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Tags gun incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 8th July 2016, 10:13 AM   #241
AdamSK
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Funding can come with any attachments, it doesn't have to be related to the projects funded.
Not according to the Supreme Court. See South Dakota v Dole.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:20 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Here, CCW instructors give the opposite advice - likely because state law requires that you announce your firearm.
That is NOT the law in Minnesota you are not required to notify there.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:21 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I forgot that common sense and cooperation do not apply in the USA when it comes to guns.
Your lack of understanding of federalism isn't our problem. This is a constitutionality thing, not a gun thing, and it applies to criminal law generally, not just guns.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:22 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
This gets confusing. 2 years ago Sean Hannity, knowing police treat white and black people the exact same, told people how to not get shot by the police and in his imaginary experiences of being pulled over the very first thing you needed to do was tell the officer you had a gun. Now it is the opposite.
Well, there's your problem.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:23 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Can we find some other term instead of civilian? Police officers are civilians, not an occupying military force. I think part of the problem is that many people, including LEOs do not see it this way.
I agree with you .. but the english language and dictionaries do not.

Civilian is defined as "a person not in the armed services or the police force"

Last edited by Yeggster; 8th July 2016 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:29 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
That is NOT the law in Minnesota you are not required to notify there.
That's true. However, Minnesota courts have also held that they can arrest you for having a firearm without even inquiring as to your permit status. So take that into account when you decide to "hide the ball" on your gun permit.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:33 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Not according to the Supreme Court. See South Dakota v Dole.
Not seeing the relation here.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:37 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I agree with you .. but the english language and dictionaries do not.
Dictionaries tend to reflect broadest usage. The Geneva Convention and most codes of war place law enforcement officers in the category of civilians.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:38 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Your lack of understanding of federalism isn't our problem. This is a constitutionality thing, not a gun thing, and it applies to criminal law generally, not just guns.
I understand federalism. The English/Welsh and Scottish legal systems are different, except when it makes sense to cooperate and have one law covering both. For example, in the UK the Firearms Act covers all of the country.

US states could do the same thing. The constitution does not make it impossible.

One simple system across the USA on how to act when stopped by police and you have a gun is common sense. It would not harm anyone. it would have a positive benefit.
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Old 8th July 2016, 10:41 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Not seeing the relation here.
When deciding whether a condition on federal funding is lawful, whether it is reasonably related to the expenditure of funds is part of the consideration. You can withhold highway funds on a condition that effects highway safety, for example, but you can't withhold funds for fighting HIV/AIDS if an organization refuses to vocally oppose prostitution.

Last edited by AdamSK; 8th July 2016 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 8th July 2016, 11:07 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
That's true. However, Minnesota courts have also held that they can arrest you for having a firearm without even inquiring as to your permit status. So take that into account when you decide to "hide the ball" on your gun permit.
I don't understand why you are referring to me personally?

I neither live in the US, nor have a gun permit.
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Old 8th July 2016, 11:11 AM   #252
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has the shooter cop been tested for steroids ?

when the famous baseball player A-Rod was caught for steroids
more cops then pro-sports guys were found to be using steroids
from that one local illegal clinic

steroid use is known to result in paranoia and roid-rage
an esp dangerous STATE in an armed cop ON THE STREETS
BUT VERY VERY FEW COPS ARE TESTED FOR STERIODS
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Old 8th July 2016, 11:11 AM   #253
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I got pulled over once when I used to carry, and the method I used worked very well. I rolled down the window and put my hands on the steering wheel. Then I told the officer, "I have a weapon. I have a permit to carry it concealed. It is in the glove compartment with the weapon. I am going to slowly open the glove compartment and remove the permit." He said that would be okay, and I did what I said I would do. We talked pistols for a couple minutes and he let me off with a warning (don't even remember what he pulled me over for).

It probably helped that I'm white.

We don't know for sure what happened prior to Castile being shot, but I'm leaning heavily toward the girlfriend's account that the cop at best screwed up royally. We only see him after he's shot Castile, so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt that he was "hysterical" because he had just shot someone to death, and not that he had been in that state before pulling the trigger (at least that's how it sounds to me, which leads me away from "cold blooded murder" for the time being). I'm thinking jumpy cop, waaaaay too quick on the draw (assuming he didn't have his pistol aimed at Castile with finger on trigger in the first place) who saw in his mind a black man with a gun who reached for it too quickly and panicked or fired out of reflex. At the end of the day every scenario is unacceptable.
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Old 8th July 2016, 12:18 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by nota View Post
has the shooter cop been tested for steroids ?

when the famous baseball player A-Rod was caught for steroids
more cops then pro-sports guys were found to be using steroids
from that one local illegal clinic

steroid use is known to result in paranoia and roid-rage
an esp dangerous STATE in an armed cop ON THE STREETS
BUT VERY VERY FEW COPS ARE TESTED FOR STERIODS


Would not doubt steroids as part of the problem.
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Old 8th July 2016, 12:37 PM   #255
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People on this forum continue to don the robes of authority and speak as if they had expertise, but I don't think even one of us has been shot and killed by a cop.
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Old 8th July 2016, 12:48 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I got pulled over once when I used to carry, and the method I used worked very well. I rolled down the window and put my hands on the steering wheel. Then I told the officer, "I have a weapon. I have a permit to carry it concealed. It is in the glove compartment with the weapon. I am going to slowly open the glove compartment and remove the permit."
Here's where I think the litany is important. I'd do it this way:

Once the officer asks the first question (likely "Do you know why I pulled you over?") my reply would be "No" and assuming I could continue without being interrupted, "I have to tell you that I have a permit (let that sink in) to carry a concealed weapon", and follow up with whatever questions or instructions he gives.

My main point being -- the first operative word should be "permit", not "weapon".
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Old 8th July 2016, 01:08 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
“Officer, I want to let you know that I have a concealed carry permit, I currently have one on my person. How would you like me to proceed?”

If he asks for ID you say ... "I am Carrying in a waistband holster located about 5 o’clock which is the same general location as my wallet wallet ... do you want me to go ahead?"
Then it should be on the officer to, instead of saying "get your ID", say "if your ID is near your gun then slowly step out of the car with your hands where I can see them; only if your ID is distant from your gun should you get out your ID and show it to me".
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Old 8th July 2016, 01:26 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
My main point being -- the first operative word should be "permit", not "weapon".
Because there is such a low expectation for what trained professional law enforcement agents can and cannot understand, the solution to this problem is to train everyone else the right and wrong ways to deal with the police?

I really don't understand this view point.
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Old 8th July 2016, 02:03 PM   #259
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How can anyone watch that video and not see the basket case nervous wreck cop? He's freaking out. That's not a properly trained cop. That's why the man was killed.
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Old 8th July 2016, 02:07 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
How can anyone watch that video and not see the basket case nervous wreck cop? He's freaking out. That's not a properly trained cop. That's why the man was killed.
Is that video from before the shooting? I saw the post-shooting transcript and, yeah, he was nervous there.

If you're referencing the same thing I saw the transcript of, I don't think that speaks to his training. Any decent human being should be a nervous wreck after finding out they just shot a man who didn't deserve it.
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Old 8th July 2016, 02:07 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
How can anyone watch that video and not see the basket case nervous wreck cop? He's freaking out. That's not a properly trained cop. That's why the man was killed.
How did you act the first time you shot someone?
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Old 8th July 2016, 02:30 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
How did you act the first time you shot someone?
Exactly .. Ive had an unusually large volume of firearms shotgun pistol and rifle .. I've hunted animals since I was a young boy, served in the military (reserves) but never in battle, had lots of pretend missions and blank fire battles.

I've defended expensive livestock and poultry against animals that might want to eat them.

I have NO IDEA what it might be like to shoot someone ... and I have no idea how I might act/react in that kind of situation, and hope I never find out!

I live in an area where I feel no need to have a firearm at the ready for personal protection and have never felt the need to do so.
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Old 8th July 2016, 02:32 PM   #263
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This is much more typical of the kind of events that occur around here -- at least, in "that" area. I mean, like, weekly.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/0...mpls-shooting/

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Because there is such a low expectation for what trained professional law enforcement agents can and cannot understand, the solution to this problem is to train everyone else the right and wrong ways to deal with the police?

I really don't understand this view point.
Because if I am in a situation where I can be shot and killed, I want to do everything I can to prevent that and not count on the other guy not having had six cups of coffee that morning.

Last edited by alfaniner; 8th July 2016 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 8th July 2016, 02:58 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Exactly .. Ive had an unusually large volume of firearms shotgun pistol and rifle .. I've hunted animals since I was a young boy, served in the military (reserves) but never in battle, had lots of pretend missions and blank fire battles.

I've defended expensive livestock and poultry against animals that might want to eat them.

I have NO IDEA what it might be like to shoot someone ... and I have no idea how I might act/react in that kind of situation, and hope I never find out!

I live in an area where I feel no need to have a firearm at the ready for personal protection and have never felt the need to do so.
Decent police forces train their cops properly. In use of firearms and how to behave if they use firearms. This training doesn't include "screeching like a child and arguing with the partner of someone shot".
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Old 8th July 2016, 03:02 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Decent police forces train their cops properly. In use of firearms and how to behave if they use firearms. This training doesn't include "screeching like a child and arguing with the partner of someone shot".
That's interesting. Tell me more about this "just shot a guy, and how to control your emotions" training.
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Old 8th July 2016, 03:05 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Since data on unarmed men killed by cops is not kept, where do you recommend we look?
Don't know, don't care where you look. A claim was made; much like the idiotic ones we see from truthers who say the WTC was a CD based on reports that firefighters "heard explosions". It was implied that the Raleigh police will kill blacks for certain activities but allow whites to live. Tell us what your research reveals instead of settling for a mere anecdote.

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Old 8th July 2016, 03:07 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
You'd think the NRA would be all over this, but they've been strangely silent.
Are you certain they're not merely waiting for more info prior to making a statement? Is this the first CCW holder that was killed by the police that they have failed to comment on right away?

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Old 8th July 2016, 03:13 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I am from England. i have been stopped once in a hire car in Arizona. I probably did all the things I was not supposed to do. So I guess i am lucky not to be shot.
Not lucky at all. I've been pulled over in Minnesota, Virginia, Florida, Idaho, Texas and Oklahoma. Never did I freeze with my hands on the wheel. I never told them I had a concealed carry permit and I never saw their hand on their sidearm when getting my registration or license out. I've never had a reason to fear the police.

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Old 8th July 2016, 03:15 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Decent police forces train their cops properly. In use of firearms and how to behave if they use firearms. This training doesn't include "screeching like a child and arguing with the partner of someone shot".
There's no training for that ... watch the blood drain out of a kid and the life dim in his eyes is not covered.

Firearms training is only a small part of police training ... most forces it's a half day once a year ... at a paper target, indoors, that's not moving.
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Old 8th July 2016, 03:45 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
How did you act the first time you shot someone?
I'm a person, not a COP. What part of this is so hard for people to understand? You don't throw inexperienced, reckless, untrained, nervous cops out into the world and give them a gun and permission to shoot people.

There was NO REASON for him to shoot the guy. I said this before and I'll say it again. We live in a country where it is LEGAL to carry a gun. So enough of this ******** that the cop saw a gun and felt he was in danger. Why would you feel you are in danger when a person is doing something perfectly legal? You can't have it both ways. Why would you panic when someone is doing something perfectly LEGAL?


People have guns all over the place. He informed the cop that he had a gun and then the cop shot him for reaching towards the gun. He didn't dispute the woman saying her story. He panicked.

Here's a nice example. Again, it's LEGAL. Both men did something completely legal. Look at the difference and tell me that racism has nothing to do with it.

How far down the rabbit hole of denial have people packed themselves that they cannot see what is plainly obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXv2Pjtc3Zk
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Old 8th July 2016, 03:55 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
.... We live in a country where it is LEGAL to carry a gun. ..... Why would you panic when someone is doing something perfectly LEGAL?
Well? .. you have good point there ... In Canada there's not many places where people can carry a gun around ... but it's happened to me a few times

.. I've seen police officers, whom were at the gun range, and perfectly comfortable with all of us having pistols in our holsters

I've been stopped by armed hunting conservation officers (routine checking licenses) and they had no problem I was holding a shotgun or rifle

That's police "interacting with the pubic" .. not that different really from reminding someone they have a "busted out taillight"

Good point.
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:06 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Well? .. you have good point there ... In Canada there's not many places where people can carry a gun around ... but it's happened to me a few times

.. I've seen police officers, whom were at the gun range, and perfectly comfortable with all of us having pistols in our holsters

I've been stopped by armed hunting conservation officers (routine checking licenses) and they had no problem I was holding a shotgun or rifle

That's police "interacting with the pubic" .. not that different really from reminding someone they have a "busted out taillight"

Good point.

If a white guy was in a car and told the cop he had a gun, the impression would be that he was a card carrying member of the NRA and a red blooded American.

The only time a cop might panic would be if the white guy looked like a Meth head in the car. Then he might "look like trouble" and the cop would react differently.

That's the essential problem. It's both class and race. Black men "look like trouble" because they are black. Until we acknowledge this discrepancy and admit the bias, then nothing will change.


We've gotten used to them dragging out previous records, or trying to use the guys previous history to justify the cops initial perception. But this guy was a "good guy" who "looked like trouble" just because he was black.

The cop couldn't compute beyond that. Not consider the 4 year old in the back seat and the obviously calm demeanor of his girlfriend. It didn't register. All that registered is "black guy with a gun - thug"
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:17 PM   #273
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Early local news reports that the audio of the incident (the first part, that was not filmed), does not correlate with the narrated description of what happened.

Although this never should have happened, I believe it's more of a horrendous mistake than an execution. Of course the guy was shaken after he realized that mistake.
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:20 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Early local news reports that the audio of the incident (the first part, that was not filmed), does not correlate with the narrated description of what happened.

Although this never should have happened, I believe it's more of a horrendous mistake than an execution. Of course the guy was shaken after he realized that mistake.
Someone today, a black friend of mine, begged white people to stop being silent and to "say something." I couldn't think of what to say.

Then I wrote this. This is how I feel about what you just said.

Ok I'll say something. I think a lot of white people aren't saying anything because we're ashamed of what we have seen over the last two days. And we feel like it's intrusive to step into the dialogue because coming from a position of privilege it's once again making it about "our opinion" on something we really cannot understand.

We think about the shame and then can't quite put our finger on what we are ashamed about because we've been on the side of justice and equality for so long. So we might feel like we're adding fuel to the fire. Or speaking up when we ought to just shut up and listen.

I've said as much on another friends wall. I'm speechless. And so after thinking about this for two days, and wondering where the shame is located in my heart, I realize what I'm ashamed about and what I'd like to say to the black community.

I'm sorry I didn't believe you before I had to see death after death on camera. I'm sorry that when incidents like this happened in the past I was so easily manipulated by the media spin that pointed out that the person involved "had a juvenile record" or "was reaching for a gun" or ...or...or...

I'm sorry I cut the bad cops slack and thought "It was a misunderstanding that cost someone their life, but it wasn't racism."

I'm sorry I participated in creating a paradigm where I was hoping that there would be a rational reason and I let my own cognitive dissonance accept the "ridiculous excuse" as valid instead of understanding the truth.

I'm sorry for every second I didn't pay enough attention, I didn't take the claims seriously, I judged that people who have interactions with the police might have been complicit in the consequence. I'm sorry for every single time I didn't believe you. I have not only blood on my hands, I have the wounds of a community, the deep sadness, the injustice and ruins of a country on my hands. All because. for over 15 years I didn't believe you. And for this I am deeply ashamed. I will do better, I promise you.
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:22 PM   #275
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This guy was pulled over because he matched a BOLO description for an armed robber and was in the same area where the robbery took place. He also had a gun resting on his thigh. The sheriff said he had never applied for a carry permit, so he was never issued one.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...g/#more-118450
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:31 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I'm a person, not a COP. What part of this is so hard for people to understand?
So basically what you were saying, before the long rant, was that you've never shot someone and have no idea how you or anyone would likely react after doing so. K thx.
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:32 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
This guy was pulled over because he matched a BOLO description for an armed robber and was in the same area where the robbery took place. He also had a gun resting on his thigh. The sheriff said he had never applied for a carry permit, so he was never issued one.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com...g/#more-118450
Saw this earlier, but didn't post as I wasn't sure of the source. Would seem to change things.
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:32 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
He informed the cop that he had a gun and then the cop shot him for reaching towards the gun.
Perhaps you missed the multiple times it been pointed out that the girlfriend disagrees with your statement. She says he was reaching in his pocket when, not after, he informed the cop he had a gun.

To make it very clear the girlfriend's story is:
  1. Cop asks for ID
  2. Boyfriend starts reaching in pocket for ID
  3. Boyfriend tells cop he has gun
If you want the direct quotes from the transcript of her video and paraphrases from the Guardian look back up thread.

This incident is a horrible tragedy with little documentation, we should stick to the most accurate information we can in this discussion.
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:35 PM   #279
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I love how something that looks like the belt part of the seatbelt on his lap is now being construed as a "gun." It could very well be his cell phone. But nooooooo anything to find an "excuse." If you read the link it's "Doesn't it make MORE sense to believe that the cop shot him because he fit the description of a criminal"
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Old 8th July 2016, 04:39 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Are you certain they're not merely waiting for more info prior to making a statement? Is this the first CCW holder that was killed by the police that they have failed to comment on right away?

Ranb
No, they're not saying anything because the victims were black. Just *********** say it.
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