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Tags gun incidents , police incidents , police misconduct charges , shooting incidents

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Old 9th July 2016, 03:39 PM   #321
Giordano
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
It just so happens the source I listed has a link to the recording of the officer calling in and saying he is pulling them over because the driver matches the description of an armed-robbery BOLO that occured only a few blocks away. It has the 5 items listed in the description and compares it to the driver, and it does fit him exactly. It has a CCTV still of the perp actually engaged in the armed robbery. It has a picture of the gun resting on Castile's thigh after he was shot. It has a tweet from the Sheriff saying Castile had never applied for a carry permit so he never been issued one. It also has a picture of their vehicle with both tail lights illuminated.

Oh, and I didn't "smear" anyone. I took him/her to task for dismissing all of this without pointing out a single item that is incorrect. To me, that is not a good-faith argument.
Well, your source is wrong in at least one "fact." See Snopes link above. As to the picture of "the gun?" And if a gun, when it got there? Come on! But these aren't even my point. Some of this may be prove true, some of it is already clearly not true, and most of it is not established either way. Propagating rumors on little or no actual factual evidence in this way is inherently a smear.
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Old 9th July 2016, 04:13 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Well first off Im totally open to the idea that the source is completely biased, racist, not to be trusted. I'd never even heard of it, so that's why I didnt post the link, but I thought it was (if true) interesting additional information.

Now, we're all supposed to be skeptics here, and one of the main things I've found skeptics to be consistent about is the relative (non) value of witness testimony or anecdotes vs. actual physical evidence. All we've pretty much had to go on are the passenger's words, so I'd urge caution to anyone putting too much stock into them. Did we ever determine if the guy actually did have a legal carry permit by the way?

Also, the photos at that link... Im not saying the two men are identical, but if you dont think they match the same general physical description, I dont know that it'd be worth the time debating.

Lastly, new information from the Officer's attorney was released a little while ago:

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/201...ing_offic.html



So now we have conflicting first-hand accounts to go by. Who do you give the benefit of the doubt to and why?

Im willing to let it play out before casting judgment here.
The presence of a gun was not in dispute, in fact the woman has already said as much, and stated that Castile was licensed to carry a concealed gun..

Now if we are to believe that the radio communication is correct, we've run into a major issue with the officer's judgement - namely, he claims that the man and woman in the car "just resemble" the two men in the discovered robbery, which means that he *clearly* misidentified at least the woman in the car.

If we're to avoid speculation, then I'd suggest that everyone drop that robbery from the discussion until we can verify that it's what the cop had in mind, as it would serve as strong evidence for his incompetence.
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Old 9th July 2016, 04:44 PM   #323
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The presence of a gun and the plain view of a gun are wholly different and change the scenario dramatically. To my knowledge that quote is the first mention of the weapon being actively handled.

Also, i don't see the rationale to dropping the robbery thing if it was indeed part of what actually happened. It needs to be fleshed out completely. Could a robbery suspect not travel with a different campanion four days later? Who knows how good a look he got at the driver and passenger?
Ps. I've driven by your avatar countless times. That thing is nuts.
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Old 9th July 2016, 05:18 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Well, you could always prove they have it wrong instead of just making content-free noise.
The burden is on the one making the claim.

For example:
Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Oh, and Martin did assault Zimmerman first, and was the cause of his own death.
If you have evidence to support that claim, you'd be the first ever to do so. Of course, that's a topic for another thread. But, if that rag makes similar claims that you're making, it supports my assessment.
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Old 9th July 2016, 05:58 PM   #325
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Well, you could always prove they have it wrong instead of just making content-free noise. Oh, and Martin did assault Zimmerman first, and was the cause of his own death.
LOGIC ALERT! LOGIC ALERT!



This man needs help recognizing Logical Fallacies!

The man plays with his onus probandi too much! (quit doin' that....it will make you go blind)

Last edited by Jules Galen; 9th July 2016 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 9th July 2016, 06:14 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The presence of a gun and the plain view of a gun are wholly different and change the scenario dramatically. To my knowledge that quote is the first mention of the weapon being actively handled.
There was no word of him handling the gun. The lawyer said that he saw the gun.

Quote:
Also, i don't see the rationale to dropping the robbery thing if it was indeed part of what actually happened. It needs to be fleshed out completely. Could a robbery suspect not travel with a different campanion four days later? Who knows how good a look he got at the driver and passenger?
Because his supposed reason for being so jittery wasn't just that he had *one* person that "fit the description" of these robbers (which, as others have said, is pretty generic - black guy, moustache and braided hair.) The claim was that both people resembled the two men in the robbery. If that's true, and then walks up and sees that one of the "two men" is in fact a woman, and he's still terrified, then he's an idiot who doesn't realize that his fears were entirely unfounded.

Quote:
Ps. I've driven by your avatar countless times. That thing is nuts.
We discussed it in the political forum when people were discussing people removing monuments to the Confederacy. one person suggested tearing that one down, and I agreed.

I'm just saying, the statue clearly lacks an alibi.
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Old 9th July 2016, 09:22 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
No, they're not saying anything because the victims were black. Just *********** say it.
Well it took a few days, but I've read this from the NRA.
Quote:
"As the nation's largest and oldest civil rights organization, the NRA proudly supports the right of law-abiding Americans to carry firearms for defense of themselves and others regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation," the statement, released on Twitter, read.

"The reports from Minnesota are troubling and must be thoroughly investigated. In the meantime, it is important for the NRA not to comment while the investigation is ongoing. Rest assured, the NRA will have more to say once all the facts are known."
I'm not a fan of the NRA, but is there something wrong with failing to be overzealous, not jumping the gun or waiting for a few facts? A few people in this thread have made fools of themselves for failing to gather a few facts.

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Old 9th July 2016, 09:32 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
It just so happens the source I listed has a link to the recording of the officer calling in and saying he is pulling them over because the driver matches the description of an armed-robbery BOLO that occured only a few blocks away. It has the 5 items listed in the description and compares it to the driver, and it does fit him exactly. It has a CCTV still of the perp actually engaged in the armed robbery. It has a picture of the gun resting on Castile's thigh after he was shot. It has a tweet from the Sheriff saying Castile had never applied for a carry permit so he never been issued one. It also has a picture of their vehicle with both tail lights illuminated.

Oh, and I didn't "smear" anyone. I took him/her to task for dismissing all of this without pointing out a single item that is incorrect. To me, that is not a good-faith argument.
Yeah, and Philipe Castille never applied for a Carry Permit in Elk-Piss Minnesota, Rotten-fish Wisconson, or Dog Crap, Texas, either.

So what?

He had the Permit. DEAL!
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Old 10th July 2016, 12:02 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
But that's what I'm saying. Undisputed facts are:

1) car was stopped
2) guy was shot dead

The rest are claims:
1) why was the car stopped
2) why did the policeman say to the guy
3) what the guy did

It's just a claim that he was told to reach for ID, yet it is spread around. It is just a claim that he was reaching for ID, yet it is spread around.
This very thread is named "CCW holder killed reaching for ID", and now it's not even clear if he was CCW holder.
I don't see why other claims and theories should be not talked about, as long as they are clearly stated as claims and theories.

The policeman now claims he saw the gun. Which would make lot more sense to his first recorded words:
"I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand out."


You are telling me not to demonize dead person .. I'm telling you not to demonize the policeman .. not with the amount of information we have.
Even more sense if the cop asked for ID (allegedly the purpose of the stop). Castile, knowing cops can get annoyed if the driver doesn't "promptly" declare a CCW, tells him the ID also shows the CCW.

Cop panics "I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand out."

Castile fails to act on the change in command quickly enough,
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Old 10th July 2016, 02:07 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Even more sense if the cop asked for ID (allegedly the purpose of the stop). Castile, knowing cops can get annoyed if the driver doesn't "promptly" declare a CCW, tells him the ID also shows the CCW.

Cop panics "I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand out."

Castile fails to act on the change in command quickly enough,
Asa reference to how this could easily happen, here's a link to another shooting, this one Chris Hayes playing Groubert's report on what occured to what was caught on his dash camera.

And as always, I don't think that Groubert was lying at all. I think that what he relayed was, in his mind, the absolute truth of what happened. And that frightens me much more.
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Old 10th July 2016, 02:36 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Cop panics "I told him not to reach for it. I told him to get his hand out."
...its interesting that early transcripts have the policeman saying "I told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his head up!" For example:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/america...-facebook-live

Since we are all in the realms of speculating: it wouldn't surprise me if Castile heard or understood the policeman to be saying "get your hands up!" and went to do so and the policeman over-reacted to the change in movement. "Hand out" "Head up" Hands up".
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Old 10th July 2016, 06:07 AM   #332
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I would say that the likelihood of a CCW permit holder out in his car with partner and child is not going to suddenly draw and fire on a police officer.

The cop who killed the driver is going to exaggerate the actions of the driver so as to try and justify his actions to himself and others. Fact is the cop grossly over reacted to a low threat situation, panicked and fired.
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Old 10th July 2016, 07:15 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Could a robbery suspect not travel with a different campanion four days later? Who knows how good a look he got at the driver and passenger?

According to the radio communication transcript posted earlier:

Quote:
“The two occupants just look like people that were involved in a robbery,” the officer says.

The officer expressed his belief that both occupants of the vehicle might be the robbery suspects.
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Old 10th July 2016, 07:38 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
... The cop who killed the driver is going to exaggerate the actions of the driver so as to try and justify his actions to himself and others. Fact is the cop grossly over reacted to a low threat situation, panicked and fired.
My reading as well. There was no crime in progress, or past crime to worry of that we know about, so there is no logical reason for the gentleman to draw intentionally on the officer. Guilty of driving while black, and killed for it.
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Old 10th July 2016, 07:45 AM   #335
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guilty of hyperbole
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Old 10th July 2016, 08:05 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
My reading as well. There was no crime in progress, or past crime to worry of that we know about, so there is no logical reason for the gentleman to draw intentionally on the officer. Guilty of driving while black, and killed for it.
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
guilty of hyperbole
Why do you think that is hyperbole? He was an innocent victim whose looks almost certainly* made him seem more of a risk to the policeman.

The police need better training or screening at the least. Personally, I think that this demonstrates that being in a society where people have easy access to guns makes police more trigger happy, which is understandable**



*There are plenty of articles and studies on institutional and unconscious profiling.

**But not excusable.
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Old 10th July 2016, 08:09 AM   #337
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He had been stopped 52 times previously and more than half the 86 violations against him had been dismissed.

That's a shocking number of dismissed charges.
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Old 10th July 2016, 08:11 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
He somewhat resembles resembles someone who robbed a store, therefore ... it's okay to shoot him?
NO! (and I've never even come close to even implying such a thing)

Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Any updates from any sources that don't sound like Birth of a Nation?
You're equating KARE11 the NBC TV station in Minneapolis to a disgusting Hollywood production that promotes racism and slavery, that's nuts.
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Old 10th July 2016, 08:19 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I said earlier that the root cause of this and other tragedies is the stupid US gun culture. These things simply don't happen in other first world countries
+1 I completely agree with this statement.
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Old 10th July 2016, 10:44 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
NO! (and I've never even come close to even implying such a thing)



You're equating KARE11 the NBC TV station in Minneapolis to a disgusting Hollywood production that promotes racism and slavery, that's nuts.
I went back and looked at what I was replying to, and yeah, I messed up. I apologize.

My intent was to compare what you posted to that crap site Conservative Treehouse, who I absolutely do put on the same level as Birth of a Nation. But that didn't come through.
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Old 10th July 2016, 12:42 PM   #341
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It turns out the cop who shot Castile wasn't Chinese after all; his lawyer says he is Mexican and he was reacting to the "presence of a gun", whatever that means.

"This is a tragic incident brought about by the officer having to react to the actions taken by Mr. Castile," Minneapolis attorney Thomas Kelly said Saturday. "This case has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun. Again, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the presence of a gun."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ing-do-n606471
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Old 10th July 2016, 01:11 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
It turns out the cop who shot Castile wasn't Chinese after all; his lawyer says he is Mexican and he was reacting to the "presence of a gun", whatever that means.

"This is a tragic incident brought about by the officer having to react to the actions taken by Mr. Castile," Minneapolis attorney Thomas Kelly said Saturday. "This case has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun. Again, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the presence of a gun."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ing-do-n606471
Thank you for making a very good argument for abolition of the outdated and unnecessary 2nd Amendment.
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Old 10th July 2016, 01:20 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
It turns out the cop who shot Castile wasn't Chinese after all; his lawyer says he is Mexican and he was reacting to the "presence of a gun", whatever that means.

"This is a tragic incident brought about by the officer having to react to the actions taken by Mr. Castile," Minneapolis attorney Thomas Kelly said Saturday. "This case has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun. Again, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the presence of a gun."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ing-do-n606471
Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Thank you for making a very good argument for abolition of the outdated and unnecessary 2nd Amendment.
Yes, the presence of a gun that he had a permit for.

The second Amendment doesn't make one safer from the authorities, it just makes the authorities more trigger happy.
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Old 10th July 2016, 01:57 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
He had been stopped 52 times previously and more than half the 86 violations against him had been dismissed.

That's a shocking number of dismissed charges.
From the link;
Quote:
He was assessed at least $6,588 in fines and fees, although more than half of the total 86 violations were dismissed, court records show.
I can just imagine the radio call in prior to the shooting; "See what else we charge him with to enhance our revenue stream."
And then after the shooting; "WTF dude, where are we going to get money for more ammo?!"

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Old 10th July 2016, 02:02 PM   #345
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Ranb, I did have a similar mental image
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Old 10th July 2016, 02:28 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
"This is a tragic incident brought about by the officer having to react to the actions taken by Mr. Castile," Minneapolis attorney Thomas Kelly said Saturday. "This case has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the presence of a gun. Again, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with the presence of a gun."
Good try, but "tragic" is unnecessary, and "brought about by the officer" clearly indicates the officer played a major role. But extra points for the use of "presence of a gun" to imply that the gun itself had anything to do with it instead of the cop shooting as soon as the guy said "I have a gun-." Also, penalty for the use of the present tense when a shift to past tense would be justifiable.

7/10, would be involved in a related incident with again.

Reference: McSweeney's Guide to Ambiguous Grammar
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Old 10th July 2016, 02:52 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Good try, but "tragic" is unnecessary, and "brought about by the officer" clearly indicates the officer played a major role. But extra points for the use of "presence of a gun" to imply that the gun itself had anything to do with it instead of the cop shooting as soon as the guy said "I have a gun-." Also, penalty for the use of the present tense when a shift to past tense would be justifiable.

7/10, would be involved in a related incident with again.

Reference: McSweeney's Guide to Ambiguous Grammar
Do you have a source for this fascinating scenario? I don't know what actually happened, but I do know if it was me, and I had been pulled over by the police 52 times, I wouldn't have a handgun out where they could see it. This is just common sense. I keep my registration and insurance card in a little plastic envelope clipped to the sun visor so I don't have to reach into the glove compartment if I get pulled over. That's because there is usually a loaded gun in there.
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:05 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you have a source for this fascinating scenario? I don't know what actually happened, but I do know if it was me, and I had been pulled over by the police 52 times, I wouldn't have a handgun out where they could see it. This is just common sense. I keep my registration and insurance card in a little plastic envelope clipped to the sun visor so I don't have to reach into the glove compartment if I get pulled over. That's because there is usually a loaded gun in there.
There is no evidence at all that the gun could be seen
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:06 PM   #349
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It's not that complicated .. cops will never want you to handle the gun. If they feel the need, they will make you get out of the car and take the gun themselves off your body.
And since they never want people to handle the gun, if you do, it must be considered as possible attack. And you can't wait till the other person aims at you .. those are fractions of seconds .. and cops have no obligations to wait if you are going to shoot or not.
You got stopped by a cop and you touch your gun .. you will be shot. That's the risk of carrying a gun.
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:07 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It's not that complicated .. cops will never want you to handle the gun. If they feel the need, they will make you get out of the car and take the gun themselves off your body.
And since they never want people to handle the gun, if you do, it must be considered as possible attack. And you can't wait till the other person aims at you .. those are fractions of seconds .. and cops have no obligations to wait if you are going to shoot or not.
You got stopped by a cop and you touch your gun .. you will be shot. That's the risk of carrying a gun.
Again, no evidence of this
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:12 PM   #351
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May I ask a question that really does not have a secret agenda or "gotcha!" goal? In an open carry state, what happens if the police stop you and you have a gun sitting on your lap as they approach your car? Is it illegal to have a gun openly exposed in such a fashion in these states (if so what exactly does open carry permit)? What are you supposed to tell the police officer as they approach your car? "Officer I have a gun in my lap" doesn't quite sound like the best approach to me...
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:16 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you have a source for this fascinating scenario? I don't know what actually happened, but I do know if it was me, and I had been pulled over by the police 52 times, I wouldn't have a handgun out where they could see it. This is just common sense. I keep my registration and insurance card in a little plastic envelope clipped to the sun visor so I don't have to reach into the glove compartment if I get pulled over. That's because there is usually a loaded gun in there.
Better reach for that registration and insurance slowly lest the police think that you have a gun in the visor:

https://www.amazon.com/Holster-holst.../dp/B00HJZBB52

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Old 10th July 2016, 03:18 PM   #353
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
You got stopped by a cop and you touch your gun .. you will be shot. That's the risk of carrying a gun.
No, the cop only has to think you touched your gun. In fact you don't even have to have a gun for the cop to think you are touching it.

So bottom line, if you are stopped by a cop then you can expect to be shot!
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:36 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
Do you have a source for this fascinating scenario? I don't know what actually happened, but I do know if it was me, and I had been pulled over by the police 52 times, I wouldn't have a handgun out where they could see it. This is just common sense. I keep my registration and insurance card in a little plastic envelope clipped to the sun visor so I don't have to reach into the glove compartment if I get pulled over. That's because there is usually a loaded gun in there.
The cop didn't see the gun. He didn't touch the gun. He didn't reach for the gun. But the gun was present. So it involved the presence of the gun. Get it?

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
May I ask a question that really does not have a secret agenda or "gotcha!" goal? In an open carry state, what happens if the police stop you and you have a gun sitting on your lap as they approach your car? Is it illegal to have a gun openly exposed in such a fashion in these states (if so what exactly does open carry permit)? What are you supposed to tell the police officer as they approach your car? "Officer I have a gun in my lap" doesn't quite sound like the best approach to me...
The advice I've heard is to leave it strapped in a holster on your dashboard, so that it's a) immediately visible and b) not easily accessible without some involved reaching and unstrapping. It also helps a lot to not be black, and/or not meet a cop who'll interpret every twitch you make as "he's goin' for his gun, SHOOT HIM!"
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:43 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
... I've been pulled over in Minnesota, Virginia, Florida, Idaho, Texas and Oklahoma.
This brings up one element of the story that, as a foreigner, I don't really have a grasp on. How common is it for a driver to be pulled over by the police in the US?

I've been driving in the UK for over 25 years and got stopped exactly once (by a cop standing in a bus shelter at the roadside, waiting to ticket miscreants like me who thought using 100 yards of empty bus lane to reach their turning was preferable to sitting in a traffic jam).

Anyway, my point is that I now gather the shot man had 52 previous traffic stops to his name, and Ranb describes having been stopped in six states. Just how regularly does the average US driver get pulled over?
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Old 10th July 2016, 03:49 PM   #356
Beelzebuddy
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
This brings up one element of the story that, as a foreigner, I don't really have a grasp on. How common is it for a driver to be pulled over by the police in the US?

I've been driving in the UK for over 25 years and got stopped exactly once (by a cop standing in a bus shelter at the roadside, waiting to ticket miscreants like me who thought using 100 yards of empty bus lane to reach their turning was preferable to sitting in a traffic jam).

Anyway, my point is that I now gather the shot man had 52 previous traffic stops to his name, and Ranb describes having been stopped in six states. Just how regularly does the average US driver get pulled over?
Fairly rarely, unless one drives aggressively, or is of the wrong race for their location. The slang term for the latter is a DWB, or "driving while black." Having over half of his citations overturned gives a good indication as to which category our good driver fell into.

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Old 10th July 2016, 04:16 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Fairly rarely, unless one drives aggressively, or is of the wrong race for their location. The slang term for the latter is a DWB, or "driving while black." Having over half of his citations overturned gives a good indication as to which category our good driver fell into.
Thanks for that, though I'm still trying to interpret what counts as "fairly rarely". Would that be closer to "maybe once in a decade" or to "maybe once a year"?
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Old 10th July 2016, 04:53 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
...
That's a shocking number of dismissed charges.
Not really .. most people don't take their tickets to court ... as a teen I worked nightshift 1 and a half hours away ... and I drove like an idiot with $50 vehicles that should not have been on the road ...

.. I had time during the day and I took EVERY ticket to court ... I got 2/3ds dismissed .. and every ticket (but maybe 2 or 3) reduced the fine payable
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Old 10th July 2016, 05:03 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Thanks for that, though I'm still trying to interpret what counts as "fairly rarely". Would that be closer to "maybe once in a decade" or to "maybe once a year"?
Once a decade. I think I was last stopped in 2008, for a new law I didn't know about. And around 2000 before that, in a speed trap.
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Old 10th July 2016, 05:24 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Just how regularly does the average US driver get pulled over?
Im in Canada and frankly have "not great driving skills" .. I've even been stopped in a Walmart parking (stone sober at 10:00am) to see if I was drunk driving

And I get stopped about an average of 2 times a year.
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