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Tags donald trump , Jeff Sessions , obstruction of justice , Robert Mueller , Rod Rosenstein , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 18th May 2017, 05:33 AM   #81
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Hopefully, the appointment of Robert Mueller as Special Counsel will bring a least a temporary halt to the Trump 2020 election campaign.
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Old 18th May 2017, 05:42 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Hopefully, the appointment of Robert Mueller as Special Counsel will bring a least a temporary halt to the Trump 2020 election campaign.
Not in the least. It's a proven profit center for Trump and his core supporters are not going to be shaken by anything as trivial as an investigation. Even if he has no real plans of running again he can't resist the fact that he can raise money doing it.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:17 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't see how Pence can get out of this unscathed: Flynn is going to throw him under the bus in return for some leniency.
There seems to be a lot of evidence that Pence knew full well that Flynn was under investigation when he hired him, but he lied about it - not really keeping up his part of the Oath of Office either.
I don't buy this. Pence is a latecomer to the party. He's the VP. The very definition of Mr. Irrelevant in most administrations. He doesn't seem to ever been part of the inner circle.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:21 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Lol
Not only that, the establishment loves him. Either way your side is still screwed.
See you in 2018.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:23 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It should fall to the Deputy AG but, since the recusal was voluntary, Sessions is still legally clear to do what he will.
You think he would do something that likely to end in obstruction of justice charges for him?
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:23 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
If Pence becomes president because of this, he will probably be essentially a lame duck. He won't get much done, and it isn't even guaranteed he would be the nominee in 2020.
You can't say that. I think that's more of a maybe. Or you hope. IF Trump was Impeached this year Pence would have been President for 3 years. That's plenty of time for people to get used to the idea and develop his own support.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:25 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I figured it was a matter of time before Trump came head to head with a coalition of law-and-order types who eat, drink, and breathe notions of justice and who's sphincters tighten at every whiff of impropriety in a public office.
But there aren't any of those in any kind of position to do anything. This is republican representatives we are talking about.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:25 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You think he would do something that likely to end in obstruction of justice charges for him?
Who is going to charge him?
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:33 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't see how Pence can get out of this unscathed: Flynn is going to throw him under the bus in return for some leniency.
There seems to be a lot of evidence that Pence knew full well that Flynn was under investigation when he hired him, but he lied about it - not really keeping up his part of the Oath of Office either.
I don't believe for a second that Pence didn't know. The transition team was made aware of it (by Yates?) so he definitely knew.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:43 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Maybe it's really good for Trump. A man of sterling reputation will lead the investigation. When no evidence of wrongdoing is found, Trump can point to the investigation as proof of the value of his good name.


Of course, that's just one possibility for the future. Other possibilities don't end as well for Trump.
Your first point is true and something the anti-Trump crowd (and I am part of it) needs to be prepared for. I have said to others who crowed about Mueller's appointment that they were conditioning their joy on the assumption that Mueller will find nasty stuff that brings about Trump's downfall, but it is entirely possible he will not. If that is the case, we must be willing to accept it as a vindication of Trump. Of course, that assumes an absence of shenanigans that bring the investigation itself into doubt, and that's a rabbit hole I do not want to go down.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:55 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't buy this. Pence is a latecomer to the party. He's the VP. The very definition of Mr. Irrelevant in most administrations. He doesn't seem to ever been part of the inner circle.
He headed up the transition. He was either in on everything or willing to be kept in the dark deliberately.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:58 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You can't say that. I think that's more of a maybe. Or you hope. IF Trump was Impeached this year Pence would have been President for 3 years. That's plenty of time for people to get used to the idea and develop his own support.
First off, Trump won't be impeached this year, if at all. We aren't at Congress calling for impeachment yet. The investigation part will be most of this year, if you include whatever hearings and various other dog-and-pony shows they put together. If it even gets to a discussion of impeachment it'll be timed, oh so coincidentally like the Gowdy commission, for just in time for the mid-terms.

The GOP got Nixon out before the mid-terms. Ford had 2+ years. How'd that turn out for him? And Gerry was a nice affable guy. Pence is that guy with a broomstick up his ass who won't give you back your ball when it goes over the fence into his yard.
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Old 18th May 2017, 06:59 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't believe for a second that Pence didn't know. The transition team was made aware of it (by Yates?) so he definitely knew.
Flynn let White House Counsel know on Jan 4 even while he continued to conceal it from the public. Dan McGahn is either incompetent or criminal if he didn't inform Pence immediately that a the leading candidate for NSA was a foreign agent.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:31 AM   #94
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Here's an interesting question: can Mueller go after Sessions for perjury? Sessions did lie to congress with regards to his conversations with Russian officials...
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:34 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Here's an interesting question: can Mueller go after Sessions for perjury? Sessions did lie to congress with regards to his conversations with Russian officials...
IANAL but it reads like he can. Getting Sessions out of being AG will prevent a lot more damage from being done to the country.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:38 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Here's an interesting question: can Mueller go after Sessions for perjury? Sessions did lie to congress with regards to his conversations with Russian officials...
If we start throwing politicians in prison for lying we might as well switch back to monarchy.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:39 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
First off, Trump won't be impeached this year, if at all. We aren't at Congress calling for impeachment yet. The investigation part will be most of this year, if you include whatever hearings and various other dog-and-pony shows they put together. If it even gets to a discussion of impeachment it'll be timed, oh so coincidentally like the Gowdy commission, for just in time for the mid-terms.

The GOP got Nixon out before the mid-terms. Ford had 2+ years. How'd that turn out for him? And Gerry was a nice affable guy. Pence is that guy with a broomstick up his ass who won't give you back your ball when it goes over the fence into his yard.
I agree we're a long way off. But as many similarities to Watergate that are obvious there are many differences. And the biggest difference is between Trump and Nixon. Trump ran as an outsider and is an outsider. He really doesn't have the allies that Nixon had. Nixon was the long time insider having served in Congress, been VP for 8 years and President for 4 years before anyone thought of Watergate as anything more than a collection of offices, apartments and a hotel. Also, a big delay was the battle over the tapes.

My supposition is that if it's obvious that this is going to get uglier and nastier and Trump is going to cause a lot of damage to the party, the GOP leaders will make a practical decision to move on as quickly as possible.

These are all big 'ifs'. But it wouldn't surprise me one bit that there may come a time that the Republicans will be pushing for Impeachment more than the Democrats.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:44 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If we start throwing politicians in prison for lying we might as well switch back to monarchy.
It's where and when he lied - during sworn testimony to congress. Politicians can lie to constituents all they want and only suffer at the ballot box for that.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:45 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
My supposition is that if it's obvious that if it becomes clear that this is going to get uglier and nastier and that Trump is going to cause a lot of damage to the party. The GOP leaders will make a practical decision to move on as quickly as possible.
...what? Ok, let me try to fix this.

My supposition is that if it becomes clear that this is going to get uglier and nastier and that Trump is going to cause a lot of damage to the party, the GOP leaders will make a practical decision to move on as quickly as possible.

Ah, that's better!
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:56 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
...what? Ok, let me try to fix this.

My supposition is that if it becomes clear that this is going to get uglier and nastier and that Trump is going to cause a lot of damage to the party, the GOP leaders will make a practical decision to move on as quickly as possible.

Ah, that's better!
Thanks. I rewrote it. Much better this time. I need an editor.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:57 AM   #101
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Does this allow him to do a forensic audit of the Trump Organization to answer, “What does the president owe and to whom does he owe it?”
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:58 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Thanks. I rewrote it. Much better this time. I need an editor.

I volunteer.
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Old 18th May 2017, 07:59 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I volunteer.
Thanks, the world needs people who step up.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:00 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You can't say that. I think that's more of a maybe. Or you hope. IF Trump was Impeached this year Pence would have been President for 3 years. That's plenty of time for people to get used to the idea and develop his own support.
Just curious: why do you spell Impeached with a capital I? I didn't know that verbs should/could be capitalized.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:14 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
Just curious: why do you spell Impeached with a capital I? I didn't know that verbs should/could be capitalized.
In all fairness to me. (See how I give myself a break? ) I'm on a tablet and the checker on this changes all kinds of things. It's wrong twice as often as me.

It shouldn't be. Only proper nouns to my knowledge.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:14 AM   #106
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Good post by the always succinct Atrios:

Quote:
I have no idea if Robert Mueller, SPECIAL COUNSEL, will do what needs to be done, but he will at least have to pretend to, and the way to pretend to is to go after the little people. Anyone working for Trump needs to hire a lawyer and get the **** out of there as soon as possible.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:24 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I agree we're a long way off. But as many similarities to Watergate that are obvious there are many differences. And the biggest difference is between Trump and Nixon. Trump ran as an outsider and is an outsider. He really doesn't have the allies that Nixon had. Nixon was the long time insider having served in Congress, been VP for 8 years and President for 4 years before anyone thought of Watergate as anything more than a collection of offices, apartments and a hotel. Also, a big delay was the battle over the tapes.

My supposition is that if it's obvious that this is going to get uglier and nastier and Trump is going to cause a lot of damage to the party, the GOP leaders will make a practical decision to move on as quickly as possible.

These are all big 'ifs'. But it wouldn't surprise me one bit that there may come a time that the Republicans will be pushing for Impeachment more than the Democrats.
I also agree. The Republicans in Congress have two goals (just as the Democrats):
  • Reelection
  • Passing the conservative legislative agenda.

If they are confident they can do all of this without Trump, they will turn on him. Trump only counts in how it affect their relection. However, we haven't reached that point. I can't help but think that many now see Trump as a liability for their reelection but not to the point where they can be openly attack or even strongly distance himself.

As far as the agenda, as long as Pence is in office and they retain control of Congress, they can move their agenda forward with or without Trump. Their bigger problem with the agenda is not Trump but internal party divisions.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:52 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Here's an interesting question: can Mueller go after Sessions for perjury? Sessions did lie to congress with regards to his conversations with Russian officials...
Sessions was associated with the Trump campaign and had links to Russians. So yes I think.
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Old 18th May 2017, 08:53 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
First off, Trump won't be impeached this year, if at all. We aren't at Congress calling for impeachment yet. The investigation part will be most of this year, if you include whatever hearings and various other dog-and-pony shows they put together. If it even gets to a discussion of impeachment it'll be timed, oh so coincidentally like the Gowdy commission, for just in time for the mid-terms.

The GOP got Nixon out before the mid-terms. Ford had 2+ years. How'd that turn out for him? And Gerry was a nice affable guy. Pence is that guy with a broomstick up his ass who won't give you back your ball when it goes over the fence into his yard.
There couldn't be any more normal person than Pence. As usual your side is ignoring some key points. This investigation takes the heat off Trump for now, it also will last beyond the mid terms. The reason why and final thing you're missing is this prosecutor can go anywhere, meaning all the things my side wanted investigated is going to be looked at.

Wouldn't it be juicy if this investigation about Trump turns into charges against over zealous Obama goons?
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:01 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Wouldn't it be juicy if this investigation about Trump turns into charges against over zealous Obama goons?
....and if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle

I understand why you hope that President Trump's evidence free ramblings have some basis in fact and why you hope that what seems to be damning evidence against his administration doesn't pan out. I suspect you will be disappointed but am reassured that if it does turn out that way, Trump's cheerleaders will insist that the investigation was rigged.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:03 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Hevneren View Post
Just curious: why do you spell Impeached with a capital I? I didn't know that verbs should/could be capitalized.
Get your own poster to be an editor for. The place's taken.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:04 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Wouldn't it be juicy if this investigation about Trump turns into charges against over zealous Obama goons?
It's be nice if faster-than-light travel were possible, too.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:09 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by seayakin View Post
I also agree. The Republicans in Congress have two goals (just as the Democrats):
  • Reelection
  • Passing the conservative legislative agenda.

If they are confident they can do all of this without Trump, they will turn on him. Trump only counts in how it affect their relection. However, we haven't reached that point. I can't help but think that many now see Trump as a liability for their reelection but not to the point where they can be openly attack or even strongly distance himself.

As far as the agenda, as long as Pence is in office and they retain control of Congress, they can move their agenda forward with or without Trump. Their bigger problem with the agenda is not Trump but internal party divisions.
Exactly! And in that order.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:18 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
There couldn't be any more normal person than Pence. As usual your side is ignoring some key points. This investigation takes the heat off Trump for now, it also will last beyond the mid terms. The reason why and final thing you're missing is this prosecutor can go anywhere, meaning all the things my side wanted investigated is going to be looked at.

Wouldn't it be juicy if this investigation about Trump turns into charges against over zealous Obama goons?
Even if you actually can whistle a happy tune while you walk alone past the grave yard on a dark night, then the whistling may not keep the ghosts away. In fact, the whistling may encourage the ghosts to pay you a decidedly unwanted visit.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:30 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
There couldn't be any more normal person than Pence. As usual your side is ignoring some key points. This investigation takes the heat off Trump for now, it also will last beyond the mid terms. The reason why and final thing you're missing is this prosecutor can go anywhere, meaning all the things my side wanted investigated is going to be looked at.

Wouldn't it be juicy if this investigation about Trump turns into charges against over zealous Obama goons?
That's good. Can you link to the Onion article you got this from?
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:32 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Not in the least. It's a proven profit center for Trump and his core supporters are not going to be shaken by anything as trivial as an investigation. Even if he has no real plans of running again he can't resist the fact that he can raise money doing it.
You may be quite correct.

I am sure that Trump would love to raise money via this scandal as way personal vindication.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:33 AM   #117
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One wonders what logger considers "normal".
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:36 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
There couldn't be any more normal person than Pence. As usual your side is ignoring some key points. This investigation takes the heat off Trump for now, it also will last beyond the mid terms. The reason why and final thing you're missing is this prosecutor can go anywhere, meaning all the things my side wanted investigated is going to be looked at.

Wouldn't it be juicy if this investigation about Trump turns into charges against over zealous Obama goons?
If you mean sexist homophobe, I would agree.

But that still makes him 100 times more normal than Trump.

As for the investigation taking the heat off Trump, we don't know that but I find it unlikely given the interactions between Trump and Comey as well as Trump's attempt to reverse 70 years of US policy towards Russia. Here's a guy who has barely even thought about politics other than how it might help his own personal agenda and all of a sudden, he's badmouthing our long term allies and dropping out of NATO.

There are just far too many clues pointing to Trump to ignore. You may believe in strange coincidences, but I'm skeptical.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:53 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
One wonders what logger considers "normal".
I would imagine politically and socially very conservative.....

If so, Mike Pence seems to fit the bill admirably.
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Old 18th May 2017, 09:54 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I would imagine politically and socially very conservative.....

If so, Mike Pence seems to fit the bill admirably.
Unlikely. Social and political conservatives can be decent people who care for others. I think logger's thinking of something far more extreme.
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