Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

[MRC_Hans]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Greetings JREF'ers,

Truly it has been too long...

I hope all of you are well.

The thing that brings me back, is that I'd like feedback on a particular "woo-subject" I was introduced to last week.

So...along the Spanish coast are remnants of 'half' of Atlantis...

http://atlantipedia.ie/samples/tag/h...-satisfaction/

There are some who postulate that the Menorah was misconstrued as a candle stick, rather than a symbol of the lost city, with half its concentric circles missing.

I've always found Atlantis to be the unfound Troy- a mythical city lost to our knowledge, trapped behind indecipherable passages, waiting to be found by someone willing to look where others have not...

Thoughts?

That link is to a very long and rather assuming text. And it does not seem to pertain to the Spanish coast.

Please explain what it is you want to discuss, and what the arguments on your side (or the side you want to discuss) are?

Hans

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser

Why?
I have had education in classical languages and actually have read some plato in greek and enough of it in my own language to form my own opinion.

IF, and that is a very big if, atlantis contrary to all current known information turns out to be real I'm sure I will hear of it trough a different channel than trough some random link, especially one where the one linking it won't explain what parts of it are compelling to him.

I know this forum is actually virus free, some random link, not so much.

Pfft...

So, you've never heard of James Cameron? He's responsible for "Avatar," the movie.

He's created a film about the connection between Atlantis and the Spanish coast.

[GT/CS]

Another interesting theory is that the mythical city of Atlantis is based on the destruction of some city off the coast of India, in the Arabian Sea.
Some other folks claim it's in South America.
It all just goes to show that many places can be forced to fit the 'facts' from a story told over a thousand years ago when water levels were different, and language was different, and names of places were different.......

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

That link is to a very long and rather assuming text. And it does not seem to pertain to the Spanish coast.

Please explain what it is you want to discuss, and what the arguments on your side (or the side you want to discuss) are?

Hans

Yeah, wrong link, sorry. I can't edit it anymore.

Atlantis, may have been found along the Spanish coast. Symbols of a sideways menorah have been found within these ruins.

It appears to, at least James Cameron, that the symbol for the destroyed Atlantis (concentric circles cut in half) was misconstrued by Jewish ancestors as a candle lobra.

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Pfft...

So, you've never heard of James Cameron? He's responsible for "Avatar," the movie.

He's created a film about the connection between Atlantis and the Spanish coast.

Using those two sentences it's obvious you're just playing games.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by GT/CS

Another interesting theory is that the mythical city of Atlantis is based on the destruction of some city off the coast of India, in the Arabian Sea.
Some other folks claim it's in South America.
It all just goes to show that many places can be forced to fit the 'facts' from a story told over a thousand years ago when water levels were different, and language was different, and names of places were different.......

'Facts' like concentric circular ruins, right beside the ocean? Corresponding cave paintings and symbols?

Rather than have nothing of value to add, maybe look into this site, and see if it is a better or more likely location than others to be the actual Atlantis?

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by GT/CS

Using those two sentences it's obvious you're just playing games.

Nope.

[fromdownunder]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Pfft...

So, you've never heard of James Cameron? He's responsible for "Avatar," the movie.

He's created a film about the connection between Atlantis and the Spanish coast.

And Pandora exists in the same reality as Atlantis, as do the Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and Jack Dawson.

Norm

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

And Pandora exists in the same reality as Atlantis, as do the Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and Jack Dawson.

Norm

That's funny.

"You've directed fiction, so you are no longer qualified to make documentaries."

*Seriously, that's NOT an argument against the findings presented here.

[Beelzebuddy]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

You've never heard of Atlantis...really?

And you post here regularly...?

I guess that's sarcasm I'm detecting?

My conception of Atlantis wouldn't lead me to credulously accept any ol' red dot on a map. Yours does. So the first question is what, exactly, does Atlantis mean to you?

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

That's funny.

"You've directed fiction, so you are no longer qualified to make documentaries."

*Seriously, that's NOT an argument against the findings presented here.

Wow, that amount of straw is a big fire hazard. No one even came close to saying that.

Here's a hint: making a documentary about a subject is not a de facto endorsement of the subject or the inherent claims.

People make documentaries about various religions, that doesn't make Odin or Anansi any more real.

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

'Facts' like concentric circular ruins, right beside the ocean? Corresponding cave paintings and symbols?

Rather than have nothing of value to add, maybe look into this site, and see if it is a better or more likely location than others to be the actual Atlantis?

You owe me a new irony meter.

What convinces you that there was a real Atlantis off the coast of Spain?

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

My conception of Atlantis wouldn't lead me to credulously accept any ol' red dot on a map. Yours does. So the first question is what, exactly, does Atlantis mean to you?

You know nothing of my conceptions, sir.

I 'believe' that the story of Atlantis contains truth. Like Homer's Troy, it will be, or has been found, because researchers were able to decipher Plato's writings to arrive at the site likely responsible for the myth.

What does it mean?

"Build further inland?"

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry

Wow, that amount of straw is a big fire hazard. No one even came close to saying that.

Here's a hint: making a documentary about a subject is not a de facto endorsement of the subject or the inherent claims.

People make documentaries about various religions, that doesn't make Odin or Anansi any more real.

So, you are backpedaling for another poster, while having nothing to say about the actual findings made by Cameron?

That's exactly what the poster implied by his post. No straw man there.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by GT/CS

You owe me a new irony meter.

What convinces you that there was a real Atlantis off the coast of Spain?

Location

&

Type of Ruins

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Location

&

Type of Ruins

Be specific. I don't think you really know what you're talking about.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by GT/CS

Be specific. I don't think you really know what you're talking about.

Enjoy-

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/atlantis-rising/

[GT/CS]

I watched it a couple weeks ago and found it to be extremely weak. What about it do you find compelling?

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by GT/CS

I watched it a couple weeks ago and found it to be extremely weak. What about it do you find compelling?

Location, types of ruins, and petroglifos.

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Location, types of ruins, and petroglifos.

So you're playing games and you got nothing.

[King of the Americas]

Could you elaborate on the term "extremely weak"...?

That seems more like ad hominem than an argument.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Could you elaborate on the term "extremely weak"...?

That seems more like ad hominem than an argument.

Not an ad-hom, because it refers to the argument put forth, not the arguer.

Anyhow, this link explains the weakness:
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/na...ntean-theology

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

Not an ad-hom, because it refers to the argument put forth, not the arguer.

Anyhow, this link explains the weakness:
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/na...ntean-theology

Already posted that.

Edited by jsfisher:

<snip> Edited for compliance with the Membership Agreement.

[Kid Eager]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Already posted that.

Edited by jsfisher:

<snip> Moderated content redacted.

Adults learn through repetition: second time might have been the charm...

[GT/CS]

It's too bad he doesn't know anything about the subject; I'd love to discuss various Atlantis sites. I don't believe in Atlantis but I do think Plato based his description at least partially on a real place.

Edited by zooterkin:

<SNIP> Edited for rule 0 and rule 12

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Kid Eager

Adults learn through repetition: second time might have been the charm...

My inner John McEnroe says otherwise.

[GT/CS]

KotA,
Here are a few conditions Atlantis sites must meet according to the author of this article. http://www.asalas.org/papers/Huebner...dence_full.pdf
I haven't read Plato's story so I don't yet know enough to agree or disagree with Michael Hubner. I do think Hubner takes a few artistic liberties, though.

• Global Constraint → Atlantis should be located within a reasonable range from Athens.
• Global Constraint → Atlantis should be located close to a sea or ocean.
• Global Constraint → Atlantis should be located close to a sea/ocean, which is large in relation to the Mediterranean and connected by a strait with the Mediterranean.
• Global Constraint → Atlantis should be located west of Tyrrhenia and Egypt.
• Global Constraint → Atlantis should be located where elephants lived.
• Global Constraint → Atlantis' main plain should be located close to and south of high mountains.
• Global Constraint → Atlantis should not be located in ancient Europe or Asia.
• Global Constraint → Atlantis should be located where elephants lived.
  
• Regional Constraint → Atlantis should be located beyond the "Pillars of Heracles" at the "Atlantic" (Ocean).
• Regional Constraint → Atlantis should be an island.
• Regional Constraint → The main plain of Atlantis should be encircled by mountains.
• Regional Constraint → There should be red, white, and black bedrock.
• Regional Constraint → There should be docks cut into the native red, white and black bedrock.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been buildings made from coloured stones.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been "weaving" stone laying patterns.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been northerly winds.
• Regional Constraint → There should be shelter from northerly winds.
• Regional Constraint → There should be varied ore/metal deposits.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been earthquakes and hot and cold springs
• Regional Constraint → There should have been horses.
• Regional Constraint → There should streams from the mountains
• Regional Constraint → There should be a trench parallel to the shore.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been plants with fragrant roots.
• Regional Constraint → There should be enough space and food for a large population.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been a water supply providing year-round irrigation.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been architecture which is integrated into the native rock of the coast.
• Regional Constraint → There should have been diverse agricultural products.
• Regional Constraint → The Atlanteans had blue clothes.
• Regional Constraint → The Atlanteans sacrificed bulls.
• Regional Constraint → Concentric circles may have had a religious/ magic connotation for the Atlanteans.
• Regional Constraint → Odd/even numbers may have had a religious/ magic connotation for the Atlanteans.
• Regional Constraint → There should be remains of large trenches.
  
• Local Constraint → The capital city of Atlantis should be located at a distance of about 50 stades from the sea.
• Local Constraint → The central hill of the capital of Atlantis should be low and/or gently inclined on all sides.
• Local Constraint → The capital of Atlantis should be located in an annular structure.
• Local Constraint → There should be three concentric rings of water and two of land (islands).
• Local Constraint → The whole structure should have an outer diameter of about: 2x (2x3 + 2x2 + 1x1) + 1x5 = 27 stades.
• Local Constraint → The central island (hill) should have a diameter of 5 stades.
• Local Constraint → The outer ring is located 50 stades from the sea.
• Local Constraint → There should have been a cold and a warm spring within the central structure.
• Local Constraint → There should be traces of prehistoric settlement.
• Local Constraint → Traces of buildings of coloured stones (particularly red, white, and black).

How many of these conditions apply to the Spain mudflats, and how many apply to Thera/Santorini?

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Already posted that.

Edited by jsfisher:

<snip> Moderated content redacted.

Sorry I missed it...

Lemme check it out.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Already posted that.

Edited by jsfisher:

<snip> Moderated content redacted.

In the first paragraph- ".. filmmakers’ own ego-trips...," "...they portray a cast of lunatics, obsessives, and frauds are actually respected and careful scholars..."

Not the best foot to start out on as an honest review.

---

I digress... "...Of course, Atlantis isn’t historical any more than The Walking Dead..." & "...By the time they are done, there is less connection between Plato’s Atlantis and the imagined original than between The Walking Dead and the nineteenth century Caribbean zombi that in a roundabout way inspired it..."

He was correct here- "The second hour of the documentary returns to Freund’s efforts around Gibraltar for some expensive underwater photography, and it pairs this effort with Montexano’s efforts to interpret petroglyphs of boats, spirals, and circles into evidence of Atlantis."...How does he refute?

"They are reading into shadows on the wall what they want to imagine the real world to be like. Needless to say, there is no reason to suspect that such common motifs as boats, circles, and spirals have anything to do with Atlantis."

My response to this review... 'It's crap.'

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

My response to this review... 'The Documentary is crap.'

Fixed that for you.

[GT/CS]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

In the first paragraph- ".. filmmakers’ own ego-trips...," "...they portray a cast of lunatics, obsessives, and frauds are actually respected and careful scholars..."

Not the best foot to start out on as an honest review.

---

I digress... "...Of course, Atlantis isn’t historical any more than The Walking Dead..." & "...By the time they are done, there is less connection between Plato’s Atlantis and the imagined original than between The Walking Dead and the nineteenth century Caribbean zombi that in a roundabout way inspired it..."

He was correct here- "The second hour of the documentary returns to Freund’s efforts around Gibraltar for some expensive underwater photography, and it pairs this effort with Montexano’s efforts to interpret petroglyphs of boats, spirals, and circles into evidence of Atlantis."...How does he refute?

"They are reading into shadows on the wall what they want to imagine the real world to be like. Needless to say, there is no reason to suspect that such common motifs as boats, circles, and spirals have anything to do with Atlantis."

My response to this review... 'It's crap.'

Why is it crap?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

You know nothing of my conceptions, sir.

Since your response to the question:

Originally Posted by p0lka

What is atlantis?

Was:

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Glib much, time waster?

And:

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

You've never heard of Atlantis...really?

And you post here regularly...?

I guess that's sarcasm I'm detecting?

That would appear to be nobody's fault but your own.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

In the first paragraph- ".. filmmakers’ own ego-trips...," "...they portray a cast of lunatics, obsessives, and frauds are actually respected and careful scholars..."

Not the best foot to start out on as an honest review.

---

I digress... "...Of course, Atlantis isn’t historical any more than The Walking Dead..." & "...By the time they are done, there is less connection between Plato’s Atlantis and the imagined original than between The Walking Dead and the nineteenth century Caribbean zombi that in a roundabout way inspired it..."

He was correct here- "The second hour of the documentary returns to Freund’s efforts around Gibraltar for some expensive underwater photography, and it pairs this effort with Montexano’s efforts to interpret petroglyphs of boats, spirals, and circles into evidence of Atlantis."...How does he refute?

"They are reading into shadows on the wall what they want to imagine the real world to be like. Needless to say, there is no reason to suspect that such common motifs as boats, circles, and spirals have anything to do with Atlantis."

My response to this review... 'It's crap.'

Which part of it is factually incorrect?

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Thank you for your thoughts, all of them.

1. To symbolize it being 'wiped' away...?

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

*Objection* Speculation.

*Objection* Irony.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by novaphile

Fixed that for you.

Speak only for yourself, sir.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by GT/CS

Why is it crap?

Because personal attacks aren't arguments.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by abaddon

Which part of it is factually incorrect?

Well, for starters, he made comparisons to The Walking Dead...

You can't compare ANYTHING to The Walking Dead, because its pure awesome and incomparable.

[King of the Americas]

Originally Posted by Mojo

*Objection* Irony.

Irony isn't a valid objection.

Also, the petroglyphs showing a wiped away Atlantis were connected to the site by date and geography. Moreover, it was not my speculation.

You've raised an unwarranted objection, after the courtroom emptied.

Better luck next time.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

That's funny.

"You've directed fiction, so you are no longer qualified to make documentaries."

*Seriously, that's NOT an argument against the findings presented here.

On the other hand, "you've never heard of James Cameron? He's responsible for "Avatar," the movie" is not a good argument in favour of them. I suspect that that was the point that fromdownunder was making.

[Mojo]

Originally Posted by King of the Americas

Also, the petroglyphs showing a wiped away Atlantis were connected to the site by date and geography.

Ancient cup and ring marks are common all over Europe, and similar marks appear all over the world.