain sight while black.

The main difference is that, when a white man violently assaults a police officer and is shot for it, it's not news.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:01 AM   #237
AdamSK
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Can't the feds just threaten to take the highway money away again like they did for drinking ages?
They probably could not take the highway funding away, but they probably could take police funding away, yes. Note that many more states would be willing to stick to their own rules and forego the money in that case than in the case of drinking ages or speed limits and highway funds.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:06 AM   #238
Newtons Bit
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
They probably could not take the highway funding away, but they probably could take police funding away, yes. Note that many more states would be willing to stick to their own rules and forego the money in that case than in the case of drinking ages or speed limits and highway funds.
Funding can come with any attachments, it doesn't have to be related to the projects funded.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:09 AM   #239
Wayward son
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
No, if you violently assault a police officer while white, you have a much higher chance of being shot than if you sit with your hands in plain sight while black.

The main difference is that, when a white man violently assaults a police officer and is shot for it, it's not news.
When a white man violently assaults a police officer and is shot for it, it shouldn't be news.

When a black man is shot sitting with his hands in plain sight, it should be news.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:13 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
The federal government doesn't have the authority to do that. Police powers are generally left to the states. That's how our Constitution works.
I forgot that common sense and cooperation do not apply in the USA when it comes to guns.
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