ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Graham Hancock , joe rogan , michael shermer , zahi hawass

Reply
Old 21st May 2017, 06:21 PM   #41
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Because, like us, he has interest enough to read the experts and give a counternarrative when the BS starts building up.

...
Except that he didn't...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 06:22 PM   #42
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by Shepherd View Post
I believe Graham Hancock was more mellow before he let the serpent Mother Ayahuasca enter into and slither around inside of his body and convince him to change his relationship with cannabis.

http://grahamhancock.com/giving-up-t...bitch-hancock/

ETA: Hey, I'm just reporting!
Funny.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 06:32 PM   #43
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,073
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
If Shermer isn't an 'expert' why is he the leading editor of Skeptic?
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Because, like us, he has interest enough to read the experts and give a counternarrative when the BS starts building up.
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Except that he didn't...
He did OK. Could have done better. But you wanted to know why he's the leading editor of Skeptic, not if he is some leading expert on Gobekli Tepe. Shermer very much understands the principles of good skepticism and he laid them out in the interview.

He also brought a couple experts with him to help.

Bottom line it: Did Hancock convince you? He sure didn't convince me.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 06:36 PM   #44
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,816
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Except that he didn't...
Did so.
__________________
Credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away, it's not coming back.
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 06:59 PM   #45
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Did so.
Musta been short, because I missed it.

I DID hear him say, 12,000 years ago, we were more than simple hunter gatherers...that Hancock was both well reasoned and researched.

But, feel free to enlighten us all. Name anything Shermer refuted?
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 07:01 PM   #46
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Ask your interlocutors for evidence of your claims, why don't you?

"That ain't working, that's the way you do it. You play the guitar on the MTV.

Money for nuthin. Chicks for free."
That request was for a citation of someone else's fact...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 07:06 PM   #47
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
He did OK. Could have done better. But you wanted to know why he's the leading editor of Skeptic, not if he is some leading expert on Gobekli Tepe. Shermer very much understands the principles of good skepticism and he laid them out in the interview.

He also brought a couple experts with him to help.

Bottom line it: Did Hancock convince you? He sure didn't convince me.
Yep, the first and last thing his 'expert' did was admit he was wrong and apologize to Hancock.

Since this was the first time I had heard of "Gobekli Tepe," I was convinced at least, that a lost unknown civilization existed 12,000 years ago, and that a series of floods eliminated it as the ice age ended.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 21st May 2017 at 07:36 PM.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 07:37 PM   #48
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,073
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Yep, the first and last thing his 'expert' did was admit he was wrong and apologize t Hancock.
Sounds like the response you'd expect from an honorable man, interested in getting things right.

Quote:
Since this was the first time I had heard of "Gobekli Tepe," I was convinced at least, that a lost unknown civilization existed 12,000 years ago, and that a series of floods eliminated it as the ice age ended.
Here's Shermer in Scientific American on the topic:
First, no matter how devastating an extraterrestrial impact might be, are we to believe that after centuries of flourishing every last tool, potsherd, article of clothing, and, presumably from an advanced civilization, writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash—was erased? Inconceivable. https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...000-years-ago/
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 07:45 PM   #49
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Sounds like the response you'd expect from an honorable man, interested in getting things right.



Here's Shermer in Scientific American on the topic:
First, no matter how devastating an extraterrestrial impact might be, are we to believe that after centuries of flourishing every last tool, potsherd, article of clothing, and, presumably from an advanced civilization, writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash—was erased? Inconceivable. https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...000-years-ago/
Rebuttal-

The floods resulting from the melting ice sheets gave rise to ocean levels while washing "writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash" out to sea...

A flood of over 120 feet covered Cairo, now there are NO TRACES of who built the sphinx. No "writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash"...

Try visiting Sri Lanka at the places not yet rebuilt from the tsunami- there's NOTHING left- ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH. Cars, three story buildings, roads, computers, tools...it's all just off the coast buried in mud banks.

The moral of this post is- "Water washes away evidence."

Last edited by King of the Americas; 21st May 2017 at 08:01 PM.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 08:11 PM   #50
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,073
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Rebuttal-

The floods resulting from the melting ice sheets gave rise to ocean levels while washing "writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash" out to sea...

A flood of over 120 feet covered Cairo, now there are NO TRACES of who built the sphinx. No "writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash"...

Try visiting Sri Lanka at the places not yet rebuilt from the tsunami- there's NOTHING left- ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH. Cars, three story buildings, roads, computers, tools...it's all just off the coast buried in mud banks.

The moral of this post is- "Water washes away evidence."
It goes somewhere.

Also, we were talking about stone structures that weren't washed away. It's hard to imagine standing structures that get scrubbed as clean as required, especially when archeologists are able to carbon date things they did find.

I don't see Hancock getting the evidence he needs from the evidence that's missing. Forget metal, even pottery would be nice.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 08:18 PM   #51
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,073
The timeline of Gobekli Tepe doesn't really fit a catastrophe model.

The National Geographic Magazine describes a gradual falling away of "tech" rather than an all-or-none.
"Puzzle piled upon puzzle as the excavation continued. For reasons yet unknown, the rings at Göbekli Tepe seem to have regularly lost their power, or at least their charm. Every few decades people buried the pillars and put up new stones—a second, smaller ring, inside the first. Sometimes, later, they installed a third. Then the whole assemblage would be filled in with debris, and an entirely new circle created nearby. The site may have been built, filled in, and built again for centuries.

Bewilderingly, the people at Göbekli Tepe got steadily worse at temple building. The earliest rings are the biggest and most sophisticated, technically and artistically. As time went by, the pillars became smaller, simpler, and were mounted with less and less care. Finally the effort seems to have petered out altogether by 8200 B.C. Göbekli Tepe was all fall and no rise."
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...tepe/mann-text
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 09:11 PM   #52
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,175
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Rebuttal-

The floods resulting from the melting ice sheets gave rise to ocean levels while washing "writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash" out to sea...

A flood of over 120 feet covered Cairo, now there are NO TRACES of who built the sphinx. No "writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash"...

Try visiting Sri Lanka at the places not yet rebuilt from the tsunami- there's NOTHING left- ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH. Cars, three story buildings, roads, computers, tools...it's all just off the coast buried in mud banks.

The moral of this post is- "Water washes away evidence."
Rebuttal -

1. you are speculating: "there's no evidence because it all got washed away completely" versus "there's no evidence because it didn't happen".

2. The last ice age *ended* 10k years ago: what change in sea level are you claiming occurred during the period at which the article places the destruction that is asserted to have at the site speculated to be Atlantis?
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 10:20 PM   #53
GT/CS
Illuminator
 
GT/CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Inland NW
Posts: 4,766
No one lived in the mountains?
__________________
Normal in a weird way.
GT/CS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2017, 11:34 PM   #54
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 21,701
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Sounds like the response you'd expect from an honorable man, interested in getting things right.



Here's Shermer in Scientific American on the topic:
First, no matter how devastating an extraterrestrial impact might be, are we to believe that after centuries of flourishing every last tool, potsherd, article of clothing, and, presumably from an advanced civilization, writing, metallurgy and other technologies—not to mention trash—was erased? Inconceivable. https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...000-years-ago/
"Inconceivable"? Really? The best Shermer can muster is an appeal to incredulity?

Boop to that.

And boop to every self-styled "skeptic" everywhere who refuses to repudiate Shermer's blatant douchebaggery here.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 02:42 AM   #55
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,700
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Inconceivable"? Really? The best Shermer can muster is an appeal to incredulity?

Boop to that.

And boop to every self-styled "skeptic" everywhere who refuses to repudiate Shermer's blatant douchebaggery here.
That is an appeal to reason and experience, not to incredulity. Or put it another way: we are obliged to be incredulous at the suggestion that every artefact of an advanced society would be totally obliterated by a flood.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 03:39 AM   #56
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by GT/CS View Post
No one lived in the mountains?
Individuals and small groups maybe. Mountains seldom supply the land area needed to support large populations...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 03:40 AM   #57
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
It goes somewhere.

Also, we were talking about stone structures that weren't washed away. It's hard to imagine standing structures that get scrubbed as clean as required, especially when archeologists are able to carbon date things they did find.

I don't see Hancock getting the evidence he needs from the evidence that's missing. Forget metal, even pottery would be nice.
Again, the evidence you seek is sealed in mud bank off the coast under water.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 03:59 AM   #58
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The timeline of Gobekli Tepe doesn't really fit a catastrophe model.

The National Geographic Magazine describes a gradual falling away of "tech" rather than an all-or-none.
"Puzzle piled upon puzzle as the excavation continued. For reasons yet unknown, the rings at Göbekli Tepe seem to have regularly lost their power, or at least their charm. Every few decades people buried the pillars and put up new stones—a second, smaller ring, inside the first. Sometimes, later, they installed a third. Then the whole assemblage would be filled in with debris, and an entirely new circle created nearby. The site may have been built, filled in, and built again for centuries.

Bewilderingly, the people at Göbekli Tepe got steadily worse at temple building. The earliest rings are the biggest and most sophisticated, technically and artistically. As time went by, the pillars became smaller, simpler, and were mounted with less and less care. Finally the effort seems to have petered out altogether by 8200 B.C. Göbekli Tepe was all fall and no rise."
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...tepe/mann-text
Sounds like Fingerprints of the Gods evidence...

I'm not saying it is, but the technology, seemingly advanced, "pops up out of nowhere" and then is lost. Weird, to say the least.

---

ETA: Impact also lends itself to agricultural collapse and descending time spent on 'the arts'...as more and more crops failed they had to spend more time hunting and gathering?

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd May 2017 at 05:45 AM. Reason: ETA STUFF
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 04:33 AM   #59
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,887
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Again, the evidence you seek is sealed in mud bank off the coast under water.
Weird that Hancock et al. were able to draw far-reaching conclusions about completely lost civilisations without any evidence. The assertion that the survivors of these advanced cities abandoned every shred of their culture and technology and became stone age hunter-gatherers out of penance is also weird, and seems to be too convenient an explanation to explain the lack of physical evidence.

But what you have just posted is, well, let's say interesting.
Find these mud banks, rediscover the remnants of these ancient city dwellers, and presto: evidence.
Why would anyone just accept Hancock's outlandish speculation before he has produced any evidence?
And where is this mud bank? Any ideas?
Or are you going to be very vague, so you can always claim 'maybe the next mud bank over, I'm going to insist I'm correct until every inch of the Eurasian coastline has been dug up'?
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 04:47 AM   #60
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Weird that Hancock et al. were able to draw far-reaching conclusions about completely lost civilisations without any evidence. The assertion that the survivors of these advanced cities abandoned every shred of their culture and technology and became stone age hunter-gatherers out of penance is also weird, and seems to be too convenient an explanation to explain the lack of physical evidence.

But what you have just posted is, well, let's say interesting.
Find these mud banks, rediscover the remnants of these ancient city dwellers, and presto: evidence.
Why would anyone just accept Hancock's outlandish speculation before he has produced any evidence?
And where is this mud bank? Any ideas?
Or are you going to be very vague, so you can always claim 'maybe the next mud bank over, I'm going to insist I'm correct until every inch of the Eurasian coastline has been dug up'?
Try getting a permit to do underwater excavation that requires drilling bore holes and removing large scapes of ocean floor, within another nation's territorial waters...

You might as well as me to procure moon rocks.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:01 AM   #61
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,887
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Try getting a permit to do underwater excavation that requires drilling bore holes and removing large scapes of ocean floor, within another nation's territorial waters...

You might as well as me to procure moon rocks.
"There's is evidence, but it's no use trying to find it, so just take my word for it"
Right...
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:05 AM   #62
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,175
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Try getting a permit to do underwater excavation that requires drilling bore holes and removing large scapes of ocean floor, within another nation's territorial waters...

You might as well as me to procure moon rocks.
And thus mudbanks merely need to exist to prove the hypothesis, according to the train of logic unwound so far...
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:08 AM   #63
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
"There's is evidence, but it's no use trying to find it, so just take my word for it"
Right...
You asked where it was...

I can present tsunami evidence as proof, that if it exists, that's where you'd find it.

In the interview, Shermer accepts Hancock supposition that Cairo suffered a flood that covered the Nile basin in 120 feet of water...I think he said around 10,000 bc. Whatever evidence of who and when the sphinx was built is likely at the bottom of the Mediterranean.

'I' don't have access to it but that doesn't it isn't there...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:11 AM   #64
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
And thus mudbanks merely need to exist to prove the hypothesis, according to the train of logic unwound so far...
See my post above...
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:14 AM   #65
Porpoise of Life
Master Poster
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 2,887
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
You asked where it was...

I can present tsunami evidence as proof, that if it exists, that's where you'd find it.

In the interview, Shermer accepts Hancock supposition that Cairo suffered a flood that covered the Nile basin in 120 feet of water...I think he said around 10,000 bc. Whatever evidence of who and when the sphinx was built is likely at the bottom of the Mediterranean.

'I' don't have access to it but that doesn't it isn't there...
One of these is not like the other. Getting someone with no kind of training in the relevant disciplines to accept a supposition, is no proof of tsunamis occurring, much less of them sweeping away whole civilisations.
Also, your whole argument is contingent on your own supposition that "
"if it exists, that's where you'd find it"
Just like if Nessie exists, you'd find her in Scotland.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:35 AM   #66
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
One of these is not like the other. Getting someone with no kind of training in the relevant disciplines to accept a supposition, is no proof of tsunamis occurring, much less of them sweeping away whole civilisations.
Also, your whole argument is contingent on your own supposition that "
"if it exists, that's where you'd find it"
Just like if Nessie exists, you'd find her in Scotland.
Yes, "if it exists"... We KNOW tsunamis wash entire cities out to sea. However, I DON'T know that floods are responsible for the removal of the civilization responsible for the removal of knowledge.

Could have been aliens...they came, enslaved us, forced us to build these massive structures, and then left because of a slave uprising?

That's not what I am supporting.

Instead, I think its likely an asteroid impact (proof provided in the interview) dramatically changed the climate and set mankind back technologically to the point of hunter gatherer reversion.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd May 2017 at 05:42 AM.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:49 AM   #67
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,175
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Yes, "if it exists"... We KNOW tsunamis wash entire cities out to sea. However, I DON'T know that floods are responsible for the removal of the civilization responsible for the removal of knowledge.

Could have been aliens...they came, enslaved us, forced us to build these massive structures, and then left because of a slave uprising?

That's not what I am supporting.

Instead, I think its likely an asteroid impact (proof provided in the interview) dramatically changed the climate and set mankind back technologically to the point of hunter gatherer reversion.
Like the interview, you are conflating claims:

1. there was a prehistoric advanced civilisation
2. An asteroid struck earth during the time claimed
3. all evidence of the previously advanced civilisation was removed by the effect of the asteriod impact

I'm glad you "think it likely" but the substantiation is somewhat absent.
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 06:47 AM   #68
TraneWreck
Philosopher
 
TraneWreck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,929
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Like the interview, you are conflating claims:

1. there was a prehistoric advanced civilisation
2. An asteroid struck earth during the time claimed
3. all evidence of the previously advanced civilisation was removed by the effect of the asteriod impact

I'm glad you "think it likely" but the substantiation is somewhat absent.
Yes.

And what's really sad is that a lot of the good archaeological work is showing that prehistoric civilizations were more advanced than the grunting cave-dwellers people imagined. They built tools and musical instruments and respected their fallen brethren. Almost from the beginning we organized ourselves and interacted with other groups and loved art and developed intricate languages....

What really turned me off the "aliens must have been here" people was the realization (in middle school) that believing early humans required some space intervention to build the pyramids or develop complicated religions is highly disrespectful bordering on racist, when it's applied to African and Central American cultures.

We had some really awesome ancestors. They were more advanced we previously thought. Doesn't mean space aliens were involved in Nazca.

And that was Hancock's angle for a long time. Then he tossed that aside and ran with ideas like Antarctica moving hundreds of miles in a big earthquake and all of these impossible cataclysms.

Last edited by TraneWreck; 22nd May 2017 at 06:50 AM.
TraneWreck is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 11:10 AM   #69
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,073
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Sounds like Fingerprints of the Gods evidence...

I'm not saying it is, but the technology, seemingly advanced, "pops up out of nowhere" and then is lost. Weird, to say the least.
The part you put in scare quotes is significant. If we didn't have a written explanation, 3,000 years from now they might be saying that about steam, or nuclear power (depending on whether we abandon it or not) and the "out of nowhere" assumes technology that didn't exist before and suddenly appeared - is that the case? Moving large stones doesn't strike me as anything super special. I don't even think you could say it was "lost" - we quit doing it, sure, but that just means the reason for doing it fell out of favor - anyone building stone pyramids today?

On the time scale we are talking about, electricity and all of its boons have appeared "out of nowhere."

---

Quote:
ETA: Impact also lends itself to agricultural collapse and descending time spent on 'the arts'...as more and more crops failed they had to spend more time hunting and gathering?
Local disaster appeals to me more than global. War, famine, disease - civilizations, even great civilizations, do fail. Dark ages happen. Sometimes all you need is barbarians swooping down from the hills or a pile of "don't care" from the locals.

Last edited by marplots; 22nd May 2017 at 11:12 AM.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 11:32 AM   #70
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 20,700
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Local disaster appeals to me more than global. War, famine, disease - civilizations, even great civilizations, do fail. Dark ages happen. Sometimes all you need is barbarians swooping down from the hills or a pile of "don't care" from the locals.
That might cause the collapse of a civilisation, as it did in the case of the Roman Empire. But did it obliterate all evidence for the Empire that had existed previous to the Dark Age? Go and look at Herculaneum, or get hold of a coin or some other product from the Roman Republic or Empire. They are still to be found in huge numbers.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 12:01 PM   #71
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,008
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That might cause the collapse of a civilisation, as it did in the case of the Roman Empire. But did it obliterate all evidence for the Empire that had existed previous to the Dark Age? Go and look at Herculaneum, or get hold of a coin or some other product from the Roman Republic or Empire. They are still to be found in huge numbers.
Until Napoleon, basically the Roman road system still functioned throughout the former empire.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 12:48 PM   #72
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,073
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That might cause the collapse of a civilisation, as it did in the case of the Roman Empire. But did it obliterate all evidence for the Empire that had existed previous to the Dark Age? Go and look at Herculaneum, or get hold of a coin or some other product from the Roman Republic or Empire. They are still to be found in huge numbers.
That's the point though. We'd expect to find such evidence but don't. Whatever happened there it hasn't been revealed in the 5% excavated so far. Really, it could be as simple as "they moved to where the fishing was better" coupled with "Why are we wasting so much time building stuff to honor Gods which have let us down?"

12,000 years was a long time ago.

In my opinion, monoliths alone do not an advanced civilization make.

Last edited by marplots; 22nd May 2017 at 12:50 PM.
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 04:13 PM   #73
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
...

In my opinion, monoliths alone do not an advanced civilization make.
Lift a 40 ton block of stone onto another without the wheel... Or do we get to suppose 12,000 years ago they must have had both the wheel and axil to perform such tasks?
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 04:18 PM   #74
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Like the interview, you are conflating claims:

1. there was a prehistoric advanced civilisation
2. An asteroid struck earth during the time claimed
3. all evidence of the previously advanced civilisation was removed by the effect of the asteriod impact

I'm glad you "think it likely" but the substantiation is somewhat absent.
1. Ahh, so 12,000 years ago there actually was an agriculturally supported city that constructed THE most impressive monolith structure on the planet to date. *You are wrong.

2. Watch the interview, evidence for asteroid impacts are evidence in sedimentary layers dating to the time period in question... "microspherials" I think. *Wrong there too.

3. Sorta... The asteroid impact caused flooding. This is what wiped away the previous civilization. *Wrong again, sorry.

Last edited by King of the Americas; 22nd May 2017 at 04:21 PM.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:19 PM   #75
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 29,073
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Lift a 40 ton block of stone onto another without the wheel... Or do we get to suppose 12,000 years ago they must have had both the wheel and axil to perform such tasks?
I don't know how they did it.

Have you seen this guy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5pZ7uR6v8c
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 05:50 PM   #76
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,008
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
Lift a 40 ton block of stone onto another without the wheel... Or do we get to suppose 12,000 years ago they must have had both the wheel and axil to perform such tasks?
A wheel? An axle? For lifting a block of stone?
What about a block and tackle?
Or what about a lever? As Archimedes said: "Give me a place to stand, and I shall move the Earth with it".

In fact, Wally Wallington built a Stonehenge replica on his own without any of that:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


ETA: damn, ninja'ed by marplots.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

Last edited by ddt; 22nd May 2017 at 05:52 PM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 06:00 PM   #77
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I don't know how they did it.

Have you seen this guy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5pZ7uR6v8c
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Probably. I think we are ignoring each others links though, right?
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 06:02 PM   #78
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
A wheel? An axle? For lifting a block of stone?
What about a block and tackle?
Or what about a lever? As Archimedes said: "Give me a place to stand, and I shall move the Earth with it".

In fact, Wally Wallington built a Stonehenge replica on his own without any of that:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


ETA: damn, ninja'ed by marplots.
I wanna play my Coral Castle card, but I don't know how.
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 07:37 PM   #79
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,175
Originally Posted by King of the Americas View Post
1. Ahh, so 12,000 years ago there actually was an agriculturally supported city that constructed THE most impressive monolith structure on the planet to date. *You are wrong.

2. Watch the interview, evidence for asteroid impacts are evidence in sedimentary layers dating to the time period in question... "microspherials" I think. *Wrong there too.

3. Sorta... The asteroid impact caused flooding. This is what wiped away the previous civilization. *Wrong again, sorry.
You so funny. You know full well that all 3 criteria need to be met for your claim to have a chance of being credible

Saying "wrong" doesn't make it wrong, and your assertion in statements numbers 1 and 3 remain unsubstantiated. And don't think I haven't noted your weasel-wording rephrasing of your claim on point 1 either...
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd May 2017, 07:45 PM   #80
King of the Americas
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,725
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
You so funny. You know full well that all 3 criteria need to be met for your claim to have a chance of being credible

Saying "wrong" doesn't make it wrong, and your assertion in statements numbers 1 and 3 remain unsubstantiated. And don't think I haven't noted your weasel-wording rephrasing of your claim on point 1 either...
I know I make the jokes.

You didn't listen to the interview, right?

Weasel-wording? I am a prospective law student, I yam what I yam.

*Personally I thought that Coral Castle card post deserves nomination...FTR
King of the Americas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:51 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.