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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 20th March 2017, 07:00 PM   #121
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Try reading this for some perspective:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...-media-w471074

Hope it helps.
I'm not buying this from the article:
Quote:
But it could also be true that both the Democratic Party and many leading media outlets are making a dangerous gamble, betting their professional and political capital on the promise of future disclosures that may not come.
The public is not that sophisticated. Just as no matter the evidence the alt-facts coming from the Trump camp are demonstrably wrong, the same will happen here if the smoke clears and there is nothing there.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:02 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Also, they should ask about the pee pee tape. It would be fun to have a clip of Comey refusing to confirm or deny if it's real.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:03 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
So many accusations. Not one fact.
Bull. And I shouldn't have to list them for you.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:07 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Guy talking now is doing his best to confuse the baseline level of Russian interference with the focused attack favoring Trump.
I lost track of which Pubbie said it, but one of them told Comey not to believe the GOP platform on the Ukraine was ever softened. He claimed it never happened.

I looked it up, apparently the original version is not available online so we can see the changes. At the same time, no one denied the change until now that I'm aware of, including Trump who said in an interview, "I believe it was softened" while claiming he had nothing to do with it.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:15 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Who's pretending anything? The distinction is real, and important. If the Russians tried to influence the outcome in order to defeat Hillary Clinton- obviously they would pick the person likely to defeat her (Trump, in this case) to aid- that does not indicate any fondness for Trump, only disdain for Clinton. OTOH, if they decided to aid Trumps campaign because they expect something in return from Trump, or because they feel Trump will harm the country in some way that another candidate wouldn't, the implications are different.
How is that distinction relevant? It doesn't prove Trump's campaign staff weren't involved in the hacking affair. At a minimum it looks like they got information about the Podesta hack before it was released on Wikileaks (the citation is somewhere upthread about a Tweet that went out before Wikileaks posted the Podesta emails).

Why would Trump have to offer Putin something in order to be involved in Putin's attacks on Clinton?

It looks though (based on the current circumstantial evidence) that Putin may have expected more from Trump than he is getting: lifting of sanctions, softening position on Ukraine (remains to be seen) and at some point between Trump and Tillerson it looks like oil drilling in the Arctic is still a desired goal.

Trump turns out to be so incompetent, Putin may be having buyer's remorse.

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Old 20th March 2017, 07:54 PM   #126
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I suspect that Putin has by now realised he doesn't need to get to Trump's team to cause problems for the USA. All he has to do is pay one of the Fox channel's commentators to spout what Putin wants spread. Trump will pick it up and run with it.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:04 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I suspect that Putin has by now realised he doesn't need to get to Trump's team to cause problems for the USA. All he has to do is pay one of the Fox channel's commentators to spout what Putin wants spread. Trump will pick it up and run with it.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:44 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I suspect that Putin has by now realised he doesn't need to get to Trump's team to cause problems for the USA. All he has to do is pay one of the Fox channel's commentators to spout what Putin wants spread. Trump will pick it up and run with it.
I picture a bunch of Russians sitting around thinking up stupid **** to feed Trump, then laughing their heads off when the gag exceeds their expectations.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:54 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I picture a bunch of Russians sitting around thinking up stupid **** to feed Trump, then laughing their heads off when the gag exceeds their expectations.
Still waiting for some facts.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:58 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Still waiting for some facts.
Which facts are those?

RT started the fake story, what's his face the CT guy went with it, Fox's Napolitano repeated it and Trump took the story and Tweeted it.

Pretty sure that is the accepted chain of events.

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Old 21st March 2017, 06:46 AM   #131
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I'm embarrassed on behalf of Gowdy and the rest of the Trump water carriers on the committee. Leaks, leaks, and more leaks, heaven forbid, never mind Russian influence in the election and the Liar in Chief.
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Old 21st March 2017, 09:42 AM   #132
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Reading through the OP and the thread and looking at the media headlines... and looking at what has been said by Clapper and other intel heads.


This russia issue is becoming more of a conspiracy theory than anything else. The media keeps claiming all of these Russia issues are bomb shells... uh... no. Clapper already covered the deal with the amount of evidence to Russia's involvement. While this doesnt mean nothing will be found in the future... there is at the moment no evidence (clappers words). We have also known in some form that russian interference has been under investigation. I am unsure how the media interprets that announcement as any thing shocking or new

As to Trump having a relationship with Putin at all... thats plausible. But that man flip flops like a mad dance and does his own damage to himself with his own rhetoric.

Im just sitting here watching the media belly aching with paranoia and ratings pursuits over objective reporting while Trump embodies alot of the childish crap ive come to hate...

My how this society has fallen
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:20 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
... This russia issue is becoming more of a conspiracy theory than anything else.... My how this society has fallen
Yes. To sleazy propaganda and loose thinking. It's as if much of the country had never read history, not even last week's, or could understand sworn testimony.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:25 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Reading through the OP and the thread and looking at the media headlines... and looking at what has been said by Clapper and other intel heads.


This russia issue is becoming more of a conspiracy theory than anything else. The media keeps claiming all of these Russia issues are bomb shells... uh... no. Clapper already covered the deal with the amount of evidence to Russia's involvement. While this doesnt mean nothing will be found in the future... there is at the moment no evidence (clappers words). We have also known in some form that russian interference has been under investigation. I am unsure how the media interprets that announcement as any thing shocking or new

As to Trump having a relationship with Putin at all... thats plausible. But that man flip flops like a mad dance and does his own damage to himself with his own rhetoric.

Im just sitting here watching the media belly aching with paranoia and ratings pursuits over objective reporting while Trump embodies alot of the childish crap ive come to hate...

My how this society has fallen

Becoming?
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:28 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Becoming?
I'd say the whole thing is unbecoming.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:43 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How is that distinction relevant? It doesn't prove Trump's campaign staff weren't involved in the hacking affair. At a minimum it looks like they got information about the Podesta hack before it was released on Wikileaks (the citation is somewhere upthread about a Tweet that went out before Wikileaks posted the Podesta emails).

Why would Trump have to offer Putin something in order to be involved in Putin's attacks on Clinton?

It looks though (based on the current circumstantial evidence) that Putin may have expected more from Trump than he is getting: lifting of sanctions, softening position on Ukraine (remains to be seen) and at some point between Trump and Tillerson it looks like oil drilling in the Arctic is still a desired goal.

Trump turns out to be so incompetent, Putin may be having buyer's remorse.
The distinction is very relevant to how the relationship between Russia and the Trump administration might proceed after the election is over.

If the Russians goal was only to defeat Hillary Clinton, the mission was accomplished on Nov. 8 and any benefit they might expect beyond that is purely a bonus to them.

If they were aiding Trump because he is Trump, they would have done so with expectations that the Trump presidency would bring them something that is the goal of the operation in the first place.

Look at it this way. The question might be asked whether the Russians would have helped Trump regardless who his opponent was (would they have aided Trump against Bernie Sanders?). If the answer to this is "yes", it is reasonable to assume that they are expecting something from the Trump presidency.
If the answer is that they would not have helped Trump had his opponent not been Hillary Clinton, the reasonable assumptions change.


IOW. Was the Trump presidency a means to an end (the defeat of Hillary Clinton) for Russia?, or is it the end in itself. I think that distinction is important.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:47 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I'd say the whole thing is unbecoming.
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Old 21st March 2017, 05:27 PM   #138
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I previously thought it was unlikely, but the way the Trump spokespeople are retroactively minimizing the roles of Manafort and others under suspicion has convinced me that there probably was direct and knowing collusion. If that is true, I would guess that Trump himself was unaware, but is aware now.
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Old 21st March 2017, 06:05 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
Reading through the OP and the thread and looking at the media headlines... and looking at what has been said by Clapper and other intel heads.

This russia issue is becoming more of a conspiracy theory than anything else.
True, albeit a CT with a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Quote:
The media keeps claiming all of these Russia issues are bomb shells... uh... no.
Explain then why Trump flat out lied about his relationship with Putin. Why Trump flat out lied about his role in GOP platform concerning Ukraine. Why Manafort flat out lied about his/Trump role in GOP platform. Why Flynn flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Trump lied by omission about Flynn's contacts. Why Sessions flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Carter Page flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why various campaign officials lied about Page's relationship with the campaign. Why Roger Stone flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Trump is pretending that Manafort was minimally involved in the campaign.

In the world I live in, the reason people lie is to conceal the truth. Can you explain these lies?

And simultaneously, Trump tosses Ukraine under the bus, defies generations of policy concerning Russia, thumbs his nose at NATO, kisses Putin's ass at every opportunity, and openly encourages Russia to persist with their meddling.

This is not the entirety of the circumstantial evidence mind you.
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Old 21st March 2017, 06:19 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
The distinction is very relevant to how the relationship between Russia and the Trump administration might proceed after the election is over.

If the Russians goal was only to defeat Hillary Clinton, the mission was accomplished on Nov. 8 and any benefit they might expect beyond that is purely a bonus to them.

If they were aiding Trump because he is Trump, they would have done so with expectations that the Trump presidency would bring them something that is the goal of the operation in the first place.

Look at it this way. The question might be asked whether the Russians would have helped Trump regardless who his opponent was (would they have aided Trump against Bernie Sanders?). If the answer to this is "yes", it is reasonable to assume that they are expecting something from the Trump presidency.
If the answer is that they would not have helped Trump had his opponent not been Hillary Clinton, the reasonable assumptions change.


IOW. Was the Trump presidency a means to an end (the defeat of Hillary Clinton) for Russia?, or is it the end in itself. I think that distinction is important.
But the bottom line is, Trump is POTUS and that's a disaster. Whether or not Russia gets a direct quid pro quo is background noise at this point. We have a completely incompetent POTUS and a GOP led legislature that is fluctuating between taking advantage of their good luck and walking on eggshells around the nut in charge.
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Old 21st March 2017, 06:22 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
I previously thought it was unlikely, but the way the Trump spokespeople are retroactively minimizing the roles of Manafort and others under suspicion has convinced me that there probably was direct and knowing collusion. If that is true, I would guess that Trump himself was unaware, but is aware now.
I doubt Trump was unaware. Dealing with oligarchs and corrupt officials is clearly in his bailiwick.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:39 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
I previously thought it was unlikely, but the way the Trump spokespeople are retroactively minimizing the roles of Manafort and others under suspicion has convinced me that there probably was direct and knowing collusion. If that is true, I would guess that Trump himself was unaware, but is aware now.
If that is true, I would guess that Trump himself was directly involved, and perfectly aware of which lies needed to be told and when.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:40 PM   #143
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/20/w...rump.html?_r=0
Paul Manafort's name pops up again
Quote:
On Monday, the intrigue took another turn, when a member of Parliament in Ukraine released documents that he said showed that Mr. Manafort took steps to hide the payments, which were tied to Mr. Manafortís work for former President Viktor F. Yanukovych. The documents included an invoice that appeared to show $750,000 funneled through an offshore account and disguised as payment for computers.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:07 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
...

IOW. Was the Trump presidency a means to an end (the defeat of Hillary Clinton) for Russia?, or is it the end in itself. I think that distinction is important.
According to testimony we've already heard, yes, the goal was to drive a wedge between POTUS and NATO, either by ruining HC's relationship will allies, or picking up and running with the surprisingly useful lunacy of the GOP, to which I would add, the traitorous, eminently bribable GOP.

Sanctions are really hurting Russia's truly lousy and small economy. Putin wants them off, by hook or by crook. He got "crook," and is now laughing at his wild luck.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:56 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
True, albeit a CT with a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Explain then why Trump flat out lied about his relationship with Putin. Why Trump flat out lied about his role in GOP platform concerning Ukraine. Why Manafort flat out lied about his/Trump role in GOP platform. Why Flynn flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Trump lied by omission about Flynn's contacts. Why Sessions flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Carter Page flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why various campaign officials lied about Page's relationship with the campaign. Why Roger Stone flat out lied about his Russian contacts. Why Trump is pretending that Manafort was minimally involved in the campaign.

In the world I live in, the reason people lie is to conceal the truth. Can you explain these lies?

And simultaneously, Trump tosses Ukraine under the bus, defies generations of policy concerning Russia, thumbs his nose at NATO, kisses Putin's ass at every opportunity, and openly encourages Russia to persist with their meddling.

This is not the entirety of the circumstantial evidence mind you.
There was no lying, they were very busy people running - and so many people have told me this - the most successful campaign for President ever. Whether it's total (legal) votes cast, electoral college votes, share of the vote, approval rating or number of people at the inauguration, by any measure it's the most successful.

Anyway if you're busy running a successful campaign - a campaign that was so successful that the President is now heartily sick and tired of winning (as recent events have shown ) - then small details like these are apt to slip your mind.

This absolutely is not a case of the President and/or members of his team lying but rather a combination of #fakenews from a sick, failing, liberal media combined with honest lack of recall about some trivial and tiny details
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Old 22nd March 2017, 02:44 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Grizzly Bear View Post
This russia issue is becoming more of a conspiracy theory than anything else.
Really? You think that the Secretary of State, utterly unqualified, being a friend of Russia and doing pretty much zilch since inauguration, which neatly fits with Putin's problems with the State Dep. and Flynn's advice to the Russians that once Trump's in power there won't be sanctions for their actions, is just sheer coincidence?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 07:26 AM   #147
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*Blinks audibly*

Quote:
President Donald Trump's former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, secretly worked for a Russian billionaire to advance the interests of Russian President Vladimir Putin a decade ago and proposed an ambitious political strategy to undermine anti-Russian opposition across former Soviet republics, The Associated Press has learned. The work appears to contradict assertions by the Trump administration and Manafort himself that he never worked for Russian interests.

Manafort proposed in a confidential strategy plan as early as June 2005 that he would influence politics, business dealings and news coverage inside the United States, Europe and the former Soviet republics to benefit the Putin government, even as U.S.-Russia relations under Republican President George W. Bush grew worse. Manafort pitched the plans to Russian aluminum magnate Oleg Deripaska, a close Putin ally with whom Manafort eventually signed a $10 million annual contract beginning in 2006, according to interviews with several people familiar with payments to Manafort and business records obtained by the AP. Manafort and Deripaska maintained a business relationship until at least 2009, according to one person familiar with the work.

"We are now of the belief that this model can greatly benefit the Putin Government if employed at the correct levels with the appropriate commitment to success," Manafort wrote in the 2005 memo to Deripaska. The effort, Manafort wrote, "will be offering a great service that can re-focus, both internally and externally, the policies of the Putin government."
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Old 22nd March 2017, 08:58 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
More total coincidence, I'm sure.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 09:00 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
More total coincidence, I'm sure.
Take it from Newt, "Nobody should underestimate how much Paul Manafort did to get this campaign to where it is right now."
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Old 22nd March 2017, 09:26 AM   #150
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Wow, The Don, I was about to respond to your post before I realized it was satire. It's hard to tell sometimes in these days of the Poe Administration and its fervent supporters.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:11 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Hold it right there! Sean Spicer says he had a "limited role"
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/20/politi...e-sean-spicer/
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:19 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Hold it right there! Sean Spicer says he had a "limited role"
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/20/politi...e-sean-spicer/
Just like they're not connected to Russian oligarchs.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:26 AM   #153
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The Dem's Benghazi!!!!!!!
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:28 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The Dem's Benghazi!!!!!!!
Do you ever post anything constructive?

Can you really say that there isn't some pretty worrying facts on this one?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:31 AM   #155
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Rep @DevinNunes revealing at a news conference that additional Trump officials were caught in NSA/FBI surveillance during the transition.
Man, team Trump just couldn't stop talking to people under FBI surveillance. How many more people in the administration are they going to have to admit had contact with Russian agents.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:37 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Rep @DevinNunes revealing at a news conference that additional Trump officials were caught in NSA/FBI surveillance during the transition.
Man, team Trump just couldn't stop talking to people under FBI surveillance. How many more people in the administration are they going to have to admit had contact with Russian agents.
Nunes is an idiot. After revealing this, he stated he was going to inform the White House. There is an ongoing criminal investigation and he should not be briefing its subjects.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:06 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
The Dem's Benghazi!!!!!!!
Vladimir, you seem to have willing converts buying into your fog machine franchise.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:18 PM   #158
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Uh...
Wow - Nunes just said there are "multiple FISA warrants out there" involving Trump.
Nunes says he's going to meet Schiff to talk about this soon. Waiting to talk to Comey he says. Obviously you hold a press conference before meeting with relevant officials. WTF is he thinking?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:29 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Uh...
Wow - Nunes just said there are "multiple FISA warrants out there" involving Trump.
Nunes says he's going to meet Schiff to talk about this soon. Waiting to talk to Comey he says. Obviously you hold a press conference before meeting with relevant officials. WTF is he thinking?
mention of specific FISA targets is classified TOPSECRET/SCI/ECI (Exceptionally Controlled Information)
If we are still a republic of laws, Nunes must be removed from HPSCI, stripped of clearances & prosecuted for this.
All this so Donald can falsely claim he was vindicated for lying about Obama?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 12:51 PM   #160
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I was talking to my wife about some this. I wonder if the Republicans would ever consider impeaching Trump if enough Russian connections are proven. I assume yes but I am wondering how much proof would be needed before enough would support a impeachment proceeding. Right now we have heard about various circumstantial proof and serious problems with individuals connected with the campaign but it seems there has not been enough presented to decide anything further.

This of course is a hypothetical at this point.
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